Z has embarked on a dangerous road

OK. Well, if there is to be a political Board, I will contribute (still think it is playing with fire...)

For anyone who has read my posts, recall that I did not really care who won the election per se. Elections embody a multitude of feelings that cannot always be assigned to particular feelings about a given candidate. What I was and always will be concerned with are the policies to be implemented. Before the election, I voiced my concerns about what I felt where misguided voices that went beyond the desires to win the election.
After the victory of the PSOE, what I have seen come out of Z's mouth has been astonishing,... diplomatically incendiary, counterproductive to any proclaimed efforts to fight terrorism, terribly threatening to the progress Spain has made under Aznar in become more than a European backwater (sorry folks, economically and politically sooo true) and frankly dangerous. To me it is incredible that Z is the new leader of Spain. This guy is no Felipe Gonzalez, folks.

Point by point...again, The fact that PSOE won means NOTHING to me. Let's stick to what he has done and how he has done it since winning the election.

Diplomatically incendiary. Though the ink is not even dry yet, he has insulted both Bush and Blair at every chance he has had. Iraq has not been a "disaster" unless you only watch CNN Headline News. Has he been to the country? Does he know what it was like beforehand? There is ALWAYS going to be resistance from the party that was booted out. Either he is unbelievably naive, or just plain...sorry to upset to say what I think. But geez, what a foolish, foolish way to enter elected office, regardless of your opinions and ESPECIALLY after a horrific bombing.

I just don't get it. The guy was a dufus prior to the election even to PSOE supporters (Face it, many confided in me that this guy was no Felipe Gonzalez, just a faceless bureaucrat). Instead of weaning troops out or meeting with World leaders to introduce them to the new Spanish platform, he chooses to insult the the efforts in Iraq and the dead of those who sacrificed for a cause in which they had firm beliefs??? Help me someone. Get this guy a public spokesman...

Counterproductive to Fighting terrorism. Let's assume you dislike Bush, You are angry over Iraq, you are sick of the US being a "bully," and that you really disliked Aznar...let's grant you all four for argument's sake...OK, a bomb goes off in your capital city. 201 innocents are killed. 11 million march against terrorism. So what is your first order of business as the president-elect??? Geez, one would think #1 would be to get informed over what was really going on (i.e. callete tu boca until you have assembled the facts of which you have NOT been privy to). One would also think you would immediately start conversations with those who have actually been fighting terrorism over the past four years or more. But...this career politician, a lawmaker since aged 25, takes neither a sensible nor brave approach to terrorism. Instead he actually immediately calls for the removal of Spain from a peaceful mission in Iraq, insulting the effort along the way, and THEN says he will be tough on terrorism. Who is this joker? Maybe he should back to the school of street smarts! Un-freakin' believable. As I posted earlier he just awarded Al-Q the easiest victory they could have ever, ever received. Again, NOT because the PSOE won--that could've happened for a million reasons, but because he has just sent signals all across the world that he agrees with Al-Q and will kow-tow to do exactly what they would have wanted!! If he wanted to fulfill campaign promises, he could have easily met with Allied leaders and figured out an exit strategy that would have protected his troops and kept up a tough front against Al-Q.

A second point with this, I am saddened that Z thinks that "No Al terrorismo" means "No To Terrorism If it Occurs in Spain." That is NOT what I thought 11 million people were saying last week. That is certainly not why I marched.

What will Spain do when they find out that Morrocco is the new Libya and Afghistan for Spain and that Morrocans, sick of generations of racism directed at them, has found a willing funding source, Al-Q, to fund the hell out of them. Do nothing?? WHo will help Spain root out Al-Q in Spain? France?? Sorry, LOL. Are you kidding me? And risk ticking off the 7-10 million Arabs in France? SOrry folks, the combo of Al-Q and Morroco has NOTHING to do with the US and Iraq. And after Z is through, good luck with getting help from the outside. Again, Felipe Gonzalez, this guy AIN'T. Hey whatever, hate Bush the man for all I care. But to openly taunt him and the sacrifices already made and then practically cut off ties before you know what allies you actually DO have??? Pure Bonehead.

Two steps backward. If Z has bided his time and then slowly brought home the troops and fought Al-Q at home he would be a hero. He would have gone the Nueva Via. Instead, not only does he make it is first task not to help the victims of the bombing, not to fight terrorism, but he then insults Bush and Blair and follows that up by meakly announcing that Spain will now fall in line with the rest of Europe!! Ayy, Dios Mio. From Spain forging a Nueva Via, to Spain with hat in hand waiting for handouts from France, Germany, Russia, Italy, and down the road from the UK. That is leadership? According to whose definition, pray tell? WHile Al-Q gets an A+, Señor Z gets no better than a D and most lkely worse.

Finally, his treads a road that is dangerous. As Kevin pointed out, when you insult your erstwhile allies, beg to those who never gave you much respect before, and then cross your fingers and HOPE that the Moros, the convenient butt of all jokes and insults here, don't continue to find greivances (with funding provided by Al-Q) well after Iraq ceases to be an issue, Spain will be navigating danerous thoroughfares. Since the guy has no industry or diplomatic experience, I think he forgot one of the cardinal rules of negotiation: Don't shut any doors without looking around to make sure that some remain open!! HAve fun with France...

I have nothing against the PSOE nor against folks who want to extricate themselves from Iraq. I also "want" all troops home ASAP. But...how it is done and when would be be appropriate are the decisions that separate true leaders from armchair bureaucrats. THese are the crossroads that separate the men from the boys. So far Z has shown himself thus far to be in need of repeating kindergarten...

An extra prayer tonight for Spain. "...Father forgive them, for they don’t know what they do."

EXCELLENT POST!

Yes I must agree, a very good post. Usually my posts get awfully wordy, but amazingly I find very little to add to this.

Your commentary on Z's actions since the election were very insightful. Whether he likes Bush and Blair or not, he gains nothing by insulting them and acting in the manner he is. He alienates them to what purpose? Someone needs to tell him the election is OVER.

As for support you can expect from the rest of Europe, well I hope your not holding your breath in expectation of that. The only consolation is that if any of the other European nations DO decide to help out.. well... just about any country that wants to can send their armies across France at will.

On a different note, I hear a lot about European nations thinking that a counterbalance to Americas power is needed, and they see Europe as that future counterbalance. Hardly seems like the plans of people who have any desire to be our allies in any manner for long. You cannot be allies and protagonists at the same time. Polls are saying this is a very widely supported idea in Europe, and that most Europeans support paying the costs to achieve military parity with the US. We shall see when the bills for such expansion ARE completed.. but rest assured, we will not be paying for a big chunk of it as we did with our funds for NATO. Our economic system made us able to not only compete with the soviets, but to bankrupt them. Do you honestly think a socialist EUROPE can do a better job than a socialist Russia? Do you REALLY want America and Europe sitting with nukes aimed at each other?

A couple of points.

** Z should take responsibility for the latest bombing in Iraq. Did you hear? An entire hotel razed to the ground. WHo died? About 30-40 everyday working Iraqis and their families. It utterly disgusts me. Z has emboldened Al-Q and their copycats. Expect the heat to be turned up.

** Post Cold War means Post Europe. The time has come for Washington to turn to the East where the US is still respected. Together, China and India are 2.3 billion people. or 40% of the World's population. They are both only beginning to hit their strides. They love US technology and US friendliness. They do not have their Euro contempt for us. Imagine 100% tariffs on Euro goods, and a pro-Asia strategy. Socialist Europe will soon collapse under its own weight as populations continue to age and social security continues to take large % of our folks'pay. Europe is yesterday's news. The future is in Asia.

Our four largest trading partners are Canada, Mexico, Japan and China. We slap the tariffs. Europe crumbles. What will happen to the US? A slight recession at worst. I am starting to care less and less.

No need nor cause for war or hostilities. JUst abandon them. Let them deal with huge Arab populations that they themselves treat with contempt. I personally have great respect for Arab culture. Most non-Arab Euros don't. Ask the Vietnamese. They still dislike the French but credibly enough have positive feelings toward the US--contrary to what many might think.

Let Europe deal with run away Russian Republics. Let them deal with Yugoslavia (I see Kosovo is flaring up again). Let them deal with the Cyprus issue).

In WW2, what economic integration we had in thr world was almost exclusively European. Those figures are dropping with each quarter.

Arrogance is not very comforting when your unemployment rate starts to soar above 15% which it would were to US really truly use economic muscle.

For countries that undestand what freedom means, the Czechs, the Poles, etc. Give them tariff free access.

All said, Spain will have to pay the price for their leadership. If they're happy with what transpires I'm all for it. But I think Z's a fool to begin distancing himself from the US and UK like he's doing. He may rue the day he didn't think before opening his mouth.

Especially about the time that his "new friends" in Europe start blaming him and his party for the increased activity by terrorists in their countries. But he may be too busy trying to figure out why al Qaeda is doing their damnedest to take over the Southern half of Spain. I guess he didn't listen to bin Laden's words about how Spain would pay for Andalucia.

Yhen there's the issues with Morocco, including two cities on what they call Moroccan territory, and some islands called the Canaries. They want them back, and al Qaeda will be more than happy to help them in their cause.

Wolf

Wow. I'm impressed. (and happy to see it!) There are SOME people (above) able to debate issues in a logical, mature, and intelligent manner! I was beginning to wonder. Congratulations, people. And thank you very much.

Saludos, MadridMan

You guys are taking me to school.

this one just came off the ap wire,

"In the hourlong interview Wednesday on Onda Cero radio, Zapatero said that ``fighting terrorism with bombs ... with Tomahawk missiles, isn't the way to defeat terrorism.

"Terrorism is combatted by the state of law. ... That's what I think Europe and the international community have to debate,'' he said.

OK make a law, no more bombing civilian rail lines no more flying planes into buildings, or blowing up cars infront of night clubs.

If every country does that tomorrow, we're in, no more terrorism.

Someone shoudl have outlawed all of this a long time ago

Truce between Al-Q and Z? That is what I am hearing...please, please tell me I am wrong or that the media is mistaken...

If so, what cost to sell thy soul?! Will Z drop intentions to "take a hardline on terrorism?" Will Z do everything he can in answer to cries of "No AL terrorismo?" Or will Z reach a private agreement that trades the "assurances" of no Al-Q attack on Spanish soil for Spain withdrawing from the fight vs. the terrorism of Al-Q and other such terrorists?

