My letter to the people of Spain

My Dear Spaniards,

It is with shock, anger, and sadness that I find myself writing to you. My heart hurts for the Spanish people today, and my prayers and best wishes are yours. The tragedy of mangled train coaches is the failure of President Bush to be honest with the Spanish people, and the world.

President Bush does not speak for me, and I tell you that it is on the innocent spilled blood of the slain Spanish that Bush will slip and fall. It is my fervent hope that his fall shakes this world, and the people of the United States into waking up to the lies and crimes of the Bush administration. There is no reason Spain should pay such a price, and I am humbled by her resolve.

With my sincerest sympathies,
Wally Wilson
Seattle, WA, USA

Yeah, Bush caused the 3/11 attacks. Idiot.
France Receives Threat From Islamists

I didn't see France supporting us. What's your excuse there, Einstein?

I'm sorry MadridMan, people that don't research and buy into the first thing they hear just, quite frankly, piss me off.

There are likely many things that you haven't yet seen in this world.

1. I'm not an idiot.
2. I didn't "buy into" anything.
3. I have done my research.
4. I'm entitled to my opinion.
5. I'm entitled to let the people of Spain know how I feel.

I thank you for taking the time to share your _Opinion_.

YOU blamed Bush for what happened to the Spaniards. I would like an explanation....if you can provide me with one. I have already posted something about France getting terroristic threats even though they didn't support us. Can you elaborate on what YOU would do...oh wise one?

Yes, blaming Bush OR Aznar for the attacks is assinine. TERRORISTS are to blame.

You are out of line. See item #4 in my previous post.

I was expressing my sentiment to the people of Spain, and it appears that you want to fight.

It is truly unfortunate that you feel that way. You are certainly entitled to your own beliefs and opinions, and I do not owe you even the courtesy of an explanation for having my own opinion.

Live and let live? I wonder.

Ok, explain how this:

"The tragedy of mangled train coaches is the failure of President Bush to be honest with the Spanish people, and the world."

...is even REMOTELY the truth.

Good night, Kevin. Sleep well knowing that I do not owe you any explanation at all. If you wish to make war because I expressed my feelings and my opinion, please continue to do it by yourself.

I will sleep well and you do the same in Washington knowing that I served 8 years protecting your right to free speech and right to exist in any aspect you choose.

You do, however, owe an explanation to your accusations as something like that, without supporting facts, is usually considered inadmissable.

Oh, you _only_ served eight years? Do you habitually poke hot sticks at people you don't know?

I served twelve years in the U.S. Coast Guard, was injured in the line of duty, and am now medically retired and a disabled American Veteran.

An opinion is an opinion. I owe you nothing. Please figure out a way to cope with life from this point forward. Please stop poking at me. You are really, really out of line here. You are being abusive.

It is rather uncouth of you to have pushed things this far. Now you are simply ignored.

Coast Guard?

.....nevermind.

BTW, I was also injured in the line of duty. Of course they call it "Wounded in Action" when you are in the other branches. SGT, USArmy, 24th Sig. attached to the 10th Mountain Division, Somalia, Africa.

Oh brother. What an exchange.

Wally is entitled to his opinion, Kevin, and he's thankfully expressing his opinion in a mature and intelligent manner. Thanks for that, Wally. And Kevin, your sarcasm to Wally by calling him "Einstein" is bordering on name-calling. Careful.

I think it might be about time to start a new category for those who'd like to express their displeasure with the national elections in Spain. The exchange in these threads is like a broken record and we're repeating ourselves over and over with responses. Frankly, I'm tired of it. Maybe a forum category on POLITICS should be created and that way those of us (like me) who would like to avoid these topics could simply avoid that forum category altogether.

Anyone else think a forum category on POLITICS would be useful?

Saludos, MadridMan

I take affront to the letter too. To say that Bush is responsible for 3-11 is an irresponsible statement to say the least. Obviously a statement made because the person hates Bush, not based on any other criteria. I certainly don't consider it a mature and intelligent statement when it's intended to make a personal political statement.

