Día de la Hispanidad 2004 and the US flag

Today is Día de la Hispanidad, our national day.

We have had a parade like every year. The last three years a small group of US marines were invited to participate in the parade as a conmemoration of 11-S and because USA is a NATO ally.

Last year our current president (who was the main opposition leader) stay sit when US flag was passing by the authorities, as a complain for Iraq's War. Although he says that the country is not to blame for its government's decissions, he intentionally offended US ambassador.

This year our "intelligent" government decided that inviting US troops was not a good idea, and they have invited instead french troops of Leclerk's Division to conmemorate Paris freeing from the nazis.

3,000 spaniards (some of those exiled from Franco's regime) participated in the liberation of Paris. Leclerk's Division generals ordered them to enter Paris to receive the shots of the snipers, thus, the amount of killed in that battle among our countrymen was very high.

Now our government invite frenchs to the parade of our national festivity. Those frenchs who intentionally send our troops to die at nazis' hands, those frenchs who supported Morocco when El Perejil island was invaded a couple of years ago. And they kick out the US troops who were the main contributors to the liberation of France, and the troops of a country that was key for the peaceful resolution of El Perejil conflict.

And our Defense Minister says that the reason is that under Aznar's government we were subordinated and at kness to USA...

May someone explain me all this non-sense?

Fernando

I didn't realise that this Dia de la Hispanidad was an annual event. Oddly, I'd heard a report that 'Spanish Fascists' were taking part i.e. Francoist troops who fought in WW2.

Not exactly. In the homage to the fallen, there were two veterans: one who fought on the republican side of the Spanish Civil War, and one who fought in the Blue Division (francoist who fought against Stalin's troops on the german side in WWII).

It is something new introduced by this government, and I think it is not out of place. In fact, I believe it is appropiate to have veterans of the wars in which Spain took part in the homage to the fallen.

Fernando

It's just that the BBC reported the Brigada Azul soldiers as being 'Spanish Fascists' something I found quite shocking. They also said it had raised quite a bit of controversy...I assume that these soldiers were pro-Nazi?

here's the link explaining the situation as per BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3738684.stm

One must know who he reads

Let me explain under my personal point of view.

That is obviously an exageration. Llamazares is the leader of Izquierda Unida (United Leftists) which is composed by communist parties.

The Blue Division was formed after Franco won the Spanish Civil War by volunteer "falangistas" (extreme rightists supporters of Franco) who wanted to fight Rusia's communism (because of their opposite ideology and due to Rusia's support to the republican side in the Spanish Civil War). They fought as supporters of germans only on the russian (Leningrad) theater and only against russians. They were integrated in the Wermacht (german army).

I guess Llamazares is somewhat nostalgic of Stalin to compare the Blue Division with nazis... They were extreme-rightists and sympathized with Hitler, but they didn't committed a genocide (in fact, thousands of jews saved their lives comming to Spain and Franco tolerated it). But they were the winners of the Civil War, and forced into exile the political opposition (those who remained were imprisoned, and a minority were executed).

Some historians argue that the Blue Division was a smart move of Franco. At the same time he send out of Spain the most extremist of his supporters, and lowered the pressure Hitler was putting on Spain to enter the War (WWII).

I think that the presence of a republican veteran who fought against Hitler's nazis to liberate Paris and the presence of a Blue Division veteran who fought against Stalin's communists should be equally honored. Death spaniards are death spaniards after all, no matter their political alleigance.

I guess that "Catalan Left Party" is ERC, which is the most extremist of catalonian nationalists. They are a extreme-left party that seeks independence of Catalonia, so it is no surprise that she said that stupidity... as if one country couldn't celebrate a National Day. Can you imagine a political party of your own countries saying that celebrating a national day is a lack of tolerance to plurality???

Fernando

Fernando,

I posted the link because Bricamb seemed a at a bit of a loss as to what the article was saying ... today was my work day from h**l and I didn't have tiem to even begin to explain - but I new you would go into more detail That should probably read I knew you would suppliment with 'a more informative explanation' than the article offered

There's a lot of sides to the question - and being at heart a passifist and bloody strong liberal, one side of me says make-up and go on - but there is also the part of me that cries at the 'unfairness' of history in the case of the Civil War ....

Thanks for leaping in and expounding on the link for everone ....

W

Thanks to you Wendy for droping and giving us the link

You always appear to point out something smart

In this issue, as in many others, there are different points of view. But we must be objective. I've no special loving for one side or the other of the Civil War. One of my grandfathers was imprisoned in a Franco's concentration camp for years, while the other was pursued by republicans to kill him. Fortunately both survived the Civil War, born my parents who born me

Fernando

I wonder if the French division that entered Paris, to "free the city," would have ever been there had it not been for the thousands of American & British soldiers who died to get the Allies to Paris in the first place. Face it! The Nazis were on the run, and abandoning the city. It was more show than go, and the Spanish soldiers became the "shock troops" who would pay the price with their lives. As usual, the French lived up to their billing as cowards, by letting someone else do all the dirty work.

Apparently your top man don't know his history too well... or has "conveniently" rewritten it like most revisionists do.

Actually, we weren't slighted, the people of Spain were the ones who were insulted by his rediculous actions. It was Spaniards that were sacrificed in Paris, not Americans. Here in the US, we could care less. He honored the very people that sent Spaniards in to be butchered. A real genius he is.

Wolf

Thank you for your interpretation of the story Fernando. I suppose perspectives on the Second World War differ, but what struck me about the Blue Division was that they volunteered to fight with Nazi Germany and so must have believed in the ideals Hitler was preaching....it just seems odd that one of their lot should be taking part in military parade a modern democratic European country.

I agree, the 'Division Azul' was pro-nazi.
Or "extremist right who fought with Germany against Stalin". That's a nice euphenism for NAZI.
Face it: N A Z I.

I wonder if he even connected the fact that the Blues fought with Nazis. He doesn't seem to be the brightest bulb in the string. As Fernando points out, he does things that are totally out of sync with anyone who should be President of a nation.

But I will say one thing. Those that survived the eastern front against the Russians were very fortunate. It was a debacle from a German perspective. Hitler was an utter fool when it came to dealing with that issue, and millions died because of it, and many because of poor clothing that wasn't suited to the winter weather they faced.

Wolf

In case you are referring to ZApatero, this has been (I believe) a personal decision of the Defence minister, who is there just because he has got a lot of support in the PSOE and is an important "baron" with control of Castilla-La Mancha region.

He is one of the two people in the PSOE who are important regional "barons" who have developed a "career" in the left while their thoughts (in case they have) have gone to the right and are much more rightists than some PP people (like Gallardón, who is now fighting for the power in Madrid PP with ultra-rightist Aguirre). The other, and even more rightist is Ibarra (What a shame, both Aguirre and Ibarra have basque surnames... ).

And both, Ibarra and Bono are more or less the same incompetent, in a tie with Trujillo, former collaborator of Ibarra.

Zapatero allows a lot of autonomy to his ministers and he only acts when they dissent form each other (like in budget) or in ideological matters.

I convene that it's a shame that fredom fighters are homaged along with fascists-nazis in a "democratic" state. Nazis wouldn't. Not for "national unity", they know very well what each one fighted for.

