How safe is a safe? (Madrid)

Over the next day or two I'll be posting a bit about my trip to Madrid, which was fantastic and highly enjoyable, but I'd better get this bit over with first.

I've noted all the comments about safety in Madrid and thought that as long as people are careful and streetwise and use common sense, then there shouldn't be too many problems. But I took note of what people had said and thought I would rent the safe in our hotel room - the hotel being a nice four star establishment - for a deposit of 2.000 Pts and a daily rental of 300 Pts. A steal (Note: wrong word to use, Anchovy!) I thought! So to be careful we put all our valuables in it, just in case a masked gang of armed and highly trained bandits attacked the ten of us in a precisely timed ambush in the centre of the Plaza Mayor.

As it happened, this was not the case and we were able to walk everywhere with not a hint of menace in the air. Nothing untoward whatsoever on the streets, just a nice ambience and people having a good time. Our problems came after a rather heavy Saturday night, when we rolled in in the early hours of Sunday morning. When we dragged ourselves out of bed at around 10.30 am we knew we had hangovers, but despite rubbing our eyes over and over again, the same scene was in front of them.

In the space where the safe had been, there was now just four pathetic little screw holes! Someone had opened the door to our room, which had one of those sophisticated key card locks (and which the manager told us had only been opened by ourselves only on three occasions since our arrival the previous day) and wrenched the thing off the wall, out the wardrobe and out the hotel (or maybe not out of the hotel, given my suspicions of an inside job!).

Inside was a fair bit of cash (we tend to push the boat out a bit when we go away on a jolly boys and girls outing!), our train tickets, car keys and house keys, car CD player bit that goes on the front of it thingy to deter thieves from stealing it (!), residence permits, driving licences, three credit cards, a Corte Ingles store card etc etc.

The reason I'm putting this here is NOT to deter anyone from having a nice holiday in Madrid. This could have happened in my house, anywhere - it just happened to be in one of the great cities in the world. No, it's because I want to help anybody that may be in the same situation in future, although to be fair, I don't think it can be a regular occurence, as those safes weigh a ton! But all the same, people get robbed and think before it happens that it won't happen to them. It could, you know and when it does, don't be in the pathetic situation we found ourselves in. Prepare for the worst, even though there is only a tiny chance you may be in our shoes (they didn't take those.......my wife's sunglasses went though, but they are prescription lenses and so we spent the rest of the time looking for a suspicious person wearing sunglasses, carrying an extremely heavy bag and bumping into things!)

Write down a list of the credit card numbers and the telephone numbers you must call to cancel them, so you can ring them immediately. Write down travel ticket numbers to try and help you get replacements if necessary. We spent ages trying to obtain these numbers and there was a forty minute window of opportunity after the Corte Ingles store opened for anybody to use our charge card for example before we managed to cancel it. We were totally unprepared and now we'll know for next time (Oh, be careful what you say - don't tempt fate!!).

If you are unfortunate,I can tell you that the police in Madrid are brilliant. They came within minutes, took us to the police station to make a denuncia, which we did as soon as we got there. They took us back to the hotel. Came and took fingerprints the next day and spent a time actively investigating the theft. They were kind, sympathetic and even apologetic that this had happened. A very impressive service indeed.

So, don't worry about it and let it spoil your holiday. Do prepare for the "just in case" and it will save a lot of hassle. The stuff is insured and it has to be put down to experience and in our case it just means a lot of running round and fighting Spanish paperwork again to replace the documentation. Ah well, no pain - no gain. We STILL had a great time!!

I am flabbergasted at your misfortune!

Your post is not clear as to when the safe may have been taken. Did it occur while you were out for the evening and you didn’t discover it till the morning or did the thieves enter your room while you were sleeping/recovering from your night out?

I have to say, Sol, that knowing that the safe was only a couple of feet from my head (in the wardrobe, though we can't remember if the sliding door was open or closed when we returned - it WAS a REALLY good evening!) I have to assume it happened between 8.30 pm and when we returned, which according to the gadget that they have for recording the times when people go in and out the room, was about 3.30 am. (My thumping head told me it was later than that, but there you go!)