I am telling you now, if Z bows in and makes a deal with the devil, Spain will suffer the consequence long after he is gone.

The fact that the Z government is now refusing all intelligence cooperation vs. terrorism is odd for a man who knows next to nothing about terrorism but all too clear for a man who has already sold the soul of his countrymen to the evil of Al-Q.

How on earth can this guy look the parents of the young children who were massacred and tell them, "No, I did not hunt down your baby's killers. Yes, I refused information that would led to the murderers being brought to justice. No, I have yet to make forceful statements against this despicable act. Yes, in lieu of such comments, I decided instead to insult the US and UK efforts in Iraq. Yes, I made a deal with your child's killers. NO they will not be pursued nor punished...and Yes, Your child died in vain for I have thrown in the towel..."

Wow...as a parent I am beside myself. I pray that what we are now hearing is simply media churning and candidate-elect positioning. If not, I would have to pray for Z that he may get back some semblance of duty and honor and start acting as a leader of a proud and once defiant and independent Spain. My goodness gracious when will this nonsense end??!!

E3, My only regret is that I jumped the gun on Home of the Brave, for he brought up Neville Chamberlain and he was spot on!!

Z is a typical Euro/LatinAm political-lawyer who will draft incredibly grandiose proclamations while the people of Rwanda, Armenia, Eastern Europe, and Bosnia die in the hundreds of thousands before he gets voted out and action is taken.

Deals with the devil are not new phenomena. Aside from Chamberlain's classic naivete at Munch in 38, we had Roosevelt & Stalin at Yalta. Patton rolled his tanks to the edge of Prague and sat there for nearly a week so that the deal Roosevelt made with the Devil of Stalin, agreed upon in some flimsly drafted document, would be carried out. In the process, Czechoslovakia sat behind the Iron Curtain for nearly 45 years.

This guy Z is the Paper President. Even though he was PSOE, Felipe Gonzalez had pizzazz and charisma. Aznar produced results and put Spain on the geopolitical map for the first time in since the end of the 19th century. What about Z? Z wants Spain to crawl back into a shell made of paper promises and the bills of sale of untold thousands of souls who will die as a result of him handing Al-Q its easiest victory thus far.

This guy is pathetic...

All you PSOE supporters out there. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!!! Put the loyalty to your country before party allegiances. Tell the PSOE to have this paper-pushing bureaucrat step aside so that the PSOE can replace him with a leader of men. Surely there is someone in PSOE with more tact and street smarts than this joker...At this pace, you are sealing your own party's fate, just like Carter's ineptitude essentially handed the Republicans 12 years straight. UNless you get Z in line, get ready for the PP to step in with a guy twice as intense as Aznar in four years time...

The Clinton justice department handled terrorism like an issue with the law as well.....

......didn't seem to work out too well. If he'd had taken Bin Laden from the Sudanese when they offered to hand him over, instead of saying we had no controlling legal authority over him although he was number 1 on the FREAKING MOST WANTED LIST, 3000+ Americans might still be alive.

The USS Cole
Two American Embassies
World Trade Center '93
Kohbar Towers

What do they have in common? They happened under Clinton with his "We'll try the terrorists as criminals" and only the ones that had a direct connection approach.

World Trade Center '01
???? Yep, that was it.

Under Bush....and we're STILL catching and fighting those SOB's. God Bless you Prez. Bush.

Several random thoughts to add fuel to the fire-

Early in February I read an editorial by Felipe Gonzalez in the english language edition of El Pais. While I don't remember all the details, the gist of it was 'Don't count me out, I'm not finished yet'.

If I recall correctly, wasn't the downfall of the Gonzalez socialist government due to a scandal involving the assassinations of ETA members?

It appears to me as if Zapatero may be in over his head.

Shouldn't we be refering to him as Rodriguez or Rodriguez Zapatero?

I can't wait to be called an idiot!

Felipe González has been, without difference, the worst president in spanish democracy.

His first years were very necessary. He and his Government gave some fresh air to the country, showing a new kind of politics to the people, but his last 8 years were awful. His Governments were plagued with corruption (ministers and other chairmen involved in scandals were thousands of million pesetas were stolen).

He was also involved in a scandal of irregular (and illegal) financing of his party, giving radio and TV licenses to his friends and even what you mentioned: State's terrorism of the worst nature. He and his government were involved in the killings of many innocent people (and a few terrorists).

Zapatero didn't reject all this facts, so he has assumed them as if they had never existed (to his shame).

He should be called Rodríguez. The problem is that Rodríguez is a very common surname, so journalists decided to call him for his second surname (the one from his mother) from the very beginning.

And you are not an idiot for asking for somthing you don't have to know

Fernando

I don't agree with you Fernando.
PP has been as corrupted as PSOE in my point of view.
The State terrorism González made was in a time when France didn't cooperate in fighting terrorism and terrorist had a Santuary in France, that why they decided to go against the law.
Aznar, the most defensor of Constitution nowadays asked for voting NO in 1976 when it was approved by the majority of Spanish, so I think there's people who must be more ashamed of his past than ZP.

Good morning from America.

Wow, just finished reading the posts since I last posted, looks like a lot has been happening over there in a very quick order.
The whole thing of Z selling his people out to the terrorists like this is amazing. Considering how he is capitulating in this extreme it would almost appear that maybe the socialists did not just reap the benefits of the terror attacks on the trains.. one must wonder if a deal may have been struck at some time before that with the terrorists. God, I hope things do not continue down the path it appears you are on. From the looks of things I would not be suprised to see an Al Q training camp appearing on spanish soil one day. Would hate to see a situation at some time in which Tomahawks were falling in Spain.
With this whole European Union acting as a counterbalance to American power idea, Spains possible entrance into the EU, and (dare I say it?) possible collusion with terrorists by the new spanish govt... well the southern hemisphere may well end up dominating the world as the northern hemisphere gets a major dose of landscaping, 20 megatons at a time, on both sides the Atlantic.

I hope you guys have the ability to do recall elections, and wake up before it is too late.

It appears that in the elections, many spaniards voted with their heart rather than their head. As nice and flowery as such thinking may seem to romantic types... my personal experience has been that every time I make decisions based upon emotion, they turned out to be the worst mistakes of my life.

A question for my Spanish fellow board members-Do members of your congress have the ability to call for a vote of no confidence or are the elections fixed like here in the US?

A couple of quotes:

"You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war." - Winston Churchill reply to Neville Chamberlain's claim of "peace in our time"

And:

"An infallible method of conciliating a tiger is to allow oneself to be devoured." - Konrad Adenauer

Well I sure am glad that the PSOE won over the PP. I can see the islamic terrorists fleeing over the boarders to France as we speak! (NOT REALLY.)

Madrid Warned About Supporting U.S.

Now that the terrorists got what they wanted, they're going to go for more! Give an inch take a mile?

Whaddyer bet Z gives in and pulls out troops immediately? Any takers on that bet? (i'm not sure i would really go for that bet, but it sure is fun to rib Z)

BTW, Fupanier, nice quotes! How applicable...

What's happening in Spain may or may not have anything to do with the elections in the mind of the people, but to the terrorists, its obviously something they can point at and indicate from their own perspective that they did in fact cause the people of Spain to change their minds before they reached the polls. As such, it becomes a selling point for them in their recruiting efforts, and what we're seeing developing as more frequent attacks in Iraq, and other nations, could be the end result of their improved recruiting. But that's all conjecture, because we don't really know if there has been an escalation in activities, or its about where the extremists intended to be in the first place.

What does concern me though is that Spain is now being directly challenged to do what the terrorists tell them to do, or face the horrible consequences. It concerns me because the Spanish government has done so much to distance itself from the US. Will the US step forward and give unquestioning support to Spain after the new government has denounced our government and President? If the US does step forward, will it be without concession from Spain, or in the name of fighting terrorism, without taking the rhetoric of post election comments into consideration?

Right now its a difficult time for Spain. They've moved from the side of the US to the side of the French and Germans, and God only knows neither of them will lift a finger to help Spain secure the safety of their own borders, or give them support in fighting terrorism.

Wolf

Nicely said Wolf.
As a Spaniard living in the US I can say that living outside of Spain gives you a more clear view of the "whole picture" which most local people don't get.

Chus

We are pinned. No matter what we do, we are going to suffer more massive killings and/or savage attacks to our troops in Irak.

It was very irresponsible for Zapatero to hang his political campaign in the discontent of Irak's War. Now we will suffer the consequences.

However, no matter I dislike Zapatero's choice, I'm sure he is not going to let terrorists win. He may call the troops back from Irak, but he won't call back the troops in Afghanistan, and won't comply with terrorists' demands.

If he does the opposite, then we will have a never-ending list of demands: Call back the troops from Irak, call back the troops from Afghanistan, don't aid USA against arab nations, give Ceuta, Melilla and Canary Islands to Morocoo, make the army abandon Andalucia, give Andalucia to Morocco,...

If terrorists see they can manage victories by killing people, they will kill more people to achieve what they want. Is as simple as an economy problem.

How many people will cost us all these...

Fernando

It is sad to read these posts some 2-3 weeks later and realize that today, our collective fears were unfortunately realized. Z has decided unilaterally and with no meeting with Bush or NATO or the UN to pull Spanish troops out of Iraq.

What a cowardly politician. Sure, he campaigned to do as much. I ackoeldge that. But for all of us who have been around the block, candidates promose evertyhing under the sun. Once elected and installed and ONLY THEN, do leaders of countries have acdcess to the latest and most detailed military intelligence.

To withdraw troops with nary a hint of consultation and within 48 hours of la investidura, is so childish and appeasing to the naive that it is frightening to behold. At least have the intelligence and maturity and guts to argue your terms with Allied leaders.

Acting in this way, Z has burned bridges not just with Bush, but with everyone who has ever had the courage to act based on principle.

His timing in politically perfect, at least domestically. Tourist $$ is starting to pour into Spain. However for Spain's business community that does something other than cerveza and jamon iberico? Welcome to increased domination from the far more sophisticated coroprations of France and Germany as Spain "mean reverts" back to the nest and its place as the #8 or #9 political and economic player in Europe (behind GER, FRA, RUSSIA, UK, ITALY, SUISSE, Sweden, and perhaps a number of other countries...)