My two grandfathers were on each side in the war, and not because of this I forget who was right and who was with the "coup-ists". Reconciliation, understood as peace between factions and a wish to build united, does not mean forgetting, and much less forgiving their evil actions and giving the prize of an homage. It's an ultrage to law and order to put these people together like equals. I don't think the French or the German would do that with an SS and a german resistant (there were), or a "resistance" fighter and a french colaborationist.

As for the USA flag, the fact that it's honoured two or three years doesn't mean that it gains the right to be always there. And I don't think it should be; do you in the USA have the spanish flag with spanish soldiers in the parades?

Actually, I thought the participation of French Military was to recognize the recent accord that allows Spanish Troops to pursue ETA Terrorists into France and giving French Troops the same access into Spain.

Fernando writes: Did the U.S. Marine Corps Color Guard 'dip' the Colors in salute as they passed Spain's head of State? I think not! This tradition goes back to the early 20th Century - Theodore Roosevelt was President of the U.S. He insisted that the Colors never be dipped for a Foreign Head of State.

It is carried on each time the U.S. participates in the Olympics. The Athlete who has the honor of carrying the U.S. Flag never dips the colors in salute as he or she passes in review.

As a U.S. Citizen: I think Rodriguez Zapatero's action was perfectly correct.

Eddie's comment about the incclusion of the French due to the strong working relationship b/w the French and Spanish law enforcement organizations working together on anti-terrorism efforts makes a lot of sense.

Discounting all the other possible scenarios - I really think Edie might have hit on a very plausible line of reasoning .....

Eddie,

Of course it's quite alright for them to choose to honor those that they wish. Nobody has argued against that point.

As for our flag never dipping, that's a fact, and as an ex-military man myself, I full heartedly support this, and hope it never changes.

But, none of that has anything to do with honoring another nation's flag. It is a courtesy extended by every civilized nation in the world, and the US stands in recognition. If you think his "statement" was "acceptable" that's fine, but I think it was totally rude and arrogant on his part.

Of course we will still stand for the Spanish flag in ceremonies. It's the proper thing to do. Why should we throw out a protocol that's a courtesy for one boorish politician who probably won't be around for a second term.

Wolf

The English government also had an "Agreement" with the German Nazis. That was at Munich in 1938.

Yeah, the Division Azul helped Hitler`s imperial dream. Yeah, that is disgusting. But honest, I don`t think the anti-nazi partisans were nothing to write home about. Most of them were communists, and fought the nazis following instructions from Moscow. Only after 1941 the communists were commanded to fight nazism...when Hitler attacked the Soviet Union, and not before.
These partisans would have been regarded as terrorists, under the Geneva convention, were not for the infinite hatred that Hitler and his ideas aroused everywhere. They did ugly things during the war, and ever uglier things in the short aftermath.
The Division Azul supported Hitler, the French Resistance helped Stalin. So what?
I may sound cynic, but really, I am sick of ceremonies which try to present war as something honourable or praiseworthy at all. I hate parades: I will start to respect Spanish patriotism when they make doctors and teachers parade, instead of war tanks. As to the ridiculous farce that Zapatero organized, I don`t think he represents me at all, so I don`t mind that he insults the American nation: that`s his problem, not mine.

Well, I believe not all the French Resistance was comunists, and they fought the germans from the moment they invaded France, not only in 1941.

As for the bad things, if your opponent, who is much stronger doesn't follow the rules, obviously you are not to follow them. Ask the Gestapo and the SS (not the Waffen SS, which were pretty different).

And Zapatero didn't insult anybody. The fact that the US flag is no longer included is just fine. A homage because of the suffering of the 11-S, that went on for a couple of years because Aznar was a brownoser doesn't mean that the country has to keep on honouring the US flag forever. That would sound like submitting our independence or something.

Anyway, I don't know if Zapatero would have had to stand up when the US flag passed by or not, nor wether he actually did or not, but anyway, he wasn't the president then, so he did it as a peasant or as a congressman or as a leader of the opposition, but never as a president of Spain.

NOw he is the president, and he would not have brought the US flag, but if for some reason he had done it it may be he would have stood up because it was not his personal or party beliefs he was representing but the spanish state.

I'm going to try and stay out of this discussion but I do think Cristobo made a great comment when he wrote

I for one agree 1000%!

I know not all of them were commies, but most of them indeed were. The communists were the best fighters due to their discipline and precise organization. In any case, who cares? I guess others were French patriots, gaullists, but that doesn`t change much, in my view. French flag is stained with blood, since the very days of 1789 revolution and the horrors of La Vendée,
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1234936/posts
to the involvement in African tribal wars of today. What is the idea? Should French soldiers proudly parade? Being proud of WHAT, exactly? When facing equal enemies they were defeated, when facing unarmed populations, they commited huge butcheries. You, Ignacio, who despise the nation-state as much as I do, sure understand my point. France is not better than Spain, in that respect.
In the aftermath of the war, the partisans were not facing any almighty enemy: they took revenge over defenceless civilians, often for political or personal reasons.
Again, I don`t understand the need for parades or celebrations. Do you want reconciliation? Do you want to learn from the mistakes of the past? OK then, instead of dignifying the nazis, rather debunk the glorious myths of the allies. THAT would be fair and accurate.

I wasn't going to intervene, but:

True, I despise the nation-state and am by no means patriot in the "glorious" sense of the word. However, if they killed my family and send me to misery, and torture my friends, you may be sure I would do something. In fact, I would do pretty much!

I never go to parades of any kind, specially military, thay have no meaning to me. Specially positive meaning. And I can see no pride in being a soldier. It's just (when it has to come, in case it's ever justified) a sad duty to kill or be killed.

Puna: I wouldn't go to a doctor's or teacher's parade, because I think parades are unimportant and disturbing, I dislike them. Besides, doctors and teachers have to do their duty as professionally and with as much dedication as any other, so I see no reason for honouring them extra, in case you are meaning this.

But I mostly agree with the ultimate meaning of the prhrase, to be proud of the productive, social, and sacrified parts of the society who make positive things. Although I am not absoultely for not having armies... at least unilaterally, it would be great to be able to do it like with the nukes, but with a working agreement.

Now I'm going to go really really far off the subject when I try to explain some of the thinking behind my comment.

I'm no fan of parades either - and certainly not the military kind. But my take on parades is a bit different -

I spent a lot of years in Hawaii where we had things like the Kamahamaha Day Parade - in honor of the last king of Hawaii (yes - Hawaii is the only state in the US that ever had a monarchy - end of history lesson ). The parade was beautiful in the island tradition - flower bedecked paua riders and their horses, obviously flowers covering the floats - but usually most everyone watching would get involved - lots of flower leis, music, dance, food & wine and aloha spirit ...

And I gues I sort of equated the thought of people who did postive things for society with my memories of "oarades" ....

