the end of a brief chapter

So the deed is done. Zapatero just announced that Spain is to pull its troops out as soon as possible.

Not only does is it sickening me in a profound manner, but the removal of Spanish troops from what is now an effort to give the poor and defenseless of Iraq a chance to regain some dignity signals the end of a brief but remarkable run as an newly independent nation. From this point on Spain will now accelerate its diffusion into greater Europe.

Say want you want about the foray into Iraq. Vent your anger against the US all you want. But abandoning Iraq NOW is about the most cowardly unilateral act by a Western nation since the collaboration papers signed by Vichy France.

Hate Aznar and the PP all you want, but those old enough to have some sense of perspective know that only eight years ago, Spain was an economic backet case, with unemployment north of 20% and the poorest Western European nation on a per capita basis. Do not forget that the PSOE had twelve years to drive Spain into the depths from which it has recovered so proudly.

For a brief eight years, Spain actually stood as an independent voice in Europe, a refreshing break from the tireless self-promotion of a dying imperialist France. Ironically, the media has portrayed Aznar as Bush's lap dog. How sadly untrue. Zapatero has made it clear that he will march in step with France and Germany. No independece there, folks. But I guess in a country based largely on non-durable consumption and tourism from the "north," who cares, right? For those who think otherwise, my deepest sympathies.

And when given the chance to join the US and others in fighting or perhaps other countries, such as Japan, there solely for humanitarian reasons, Z has decided to do neither and simply abandon Iraq altogether for the skirt of France and Germany. Both pathetic and disgusting.

So its back to endless scenes of career diplomats patting each other on the back, boring speeches of how the government is meeting the people's needs, blah, blah...a collection of municipalities in old Europe. Expect frequent kow-towing to the leaders of old Europe (trust me, Spain is not in the inner circle...far from it). Might as well yank down the flag.

Independent Spain is dead! Long live Independent Spain!

I feel ashamed.

Who is going to believe us now when we give our word in international forums?

Very sad. We have gone back dozens of years, and we are now in the hands of a demagogic and populist government.

Fernando

well, my friend, if it is any consolation, my home country and home state is afflicted by the same virus. We are likely to share more in common across borders than with many "compatriots."

Such a different world...so alien.

Students of history must recognize that what we are experiencing is not without precedent. The late 1920 and early 30's were filled with debauchery and endless political blabbering. 100-120 million deaths later (hard to absorb the magnitude of such a number, isn't it), we emerged into a vastly different world.

These things happen in cycles. While the next "trough" may not happen in our lifetime, it would be naive to think the irrationality of this world can continue for much longer.

Ironically, although I question many, many aspects of their movement, it seems as though only the Muslims have a unified conviction. Their leaders are absolutely correct when they point out our weaknesses. Should we really let the momentum of a fanatic-led global jihad roll beyond intl control, these skirmishes in Iraq will seem like foreplay.

France and Germany will see hundreds of Atochas. But who in the US will give a rat's a** then?

Ever try to get in front of a moving mass? A lot easier to stop it when its moving slowly.

So...why do I feel as if we are not re-living the 1920s-1930s, but rather 711 and the story of El conde Julián?

Sheryl

Sheryl,
The folks I met Andalucia raised this very issue. Now, while I have not felt this all has been a principled and planned movement with goals of conquest, if the present momentum continues as we have been witnessing, who knows?

Almohada- (now I have a desire to put my head down...)

To tell the truth...I'm not sure what any of this means. By that I mean...

I truly did believe that there were WMD's in the country. After all, this was a man (Hussein) who used the weapons on his own people ten years earlier. But, once we found out that there weren't any, our tactic should have changed.

One fact is for sure: Americans, and I am one, do not seem to understand how to deal with the Muslim world. The Spanairds, on the other hand, have a long history with them. Perhaps, if they, the American people, were to study it, they would understand.

One other fact comes through: although the Spanairds "knew" how to deal with the "moros" 500 years ago, they don't seem to know now. Perhaps, they too need to study/ restudy their own history.

Spanish history has shown that, unfortunately, giving into the Muslims only leads to more problems. I don't like war. I don't see the point. However, we are looking at this war from a Judeo-Christian perspective...not Muslim. That's the problem.

Sheryl

P.S. Perhaps the andaluces look at the problem differently because their history is intertwined with 711 and, of course, ultimately with 1492.

I can understand Zapatero's desire to fulfill a campaign promise. Removing Spanish troops at the end of June was understandable. What I don't understand is his rush to do so because everyone, including the UN, aren't doing "exactly what he wants." He's doing exactly what his "advisors" in France and Germany are telling him to do. Its a funny thing about the Germans. It seems like about every half century they try to take over europe.

I can forgive the Spanish forces leaving but not like they intend leaving. They're opening up the door for vastly increased violence against American troops, and many will die because of it. That - I'm afraid - I cannot, and will not forgive.