Incidentally, this machine can tell you when a different card is used to open the door, as it records the time and also who opened it i.e. a different code for different people - 00 for the guest's card, 06 for the maid's, 08 for the maintenance man etc.

Oh and yes, I forgot to add that the room was on the sixth floor and only a window overlooking a sheer drop outside. Nobody but Spiderman could have got in that way! And I KNOW that the door was locked when we went out, as anybody who stays at hotels will know themselves that you always double check that the door is closed properly, don't you?

Ah, yes! Only three RECORDED entries into the room all using your card code. Can you say, all together now, INSIDE JOB!

Have you heard anything from the Madrid police since?

What day/date did this happen?

I can see myself trying to do a trans-atlantic document reconstruction, let alone trying to make myself understood to the local authorities.

Ah-ha! It's Inspector Clou-SOL of the French Sùreté! (Don't know if you've seen those Pink Panther films with Peter Sellers!)

Just happened this weekend (3rd / 4th Feb) so a bit early for any word from the policy, if any will be coming. It would be nice to think that that all the documents could be found and returned to save us the endless trips to the authorities to replace them! The hotel is going to fax me an insurance claim form and we'll wait and see.

We were pretty low key about all this in the hotel lobby and public places and spoke in hushed tones when we talked with the manager etc, as there was no point in making a fuss. We thought we were very discreet in view of what was an embarrassing situation for the hotel, and an annoying hassle and loss of precious time for us on our short trip. So it made me laugh when we checked out yesterday and he said that he had waived the charge for the safe rental (we had initially paid 2.600 Pts on arrival) but only gave me back 1.900 Pts or so, because he charged me for two beers and bottle of water from the mini bar!! Great PR, don't you think?

What a sense of humor you have in the face of adversity! You really made me laugh!

Did either the authorities or the hotel indicate to you if this has happened before at that hotel? A routine occurance?

I wonder what made you a target? What signals did you give that said you were worth bothering with?

When he waived the safe fee, perhaps you could have indicated to him you would waive denouncing the thieves if only you got back your documents (from him or his cohorts).

Would really liked to have seen his reaction!

Why were you trying to be so low-key when in the lobby? If I recall, you first raised the inside-job possibility?

Actually, all kinds of questions come to mind but I don't want to monopolize you or this thread.

It's really heck to be so transparent! I was trying to do my best Columbo impersonation.

Inspector Clou-SOL (Ret.)
French Sùreté

Anchovy, what horrible luck! What is the name of this hotel? I hope it all gets straightened out quickly!

This is a horrifying tale! Please tell us the name of the hotel, because it is clearly an inside job of major proportions. Do they have security cameras? You sound relatively calm about the whole thing...

I think the hotel should be 100% responsible, and then some.

Would you mind sharing the name of this hotel with us?

Thanks for your concern! Like I said, I don't want people to be alarmist about this, as my sole intention is to stress the need to be prepared in case anything similar happens to you, NOT to say that this sort of thing is commonplace.

Everything can be replaced and my first pleasant surprise happened this morning, when I went along to the local cop shop in Estepona and amplified my denuncia, as I had forgotten to mention in the original denuncia the keys for house and car, a pair of glasses, my wife's social security card....all stuff that you think about later, but necessary to include in the report for the insurance company to pay out for these articles. Anyway, the denuncia was made within ten minutes of arriving there and the best bit was that on enquiring about how to start replacing the residence permits I was told that all I needed was copies of the denuncia, fill in an application form and bring in three photos. After that it would be issued very quickly. Hurrah!