First of all my compliments to you Ignacio in the knowledge of the English language and of course there are other whom I envy for being so fluent. How I wish I could express myself like that in the Spanish language.
Some arguments are just amazing but then it will not stop and one of you, especially you Ingnacio likes to just practice by never taking a stand for anything! If there ever was a parade for people that did not believe in any type of parade where would you then go with you're reply?. I have come to the conclusion that you must suffer a lot. Surely you must be in a lot of pain and feel guilty of the many things that are wrong in you're country. Oh just look at you're history.You should be able to blame someone for you're unhappy status, oops I've forget lets blame the US. Oh my, bad people there, children running around with guns, people eating nothing but fast food, taking over the world and making every body suffer. And so it goes. I will now with pride finish my Glass of Rioja and then go to bed with lots of pride in my heart for having worked hard and earning MONEY. Being proud to be an American (by choice!)Proud of my family,my City and my friends. But most of all I dont have to belittle any body, or any Country. I will vote for what I believe and then I will stand behind whatever happens. I make a difference in my daily life and I like a good challenge anytime and respect any person that takes a stand and beliefs in something, but please give me a break this is getting unreal. I will continue to look at the Webcam in Galicia and listen to Top Radio, but anything else is not worthy of my time any more. Cheers and a good night to all.

Ignacio:
I am like Mecky, I am having trouble trying to figure out what it is that you stand for. You have made it clear, on more than one occasion that you hate the United States. That is fine, because around the world many people do. Like them, you have the right to hate us.

We are the ones that built this country into one of the most powerful economic engines on the face of the earth. It is our costitutional form of govt. that allowed that to happen. If we seem to be aggressive and ready for war at the drop of a hat, it is because we love our peace and life style, and refuse to allow anyone to take it away from us.

I think if you could put your hatered for the US aside and come with an open mind for a few months visit, I think you would either not want to leave or, at the very least see why we as Americans are the way we are.

Had the trajic events of Sept. 11 never happened I am one of many, who feel that the Presidency of GWB would have been a rather noneventful four years.

We in the US have many events where we all put our differeces aside and get together in many cities thoughout the US. Take for example the ho hum city of Indianapolis, Indiana. Every year for the month of May that whole city stands still while they put on a show that is known around the world. People come from all over to party and celebrate the oldest and largest single day sporting event in the world, the Indianapolis 500 mile race. Then there is New Orleans, now there is a city that knows how to get along and have a party. Go there in Feb. some time if you don't have a good time it is nobodys fault but yours.

We as Americans have our differences with each other. But you let some two bit hood like Bin Laden come along and you see how fast we put those differences aside and unite as one.

Since the days of the late 1940s with President Harry Truman, the US forign policy was one of containment of the problem. Take for example Korea and Viet Nam. Now the policy is, "where ever the problem is based, attack it there don't let it get to our soil." I think you will notice that after the Iraq invasion in 2003 that Khadafi of Lybia, and Assad of Syria started to tow the line. Khadafi allowed inspectors to enter and even told them where the weapons were located. Assad announced that he would no longer allow terrorist training camps to be based in Syria.

You are right war is not pretty, and there are many things we could do with the money spent on the military. But how long would we maintain our peace and still have the money to do those other things without the military to enforce the peace?

I will sign this post as:
The Peace loving Desert Red Neck with an assualt rifle.

Mecky,

I am a very good humored person. There are things I consider wrong, and I get sad or frustrated when I think of them but, fortunately, I have many, many things to do along the day and don't spend endless hours thinking of the bad things around the world. I must admit, however, that there have been periods of several months that I simply had to give off watching TV because I couldn't stand such uniformity in the trash they offered in their biased news (under PP), and used only radio, internet, and newsapers. I am a happy person, I am proud of myself, and my life has a sense cause I am in peace with my conscience by being always honest to myself and the rest.

However, your post read a bit sour, I believe. I hope you are not.

Thanks for your compliment on my English. I think I have a good level, but I still look up a lot of words in the online dictionary.

Desert dweller,

It's not so difficult to guess what I am for. Peace, Social-capitalism, no borders (with the necessary time not with floods of inmigration, but by integrating countries) Culture, Justice, Respect to minorities, Respect of individual rights, the end of chauvinism of any kind, etc..

Yes, that's the worst. You americans get together as a pack when there is a foreign menace, like a flock, but after all, this is only because some haws throw you to a war, and then you don't have another chance. Only after you are defeated or have won, destroying the enemy you use self-criticism.

About the treatment given to Libya or Syria, apart from possible considerations on it's ethics, abusing of the weak and imposing your rules only stimulates the less weak to be stronger. It will be nice to see how the USA does the same to Iran or Korea, who have nukes. The sheriff-desperado system doesn't work with people who have real guns.

This has only showed the international community that if you want to be free from USA power you need to have WMD. A great step for peace!

Didn't forget to mention something you stand for Ignacio?

I think that you fill your posts with elevated words while you state in your opinions just the opposite.

To say that you stand for the respect of minorities while arguing that it is a side-effect that non-nationalist basques have to leave their home is, at least, quite surrealist.

Or it is just that you forgot the second part of the statement? Yes, I think that should be...

..., social-capitalism, no borders (with the necessary time not with floods of inmigration, but by integrating countries) Culture, Justice, Respect to minorities, Respect of individual rights, the end of chauvinism of any kind, etc.. as long as they think alike me and don't support the idea of Spain as a nation.

Correct!

Fernando

That's Ok Ignacio,

We have a presidential candidate this year who is just as unfathomable as you when it comes to trying to understand what he stands for. If you lived in the U.S., you undoubtably, really, really, undoubtably, would be a Democrat. More power to you! As long as you disliked anything America stood for you'd feel right at home.

We are alike in the fact that we both are tired of TV and get most of our information from the radio and internet, but very seldom the newspaper.

Fernando:

... :p

Gazpacho:

I would be a democrat? Perhaps. However, I have some (few) points in common with republicans and a lot of them with Nader.

I think I would be a "Naderian" more than a democrat.

Ignacio,
How did you convince yourself that you know how America or Americans act ? You sound absolutely foolish. Stick to babbling on and on about your utopian dream state and blaming the US for every little thing that happens to you or anyone else in the world. Nader wouldn't want you either.

Colink, how can you dare guess what Nader would take or leave? You sound absolutely foolish.

Liked that?

What americans do or the USA do, is sadly known all over the world. We have you in every news report, in the media, in films, ..., in fact, the difficult would be NOT to know you. :p

By the way, I will keep on speaking on what I feel like no matter what poor you say. Keep on braying.

Let's remember the topic here:

Día de la Hispanidad 2004 and the US flag in this, the "(Spanish) Political Commentary" forum. Thanks!

A man who will not stand for something, will fall for anything. Ignacio the only thing you stand for is to hate the USA, or as it is known to you EEUU. Good luck buddy, and the next time you look up and see a Spanish fighter jet flying overhead, stop and ask yourself what country built that plane. If it is an FA-18 Hornet, it rolled off the assembly line in St. Louis, Missouri, USA.

I do not think I need to say what I stand for, since this is not y trial (I believe ), but anyway, I did in one of the trheads. It's not my fault if you ddn't read it. :p

I don't like USA, I never hided it. IMO it has, excellent things mixed with terrible ones, that are right now the reason of many of the bad things that go wrong in the WORLD re ecology, hunger, war, for example. And these and no other are the reasons why I dislike it. Had them Portugal or China I would hate them, not the USA.

Until now, I didn't know those planes were a gift from the USA. I thought we had bougt them at an exhorbitant price, with which hundreds of shools and hopitals could have been constructed and mantained.

Anyway, soon we´ll have our own planes: eurofighter.

Ignacio,

There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that you are anti-US. The issue about whether or not the American military forces should march in your parade really doesn't enter the picture. The fact is, we weren't invited, and to most of us, we don't really care.