So did anyone take my bet?

It would be too easy to say that I took my own bet, but I did not. I didn't think Z would be so short-sighted as to pull his troops out so quickly.

If you took my bet and won, please proceed to window #5 where you can collect your winnings (a churro con chocolate)

[Originally posted by almohada on 04-27-2004 10:41 PM]

qui pro quo: the real agenda of Z...

...but at what price.

From Reuters...

MADRID, Spain (Reuters) - Spain will ask anti-war allies Germany and France to join in a proposal calling for a U.S. exit from Iraq and a new international presence in the country, a Spanish government source said Tuesday.

"The idea is to see if Spain, France and Germany can help the United States find an exit from Iraq...and devise a formula for an international presence there that would not be perceived as an occupation by most of the population," the source said.

New Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, whose first decision on taking office was to withdraw troops sent to Iraq by his predecessor, said Tuesday the last of Spain's soldiers will have left Iraq by May 27.

Zapatero will make the proposal during talks with German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder in Berlin Wednesday and with French President Jacques Chirac in Paris Thursday. Germany has already expressed interest in it, the source said.

So...what is in it for Spain under Z? What is the quid pro quo for the nakedly public deeds of withdrawing troops, repeatedly thumbing noses at the US in Iraq, and leaking news that Spain will propose to France and Germany that the US leave Iraq for an "international" force (that failed to enforce the UN resolution in 2002 in the first place). What little political perks and perhaps a few economic bones will Z "win" as a result of its public embrace of everything Franco-German?

More loans and grants for infrastructure? ECB and EU positions? (Rato would be too convenient for my argument, but the facts are that he was high in the pipeline months ago. Still, reports citing French and German approval seem to indicate that any resistance fell quickly by the wayside).

One thing for sure, if I were Chriac, I would bring Z to every major political function possible. Great face and in-your-face time, no?

Let's all wait and see what this latest version of a "world leader pledged to fight terrorism" will receive for each pull of the puppet's strings.

Ahhh, mi España, a donde se fue? I will admit, it hurts to see Spain jump ship, not to her own ship, but to the Europolitik ship of France and Germany. How I wish she had the courage to go on her own, like a Sweden. But as much as I think Z is selling the soul of Spain, I am sure PR man that he appears to be, Z will get a good price.

Not quite blood money, but something that does not sit well.

You know, Almohada here is trying to get rid of that almoahda that is qround his waste. I took as much needed run around Retiro. Almost immediately, I came across the glorieta of the Plaza de Independencia. And raised in a very pro Mexican family, I was thinking, geez, independence from whom? After all all of Latin America celebrates its independence from Spain. But then I remembered Goya and SPain's fight for independence from Naploeon's France. Now, I don;t know if that is the independence memorialized by that Plaza. However, it is funny how life repeats itself, though with different manifestations. Back then, Napoleon tricked Spain into unifying in a contintental war against Britain, only to invade Spain herself and install his brother on the throne.

Today, no trickery is needed, just quid pro quos and photo ops. But the end result is the same, no?

To those who think of Spain as España and not Europe, Viva la independencia de España!

Hi all,
I am Madrileño and I can tell you with all the respec to your way of thinking that most of the things almoeda says make nonsense to a spaniard like me. Spain was one of the countries in the hole world were the war against a poor country devasted by another war and a dictator was strongly refused, before Madrid blasts 80% of Spain population was against the war because of petrol and we show it to the world with millions op people on the streets, because that's the truth, you fight for petrol not for freedom. Zapatero promised to get out of Irak before the elections so it is a must to Zapatero to get our troops from Irak, but if you think almoeda that the blasts maked to change decission in the spanish vote you are really wrong, what these blasts and the lies said by Aznar about it when they allready know that was Al Qaeda pushed people to go voting, but please note that Aznar's party PP losted few votes I think about 800.000, What means? Simple, most of the people who voted Aznar in 2000 voted PP again even if they are against Irak ocuppation, but why did he lost the elections? Put an eye on the participation, the ones who did not go voting in past elections voted in this election and most of them are PSOE supporters (Zapatero's party)
If you think that a Madrileño doesn't know what terrorism it is and we are scared about it first of all I should remember you that we've been hit by ETA year by year since 1973, so as you can imagine we do know what terrorism is all about. My city fighted and resisted in the Spanish Civil War for 4 years against Franco with a very strong support of Hitler, one little village of Madrid community declared the war against Napoleon. what I mean with all this is that Madrileños are like pacefull lions having a little rest, but we still being a lion and we are not scare of death if we think that our way is the just one, just like the US people.
I hope that Disney will allow at last the show of Michael Moore's new documentary about the real reasons of the war against Irak and maybe you will start to realize that we do have very strong reasons to be as far as possible of Bush political behavior.
I’ve been in the US and I can tell you that I really love this country but the thing I love most is the US people I’ve been allways proud of having the oportunity to meet a lot of US people althougth you are not perfect and you can be wrong too. ;-)
I think almoeda you claim implicitly for an economic war against us because with the data we managed most of the europeans think US government is wrong, what is next? Bombing us with nuclear weapons if we don’t think the way you do?
Now let’s talk a little bit about your president. Hopefully I know that US is a huge country, there are oppinios of all kinds and there is a strong opposition too against the war on Irak against Bush and against human rights abuse, tortures and US not supporting Kioto (this was one of your president first decission when he get to the White House if I am not remembering bad)
World is ruled by US, great things have been done by your country in the name of freedom an justice you did great job lot of time but not with president Bush he is a dangerous guy behind that stupid smile that we shows on TV holding a plastic turkey, he is like that turkey great look but plastic inside.
I think Bush is like a big elephant in a hardware store triying to find where the trees are destroying all the items in his way to the jungle search inside the store managed by military and petrol companies as his father was. We tries to hunt flies with bombs.
US is able to do the greatest and the worst things in the world is like a spoiled child that gets angry when people doesn’t think the way he does and it is the loving father that gives his live for his sons with no doubt.
I hope that you understand that you must respect Spanish people decission even if you don’t think like us, because getting off our troops from Irak won’t hurt or kill inoccent people and we think we are contributing to make this world a better place.

Please excuse my english as it is not my mother tonge.

Ah, the old "War-for-Oil" bit. I'm sorry, but logically this makes no sense. Think, if Bush were only interested in Iraqi oil, then he would make a deal with Saddam and buy it from him, the cheapest and simpliest way to obtain any commodity (which is what, come to think of it,what France, Germany, Russia and the whole "anti-war" coalition was doing). Why would the US launch an invasion that was guarenteed to halt the flow of oil from Iraq, if the "war-for-oil" argument is to be believed?

No, the "war-for-oil" was actually being fought from the other side, the "anti-war" bunch. For years, officials from the UN, France, Germany, Russia and leading "anti-war" advocates in Britain were stuffing their pockets with millionns and millions in bribes and 'concessions' from Saddam's Oil Ministry while Saddam built palaces and fed his Swiss bank accounts with skims and kickbacks. Now we know why France, Germany et.al. were so keen on keeping Saddam in place. Why kill the goose that lays golden eggs for you? The corrupt "Oil-for-Food" 'program' will soon be exposed as the greatest humanitarian aid rip-off in world history. But don't hold your breath waiting for Le Monde, the Mirror or the New York Times to make it front page news.

In return for Saddam's millions, France, Germany, et.al. insulted and belittled the U.S. In a choice between a nation that has been generous beyond belief, and has been no threat of any kind and one of the most vicious, bloody and repugnant dictators of the modern era, who had demonstarted an appetite for agressiveness, support for terrorist groups, attacks on defenseless civilian populations within his own country and a desire to harm the USA and was by any measure an international outlaw, the people of Europe, led by their corrupted goverments, chose the dictator.

Now the people of Spain, led by their new knight in shining armor, have rejected a strategic relationship with the only nation that can help defend them against further jihadist offensives. And there will be more to come. Do you believe you have slaked the thirst of al-Queda and its allies by your abandonment of the United States? Not bloody likely (emphisis on 'bloody'). You have merely encouraged and emboldened them. Sticking your head in the sand won't stop your a** from getting kicked.

I thought most had dropped the "war for oil" routine when it became obvious that the US wasn't stealing any.

Michael Moores latest political farce was never in danger of not being distributed. It was a publicity stunt. There's no shortage of those willing to show his fabricated nonesense.

The "torture" that you refer to was awful - but isolated and small. It is - and will be aired out fully - and honestly.

I read that Spain is not meeting Kyoto agreements (El Pais) The US emissions have had a net drop over the same time period. Perhaps only the US should meet these limitations?

Europeans know that there is no danger from the US when they disagree - which is why there is such a popular pig-pile on it. Why not? There's no real consequences, outside of losing a few tourists.

Skunk, the series of bigoted statements about Bush shows nothing but ignorance about the man, his motivations, and his policies. And believe it or not, I say that respectfully.

Also, the best hope for making the world a better place, is not to abandon Iraq. The best hope for peace is a free and democratic Iraq. The greatest hope for Arab democracy now exists there, and folks like you will be shocked when the coalition pulls out upon their independence.

Also, we don't HAVE to respect the Spanish decision, but we do. I haven't seen Americans burning the Spanish flag, or figures of Zapatero - or even calling him stupid. Can you say the same?

About your English - no problem - maybe that means you won't be able to pick out my many typing errors!