Why was I so discreet in the lobby? I work in an insurance agency and we act for a few different insurers. Occasionally, someone isn't happy about the time taken by an insurance company to fix their car, for example. What the client doesn't know is that 99% of claims are handled well and efficiently, (on a Spanish time scale that is!) and whilst his or her claim is taking a bit longer, there is nothing worse than a customer ranting and raving about what a useless company they are insured with, when new customers are fidgeting comfortably in their seats, just about to take out a policy with the company being criticised (bear in mind we are BROKERS and as such just middle men....we offer a superb service, blah blah.....sorry, got carried away!).

I also believe that the manager was genuinely shocked and worried that some sort of sophisticated electronic device may have been used to gain access. I may just be easily taken in or naive, but I thought he was genuine and although I wanted to yell at him to have a long hard look at his staff, I thought it unfair to worry any guests within earshot.

The time for recriminations will come later. A time and a place for everything? I hope you will forgive me for not divulging the name of the hotel, but to be hit with a possible libel suit is something I could do without, if allegations go unproved. Suffice to say that it is a 4 star establishment south of the river. If anybody wishes to e-mail me asking if it was the hotel they are booked in to, I will be pleased to tell them if it is not. Love the mac, ClouSOL!

Oh yes, forgot to say that the reason I think I was singled out was that on arrival I had checked everyone in and then allocated the rooms, then i came down a couple of minutes later and asked for a safe. Maybe if someone was listening they could think that as leader of the expedition maybe I had other people's stuff in my safe, or money for tickets to shows etc.

They were half right, as people had given me money for the soccer match tickets and a bit extra for a shortfall on rail tickets. Normally we won't keep much cash in a room anyway, but there was about 65.000 Pts on this occasion and noted this amount in the denuncia. And then when I told my friends this after making the denuncia, they said almost together "Surely you mean 295.000 Pts??" I suppose I'm just one of those honest people you come across here and there!!

[This message has been edited by MadridMan (edited 02-07-2001).]

What an awful thing to have happen - credit to you for maintaining a sense of humor thou I can imagine you were gritting your teeth during the entire discussison with the hotel manager. Must agree with Inspector Clue-Sol, an inside job it definately was. Hope everything gets sorted out for you and the rest of your group ...

Anchovy Front, you are truly a leader in all senses. I hope you get a positive response for all your troubles. Certainly the hotel should compensate you in many ways. Once, at a convention in D.C., my friend's purse was stolen right from a meeting room. Turns out it was lifted by the 'security' person (aka 'rent a copy'). He confessed, and they had him on video anyway. The hotel was soooooo apologetic. They were going to replace my friend's money even if the young man didn't cough it up. Let us know how this all turns out. Can you at least tell us if the hotel is part of a chain, and if it is a Spanish chain or international? I don't see anything wrong with telling a story that is true about a place and saying you suspect an inside job.... hardly libel.

Thanks Puna! You were right about the gritted teeth bit!

To avoid any worried speculation about the hotel in question, here's another clue which should reassure most people who have booked up for a future visit! The name is Hotel something, the something being the name of a European city, not connected with Spain!

No prizes for guessing and no answers given either!!

AF

You continue to amaze me with your positive attitude. I, for one, would find it hard to emulate you in a similar situation.

I take your statement of not wanting to be an alarmist at face value, particularlily in light of your reaction to the incident. However, I am alarmed and am wondering at the wisdom of our forthcoming trip (we leave for Madrid in 20 days).

Although your loss was not insubstantial (65.000 pts. = approx. US$370.00 at current rates), it’s the hassle of replacing all the documents that is so troublesome and time consuming. Now I don’t want to be alarmist and I don’t know the value of documents on the secondary market, but is identity theft a problem in Espana as it is purported to be in the US?

Yes, I’m sure your discretion in the lobby pleased the hotel management and you are the best judge as to how to handle that aspect of the incident. However, had I been a guest at the hotel at the same time as you, I would have liked to know what had happened!

The manager may very well have been genuinely shocked. Would that have also been the case if he saw someone walking past the front desk with the safe under his arm?

I don’t know what the laws on libel are there and though the laws in the US vary from state to state, truth is an affirmative defense against a claim of libel (just another hassle to deal with). Again, your discretion may have served you well. Just a side comment, the truth of the matter asserted is NOT (or wasn’t) a defense against libel in the UK.