Our troops wouldn't have been marching there so you could "honor us," but so that our troops could honor your country, and what they stand for. Apparently that was lost in the "anti-American" sentiment that was expressed so aptly by your new political leaders, and you, in your posts.

But what intrigues me beyond that point is how you talk about the "new EU air force," and the new planes that they are developing. Who is developing them? My guess is it would be a French/German consortium which will actually be capitlistic, and everyone else would be left out. That means Spain is going to pay through the nose for all those wonderful pieces of equipment that they probably won't even have pilots training to fly.

As for the "price you pay" for your planes from the US, our government has absorbed the lions share of the cost for every damned one of them over the years, to help your nation become stronger. Yet, you'd sit here and talk about the cost.

Granted, the money spent on military defense is enormous for everyone. It has been for decades here in the US. The biggest problem is, we spent the vast majority of this money in protecting half of Europe from the other half. Now... since you all decided to get along by kissing the French and German posteriors, you want to dismiss us like we were the "unwanted step children."

It galds me to think that people are that far removed from the reality that it wasn't all that long ago that the Soviet Union could have brought you all to your knees with one attack, which would have them take control of all of Europe, had it not been for the US.

As for your political affiliations in the US, I don't believe for one moment you'd vote for either of our major parties or Nader. I believe you'd vote for the candidates running on the American Communist ticket, because they expound the same theories that you do.

But, to each their own.

In a way, I'm glad we weren't invited to march in your parade. I see no reason for the US to honor a government leader that is as ignorant about world affairs, and more willing to kiss German and French posteriors as much as yours is. He's going to end up being the laughing stock of EU, when he realizes that he's going to be nothing more than a "mistress" to the two powers he's sucking up to. They'll dump him as soon as they get everything out of him they can. Count on it.

Wolf

Wolf, you amaze me,

I never thought I'd hear myself say this, and I didn't think you felt as strongly as I feel about the capitalist vs, socialist issue, but I think you're being a little harsh on Ignacio. I say this not so much to get a long with our Spanish friends, but because Ignacio's views are held by so many Americans here too.

I think all of us forget a fair amount of history, and only a few of us spend energy in learning about what makes our country so powerful. And fewer of us take the time to read about other countries, or like you and I, had the opportunity to directly experience, other cultures and try to understand why they aren't very good.

Having said this, I still can't believe that Ignacio thinks that the U.S. is the cause of hunger, war, and general poor economics all over the world. I suppose it's just human nature to look at others faults and avoid serious, critical introspective. You and I must admit though, that Ignacio is an intelligent person indicated by how well he articulates his ideas. Perhaps my hope lies that he will some day stumble upon the truth.

Ignacio: This is a perfect example of how you try to change the subject when you corner yourself. No one said anything about the planes being a gift or purchased. What was said was where they were built.Then you twist it around and start talking about the money could have been spent on schools or hospitals. Then you talk about standing for open borders, then you don't want immigration. Your toilet training must have been a very tramatic experiance in your life.

Americans freak out when they find that most of the civilized world is (in comparison) LIBERAL. That's right, Socialism and anarchy aren't dirty words. Oh no! Spaniards are all wacky pinkos!

Next we can make fun of the European notion that the United States is a nation of imperialist chickenhawks harboring borderline facist ideals.

You know, for fun.

Hi,

Wolf, I wanted to add to your first post about the french soldiers that marched in the parade simbolizing the 'liberation of paris,' that the french actually *attacked* the allied troops when they hit the beaches on the north coast of Africa, denying still that the USA and Brittish troops were really fighting for the liberation of Europe from the Nazi's. It was just off the coast of Morocco that the french navy was obliterated. They fought for 6 days, killing each other, until french troops ceased their fire.

I bring this up to 'buttress' Wolf's point that it was not french troops that liberated paris, it was AMERICAN and BRITTISH troops that bled and died for france's unthankful liberation. And to think, the memorials in northern france are being defaced by derelict teenagers spray-painting the gravesites.

All to say, the MARINES that did not march in the parade were better off because what they stand for cannot be appreciated by Z or his administration. Besides, I pity the fool that would get into a MARINE's face to tell him to get out of Madrid, or that it's 'his' fault that the 11M even ocurred.

But the funniest point still, Jose Bono, for those of you who do not know him, is basically a glorified mayor that has been appointed as the *DEFENCE MINISTER* of an important world country. Those who have spent any time in Castilla-La Mancha know who he is... I'd like to see him chew nails with any *real* defense minister.

Very nice posts, Wolf, and I totally agree!

andrew

Regarding that battle at Morocco or Argelia:

-What the Allied forces actually did was invading a NEUTRAL country . France, after having been invaded by Germany, became neutral, and the govrnment of Vichy was gemarnophile, just as the spanish.

-Even Switzerland could have repelled an invasion on their country, being neutral. More France, or Spain, whose governments were germanophile.

As you can see in the quote I submit, from this website , after some negotiations, the french (Vichy GOvernment) units eagerly changed sides, despite their government allignment. And beside, the Free France forces (not depending of Vichy) were fighting shoulder to shoulder with the allied all the war long.

About Bono, I agree, except for he was not a major but a Comunidad Autónoma president (what in the USA would be a State). But he does not have the stature of an statesman at all.

Ignacio,

Excuse me? The French were "neutral" at the time we invaded at Normandy? Africa? If my history books are right, the Vichy Government was a puppet government established to support the Nazi point of view, not an elected government like the one that was in exile in England.

If you believe we should "respect that right," I have absolutely no choice but believe that you should "respect the right" of the Spanish Government to usurp any authority from the Basques, and turn the area into a "puppet state" because they'd be "neutral" in their belief.

I think you'd better read your history books again, and take a good look at how two-faced the comments you're making about the political environments really are. You're certainly missing out on reality with an awful lot of the challenges you're making.

As for Switzerland's "neutrality," I thought that has pretty well been tossed aside as an argument after their admission that they were in league with the Nazis, sharing the wealth of Jews, and in fact turning refugees over to the Nazis, after taking everything they had.

You really amaze me at times. You pick such weak arguments to base your position on. In english, we call that "grasping at straws."

In reference to the parade. I repeat. I personally am glad we didn't march in it. It would have been an insult to our own nation had we been involved. Of course our troops would have marched to honor the people, but not your existing government officials.

Revising history for a moment. I wonder what percentage of Spaniards who are over 50 years of age, would say now, that they would have welcomed an invasion of Allied troops around 1943, had they known that the Franco regime would have controlled your nation for so long. I have a hunch the number would be far larger than you'd ever care to admit. Of course, in retrospect, people who take your point of view would callously dismiss this as "another unwarranted agression by the American Capitalist/Imperialist forces" who unfairly attacked the Nazis, and poor Japanese who were only trying to "unite their neighbors" for their own good.

I'm exasperated! Sorry!

Wolf

Ha, ha, ha.

Well, I am not surprised you are exasperated, Wolf. To be true, I think that an intervention of the USA to overthrow Franco's regime would have been an unnecessary act of war.

And... however, I would have been happy with it.

What I mean is:

-I don't want my neighbour the soldier to come and live in my house as a general rule. In fact, I can be fed up of his living in my house.

-But, if it happens that a burglar comes and he stucks his rifle in the burglar *ss, then I am glad he is there in that ocasion, no matter that I believe he shouldn't live there.

As a general rule, I don't think any country should intervene in other country's internal policy, unless there is genocide, and under UN control. Full stop.