I feel like I have lost the battle from the beginin, I'm not talking in my mother tonge and just for writing some kind of worlds I know that my IP will be scanned for years just for talking about these problems. And I know that you won't understand me. I will always remember September 11th like one of the worst days in my life as I will do with March 11th and the way I think about Bush goverment is far away from what I think of the US people. Once said that all of us are loosing freedom from Coffi Anan who was spied by your country, the palestinian 14 years old boy that stick a bomb to his body, to a simple IP adress like mine that is making this world a worst place to live. I don't have solutions I have thougts about this terror I am not pretending to encourage no one against no one but is not possible to stop someone that thinks he is getting dozen of virgins in the afterlife for blow up himself in a bus in Israel or a Train in Madrid with nothing to loose but to win. I live in a country where all you have to do to get to it from the home country of those who killed in my hometown (please dont't forget that as I don't forget 11S) is taking a boat by night and ship for 7 miles. Islamic community has a very strong feeling of brotherwood and for what I can see or read they've been felling masacred. I dont know the answers but I do have some questions, is the right way the way of the war againts terrorism? We also had in Spain a dictator for 40 years and fortunally we had what was called the transition let's promote transitions in all these poor countries that need to invest a lot in education, but let's give them their time and let's show them what the human righs are, and in my opinion, is not posible to show that on Guatánamo or in Irak's prisions as we've seen. US has the technology, the money and the power but that doesn't mean you're alwas right in all the things your goverment do and revenge is not the way to follow as we can see in Israel.
I do not wonder what some people that takes as an ofense the democratic decisions taken for try to solve in a different way what we have allready seen that doesn't work when you hear that it was a lie the mass destruction weapons issue, the way US goverment Spies the ONU etc etc etc... Some people always will have a good reason for all that, even if they don't know and I think is a deep need of revenge. And that takes us to nowhere.

Skunk, first of all - you expressed your views clearly enough - & I don't take it personal!

I feel that your conclusions and views are wrong - and nothing more. The US (and yeah, even Bush) are not as evil intended as I think - you believe. The action in Iraq is not an act of revenge. The cost has been great (even for those brave Spaniards who gave their lives there) - and the intent is for freedom - NOT oppression. We need Islam's help, but we can't expect much from them when their living under midevil savage dictators. This action is our greatest hope for change - it's not guranteed, but I'm rooting for success. Hopefully, the ardent anti-Americanism (or anti-Bushism) won't have them rooting for failure in Iraq. We all win if the coalition is successful....

Fup

What you all said far know I strongly agree with this:
Spanish goverment decision could be seen for the terrorist as a victory.We need Islam's help, but we can't expect much from them when their living under midevil savage dictators.
And know I'd like to make some comments that I felt like it was nessesary to me to say something about frases like this that can be read on this forum:

"Right now its a difficult time for Spain. They've moved from the side of the US to the side of the French and Germans, and God only knows neither of them will lift a finger to help Spain secure the safety of their own borders, or give them support in fighting terrorism".
It is clear for me that you don't understan Europe's spirit
"Acting in this way, Z has burned bridges not just with Bush, but with everyone who has ever had the courage to act based on principle"
So you mean he has no princeples, how do you call order turtures to prissioners and left in an island people for more than 2 years without a lawer even if they are terrorists?
"the people of Europe, led by their corrupted goverments, chose the dictator."
Is a very serius offence to me to hear things like this, because I am alwas talkig about Bush goverment, not about US people. But sounds weird from my point of view as I think that you has a really great president with Clinton but you trated he harder than Bush just because some b***jobs. B***jobs vs tortures I do prefer b***jobs!!! This seems to be a very hypocrite acctitude.
"Sticking your head in the sand won't stop your a** from getting kicked."
Sounds like the one who wrote this is waiting anxious for the day Madrid blast came again.
"Skunk, the series of bigoted statements about Bush shows nothing but ignorance about the man, his motivations, and his policies. And believe it or not, I say that respectfully."
I didn't call anyone an ignorant althougth it is funny for a spaniard like me that heared from one of your presidents that Spain was Near Mexico or by a senator call Spain republic when it is a Monarchy, but I am glad to see so many Us people in this forum so well informed and in possesion of the absolut truth.
"This guy is pathetic..."
No comments as I can imagine you could be the typical US guy that could ask me if in Spain we live in houses or if we use kleenex.
"Europeans know that there is no danger from the US when they disagree - which is why there is such a popular pig-pile on it. Why not? There's no real consequences, outside of losing a few tourists."
Tourist is the main industrie in Spain, so in my opinion this is to take risks.
"The fact that the Z government is now refusing all intelligence cooperation vs. terrorism is odd for a man who knows next to nothing about terrorism but all too clear for a man who has already sold the soul of his countrymen to the evil of Al-Q."

So you think this is not to take risks and be a coward? We don't have the technologhy US has. Is difficult to smile to a sentence like this because US press and some politicians yesterday still calling ETA terrorism "Basque rebelion" and I insist YES IN SPAIN WE KNOW VERY VERY WELL WHAT TERRORISM IS, is US the one who becomes to realized what means that word.

"Also, we don't HAVE to respect the Spanish decision, but we do. I haven't seen Americans burning the Spanish flag, or figures of Zapatero - or even calling him stupid. Can you say the same?"
Yes I can because I just said that he has a stupid smile not that he is a stupid, big difference right? And also I never saw any spaniard burning an American flag although I guess that maybe some day some spanish could have done somethig as stupid as that. And I am showing you that you are wrong about that no one has said things much much harder and not just about Zapatero even to spanish people just for doing what we promised in the elections and we voted for.
"You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war." - Winston Churchill reply to Neville Chamberlain's claim of "peace in our time"
Paste this in this forum talking about what we talk is like to say to me that I don't have honor because I don't think like you.

I would have to pray for Z that he may get back some semblance of duty and honor and start acting as a leader of a proud and once defiant and independent Spain. My goodness gracious when will this nonsense end??!!
I can tell you as you won't know that the Aznar govermet total aligment with Bush lies has been a very very important factor for his banned of the goverment.

"Considering how he is capitulating in this extreme it would almost appear that maybe the socialists did not just reap the benefits of the terror attacks on the trains.. one must wonder if a deal may have been struck at some time before that with the terrorists. "
Excuse me if I couldn't shut my mouth I had to try to offer a diferent vision of the problem to say something like this is like to say that Bush planned the 11S with Talibannes (wich were strongly supported and trained by US in the past to make war against URSS) in order to have the perfect excuse to start 2 wars one against one of the poorest country in the world and the other with an incredible oil pruduction and with lies about a treath for the world of the massive destruction weapons be able to get the control over oil pruducction in Irak, to get huge reconstruction contracts to boost the public investments in weapons development and cancell the contracts that some countries in Europe allready had and by the way making as difficult as possible the development of a united Europe separating Spain european parthners that make possible the actual developement of my country overcome Germany who really makes a huge effort and it is called Europe Engine's. Seems like US just wants Europe as customer not as a partner As well as cut freedom in the hole world. Sounds weird for you right? Let me tell you that you'll be surprised on how much people think this around the world and please let me tell you that I don't think in any way that 11S was planned by Bush but he is not a nun indeed and he has used the situation, US will make a lot of money with this and will get more power and control over the world. Also let me tell you that of course Spain wants democracy for the rest of the world and of course Zapatero would have keep the trops on Iraq under the ONU mission. But not under Bush wishes and orders. To be a goog friend should't be confused with to be a Bush policies's slave.

And about Kioto that was another good reason to ban Aznar from the goverment.

Geez skunk, take a breath - I'll respond just the ones that apply to me:

"B***jobs vs tortures I do prefer b***jobs!!! This seems to be a very hypocrite acctitude."

Well, this one doesn't really apply to me, but I'll answer anyway... I too prefer b***jobs! - As I'm sure does Bush. But doesn't advocate torture, and I think you know it.

""Skunk, the series of bigoted statements about Bush shows nothing but ignorance about the man, his motivations, and his policies. And believe it or not, I say that respectfully."
I didn't call anyone an ignorant althougth it is funny for a spaniard like me that heared from one of your presidents that Spain was Near Mexico or by a senator call Spain republic when it is a Monarchy, but I am glad to see so many Us people in this forum so well informed and in possesion of the absolut truth."

That changes nothing about your missconceptions about Bush. And dissagreeing with you is not a defect. So you don't think you're speaking the truth too?

""This guy is pathetic..."
No comments as I can imagine you could be the typical US guy that could ask me if in Spain we live in houses or if we use kleenex."

I didn't make the above comment - but, does the "typical US guy" you meet really ask you that? - Or are you just expressing the anti-American bigotry that you claim you don't have...

""Europeans know that there is no danger from the US when they disagree - which is why there is such a popular pig-pile on it. Why not? There's no real consequences, outside of losing a few tourists."
Tourist is the main industrie in Spain, so in my opinion this is to take risks."

Not much in the way of a "risk".

"Also, we don't HAVE to respect the Spanish decision, but we do. I haven't seen Americans burning the Spanish flag, or figures of Zapatero - or even calling him stupid. Can you say the same?"
"Yes I can because I just said that he has a stupid smile not that he is a stupid, big difference right?

No.

""And also I never saw any spaniard burning an American flag although I guess that maybe some day some spanish could have done somethig as stupid as that. And I am showing you that you are wrong about that no one has said things much much harder and not just about Zapatero even to spanish people just for doing what we promised in the elections and we voted for.""

There's been no comparison, I haven't seen a single person take to the streets against Spain. Even the new Spanish government came in with a string of anti-American comments - and you haven't heard ANY from the Bush administration about Spain - outside of it being "regretible" and "Spain is still a good partner against terrorism".

"You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war." - Winston Churchill reply to Neville Chamberlain's claim of "peace in our time"
Paste this in this forum talking about what we talk is like to say to me that I don't have honor because I don't think like you.

Nope, it's a statement about the foolishness of believing that you can be reasonable with mass-murderers. In the end, you'll have to deal with them - except later on "their" terms.

"I can tell you as you won't know that the Aznar govermet total aligment with Bush lies has been a very very important factor for his banned of the goverment."

This wasn't in response to me, but let me say that - had the election not been heading towards victory for Anzar - and then switch after the mass murder of Spanish citizens, the results would not have generated much response from some of us at all. It was the overwhelming sense that the terrorists had been handed a victory that left many of us shocked. The motivation of the voters mattered little to the terrorists who believed that terror brought them success. Elections everywhere are now in danger, even if Spaniards didn't mean that to be the result.

skunk, I get the feeling that you don't come in contact with those that disagree with you much... you take it too personal. You wail that you've been insulted - while throwing them out. I can honestly say that I love Spain, without indicating that I think their partially retarded - like you seem to feel about the "typical American". And yep, I think I'm right... that's called an opinion - which you have a few of yourself!

Buenos noches! :o

I don't know if you caught it -

...."their partially retarded" should be
...."they're partially retarded"

indicating that maybe I AM!!!

(I had to catch that before booklady did!)