Good luck to the Spanish government. You're going to need it.

TW

I agree, it is a very sad day for Spain. Pacifism has had a victory, as it had in the 1930's, one which those involved will eventually regret. Almohada is right, history is repeating itself, you do not have to be a prophet to see the ending here. Zapatero apparently had earlier given June 30th as the date for withdrawal, so now he changed his mind, unilaterally, as Almohada says.

Spain's word is now worthless.

After hearing of Spain's Sauve qui Peut retreat today, I am hardly suprised, nor am I too upset about it. Worse is yet to come. I've recently been perusing the BBCnews.com site's bulletin board regarding bin-Laden's 'truce' offer to the people of Europe. It is alarming. Well over half of the European replys enthusiatically support cutting a deal with al-Queda and leaving America alone to face this. The langauge used to describe America in these replys is incredible. I've come to realize that the US and Europe were 'traditional allies' only as long as the American checkbook was open and Stalin's Red Army was just over the horizon.

European attitudes about America are galling. How they fret over 'surviving American domination'. How arrogant. American generosity to Europeans is unmatched in all of Human history. Not only did the USA provide billions in aid to our former enemies, we sent millions of young Americans to stand guard against the Stalinists.

But that is just the tip of the iceberg for America's great sacrafice for the people of Europe. And this is the thing that infuriates me most. For over two generations, the American people, not the government, not the President, but Americans offered up their homes as nuclear targets to the Soviets to keep the peace in Europe. Americans were willing to see their cities reduced to radioactive slagheaps to keep Europe from falling under domination of the Stalinists. And now they don't trust us?

And this is how they repay us. A level of acrimony and hatred they don't hold for the al-Queda murders of March 11th or the repugnent Saddam Hussein. Suit yourselves, people of Spain and of Europe. But take my advice and teach your children Arabic. They'll need it to plead with thier eventual masters.

I think that many of the Irakies the Spanish worked with will be sad to see them go as they were apparently liked by the local people, more so than the Americans or the British. However, I do not think that Mr Zapatero could do otherwise than to proceed with his withdrawal of troops, something he'd placed at the top of his election manifesto. That's democracy after all. Sadly I think the terrorists will, however, consider this a major victory.

Bla Bla Bla... The rant is coming. MM will have a lot of work today. Poor MM!

Deibid,

I don't think anyone has posted a rant on this subject. But then again, if stating facts and concerns is a "rant," I suppose you're right.

But rest assured, as an American taxpayer/voter, and one who would have to send his own sons off to war, I would say at this point in time, I wouldn't be in favor of the US lifting one finger to help the Spanish government if they should fall under attack by an outside force.

We're just a little too busy with our own problems to consider the needs of Spain above our own. I'd suggest they take the issue up with the UN for aid.

Wolf

OK, Wolf. No problem, I know there is STILL no rant. I just see it comming soon.
And about your opinion, it's OK, don't worry, I don't mind. I don't want the US to come to our aid, the US NEVER have come to our aid anyway.
Remember, we are in Spain, not France.

Just be respectful of others, please, and realize that stating your views is a way to share ideas - and won't necessarily convince others that yours are "the best" or the most correct.

Saludos, MadridMan

MadridMan ALL SPAIN message board? ha, that's funny. Better to say.... ALL AMERICAN message board, and an all American political commentary, Spain and Spanish people bashing thread.

I read the original statement with interest here...
<< Say want you want about the foray into Iraq. Vent your anger against the US all you want. But abandoning Iraq NOW is about the most cowardly unilateral act by a Western nation since the collaboration papers signed by Vichy France. >>

Now of course we can agree or disagree with the policy concerned. But to start (again) accusing the Spanish of cowardice... I would like to ask this question. If a major superpower were to pull out of (for instance) Lebannon or Somalia after the going got tough, would that also be regarded as cowardice? (just for the record I don't regard it as cowardice. Misguided or correct - I'm not sure. Just a political decision at the time). Let's try not to get into insults here? - maybe this is the desired effect of our scheming enemies????

Kinda getting fed up of this Spanish bashing half the facts commentary.
1. If this is now a humanitarian mission why will the US government not hand over control to the UN?
2.Spain is withdrawing it's troops from Iraq, not because the going got tough or because of the events of 11 Marc, but because it was an election pledge of the democratically elected leader.
3.Cowardice, Zappatero has said on many occasions that the troops will stay if the UN takes control of the operation and if not the troop numbers in Afghanistan will be increased, he supports the war against terrorism, the invasion of Iraq was not part of the war on terrorism.
4.Please folks, I support everyone's right to an opinion but some of the comments posted in this and other conversations have held very barely disguised racist and islamophobic messages, which I do not believe are worthy of a board of this nature.