An however, if that rule is not respected, all the best if they kick those I believe are bad guys than the good guys, but that is a matter of opinion and likes.

I am still researching the Granada info, because here we didn't get the info they were invaded by Cuba at all. In fact, those cubans et al, were "military advisors" (euphemism for allied troops) called by the legal government of the island, and the General GOvernor is just a civil servant depending of the UK, as a member of teh Commonwealth.

I suppose that, had Canada (or Australia) Government called for Cuban troops (in a highly unprobable scenario), you would have invaded Canada all the same, just because some english bureaucrat said your aid was needed against that "invasion".

Well, about the French:

When you landed at Normandy, france was divided in two:

- A Northern/western territory, controlled by the germans, without military forces but for german ones, whose real fighters (french, allied) were in Britain and the french colonies.

- A puppet (yes) but theoretically neutral government with capital in Vichy, that controlled Central and southeast France and Northern Africa.

Of course any troops debarking in Normandy, wouldn't have found french hostile troops, and were glad to be liberated.

And, however, it was perfetly understandable that the French in Northern Africa, under the control of Vichy, reacted defending themselves, be it as neutrals whose neutrality has been violated (theoretically this was the reason), or just as a puppet of the germans (the real reason).

Anyway, both reasons were good enough, be neutral or be german ally (Vichy France puppet government).

An the fact that, disobeying orders, soon after, the French not only ceased opposition but also joined the allies proves that, in spite of a tight discipline, the soldiers loyalty was with their country, and the allies.

This is why I say that blaming soldiers who only obbeyed orders and that, as soon as they could not only surrendered, but, instead, joined happily the allies, is not fair.

Another matter would be the "supposed" neutrality of the "puppets". Of course, Germany could have declare all of the conquered countries, with german troops, neutral, and it would have been very difficult to have attacked Dermany,. except with aeroplanes, so it's logical that that pretended neutrality wouldn't have worked in that war.

But what I am trying to explain is that, be that true or not, the french army's duty was to resist. Any "mutiny" (good as it was) not always is done the first hour or the first day of encounter with the troops you'd like to join. Previously, agreements and meetings of the involved high rank officials should have to take place, because they could be prosecuted as traitors. It was kind of a "coup d'Etat", no matter that I am glad they did. It was disobeying orders and joining the enemy. That's not easy. But they did.

It took them some days, OK. And then they joined and fought along with the allies, which is what they longed to do.

Ignacio,

I repeat. The government of Granada was overthrown in a coup by communist rebels which were supported and augmented by Cuban troops who were out of uniform, to make it appear it was strictly Granadans. They overthrew a duly elected government, not a military or dictatorship. The new Communist government was not elected by the people, and therefore was not legitimate.

You can talk until you're blue in the face about this issue, and no matter how much lipstick you put on that pig, it's never going to win a beauty contest. Sorry!

Actually, I'm glad the Allies never took down Franco. We'd be even worse tyrants in your eyes today.

Wolf

Ignacio, I am sure that if you research enough of your left wing books you will find one that says the US was the agressor in Grenada and that Cuba was only there to rescue the people from those terrible American Yankee Imperialist dogs.

Your going to have to come to gripps with the fact that Marx is dead, and so is his ideal of a Communist Utopia.

We had party at our house here in Phoenix, Arizona over the weekend of the people that were there, a total of ten people had plans to visit Spain over the next few months. We have all been to Spain before. They were all aware that the attitude of the Spanish people toward that Americans. Then I showed them the post where you gave the results of a survey, and the mood suddenly changed. Then the political drawing from El Pais from last Thursday where the man was upset and said "four more years." Then several of the articles from El Pais. None were aware that the hostilities had escalted to the levels that it is now. I showed them several of your other posts. They all wrote down this web cite and others that I have bookmarked. Before the evening adjourned most agreed that now is not the time for an American to be visiting Europe. Particularly Spain, France, and Germany.

Lets just stop and say that all ten of these people cancel their trips to Spain. That will be about $50,000 or about 35,000 euros of lost revenue for the Spanish businessman. While that is not a lot when one thinks of the proportion for one shop owner or one hotel owner to spread that out over the entire Spanish tourist industry. You have to look at all to the US and the thousands of canceled trips. The US tourist to Spain in the average year is about 250,000 people per year. If 25% of those were to cancel because of the hostile attitude towards Americans now figureing $5000 per person that calculates to 62,500 less tourist and a total of $12,500,000 of lost American tourist dollars. The entire Spanish tourist industry would feel the loss. If the percentage is higher you do the math for the lost revenue.

Ignacio, if you truly beleive the way you do, and your Spanish newspapers are showing roughly the same feelings that you do, then this is one "unsophisticated brute" that will be going else where for his vacation this coming year. Thank you for adviseing me as to the prevailing attitude and for looking out for mine and my wife's personal safty. I owe you a debt of gratitude.

The "Unsophisticated Brute" from Arizona.

The problem, desert dweller, is that neither Ignacio nor El País care if american tourists come to Spain or not (in fact, I would say that Ignacio is probably happy with your decission).

But what for the majority of us who don't think like Ignacio or El País journalists?

A great majority of spaniards welcome american tourists (though it is certain that a majority don't like Bush policies).

And anyway, a very very small minority would be rush with an american for being american. Violent attitude is almost unthinkable.

It's a pitty to hear such things, but is the price we have to pay for voting an irresponsible, antiamerican and unprepared government. Side-effects of an inmature democracy.

Fernando

Fernando, this could prove to be a serious loss of revenue for Spain . The numbers that I quoted are considered to be very low. I have had many great times in Spain. Bearing in mind the way the situation is now, I think it would be unwise to spend my time where I am unwelcome. I am one of many Americans that are truly sorry that it has come to this.

I know it desert, but there is nothing I can do about it (apart of what I'm already doing).

It is your decission and I understand it (though I don't share it).

The problem is that no matter how many tourists we loose, no matter how many contracts (as for example that of the VI Fleet's maintainance), and no matter the rest of the consequences, people will keep on being missinformed and contaminated by antiamerican propaganda.

You should see how Bush is being ridiculized in our public (payed by the state) TV channels, every-single-day.

Fernando

Desert Dweller,

I totally agree with you. Lamentably that is what it will be happening to Spain, a tourist industry.

Unfortunately, all the Spaniards will be paying, voters or not of the Psoe, the results of these manifest attitudes of president ZP - his loud speaker El País and Ser radio- . I know by air civil employees that since May Usa – Spain flights do not go as full as they went before. One day we will lose tourists, then contracts,

I understand your decisions about not coming to spain.You Americans do what many Spanish people we do, not to touring in holidays to País Vasco for evident reasons.

Desert Dweller, in spite of Ignacio figures, we are many who neither we read El País paper nor listen to Ser radio , and we reject the anti-American policies of ZP (although some ministers have just said that they want to get closer to Bush!! – “relación eficaz y constructiva”) and the harassement to the catholic church this government is willing to carry out. You must know ZP is supported by the extreme catalan nationalistic and separatist left.

Spain is not an old democracy as the US is. Last December it was the 25th anniversarie of our Constitution. I admire the American love for your country and your flag, values that in Spain we are trying to destroy, especially with ZP government.

Saludos.

Any brownoser around?