Fup

Skunk:

Hay muchisimos estadounidenses que pensamos igual que tu sobre estos temas. El problema es que los derechistas, solo saben insultar y vomitar las mentiras que les atibúrra la prensa americana. Yo soy estadounidense y la verdad es que me provóca un estrés magnífico esta administración y pensar que la prensa derechista y la gente, paralizada con miedo, van a elegir a Bush de nuevo, pues, es suficiente para hacerme llorar. Pero, bueno, solo quería dejarte saber que somos muchísimos los que tenemos ideas más progresívas sobre la política estadounidense y las decisiones de Zapatero (que por cierto, una encuesta por CNN dijo que la mayoría de la gente piensa que ha hecho bien). Te lo escríbo en español porque no quiero dramas con esta gente, que aunque no les tengo miedo, no necesito pensar que hay gente que puede creerse tanta mierda. Un beso!

One question, did someone just say Spaniards are partially retarded? I have to say that it is sickening that a comment like that would be allowed to remain on this site.

silvita -

Nope, Nobody said anything even similar to that. It was the opposite. Americans were indicated as being ignorant, which I referred to as saying that the inference was - Americans - were "partially retarded".

Fup

silvita - To be sure you didn't miss it -

Comment by skunk:

"No comments as I can imagine you could be the typical US guy that could ask me if in Spain we live in houses or if we use kleenex"

Response by me (though he didn't direct his comment towards me):

""skunk, I get the feeling that you don't come in contact with those that disagree with you much... you take it too personal. You wail that you've been insulted - while throwing them out. I can honestly say that I love Spain, without indicating that I think their partially retarded - like you seem to feel about the "typical American". And yep, I think I'm right... that's called an opinion - which you have a few of yourself!""

Follow-up bad joke about MYSELF:

""I don't know if you caught it -

...."their partially retarded" should be
...."they're partially retarded"

indicating that maybe I AM!!!""

********

If we would only read and listen to leftest media we would understand the world ...sorry, I do read & listen - but we don't all follow that view of the world - and disagreeing with you is not a high crime - and not necessarily an indication of a character flaw....

Fup

Fupanier,

You have got to be the most patient person on the face of this earth. I think skunk forgot to mention that Bush had bad breath.

So, what will make terrorism go away?

Electing John FARC Kerry? He is an apologist for the Marxist terrorists who have murdered thousands of innocent Colombians for almost 40 years.
Making OBL the Time Man of the Year?
Electing Yasser Arafat to the UN Secretary General position?
Nuking Israel out of existence?

Spain faced a crossroads. Those who bothered to vote voted for a man who has chosen to side with Chirac and Schroeder, two men whose governments - along with Russia - were the most responsible for arming and supplying Hussein.

This is progress?

France and Germany have unemployment rates near or over 10%. France and Germany, especially France, have allowed Muslim immigration while having a declining birthrate.

Is this something to follow?

Chile does not agree with all points of US foreign policy, and that is fine. I am not here to give blanket support for Bush. At times the guy infuriates me. However, Chile, for the past several years, has embraced capitalism. The Chilean economy has grown substantially for more than a decade and has made terrific progress in cutting its poverty rate. Chile now has a free trade agreement with the US. Chile has mandated English as the second language to be taught in all its schools.

All this with the "repressive" Catholic Church that does not even permit divorce!

My point is that Spain had one of two parties to hitch its wagon to, and in my humble opinion, made the wrong choice. Zapatero embraces a failed economic philosphy - socialism - and has backed down to terrorism. Zapatero has politically embraced two losers in Chirac and Schroeder.

What has happened to the brave Spanish, like Cortez, De Soto, and other conquistadores?

What happened to the brave Spanish like Fray Junipero Serra, who left Mallorca at a young age, never to return, to found and build missions in California during the time of the American Revolution?

Apparently they are of the past.

Perhaps soon, if not now, there will be more speakers of castellano in the United States than in Spain.

I did not write this post to denigrate Spain. I love Spanish history and Spanish traditions. I appreciate the contributions of the Spanish to the United States - from the oldest European settlement in the US at St. Augustine, Florida to the Spanish intervention in the American Revolution, and many other items. I love the language, which I do not speak well, regrettably, but I hope to change that in the future. (Mi señora es da Santiago de Cali, Colombia. They speak the best Castillan - just ask them!)

Spain had, and perhaps still has, a unique opportuity to wield inluence in the Western Hemisphere, especially among its former colonies. While many of these countries are still poor, the opportunites for growth in trade, especially with Chile, Costa Rica and even Colombia, is enormous. Even Argentina is slowly rising from its terrible recession. This also provides a gateway for trade with the growing Spanish speaking population in the United States.

A forward looking Spanish government would propose a free trade bloc with other Spanish speaking counties in the Western Hemisphere - many of whom still see Spain as the Mother Country.

Islam still has issues with Spain because spain kicked them out in 1492. Apparently, Spain has forgotten. Think OBL has? I don't.

One other thing - while Spain pulled out of Iraq, Poland and Ukraine stayed in.

Maybe the Slavs are tougher than the Iberians. One cannot use Spains's repression under Franco as an excuse. Poland and Ukraine has it far worse.

Poland stood up to Chirac and Schroeder.
Too bad the Spanish voters did not.

What I find amazing about this topic is how people with no (or very little) knowledge of Spain culture or politics, who most probably didn't know who Zapatero was before he was elected, who haven't got a clue about the main political parties and their latest decisions in Spain cast their opinions so carelesly.

Do you know what an informed opinion is? Because posting is free for everyone...

How can some of you underestimate the way you do the vote of 10 million Spaniards? People who live in Spain and who see what's happening here everyday.

After all, I'm beginning to think ZP was the right choice.

Thank goodness for Skunk! This forum was turning into a Bush love fest!

1) Zapman pulled out of Irak, despite of huge pressure from Aznar, Blair and the US, because he gave his promise before March 11th that he would. He is just honoring what he said he would do, and which 95% of the country feels too.

2) Bush and co. planned the invasion of Iraq long before 9/11. It wasn't only the oil, but to implement a secret plan called the Plan for the New American Century (I might have the name wrong), which was backed by the Neocons, right wing Christians.

3) The US has now lost all claim, all pretense of being the "liberator" of the Iraqui people. The International Committee of the Red Cross wrote Bush in December that 80% to 90% of the prisoners in that hell-hole of a prison were INNOCENT of any crime and rounded up randomly. Now it is coming out the the tortures WERE NOT THE RANDOM ACTIONS OF A FEW, but A PLAN HATCHED BY RUMSFIELD, AND APPROVED BY BUSH! Rummy felt the methods used to loosen the tongues of Al Q. members in Afganistan could be expanded to help gather information in Iraq. CIA interrogators apparently ordered MPs illegally to "soften up" the prisoners by "giving them the works." Now the US is seen as practicing torture in ways similiar, if not as extensively, as Sadaam.

4) the whole war has been botched by idiots. Instead of spawning democracy in the region, Bush and Rumsfield are guaranteeing radical Islamist jihaad in the entire Moslem population of the world. Good going Mr. Bush.

5) now the UN and the rest of the world is going to have to try to clean up the mess, which includes tons of ultra-fine depleted uranium powder from our shells (also in Afganistan and the Bosina), which is causing severe birth defects on a massive scale in those countries. Think about something this toxic and fine (smaller than a virus) in the land of dust storms. It is in the water too. And. . . now will be picked up by the high-altitude winds and DISTRIBUTED WORLDWIDE! Brilliant.

6) the war in Iraq has seriously compromised the efforts in Afganistan and elsewhere. Doesn't anyone remember the economic problems caused in the 70s by the money pit of Vietnam? I won't even start on the disasterous economic and energy polices of the Bush administration. . .

The disastrous economic and energy policies of Bush?

Hey, I'll take a 5.6% unemployment rate - and dropping - over Europe's unemployment rate anyday.

Bush's energy policy was filibustered. It has never been enacted. Therefore it cannot have failed.

War plans for Iraq? At any time, there are war plans for several contingencies in the Pentagon. Iran, Cuba, Syria, etc. That's part of what they do.

The Red Cross? The same organization that fouled up the donations to the survivors of 9/11? I have no faith in that organization. Same with the UN.

The Worldwide Left is all up in arms over the prison scandal - which is being investigated and the perpetrators punished. Meanwhile, terrorists continue to kill and try to kill.

Yet Bush is the one bad guy.

Hope you all LOVE having Shoe Boy in charge.
Hope you all LOVE morphing into France and Germany.

How soon before Andalusia becomes, once again,
al-Andalus?

Go, Shoe Boy, Go!!!

Um, while this pout fest is fascinating, I have just one question: Who is shoe boy?

Ah, never mind I got it. Such intelligent humor to be found on this message board.

Ah, yes, the great unemployment rate of 5.6%. Combine that with the $5.2 trillion deficit that Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy gave us, and we're living in an economic paradise! Oh, wait, but gas prices are at record highs. Is it lack of production, or can it also be blamed on the devaluated dollar, that is causing investors to dump their investments in U.S. currency for bonds? Also, our foreign debt is about 33% of our gross domestic product right now thanks to Bush. Few countries have been able to carry foreign debts of that magnitude for long. Currency devaluation and an economic downturn are the usual result of such poor debt management, both of which would knock the props out from under American world leadership. Did we learn nothing from Argentina?!?! Keep your money in your mattresses if Bush is re-elected, people!

And it's great that your hatred for Arabs and Islam is enough to make you blind to the inconsistent policies of the Bush administration. While Americans couldn't fly in the days after Sept. 11, Bush's best friend, Prince Bandar, also the ambassador to the U.S. from Saudi Arabia - and the man who saw Iraq war plans for Iraq before Colin Powell did, had the Bush people give special permission to fly members of OBL's fam back to the middle east without being questioned by the FBI first.

All you hear all day, IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ. Well, what about Iraq? Saddam was captured, yet M-11 still happened. Why? BECAUSE IRAQ AND AL QAEDA ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE. Al Qaeda is a web of terrorists who, if they do receive state sponsorship, it's probably from that great place I mentioned before, Saudi Arabia. But most likely, they are just small, autonomous cells of crazies that work independently of each other and fund their acts by selling marijuana. Bombing Iraq won't get rid of these. In fact, if there were 100 AQ cells before we bombed two Arab nations to kingdom come, now there are 1,000. And what are we doing about it? Well, Bush is doing his part by cutting funding to local emergency response agencies and local law enforcement agencies. In light of the news today that terrorists will target our rail networks, sounds good doesn't it?!