Filbert,
I appreciate the post. However imperfectly, I try to careful with my choice of words. I have never accused Spain, the nation or her people, of being cowards. Not at all. However, policies or acts are another matter. What I am questioning from the moment Z opened his mouth as prime-minister elect, are his pronoucements, his policy proposals, and his actions. And nothing personal, for I do not know him intimately.

But to your examples. If the UN goes in on a peace keeping mission and gets overwhelmed, say Bosnia, and that peacekeeping mission withdraws, then I would say the original plan might have been considered misguided/insufficient/naive. However, while the UN leaves, there can be no mistaking that those who revealed their allegiances during the UN stay are now in grave danger and that those whose lived improved under peace will have their lives worsened. Only those who thrive in chaos and anarchy, mainly the criminals and fanatics will benefit. And these folks have no intention of nor incentive in building a stable nation state.

So is withdraw cowardice? Well, it depends. It depends in what information was revealed. I think that in Iraq, if you believe that the US and Allies have as an objective the theft of Iraqi oil, which I would find laughable, then you might think that withdrawing Spanish troops from such a mercenary mission is not only not cowardice, but prudent.

If you think that the US and allies are fighting to give Iraq a chance to become a true nation state, such as existed pre-Saddam, then you might view the fighting with "insurgents" as an attempt to fend off violent elements so that public works projects can be rebuilt, markets re-established, roads built, etc. If so, then troop withdrawl without any other effort to replace military means, would be cowardly to the issue at hand.

If you think that fighting Al-Qaeda funded eleemnts in Iraq is important to keep the future of the world in the hands of peace lovign people rather than in the hands of terrorists, then troop withdrawl after the heat gets turned on, is a cowardly act.

If say Sri Lanka were to contribute 500 humanitarian and contruction workers to rebuild Iraqi hospitals. And say, they were being killed or kidnapped, no, I would not consider the policy to withdraw them as cowardly. Not at all. Their mission is to save lives and build as civilians.

However, for countries who committed troops to building a safe stable Iraq, knowing full well that to protect the 20 million peaceful Iraqis might mean battling a large contigent of fanatics who would perfer violence and hatred as a way of life, then yes, pulling out troops mid-battle is the utmost definition of cowardice. It would have better not to have ever put forward troops in the first place. But if that is the case, why on earth are any Spanish troops sent abroad?? Puzzling, isn't it?

Peacekeeping is not the same as being an unarmed security guard. In fact, it is a misnomer, as Bosnia proved. When fired upon and or when innocents are being slaughtered in front of your eyes, it must be in all troops minds that peace MAKING is truly their role. On this note, the past if filled with American acts of cowardice. Most notably the bothcing of the cease fire agreement after the Gul War in which Bush the edler and Stormin Norman committing an act of stupidity buy permitting the deafeted Iraqis to strafe and massacre the Kurds. US troops stood by in disbelief, but could do nothing. That was stupidity and cowardice.

But to be consistent, Spain's lawmakers should now call for the completely dismatling of their independent armed forces. Surely billions in high tech equipment are not to be sued on ETA or the Spanish people, right? And being folded into Europe, Spain need only contribute troops and cash, right?

Finally, your last point. I agree with you. One of the goals of terror is to break alliances and cause infighting. That such attempts would be tried is not at all surprising. But to have it succeed so easily and with near complicity within days of a new leader taking office? It is almost too good to be true. You want conspiracy? Who knows, maybe Z mad a backroom deal with Al-Q??

But yes, the inten was to separate Spain from the US. And the overall goal is to isolate the US from the world. But while this makes great headlines and grat conversation in the leftist safes of the world, it also shows how these policies relfect a profound ignorance about the US and the American people. Isolate us and I guarantee you we will get stronger and nastier, as gone will be that veneer of naivete.

Just a quick note of thanks for the commitment of those Spaniards that served - and especially those that paid the ultimate sacrifice towards a true peace. If successful, and a new democratic strata takes hold in the middle east, their effort won't be erased by those that come down on the foolish side of history.

Salud!

Fup

There are many ways to interpret Spain's decision to withdraw troops from Iraq, though one seems to prevail here. But what is the rest of the world to make of the following:
1. Bin Laden demanded that the US withdraw its troops from Saudi Arabia.
2. The US withdrew its troops from Saudi Arabia.
A cowardly Vichy-France style collaboration? Of course the cause and effect relationship is more complex, in this as in other cases. Please keep that in mind before attacking the new Spanish government's position.

OBL had demanded that we leave Saudi Arabia for 10 years. It wasn't until the SAUDI's wanted us out that we left. And even then, the bases there were redundent with the infrastucture now in Iraq.

It doesn't matter what and why the Spanish SAY they flipped their election - Either way, the terrorists think they had a victory. That makes them feel that mass-murder works, and all of the rationalization in the world won't change that. All elections are now a real potential target.....