Well. After all, americans are a 1% to 3% of the tourists we get.

I think I am going to leave this debate for now, because I believe it's getting pretty hot for some, and I want to contribute to cool it down.

Ignacio,

You're right that the US travelers account for roughly 3 to 5% of the total number that visit Spain each year, but what you failed to state, and it's fact, is that Americans spend roughly five times as much money in Spain as other travelers, and account for around 18 to 20% of the total revenue derived from tourism.

You also failed to address the fact that the US has also been the prime purchaser of Spanish products that are shipped, and this figure has dropped off by over 40%.

You also failed to account for the fact that the number of "tourists" from other countries, who come there for a "visit," are more apt to overstay their time limits, and become a drain on the economy of Spain through crime, etc, whereas the US was not considered one of the sources of those problems.

I wish you'd take a moment to think about your answers, and research them, prior to just stating them, because you might see things just a bit differently if you did.

Wolf

Wolf, you are wasting your time. Ignacio is so poisoned with hate that he will never listen to anything that an American has to say. Did you notice that his next post first thing he did was refer to his fellow Spaniard as a brownnoser? After all we are "unsophisticated brutes."

Desert,

I can't help but believe that Ignacio isn't really as anti-American as it may sound. I wonder at times if he isn't playing devil's advocate with the intent of learning more about us.

I did notice the brown noser comment, and kind of shook my head. It was about the last thing I would have expected from him, but I suppose the fact that some Spaniards are seeing the implications of what is happening is beginning to bother him and others.

The parade issue may not seem too big in some areas, but I think it sparked a lot of issues from it, if for no other reason, than the US and Spain have been staunch allies for so long.

I just hope things can be resolved and that our nations become friends like we were. I can't think of any people in Europe outside of the UK and Spain that I'd rather have as friends.

Wolf

I tend to agree with the comment about Ignacio perhaps playing devil's advocate and I also think that Ignacio does what many of us do when we feel strongly about something - and that's to get emotional.

Over the course of at least one year, Ignacio has been an active participant on numerous subjects and like so many of the Spanish speakers (first language) here - his command of English is extremely good.

However, when we get emotional our command of our native language slides - let alone a second or third language.

I think thats something we all need to remember - perhaps it goes hand-in-hand with not taking things too personally.

Besides - if I tried to discuss some of these subjects in Spanish you would all be hysterical

If the comment about being a brownoser was directed at me never mind. Coming from whose is comming it is not an insult but the highest appreciation.

As for the parade it is really not that important. It would be an anechdote if not done by the president of a country. It can't be a good example in a country which is usually very intoxicated against the US.

It is a matter of education. The more cultivated one is, the less he care about such propaganda, which has its roots in times were the left in Spain was clandestine and received support (financial and moral) from the USSR. They have yet to mature and abandon their current ideologic line: "there is only democracy when we are in the government".

Fernando

Fernando says

IMHO, that is a statement that can (and should) be applied to the critic and analysis of many political party agendas world-wide. What a sad commentary it is ....

As I looked back on this thread, I began to realize that there was one group of Spaniards that were not honored, like they should have been, from their actions during WWII. A group of Spaniards who fought against heavy odds at Girone, and so impressed the French that they offered them their most honored military award. Instead, these soldiers, all volunteers, who took up the gauntlet against the Nazis, asked that the award not be given to them, but instead to their flag.

This battalion was called The Guernicas, and the award was given to the ikurriña, the flag of the Basques, who had fought so gallantly.

I believe they should have been represented in the parade because of their heroism. But, they weren't, while those in support of the Communists, and the Nazis, were represented.

Therein lies the problem with Spain and it's methods of dealing with the Basques. You cannot ignore them, and expect them to accept the wishes of the government.

Wolf

Wolf, believe me but the problem is not reduced to a matter of honoring the ikurriña for a battle. It would be great that to solve every feud the basques have with the rest of Spain we could honor their flag (which is already done in countless situations).

There were basques who fought on the republican side. Remember how Guernica was harrased by the Luftwaffe for example. The contrast were those basques and navarres who fought on the national side with Franco, which were known for their fierce commitment to the battle.

The same happened in WWII. As other spaniards, some basques volunteered to the Blue Legion, while others died fighting the Wehrmacht.

As an american, you must know how cruel it is a civil war. Spanish Civil War broke families and throw into battle thousands of spaniards to fight each other. Military powers (Germany, Italy and the USSR mainly) participated in the conflict as a test for their weapons and training for the WWII.

Franco's dictatorship idealized the winners (nacionales) demonizing the losers (republicanos), and in the democracy it has been just the opposite, picturing ones as members of a coup d'etat and evils, and the others as freedom fighters.

In the end nor ones or the others were "good" or "bad". Both sides had their reasons to fight, there were good people in both sides, and good people died in that war. My grandparents will tell you a handful stories to forget about both sides (prisoner camps, executions, murderings,...).

I really hope to see a day in which that conflict is seen and considered with the perspective of the history, putting aside those feelings that may rise on us based on partial stories we heard to our great-grand-parents.

Fernando

Fernando,

I agree. But is there a better way to heal old wounds than acknowledge the actions of those who served in all theaters of operation?

To be honest, I don't believe the Zapatero government wanted to honor these soldiers simply because they were Basque, and served under the ikurriña.

I believe it was a political decision made in poor taste.

But, since it wasn't my decision, and it's not my country, Zapatero and his party have the right to do whatever they think is best for the people of Spain. Even if it means slighting brave soldiers who served as bravely as those who marched in the parade.

Wolf

Yes, there were basque in both sides, but only the ones who were republicans fought under the "ikurriña", and those were never honoured, unlike the fascist that fought under the fascist red and yellow.

Well, Aznar is no other thing. His servile behaviour with Junior has ashamed the country, as much as his not being able to improve his super poor ENglish and still give pathetic clasess or interviews, his speaking spanis in Texas trying to imitate Texan-Mexican accent... (My God that was really ashaming, it would be great for a caricature show in the TV, but it WAS real!, did you see it?) or his endless phone calls to GWB until he was received, to show he had not just been used and thrown away. But he's dead in Spain and Europe and he knows it.

He´s just a frustrated dwarf with a cultivated Hitlerian appearance and Mussolini's concept of state and "liberties".

Sometimes I have to play it. It would be easy to go with the flow, but every story has two sides, and the media only show the side their owners want to show each time. I intend to give the other side's point of view.

But no, I am not doing this to learn more about you, it would be like manipulating and I wouldn't do that. Although it's true that through the debate, all of us learn many things.

No, Aznar is simply that, he likes been seen in the photos with important people, like GWB, and that's what made him get us into that d*mned war, but it's not only him. When GWB came some years ago, people were VERY ashamed of the servile behaviour od (then) Minister of Foreign Affairs Piqué, who was making kind of reverences. It was pretty commented and the photos circulated through the net.

If you say so because it's kind of an insult, I regret, the spanish (in slang, from spain) translation, which is what I meant would be "pelota" (like "ball"), which is not considered an insult, but a lesser remark on an attitude. I guess "brownnoser" is a too graphic adjective, with stronger connotations for you.

Well, nations are not friends. In the old times, the USA was such an uncontested power that you had to be friend wether you were friend actually or you were a little hostile. Nowadays, the economic and politic parameters are changing and, thus, countries are no longer in a block but they all express more freely their government's ideas, so alliances are changing, although not drastically.