So call me unpatriotic, go ahead and say that if I don't want Bush in office, then I'm for the terrorists or I'm going to become French, or that I only get my info from the liberal media. YAWN. I've heard it all before. Stick and stones, y'all. It doesn't change the fact that Bush is the most incompetent president we've ever had. I actually miss Bush the Elder!!! :o

Joe,

You seem to have struck a nerve. Way to go, I couldn't agree with you more. :p

Ah Silvita, we've heard all that crap before too. Yeah Saudi Arabia....yawn....

Can't wait for Mr. Heinz to sort it out.

Good comeback! :p I'll ignore the mysoginist implications of your Kerry comment, but yes, 'Mr. Heinz' WILL have to sort it out.

Silvita,

>>Ah, yes, the great unemployment rate of 5.6%.

I would not discount how important that figure is for all Americans from immigrants trying to make survive in a very competitive economy to the possibility for labor mobility. Over the past two decades, all efforts within European policy circles have ben focused on trying to reduce the endemic structural unemployment realities found in Europe. It was no laughing matter under Felipe Gonzalez (22-23 percent unemployment) nor is now in France and Germany, where UE rates are closer to 10%.

>> Combine that with the $5.2 trillion deficit

Try to avoid using absolute $ figures--it undermines your arguments. Besides your number is off by a factor of 10! The US budget deficit is forecast to be about $500 billion and that is relative to a $11.5 Trillion economy. These deficit figures sound HUGE, but given the size of the US economy, it is not really so large as to warrant panic. It is about 4%, large but not extraordinary (in WW2, the US budget deficit hit 30% of GDP!! Also, the budget deficits of France and Germany are roughly the same size in terms of %). In 2002, France had a budget deficit of 3.9%, Germany 4.1%. Don;t really see this comparison emphasized in the press, do you?

Perhaps, you were talking about the current account deficit (our position wrt other countries). It is around is 4+% of GDP. But given our growth rates, productivity rates, our relatively cheap US$, and the incredible buying of US treasury instruments by overseas governments and investors, esp in Asia, the US can "handle" higher deficits than say all of Europe. Also, the flexibility of the US labor market does not fan the flames of inflation as one might think.

So please take the horrors being reported in the press with a grain of salt. Really the worry is not much lower in Europe.

>>that Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy gave us

While I think US taxes are way, way too high, I am also no fan of Bush's handouts to the wealthy. See, we can agree

>>Oh, wait, but gas prices are at record highs. >>Is it lack of production, or can it also be >>blamed on the devaluated dollar, that is >>causing investors to dump their investments in >>U.S. currency for bonds?

The devaluation of the dollar has been great for the US, keeping its export markets very healthy, much to the chagrin of Europe. Our production has been very strong. Think of it. The implosion of the asset bubble. The greatest terrorist act in history. Two wars. A less than competent president, and we still grew in 2001!! Freakin' incredible! If the Chinese want to continue US debt, great, they will bear a large share of the burden of any future US inflation.

>>Also, our foreign debt is about 33% of our >>gross domestic product right now thanks to >>Bush.

I am not sure what you mean by foreign debt, but the US national debt is growing, now 67% of GDP, almost exactly the same size as it was in the middle of Clinton (1995-96). How about our buddies in france and Germany? They are both around 60%. The tragedy is how we have socialized our economy to the point to becoming more "European." If Americans want Europe, move to Spain (debt 55% of GDP and deficit of 0%, 2002 figures. Hate Aznar all you want but he pulled off one of the greatest economic turnarounds in modern European history.

>>Few countries have been able to carry foreign >>debts of that magnitude for long.
You are right. Probably only the US.

>>Currency devaluation and an economic downturn >>are the usual result of such poor debt >>management, both of which would knock the props >>out from under American world leadership.
Well, that cannot really happen since the USD floats and is not fixed. The USD can depreciate but not devalue. The debt may be growing but the interest payments within out debt are far more manageable. Think of. Borrow $10,000 on your credit card at 1% or borrow %8,000 at 5%. Who has a harder time making monthly payments? Bush can jack the debt up since interest rates are soo low.
The worry expressed by the IMF is NOT with the US, but with what potential problems the US economy might cause other countries. Believe me, the US economy is as solid as a rock. Not the case for Germany. The Spanish would be smart NOT to follow Germany lock stock and barrel.

>>Did we learn nothing from Argentina?!?! Keep >>your money in your mattresses if Bush is re->>elected, people!
Sorry, the scare tactics don;t wash. Argentine was once one of the richest countries in the world. Now it lags behind several African countries. It has developed GREAT economists but has a political elite class that are among the worst, most corrupt and most incompetent in the world. They have been a basket case for 70 years. There per capita income is 20-25% of the US.

>>And it's great that your hatred for Arabs and >>Islam is enough to make you blind to the >>inconsistent policies of the Bush >>administration.

Whoa, now that is personal. Far from being anti-Arab, most Americans were pro-Arab and getting fed up with Israel and Sharon. Then came 9-11. Then came Palestinians dancing in the streets. Then came an assortment of macho nose-thumbing, which I found amazing given a Texan president in the office. Everybody loves to point out how Americans are not culturally knowledgable. Well, anyone who understand the US knows Texans have just as much bravado and machismo as anyone. Now 2 1/2 years later, noble quests have dwarfed by incompetence and idiocy on all sides, including the behavior of just about every G-7 government. But please don;t simplify the past four years. Don;t forget that the UN passed resolutions in the 1990s that gave clear instructions to the UN to enforce transgressions. One day, Europe as a whole will actually do what they pledge to do, instead of mastering the art of hot air.

>>So call me unpatriotic, go ahead and say that >>if I don't want Bush in office, then I'm for >>the terrorists or I'm going to become French, >>or that I only get my info from the liberal >>media. YAWN. I've heard it all before.

Once thing that is wonderful about life is that NOTHING stops you from byuing a R/T flight and moving to a 1000 Euro/month room in a flat in the outskirts of Paris. You will find life really hard--unless of course Mommy and Daddy set you up nicely. Now I am being cheeky, but really, it is NOT easy to build a life in Europe if you are not European. A year or two is easy.

I don;t think being anti-Bush is unpatriotic. But somehow thinking there is a svaior or short cut or change of scenary will elimate all ills is simply naive--the very saem naivete that plagues Bush.

>>Stick and stones, y'all. It doesn't change the >>fact that Bush is the most incompetent >>president we've ever had. I actually miss Bush >>the Elder!!!

I will leave by agreeing with you (surprised?). But... if he is so grossly incompetent, is it not downright amazing that Gore lost the predential election (he should have won by a landslide) and that Kerry remains neck and neck with Bush after all of what has happened in the last three years?? Hey Dems, do yourself a favor, FIRE the hell out of all your leadership and start listening to Arianna Huffington, the only pundit/intellectual who makes sense on the left.

So if you are truly patriotic, you will make sure Bush loses by 300 electoral votes and 20% of the pop vote. If you don;t care, then perhaps France is your best option as a place to blow hot air without action to back up anything since...Napoleon?

Excellent post, Almohada. You are an education.
Thank you.

Almohada,

Can't say I can stand Arianna Huffington, but the rest of your post is very good.

I myself would vote Democratic if they could tone down the liberalism. John Kennedy was a good president. Not great, but good.

Gazpacho,
I have to say I from a strategic POV, the Dems would do well to listen to her. She seems to be the one Democrat who can debate using consistent logic. Of course, she was the champion debater at Oxford when there to get her Master's in Economics. Together with Paul Krugman, they are a formidible intellectual team, far dwarfing the hacks that tend to survive the campaign trail. And no, I am not a Democrat. But I cannot wonder why their voices are always pushed aside for more extreme and less intellectually consistent POVs. And yeah, I will admit that she charms me with a wit I don't see enough of in the US. She has fun debating without getting base. I love it.

As for JFK, I am not quite old enough to know much of his admin other than through historical analyses. But you know, I have his Inaugaral address on the laptop. And geez, what a speech!!! And in no way can that speech be interpreted as being from the left or the right.

IMHO, America would be better off from trying to match the ideals in that address or in the examples set by Washington and Lincoln. I am just thinking aloud here, but I think the America we all believe in (in the US and in globally) can be found as much in their words as much as in their deeds. Both on the left and right, it seems that we are as far away from those ideals than we have ever been in my lifetime.

I'm sure everyone has a different reason for reading these posts. Mine is a continuous fascination with the differing views of "Euro-centered" and "US-Centered" individuals. Whether its Iraq or automobiles, there are differing views. In spite of the somewhat emotional tone of some of the posts, it is also interesting that no one is speaking for a consensus on either side. I don't think either Z or W lack honor or intelligence. But I did vote for W and will again, not because he is perfect but because he comes closest to supporting what I believe. I might have voted for Lieberman if I had been given the opportunity.

A substantial number of people are on both sides of every issue on both sides of the pond. (Neither Z nor W were elected unanimously.) But there is a slight edge to a more "active attitude" on the western side of the Atlantic, and my theory is quite straightforward -- natural selection. We are mostly descended from people who took risks by leaving their homelands. And Europe has more people who are descended from people that didn't. There is a risk gene -- "According to Dr. Johnsgard, the profiles of racecar drivers, parachutists, fighter pilots and pilots in general aviation are very similar and very different from men and women who engage in team sports." (http://leisurefitness.fitdv.com/new/articles/article.html?artid=285)

The willingness to take risk tends to create the behavior so many people (on both sides) find repellant, and by the way the opposite behavior has the same effect on those with the "risk gene."

The difference in life style created by the way the US was settled also creates differences in how we think. Population density is a big factor and the inevitable reliance on the automobile as a result probably has an influence as well.

What we ought to do is strive to undersand the other's viewpoints, avoid paranoia, and enjoy the board.