(By the way, the same goes for the pull-out. You can call them names all you want - but if you're doing it - while doing what they want - they win.)

Fup

Te quiero, España.

I agree with Almohada and Fernando. Me, as many Spaniards, we are really sad for the unexpected decision of Zp to pull out the Spanish troops from Irak. Spain is going to be an isolated country as we were before . ZP is doing something wrong when fundamentalist and terrorists (Eta and Al Q), are applauding what is happening in Spain now.

I wonder what is behind this quick, coward and unexpected decision of ZP. What are the reasons?

I invite you to read this article publised yesterday on El Mundo about “Los agujeros negros del 11-M” (Black holes on 11-M) . It seems that there have been a group of policemen, close to PSOE party who gave wrong information to the PP government after the train attacks. 12 pages in Spanish, use a translator.

How do you know that ETA is happy? I can't understand it. There has not been any comunicate from ETA. On top of that, ETA has suffered important arrests and is nearly dismantled by police actions.
Do you really think ETA is happy?
I repeat: I can't understand why you say this.

While I understand the decission of calling back the troops (though I don't share it) I think Zapatero has choosen the worst way to retire our troops from Iraq.

First: No matter you disagree with past governments of your country, you must comply with their agreements or try to minimize the effects of their breaking.

Second: A UN representative has stated that a new UN resolution is possible and very probable. Zapatero has not given the chance to US and the UN to launch a new resolution (contrary to what he said he wanted for the troops to stay).

Third: It seems Zapatero has been quick to announce the retirement of the troops because he agreed with Al-Sadr (the terrorist chii leader) an inmunity for spanish troops. To our shame. This is covering our troops with a taint of cowardice, as well as reaching agreements with terrorists instead of a) The local legal leaders, b) our allies, and c) our troops polish and american command.

Fourth: Zapatero has called back the troops without even informing the governments of El Salvador, Honduras, Dominican Republic and Nicaragua, who sent troops to Iraq thanks to spanish and american logistical support, and who will have a bad time if they decide to stay there, because they are prived of our troops infrastructure.

Conclusions: No matter we were for or against the war, this way of calling back the troops is a great slopiness which will taint spanish positions in the future as an unstable, unaccountable and volatile country in its decissions. Thanks to Zapatero and his demagoguery, like any populist president of a southamerican country.

My thoughts.

Fernando

Hola Fernando,

I just got a Spain Google alert from the Associated Press:
I went to the digital El Mundo, but could not locate the article in its entirety, only a brief overview, and this was not mentioned.

Do you know if Zapatero said this?

The interview is on pages eight to fourteen of today's El Mundo. Obviously it's quite long. I've made a hasty translation of the piece you're looking for. It'spart of a lengthy response to the accusation that he has broken a promise of waiting till June 30 to see if the UN would take charge of all troops in Iraq.

"My discourse has always been 'either the UN takes charge or the troops shouldn't be there'. From the day of the elections, a number of leading members of the Socialist Party as well as myself have been involved in meetings and conversations. I should remind you that on the day of the state funeral (for the victims of March 11) I met Colin Powell and Tony Blair and got a feel for how things were going to evolve. From that point on, we have been in contact with practically all the European governments and the US government and it was obvious that there was no chance... One high up US commander said, literally, 'Can you imagine 130,000 US troops taking orders from someone who isn't a US general?' So our conclusion was quite clear.
"This commander said this to a PSOE official. To Bono, precisely. (New minister of defence). It was therefore obvious that there was no chance that the UN was going to take over. Under these circumstances it was pointless to continue under false illusions, causing uncertainty among our troops and our allies."

Do you know the title of the article? I would like to try to find it to read.

Here are the highlights (in Spanish):

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2004/04/23/espana/1082683095.html

You'll have to pay to see the whole thing

Debil,
Please tell me that you're trying to be funny here...

The USA supported SPAIN in its conflict with Morroco in regards to 'Perejil' and *PREVENTED* a war, while, as our witty board-compatriot Fernando wrote, France simply laughed at SPAIN for being in such a situation with north-Africans.

Also, it's either your political 'emotion' coming thru or just the way you are, but why are you so militant? You always seem just one step away from throwing a tantrum.

I have a friend that's like you. In all other types of conversation he is great. He's funny, creative, loves to talk over canias. But as soon as politics comes into the discussion, he's a militant @*$@@#( socialist. He just is, even his socialist buddies say that. So it must be a trait of the left-wing like here in the USA.

So Debil, it's good you're not running SPAIN's diplomacy machine or else SPAIN would have been taking kickbacks from Iraq for the 'Oil for Food' program like Kofi Anan's son, France, Russia, and China. And by the way, an officer of your precious UN just admitted to taking *over* $3 million in kickbacks from Saddam. I'm sure glad the UN is such an important organization! I'm hoping that any day they'll pack their bags and get out of the USA.

over and out.