Your perception as to why you were targeted seems valid to me and goes to buttress your initial conclusion of an inside job.

I applaud your resistance to inflate your loss. I feel like Diogenes and can finally put this darn light down!

I really don’t want to start a discussion about the cause/effect relationship of socio-economic factors on crime but can you tell what the current unemployment rate is in Espana? Madrid?

I’ll e-mail you when we get to the Costa del Sol. Perhaps we can meet for a drink.

Best to you.

Inspector Clou-SOL (Ret.)
French Sùreté

Anchovy:
I'm not a lawyer, but conventional wisdom holds that your statements are not libelous if you are telling the truth. If true that your stuff was stolen in a particular hotel, why would it be libelous for you to say so? Don't newspapers normally report such crimes, complete with names, places and dates? And hasn't the management already conceded the truth of the event by refunding some of your money?
Cantabene

I take your point re libel, Cantabene. But I'll hold off naming it if you don't mind, as I haven't been paid out by their insurance company yet and until I do.......! You never know who's looking at this! I remember mentioning Restaurante El Churrasco when we were going to Cordoba and the owner himself pops up to put me right about whether we having hedgehogs or sea urchins!!

The manager only actually refunded me the 600 Pts rental fee and 2.000 Pts deposit for the safe, although it wouldn't have surprised me if he'd deducted a fraction of the first day's hire, because it wasn't stolen until after we'd gone out for the night!!

Anyway, I am a bit anxious about causing people to worry about their holidays in Spain. (Sol, see my e-mail!) It was the same on the board after that long thread about different people's bad experiences. In my opinion, if you are a victim, you are very unlucky and unfortunate. During my weekend, I saw THOUSANDS of tourists and just a handful only will have had a bad experience.

It is a fact of life that some crime does occur throughout each and every city in the world. Prevention is not necessarily a cure, but certainly being prepared for the "just in case" scenario will save people a lot of upset and more importantly time, which on any holiday is usually at a premium. We want to enjoy the trip, not make endless calls trying to find out credit card numbers, who to contact if the passport is lost, not knowing which train ticket serial numbers and seats they were etc. That is what I am trying to get across to everybody. Act like a Boy Scout - BE PREPARED.

I assume everybody has travel insurance - in my case it is the hotel's policy which will pay out. Stuff can be replaced, but time can't. Of course I was annoyed (to put it mildly!) but ranting and raving in my room for a few minutes, after discovering it had happened wasn't going to get the items back, although it did make me feel better!! (I have to say that it was quite comical! We were both nursing bad heads after waking up and when my wife looked in the wardrobe, she stood there for a few seconds before asking me where the safe was. I looked at her as if she was still a bit merry from the vino before staring at four holes where screws had previously been and then springing naked out of the bed shaking my fists at the walls and ceiling! If anyone has ever seen John Cleese in Fawlty Towers......!!)

So get on with it, put it to the back of your mind, get your replacement money transferred to you, organise your tickets, then get on with having a good time. Plenty of time to think about it later, but don't let the b***ers ruin your fun. Don't let them have that satisfaction. It won't put me off......I CAN'T WAIT TO GET BACK TO MADRID!!

Yikes! What a story. Very glad, though, that you were not robbed of the irreplaceables--your vacation and memories.

Your points about having all credit card, passport, airline ticket, etc numbers written down is a critical one for anyone traveling anywhere. But this works only if your list itself is not among what is stolen. I have a little trick as a hedge against that, for whatever it's worth. I email vital information to myself at my YAHOO! address (any address that allows you remote access will do). It's also not a bad idea to leave all that information with someone back home.

What does everyone think of placing one of those incredibly loud motion-sensitive alarms inside the safe as an additional precaution?