I wanted to avoid any individual responses on this discussion but I have to say that I am sick unto death of hearing the "stolen election" thing. There is a reason that we have an electoral college, and it is very similar to the recent EU issue on how the newly admitted countries would vote. In our form of government we are a lot closer to the EU than to individual countries. If we allowed the popular vote to select the president smaller states would have no voice. In the last election it was Florida that got the publicity because the vote was close, but it was Tennessee (his "home" state) that cost Gore the election. Had he won here, Florida would have been a non-issue. If the EU ever goes to a popular vote scheme, how much influence will Portugal have?

ernie

De acuerdo

Almohada,

Believe it or not, I'm not trying to be contentious, for once. Maybe I'm thinking of a different person, but isn't Arriana Huffington the lady with the cute, slightly foreign accent? I've heard her on talking head programs and thought she was laughable, and I couldn't follow any of her arguments. But like I said, maybe I'm mistaken her for someone else. But then again, everyone says our last president was such an awesome speech giver, but I couln't stand watching his face let alone listen to him talk.

I was only five or six years old when Kennedy was assasinated, so I don't remember too much about his admin myself, except I remember the Viet Nam war was ramping up. Of course his death made him a martyr, and nowadays, he gets, IMHO, a little more credit than he deserves, but I think he did a good job. I asked my Dad about him. He told me that JFK wouldn't have been campaigning in Texas in the first place if he was as popular as he is now portrayed. I too am impressed by his speeches, especially his speeches about fiscal policy. I think that even the right in this country could take lessons from him.

Well I think that Z looks like Mr. Spook from Start Trek!!!Don´t u think? I really want to pluk his eyebrows, jajajaj

I think that both Aznar and Zapatero have good and bad points each of them. I really don´t beleive in such a thing as the perfect candidate, since at the end of the day, they are going to look for their own interests.
Aznar fails for his prepotency and ego centrism. Efficient economically (sorry guys, but is true, at least to me) but totally failed in diplomacy and international affairs. I see him as abrupt and clear in his decisions (even though some may be wrong) and truly believes in what he says. And another thing, is that PP acted like one unified team with One clear consistent message amongst all channels.

Whereas ZAapatero is more concerned in gaining the sypmapthy of the "pueblo"" I see him like an actor trying to touch people´s hearts when he talks. I´m still waiting for him to tell us how exactly is he going to achieve everything that he has suggested. On the other hand, I recognise, that he is a fresh new breeze in Spanish Government since I really don´t agreee in having the same political wing in Government for ever. IS good to have a change. Specially if that changes seems more diplomatic and human than the prepotency of Aznar.

Conclusion: None of them is perfect, and there will be never the perfect president. And this aint a suprise to anyone, we do all in the end, look for and take care of our own interests. I think is impossible to take correct decisions in al the different matters that affect a country: economics, social, international, etc and very difficult to achieve the right balance.
What may be great for u may affect me and the other way round.

Anitayole for President :p

Anitayole, may you "Live long and prosper." hehehe...

While I don't agree with the statement "...totally failed in diplomacy and international affairs" (I think that one of PP's strong points was foreign affairs) I think that Anitayole's post makes much sense

It is a good insight explained with clarity.

Fernando

Anitayole,

From the pictures I've seen of the man, he looks more to me like a Spanish Bob Newhart. Sorry Bob and sorry Mr. Z. It really isn't important what he looks like, it's much more important that he does the best for Spain as within his power. If he does this, he will be a great president.

UYUYUYyyy gazpacho!!!! i don´t agree with you. In my opinion , in politics, looks and image are as important as decisions. IS Pure marketing!!!!!!
I tell u something, majority of population are sooo sick of promises that are starting to rely more in how good a politician is in feeling empathy and serendipity (ole, this is my new word of the day), and the image he gives in terms of warmth, charm, leardershipo skills, charisma etc...
Image is important for international affairs,for example it can attract investment into the country, etc
I think is important for a lot of people. Although u are right in saying, that what really matters are the decisions and actions being made and taken. But unfortunately, majortity of population go for the image, don´´t u think??
And i don´t care what anyone says, I really think Zapatero should pluck his eyebrows!

Anywho, changing of subject. I think I´m goign to propose to Zp, that if they forecast a future war, the leading figures of politics should sort out their differences with a football match!

Anitayole for president :p

YEAH! Anita y Olé for president!!
I agree.
It's time for us to have a presidenta.
Go Anita.

Gazpacho,
Unfortunately, Anitaoyle is right on the importance of imagery for politics. I personally think it is horrible, but the fact remains that the uneducated masses will follow the image (e.g. the success of two of least educated actors EVER in the Philippines...my goodness). And sadly enough the educate pupulace is just as smitten with the cult of celebrity.

But if there is a slick salesman who is able to assemble a first-rate cabinet and set out a clear agenda that will benefit America home and abroad and America for the present and the future, then I will bite my tongue at the ridiculous stage props.

My criticism of the Bush administration, as far less to do with Bush than with the Administration, as his team truly frightens me. I think the Moore-type personal attacks on Bush undermine Moore's political strategy, and wimply has the effect of galvanizing the right. I don't care if Bush fumbles at the mike (I abhor public speaking). By attacking Bush the man, the right will rally to defend him come hell or high water. Personally, this is why Gore lost in 2000 and Kerry is barely leading now after all that that has happened. If Kerry makes this "personal" he will lose, as he is a snake.

On thing I have long admired about Europe is there ability to look beyond looks. But I see that is changing with media machine of Berlousconi(sp?) and the personal villification of Aznar. So although I have to agree with Anitaoyle, I truly wish it weren't so. Leave imagery to entertainment.

Almohada y Anitayole,

I didn't mean to make the emphasis of my last post about the looks of a politician. I simply find it distasteful and shallow to comment about how people, public or private, look. After all, beauty, eye of the beholder....etc.

But if our election here in the U.S. is nothing but a beauty contest, which it might well be, I'm certainly not worried about Mr. Heinz beating President Bush.

i'd just like to respond briefly to the "stolen election" comment mentioned a few posts above. as someone who works in politics in the U.S., i am intimately acquainted with the inner workings of elections. you're right, florida did receive the lion's share of publicity, when many many other factors went into gore "losing" the election. for instance, is anyone familiar with the term 'gerrymandering?' i won't go into specifics, but basically gerrymandering is when the majority party in any given state redraws congressional districts to eliminate unwanted voting blocs. for instance in florida, the 22nd congressional district is this skinny swatch of land stretching from palm beach county to miami, drawn by republicans. it skirts all of the poorer, working class, ethnic, i.e. traditionally democratic areas. that's just fine, dems do it too. but what i'm getting at is that it is really really easy to talk in generalizations, to regurgitate rhetoric gleaned from newspapers and the internet, without having any idea of the mechanisms of politics. it's a shame.

i for one haven't formed an opinion of zapatero. what i do know is that the spaniards i know are thankful that they finally have somebody in power who isn't an overgrown sycophant afraid of standing up to the big bad u.s.

-mls

Which is just an error. I agree that the guy might had some point in bringing back the troops, but he has stirred antiwar sentiments and linked it with a irrational antiamericanism. He takes care to to say "US was in an error! This war was horrible! bla bla bla", he always say "Bush was in an error!..." BUT, he continuously accept others to do otherwise.

Time will say if he has only a fachade or there is something behind. I bet for the first one.

Fernando

Well said, Fernando. Only time will tell! After all Zapatero has good friends like that good looking Jacques Chirac, and that cute German chancellor Schroeder. What a great trio!

Well, what really struck my funnybone was the once again mordant issue of those "@#$%" chads.

As a proud Floridian, I am sick and tired of hearing the snide comments bout the 2000 election. hey we've been voting for years and nothing like this has happened before.

My husband, blames the Chicago connection. He
predicted we were in for exciting times. "God almighty, Gore is bringing Daley from Chicago. That's where they count the votes of the dead, you know!" Indeed, Chicago native William Daley (son of Richard J. and brother of Richard M.) was Gore's campaign chief.

To quote Gomer Pyle, shazam!!!

But the drama doesn't end there, conspiracy theorists now want the unused paper chads!

[img]http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I46744-2004May21L[/img] During the 2000 recount in Florida, Judge Robert Rosenberg used a magnifying glass to determine the state of a chad on a ballot in Fort Lauderdale. (Alan Diaz -- AP)

Sorry, in relation to the electoral college, gerrymandering is a non-sequitor. States vote as a whole, and gerrymandering only happens within a state.

ernie

Hiya, sorry if my question is uncultured but what is gerrymandering??

I really can´t be bothered commenting anymore on ZP, Aznar, bla bla...etc zzzzzzzzz :o :o :o but I wouldn´t mind talking about the European Union!!!

Right guys, question, i want to know people´s opinions on this: do u think Uk should go on the Euro? do u think their economy will remain one of the strongest without the Euro?do u think they wouldn´t benefit by it????
Im really intrigued in knowing stuff about this matter.
I have a lot of arguments with one of my friends (he is english)

Right you guys, have a wonderful day, today the sun is shining!!!!

Anitayole !!!

OH! nearly forgotten,

..And our friend almohada said:

"On thing I have long admired about Europe is there ability to look beyond looks. But I see that is changing with media machine of Berlousconi(sp?) and the personal villification of Aznar".

Almohada, that is funny u say that.... U are soooooooo right!!! But I think is more of a direct result of the love affair between Aznar and Bush...Spain,(and no offense to Americans) and in general Europe, is becoming more and more and more Americanised!!! I´m not saying this is good nor bad. I´m just saying, because u just need to see the type of advertising (very in ure face), the american way of living, starbucks soon will be in every corner, ben & jerrys (mmm lovely!)
...but is true, that we are seeing a change in Europe, and I can totally see it in Spain. After 4 nearly 5 years of living out of Spain and then returning, I totally see some of the differences....
for example!!! we have started to do the cheesey movie scenes, of slow emotion, crying, and sentimental music in the background!!!! that is sooooo American!!!! hahahhahaha....!!!!!

"Hiya, sorry if my question is uncultured but what is gerrymandering??"