European people and most european governments don't share and will never share the middle america ideas, we learnt to be peaceful and respectful to other countries through a terrible history and we have learnt the lesson. We will never be friends while those guys keep on be ruling the country. But I feel friendship and feel very close to the progressive americans.

I don't hate americans because americans are all kind. I don'r hate the idea that your Constitution gave of democracy, liberty et al.

I hate what América has became in spite of this, a leech that sets prices and exchange rates that allow them to keep most of the world ruined while they get richer and richer, and when their unfair behaviour is denounced, like in the OMC, they look for another way to keep up sofocating them (us), or don't sign agreements like Kyoto environmet agr., or simply look for an excuse and invade another country to steal their resources.

It's that America that I hate, not the america the "fathers of the Nation" dreamed, nor the americans who have a conscience and who cry the dead of their rogue Governments.

Ignacio,

A leech? Really? How many countries does this leech provide humanitarian aid for? How long has the rest of the world been protected by the military might of this leech? How many times did this leech have to intercede into world affairs in order to stop more violence and destruction? Also a leech needs a healthy organism in order to survive. Where would we find this?

And on a positive side, leeches are a true benefit in medicine, being able to suck infection from tissue, to allow it to become healthy again.

In a way, that's kind of what the world has always expected of us, but ridicules us between such events.

Wolf

You notice how he gets down on Aznar for talking to GWB, and coming to the US. For some unexplained reason he did not critize King Carlos and the Queen for going to Crawford, Texas and having a dinner with GWB on his ranch. I had high hopes for him for awhile. Now it is obvious that he does not want to be friends, and only wants to spew out his hatred.

The Monarchy can NEVER be critiziced.

The King and Queen's visit with Bush was obviously orchestrated to show there's still a bond between the US and Spain, despite the political ravings of Zapatero, who will more than likely be in the unemployment line after the next election.

Whether or not Americans "like" Zapatero, or Spaniards "like" Bush doesn't matter. What does matter is that our two nations be on friendly terms, regardless of what nit wit is in office.

You may fire when ready Gridley!

Wolf

we learnt to be peaceful and respectful to other countries through a terrible history and we have learnt the lesson.- Ignacio

Really ? The entire European continent just suddenly came to this conclusion all at the same time? Exactly what day and time did this mass epiphany occur ? I guess it was sometime between the end of WWII and 3 o'clock this afternoon.

Colink
I think it was sometime between the beginning of WWII and the moment 50 million fellow Eurpeans lied dead.
You see, I come from a VERY conservative family, but they never told me anything good about war. I guess when you have gone through it, and seen your relatives and neighbours shot or tortured, war loses its glamour.

Who said anything about war being glamorous ? I just didn't know an entire continent decided the same thing at the same time. If you and Iggy really think there will never be another war in Europe, you're dreaming. This little fantasy of a borderless land where everyone gets along (even Germany) is laughable. I know, I know, the US is evil......blah blah blah

Hmmm.

Seems like someone might have forgot to tell the Yugoslavians. Not really so many left to tell.

And Cristobo. What does being conservative have to do with liking/disliking war? And yeah, I know, the U.S. is evil.

There is no doubt in anyones mind that we Americans are all a bunch of low life "unsophisticated Brutes." Should there be any doubt just ask our Marx loving, terrorist loving, friend. He can tell you that all the world's ills are the fault of America. And he would have no qualms about doing so. But let me make one thing clear, I am as conservative as any American Republican ever though of being, and I hate war and everything about it. However there are times when war is the only answer. It should always be used as a last resort after all other means of the political process has been negotiated. But when those efforts have failed to bring about a resolution to the dispute, then let no holds be barred. If there is anyone who is so niave as to think that the European Union is going to last more than 25 years let that person come forward because I have a real estate deal of a life time for him. Germany is already wanting to void the arms embargo that was put on China in 1989. You have all of those countries that have centuries of conflict and wars. Now they are going to band together and become one borderless United States of Europe. They are already trying to dictate to each other their indiviual criminal code. When one is not doing well economically, that one will ignor trade treaties and go on his own. Witness France and Germany trading with Iraq for their own self interest when there were clearly trade sanctions in place against Iraq put in place by the UN.Of coarse guess which country Mr Chirac was the head honcho from who was speaking out the loudest against getting rid of Hussein. France had a vested interest in not wanting anything to happen to Saddam. Look at how the French economy took a dive when Saddam left town. Oh this is going to me more fun, during the next few years, than watching a stand up comic in Las Vegas. No comic script writer would be able to write something like what is going to be coming from Madrid, Paris, Berlin, Rome, and Vienna. Twenty five countries all looking out for their own interest, and two or three play ground bullies. Any bets on who will drop the first bomb. WWIII here it comes.

Desert Dweller
Who knows about the future? Sure it is disappointing to see the old, mean, little struggles for a bit more of power inside this old, mean, little continent. But think of one thing, no matter how stupid and greedy our leaders are, they know for sure that the European Union has improved the economy of us all. Borders for trade and workers will never be arisen again, I would bet for that, and that is the key thing in the EU union. All the rest, the Constitution and all that stuff, is just empty speeches for bureaucrats.
Funny that you make that bet about the future of the EU. On this shore, I heard more than once that the US is over, this time, and that the strenth of the euro over the dollar is just the first sign of disaster for an economy which has relied on deficit and loans for too long. Too many credit cards, too expensive wars, too much ENRON.
I am not any expert on economy, so I would not be able to stand these ideas. In any case, if I have to make a bet for the next twenty years, it would be China. As simple as that.

Cristobo,

The American economy may be facing rocky times, but rest assured, when the smoke and the dust settles, our ability to be free thinking capitalists always seems to right our ship, and get us back up to speed, unlike the infighting that is already heavily taking it's toll on EU despite the rhetoric that things are "going great."

The fact is, if the US economy is in the toilet, so is most of the world's, and you'd have to point out when the last time the stock market in other countries outside the US has actually driven the economy here and abroad. The majority of the stock exchanges hinge on the US market and everyone pretty well concedes that.

Since we are resourceful, we will rebound. But can each individual state within EU rebound effectively from the grip the Germans and French have on them, without breaking from EU in some small ways?

What always gets me is "how good it's going" in Spain, yet buying a home is almost impossible for the average family with two workers. Here in the US, it's a reality. People can afford, and do buy homes, and realize their dreams.

Of course, in a utopian society of "socialistic governments" people wouldn't have to own homes. The government would own them for them.

Kind of like the nice two room apartments that families of six to seven occupied in Moscow when the good old Soviet Union was prospering for the "good of mankind."

Ain't that something to look forward to? A two room apartment, probably cold water at that, for six or seven people....

Not my cup of tea. I prefer the 4,000 sq.ft. opulence my wife and I enjoyed when we raised our three kids, along with the massive fenced in yard where our cocker spaniel roamed free, the apple tree, the lilacs, and the lofty pines... It was our own little park.

Wolf

Wolf,

We truly live in paradise. Gosh it's funny how greedy corporations provide the highest standard of living the world has ever known.

Cristobo: We have been hearing coments about our impending doom for years here in the US. As per your coment about China, I would not debate that with you. They are a rising economic power. Concrete, we used to order a load today for three day out delivery. It is in such short supply now that it could take two weeks. Reason being so much is being shipped out to China.