I just got home from Madrid last night, and came online to tell everyone how safe I felt. And then,, I read this horrible post! What an awful experience! We had a safe in our hotel, but it was permently attached to the room, guess it could have been ripped out if someone wanted to, but if you don't want to carry your valuables with you all day, what other choice do you have? Anyway, while I was there with my sister, I never felt like we were in danger. We walked the streets at all hours of the night, and just enjoyed the many people. The feeling of tranquility was overwhelming, although we still were cautious and only carried a minimum of money (the rest was in the hotel SAFE!) lucky us, that it wasn't stolen! The taxi drivers were always friendly to us, and nobody tried to rip us off (which was a relief). I'd printed the official taxi schedule from these postings so i knew what the approximate fares should have been.I'm going back in 5 weeks and can't wait. I miss Spain already!

Hi SandyS. I'm glad you had a great time. So did we and can't wait for our next trip to Madrid. You are so right about the atmosphere on the streets. We didn't find it threatening - more fun and exhilarating.

If a safe is there, you have to take advantage of it, don't you? I'm sure our experience is pretty much a one off and if I stayed at a hotel tomorrow with a safe I'd do the same thing again, except I'd have my list of numbers all ready in my pocket, JUST IN CASE! I would imagine the insurance cover the hotels have is pretty standard, in this case, they cover up to 300.000 Pts (although I'm pretty sure that a nicely worded letter from your lawyer would make the hotel pay up for anything above this amount!). So if anything does happen, at least you know it's not the end of the world and you will get it back.

A good idea, Aphra, the e-mail to yourself. It would make a good back up, although a good old fashioned list (NOT in the safe or in your wallet or bag!) would be my first method, as time is most important in the case of credit cards going missing. Don't know about the alarm, though - I'd probably get thrown out of the hotel for annoying everyone each time I forgot it was there!

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but just to finish this one off I thought I would let you know that nearly five months to the day, I have just been paid out for the losses we incurred. Some (most??) things simply do not happen as quickly as we would all hope in Spain and this has been one of them!

It has been one hell of a struggle to get my money and to give you one example of how pig-headed and stubborn this insurance company has been, how about this..... They were not happy or willing to pay out for the replacement train tickets to get us back from Madrid to Malaga because the credit card slip that was used as the receipt for the new tickets was in the name of my friend, who had kindly paid for them with his card and we reimbursed him once we got back home! They couldn't seem to realise that we couldn't use our cards as they had been stolen!

Anyway, at the end of the day, after a lot of shouting, threatening, ranting and raving in the hotel lobby this weekend the manager gave me the cash, which I accepted, even though it wasn't quite what I was claiming for. The next stage would have had to have been a denuncia against the hotel, who would have denounced the insurance company and it would have dragged on forever!

After speaking to the manager of the hotel for a while, it became obvious that he had passed on all the correspondence I'd sent him to the insurers, who were the real villains in this. In fact, out of a total of 140.000 Ptas of cash and stuff we lost, the insurers would pay the hotel no more than 100.000 Ptas, which reduced to 50.000 Ptas after the excess, (or franquicia in Spanish, or deductible (?) in American - sorry, Miss Madrid - I'm only kidding ). This reduced by a further 25.000 Ptas for "depreciation" (car keys, house keys, spectacles??), so out of the 120.000 Ptas I accepted, the hotel actually paid 95.000 Ptas and the hotel's insurers only paid out 25.000 Ptas. The manager told me they were changing insurers at the expiry of the present policy and I only just managed to stop myself from selling him a new policy

So a line is drawn under a bizarre affair, although it wasn't as bizarre as some of the sights witnessed in a thoroughly enjoyable Gay Pride parade on Saturday....

Hi:

Just a couple of facts. Like in many places, police here are very fast with public relations (specially with tourists) but they don't care a damm for your things. I have experience through taking a couple of friends to the police station after having been pickpocketed.

Secondly, I have suffered a similar steel in Havanna, and since, I prefer to deposit the money in the Hotel's Front Desk safe if there is one. This way they give you a receipt, and they are responsible for yous money no matter what happens to their safe.

Ignacio