Nothing uncultured about the question. Gerrymandering is the practice of drawing political districts so that one party's voters are favored over another. Unfortuantely practiced to some extent or another all over the US. Because it is within a state, it cannot significantly impact a statewide election. Typically used to change state or federal legislative districts to protect whichever party is in charge of redistricting. Redistricting ususally happens as a result of the US Census every 10 years.

ernie

Ok, ok, people. Let me see. This is a very political forum I see. Almohada say she/he is not trying to light the people feelings. Its playing with fire... Nobody can believe that after seeing yours msg.
Firt of all. If you want to support Bush you must know that International Admmisty says USA foreign politicy is the most dangerous all over the world and its incresing the insecurity, the terrorist and the war there where USA is trying to save the world.
Im not Socialist and for me Zapatare is just a proyect, We will see but I can say something is Spain thanks to him the goverment respect the public opinion. I was in the protest march against the war one year ago. The 90% per cent o the people was against it. So, whats wrong if Zapatare listen the people in this specific issue (no mention 13M). Im from Madrid and a feel more secure after this decision. I want a better country and a goberment closer to the peopleo worries. I wanna live in peace and if Spain has any role in the war it will be under ONU control and not under USA´s. So please, dont worry about the next Al-Andalus. We do...more than ever after Bush´s politicy. Dont try to be the new american Cid Campeador. We will call you if we need it. take it easy.
We want to take care of our people and after that save the world if can or at least try to do it. We dont have a goverment very close to the petrol´s bussnines and we believe in Europe. Maybe Europe dont believe in us or in itself, maybe Im a dreamer but Im not the only want...you know the song...I dont hate Bush I hate Aznar for supporting the war and put to Spain in the AlQ mind.
I want to say something else. Americans and their goverment its not the same but they supported Bush and most of them supported the war before and now. I know they dont deserve to be blamed for, most of them are to ignorant to know whats going on. Im sorry but thas true and most of them dont want to open their eyes. 500 soldiers died in Irak for the moment. Great? Why? to save the world, to stop the terrorism. I dont remeber that USA tried to save spanish people from ETA terrorism in the past... The war didn solve any problem, the terrorist is even worst now and the world is a little bit less saefty cause USA. Its a long list...Ah, Almohada congratulations for believe in your country but dont believe too much. It doesnt deserved it.
And congratulations about the USA economy even with two wars, (you forget more but anyway..) But apart of that tell me something good made for the Bush politicy.

Que penita de mundo...

Whoa,

I sure am glad we Americans are ignorant and not as enlightened as someone, say from Madrid. Thanks for taking the time to indulge us with the truth, which you've seen to have cornered the market on.

By the way, who the heck is Amnesty International to be telling us how to run our country? Would you like them telling you how to run yours?

Thank you fine citizen of the world for telling us about our ignorance. It's amazing that this country can accomplish anything with us having trouble trying to figure out how to put our pants on!

If only we had your genius!

Fup

...And our friend Gazpacho said.....

"By the way, who the heck is Amnesty International to be telling us how to run our country? Would you like them telling you how to run yours? "

My answer: JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJJAJAJAAJJAJAJAJAJAJAAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA HAHAHAH oh my god...ejem ejem ...WHAT THE HELL ARE U SAYING??? America (sorry, not America but the Politicians, the people in power of America)is always telling other countries how to run their country!!!!!!! and IMPOSSING which form of government should be in all countries, ..so... I don´t agree with u there coleguita!!!!!
I have a few Afganistan friends....and they always say the same thing...I wish Occident minded their own business!

For God Sake It was America´s politicians who put Bloddy Sadam Hussein, then decided to take him out, chose the afgani government, ..and a long list of etceteras..... and then Bush says, that DEMOCRACY is the CORRECT FORM OF GOVERNMENT!! ...HELLOOOO BUSH but how the hell can u tell people to live in Democracy if u allow for Death Capital Punishment , and engage ureself in war and FORCE ure way of thinking with regards how the rest of the world should live!!!!!!!!
What kind of an example of Democracy is that ???? and the same comment goes for our Friend Tony (The Tiger) Blair and for Joseph Mary Aznar. Oh sorry!! ..what u saying??? Ah!!! u went to war to save the world, and to save the irakis??, mmmmmmm I wonder if they are as concered for the irakis as for the people in Sudan, Ruanda, Burundi, Somalia, Zimbawe ....and etc etc etc
The hell with them three..!!!they have put the entire world in danger by playing God!

And Charlost..that was harsh to say that majority of American´s are ignorant..I mean DO U KNOW THEM ALL PERSONALLY??there is also a lot of ignorance in Spain. I think is very non-tolerantnarrowminded when someone declares comments such as ...."cause u americans" ...
At least in USA they have a strong sense of Nationality, whereas here in Spain we are all divided and u get called FACHA for carrying a Spanish flag.. ridiculous!!I don´t know who is more ignorant

Anitayole,

I'm convinced now that you should be president. Your reasoning is certainly worthy of any politician. Too bad a bunch of us ignorant Americans don't vote for the Spanish president.

I have a very good Afghanstani friend and he totally agrees with our stand in Afghanistan. Seems that being captured and tortured by the Russians made quite an American out of him. He couldn't stand what the Taliban was doing to his country. He has nothing but contempt for Bin Laden, which he calls Uncle Ben.

I know that it's useless to say it again, but we would have let the Middle-East be if they left us alone. So, if they don't want our interference, they should tend to their own knitting. But yep, I agree, we tell nations how to run themselves when they don't leave us or their neighbors alone. We have the means to impose our will when provoked.

The fact that our security is compromised during a war, as pointed out by Amnesty International via charlost, indicates they have a firm grasp on the obvious. Amnesty International must have quite the "think tank" to come to this conclusion. Now this is something to laugh about.

Quick note Anitayole -

While much of your comments deserve a response - I just wanted to note two things. One, Bush just quietly brokered a settlement in the Sudan after 20 years of bloody civil war:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/05/27/1085641647017.html?from=storylhs

The other is thanks for noting the biased nature of the "Americans are ignorant" statement.

Fup

Hello again everybody. I have to correct myself about my not very affortunated comment about the americans. Its true I was rude and harsh so Im sorry. Anyway, its true that in Spain a lot of people is ignorant as well but most of the people was against the war. Maybe some of them (me too) are ignorant but we apreciate the humans rights insted of looking for the petrol and make bussiness with the people s life. I belive in another world but not with the USA leadership. Its leading us to the destruccion and the war, fighting against in the past their political friends (Irak, ,Nicaragua) For me the Americans dont try to change their politicians, maybe they are not interested o maybe they prefer a unfair world, but their unfair world. Please its knew for everybody that mayority of americans are very conservative and very patriotic. Well in Spain is not like that, and maybe to show your flag in front of people is not so good (maybe because I very traumatic histoty and a quite amount of nationalities on our territory) but not being patriotic do not mean anything wrong, for me its the oppositte cause it means more democratic spirit if you respect the everyone else. We can say I dont like my country I dont like my flag I feel myself different and everything is O.K. Its up to you. Try to say that in the middle of any street in America. I know some American people. I met them in Europe and most of them admit that americans are too conservative and they believe in their freedom but not in everybodyelse s
The problem with the patriotism is that . sometimes your love for your country do not permit you to see the reality, the truth. the truth is tha USA, not their people (a mayority support Bush, but anyway) is ****ing up the rest of the world, and many others with them but with the USA leadership, Spain in recent months.
I will finish. About IA, international Ammnisty? I dont pretend to be lead by it. I dind say that but this organitation is saying that America is making the world more difficult to live in so...I think IA has good enought reputation to believe in it.But I dont know them to know something so obvious.

Peace my friends

As I recall back in March, Mr. Z said he had to pull Spanish troops out of Iraq IMMEDIATLY and without delay because there was NO WAY that Iraq would be granted any sort of soveriegnty and there was NO WAY that ANY SORT of UN resolution authorizing an AMERICAN led force after 30 June would EVER be agreed upon.

That was back in March. Today Iraq has the beginings of an open and free government. The UN Security Council has by unanimous ageement approved a U.S. led multinational force to assisit the Iraqi people in their quest for a free nation, something they have never had before.

Every rationale that Z used to abandon the Iraqi people and leave the U.S. alone in Iraq have been exposed as falsehoods and lies. Spain stands with egg on its face before the world community. Compare Spain to Britain, Poland and South Korea. They didn't run away.

I'm no Spainiard, and I don't presume to know what is best for Spain. I can only speak as an American. But Spain today looks foolish and cowardly. Spain is utterly untrustworthy. The honorable people of Spain have your current Prime Minister to thank for that.

I would agree with your statements Kurt, but I would say the Spanish Government, looks foolish, not Spain. The Spanish Government's lies have been exposed as being cowardly. I definitely agree that Spaniards in general, are an honorable people. Good post Kurt.

Well, I agree with Kurt completely. A nation's soul can be judged by its utter Government. And we have a government that has lied in this issue.

Simply put, ZP used a very serious matter (Iraq's War) and the pain of the victims in a irresponsible way to achieve the power, no matter the consequences for our country.

Now he supports the UN resolution, but he won't send soldiers again to Iraq, not even instructors, cause he know he will loose the public support he needs to maintain control of the Government (other parties could censor him).

In the end, Spain lost a great opportunity of becoming a true and recognised political power in the world for nothing. Now USA are enhancing ties with Morocco and making it a main ally, which clearly endanger spanish interests in the zone (politically and economicly).



Fernando

Z did what he said he would if he was elected. The people voted for him on that principle. Whether or not it will prove to be an adverse situation to Spain's government remains to be seen.

The biggest problem is that he didn't handle the withdrawal without opening his mouth. Had he just did what he said he intended doing it would have been less of an issue, but he couldn't keep his big mouth shut and had to take verbal shots at both Blair and Bush, then turn it against our nations as well.

Only a fool makes the mistake of adding insult to injury when it comes to old friends. He made it very difficult for his government to gain any support from either nation on any issues of importance to Spain.

Of course Z has Chirac and Schroeder, who will be glad to help him, as long as he toes the line and does exactly what they say in EU - without question.

Its amazing how one man's mouth can set diplomacy back a quarter of a century when it would have been better if he kept it shut.

Then.... we have Bush, don't we? And the game goes on and on......

Wolf

Wolf, the problem is that we don't have Schroeder and Chirac either. They seek their own benefit disregarding the common benefit of European Union.

Now ZP has broken links with USA, UK and Algeria, and we still don't have France, Germany or Morocco as allies instead. So we are more isolated than ever.

Fernando

My two bits worth -
Kudos to the comments posted so succinctly by both Wolf & Fernando - honest and insightful takes on the subject. Gracias!

Thanks to you Puna

Fernando