One of the things that we gage a strong economy on is like Wolf and Gazpacho mentioned, individual home ownership. Here in the US as has been mentioned on this board before we live in single family dwellings as opposed to large apartment type buildings. Obviously that is not the case for 100% of the Ameircan population. For the most part it is, and you can drive down the street and tell which houses are owner occupied, and which ones are renter occupied. We as Americans are constantly being critized for not being "Socialist/Capitalist" The idiot that makes that accusation does not either know or understand, is that the largest single "Socialist" program in the world is the US housing market. We have many gorvernment subsidized programs, so that anyone with a total household income of as little as $25,000 per year can buy a house. Obviously for $25,000 per year of income we are not talking about them buying a palace, but it is their own house. We even have one program where as, a US military veteran can get a house with no down payment. I don't know what sort of programs Spain has, if any, to help people buy their own home.

My comment about the Eurpean Union not lasting though is based on the fact that those countries have spent several centuries at each others throat now to have one central power doling out orders and directives, I just dont see long term success in it. France has always been the "fly in the ointment" with everything being "their way or the highway." Watch what I tell you when the EU comes falling down, it will be over somthing that France set off. Remember you read it here first.

DD
You have made a very good point there. Yes, I agree the Federal Government in the US has found many ways to subsidize the economy. After all, you don`t pay taxes for fuel, do you? Not to mention subsidies for farmers. I am sure those measures add up, eventually, more money in the budget than all the "ministries of social affairs" in the EU altogether.
Being it so, I plain don`t understand the arrogant contempt that Wolf often displays towards this "Soviet-like" European continent, when the state plays such an important role in American economy and society.
By the way, Wolf, I see that you still read my posts and even bother to write replies for them. It is flattering, really.
I am a bit uneasy about your hint, DD, that there are not resources enough on Earth to supply such a big consumer as China. Will the oil crisis outbreak now that the Chinese are about to drive cars instead of bycicles?
It is great that you all have such a deep faith on American capacity to overcome bad times, but faith is only that, not reasoned opinion. It may prove right, it may not. You are assuming that the future will come out to be just like past, that Europeans will fight the 30 years war again, and that the US will survive a new 29 crack. Well, maybe.
But maybe not. There is only one rule that you can take for granted in human history: nothing lasts forever.
Youngsters in our country can`t afford a homestead of their own, it`s true. But it is also true that this land, this continent, has gone through an amazing process of economic growth, faster and faster along the last fifty years. My father can still remember when our village received power supply for the first time...and only forty years later, we are all watching DVDs and communicating in English through the Web.
I am aware of European history, but I don`t think it means a thing. Punic wars, the Night of Saint Bartholomew and WWII are equally alien to us young Europeans. Things change.
There is one thing, at least, that would prevent me from living in the US, and it is lack of liberty. If I have to rely on things that I read from your fellow Americans, it is a tricky thing to say what you think in America. Apparently, the left will hang you if you ever move an inch from political correctness, and the right will send you to Guantanamo if you try to get your nail clippers into the airport.
I like American movies, but not American news channels.

Cristobo: It is not quite as bad as you make it out to be, but your point is well taken. I have cautioned some members on this board about some of the things that were said, as I know that boards like this are monitored by both law enforement and intellegence agencies. It is no problems at all to track down who is behind a post. One memeber came out last week in support of terrorism, I would not be surprised to find out he has been dragged into a Madrid police station to explain himself.

As a constitutional form of government, at two hundred years old, ours is now one of the oldest and still holding on. I dont think I know of anyone that has been sent to Cuba over nail clippers. I do know the point you are making.

Trust me on this one, I can assure you that we pay taxes on fuel. Both automotive fuel and domestic energy such as electric, propane, natural gas, and home heating oil. Trucks that use diesel for hauling goods over the road pay an additional tax. The only way around it is to produce your own energy such as windmill, solar electric or a small hydro unit for home use. I have a friend that has built a methane digester for running his own cars on methane. Only problem is he has to fill his tanks at home and the cars have been modified to run on methane only,so anything more than a half a tank from his house he cannot go. He has the emmisions checked once a year and the cars usually have very little measurable exhaust emmissions. Good for the enviorment.

Cristobo,

To be honest, I find your posts interesting, and they make me further my own research on issues. Sometimes the points you make - from your perspective - are very compelling.

Although we may disagree "quite a bit," I honestly have a lot of respect for you and your opinions. If there aren't opposing points of view for our own beliefs, we'd never find common ground for mutual understanding.

In fact, I think we could sit down for a cup of coffee and enjoy talking to each other, and would find we'd end up being friends, despite our points of view.

In fact, we'd probably end up using those points of views as a way of "jabbing each other" in a humorous way. In other words, we'd get along quite well.

Wolf

Cristobo,

Now that's a unique concept. Our government subsidizes low income families with housing in certain cases, but it's our economy that provides the money for our government not vice-versa. And when our government does decide to ease up on a taxes, it's the government that's decided to be less of a drag on our economy. They're not subsidizing anything.

Wow! That must be a socialist concept that the government subsidized the economy. Sounds like something from the media, or a press statement from the Dems.

I realize I'm jumping in late, but you know what they say..."better late than a thread without a little 'Basco." Bear with me as I respond to a few musings of note:

from Bricamb:
Don't forget that the mujahadeen were financed by the US/CIA. Not that we're any friend of islamofascism...it was the lesser of two evils. Oh, and a little-known fascist dictator was given a few $$$ by the US as well in a protracted war against its islamic fundamentalist neighbor...Just offering another reason why the azules may have fought...not as fact but as postulate.

I didn't know about the flag dipping, but as a non-military man who would die defending freedom in this country, I'm with Wolf...I believe the anthem is "long may it wave" not "long may it bow in obadence to [fill in name]."

Cristobo:
. That is one of the greatest viewpoints I've seen here or anywhere. I agree 100%.

Also, very astute explanation of French military history, as well. I will go further and say even when they were outnumbered, they found a way to lose [Agincourt]. Yet they have this misguided notion that they are major players in international geopolitics, which was only fostered by their geographic position as a defeated nation liberated by WWII 'victors.' Didnt deGaulle later speak out against America after the US bailed him and his nation out?

From Wolf about "Zeta":
...exactly. At least Aznar "sucked up" to someone worth sucking up to that had actually effected some good in the world. Let's see...Germany...quasi-responsible for WWI [Austria-Hungary and a little agreement], VERY responsible for WWII, and France...responsible for decades of bloodshed at the outset of the 19th century, and a relative no-show in WWII...

Ignacio:
...and Hitler invaded a neutral Belgium...twice...I don't see the WWII Allies having the same ideology as the Nazis...do you think the Americans were "wrong" to liberate France from a puppet government? What it eventually boils down to is whether you are pro-democracy or anti-democracy.

If you are pro-democracy, you're pro-"liberate puppet regimes." If you're anti-democracy, you probably feel that the current governments in free countries are puppets of the United States. Do you think the US invaded an occupied France with designs on empire building? Maybe they did it for the wine.

This has been an interesting thread...but I share MM's query: Isn't this supposed to be about the "Dia de la Hispanidad?" I'm starting a thread tomorrow entitled "Zapatero Leaves Americans out of New Year Celebration" just to see where it will lead in two months...You can't PAY for entertainment and thought this good! Thank you all!