Although I am ardently against Bush, I believe that a little research would have told Wally that planned attacks against Spain had been in the offing long before the invasion of Iraq. In fact, the Andalusia statement was coupled with the invasion of Afghanistan. A legal action.... if you wish to call Iraq illegal..... which the UN essentially is involved in.

To me, using a statement like that is wrong, and as far as I'm concerned is bashing.

Wally can send a letter to anyone he likes, but lets face it, this was posted here to create a reaction, and he got it. What would anyone expect an American to do? Just accept what he said as fact? Hardly! This certainly can't be a one-sided board either.

Wolf

I don't get how blaming anything on Bush can be offensive...
Are you his relatives?

Deibid,

Just a reminder as to what an "Impartial view" you have of the situation, and your love for the US.

deibid
Full Member
Member # 3929

posted 03-16-2004 10:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, our country will never be like the USA.
I like it that way. So do most of this site's regular posters. Please, STOP BASHING!

[ 03-16-2004, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: deibid ]

--------------------
Fanta Limón! mmmmmmmmm...


deibid
Full Member
Member # 3929

posted 03-16-2004 10:26 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, MM!
Do you know? what most 'me cabrea' about these new posters is that they come here and they don't know anything about Spain, they just come and do some bashing because we have 'betrayed USA'.
WHAT??! Betray USA? They don't know that most citizens didn't want to become USA's allies.
Did you know that a referendum held in 1982 said NO to NATO?
Well, new posters, go away and eat your 'freedom fries'!

--------------------
Fanta Limón! mmmmmmmmm...

deibid
Full Member
Member # 3929

posted 03-16-2004 11:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Kevin.
I don't consider you a basher, BTW, good manners are always wellcome.
In response to your message: You are right about the french in WWII.
Now let's think about Spain... where was the USA when FRANCO, A FASCIST DICTATOR FRIEND OF HITLER, ruled our country for 40 years?
answer: supporting him.
We don't have any reasons to be USA's allies.
Not that it's a bad thing, anyway.

--------------------
Fanta Limón! mmmmmmmmm...

deibid
Full Member
Member # 3929

posted 03-15-2004 11:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"just that the election handed the terrorists another victory"

That IS disputible because it's not true.
It makes me terribly sad that someone thinks like this.
Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY had in mind the terrorists' will when they headed for the election.
There were endless rows of electors with things clear in their mind.
If we had not voted, THEN the terrorists would have won.
BUT WE VOTED, and had the highest number of votes of the last 25 years.
Aznars gov has made a lot of mistakes, and it has been punished, that's how it works.
If you don't believe in Spain's democracy, then I'll keep my right not to believe in America's.
And I will remind you how George W won his election.

[ 03-15-2004, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: deibid ]

Nothing you say would be considered of value because you hate us. As for your comment about me being related to Bush, would that be any of your business in the first place?

As for "bashing," you certainly took a stand earlier, as can be seen in one of your comments. You didn't like it when Spain was being bashed, but if it's anti-American, that's fine.

Then you use a serpentine method of saying the US supported Hitler and Franco because we had normalized relations with the Spanish government. The last time I looked at my history book, it said we fought against the Nazis, not with them.

Sorry! You hate America, and you cuddle up to any American who would say something bad about our country. Really now! Isn't that kind of two-faced when you wanted the "ugly posts" against the Spanish elections removed?

As for the nations being allies, fortunately there are cooler heads than yours running the government. They'd laugh in your face if you said they should avoid being part of anything with the US. IF they agreed with you, what would you do? Close your borders to all Americans?

But thanks for your caustic remark anyway. It gave me a chance to reflect on your true attitude.

Wolf

Thanks for the support, Wolf. I like the potpourri you have posted, it looks like you are really interested on me.

Remarks:
1.-I NEVER said that the USA supported Hitler, it's written in your own post. I see that copy-paste does not guarantee careful reading.
And yes, a normalized relationship with a dictator is form of support.

2.- I do not hate the USA. I was there in 8-2001, on top of WTC, I enjoyed the visit, I met nice people, and I cried and suffered a month later at home.

3.- I always have been kind and I have never insulted anyone. See my 'relationship' with Kevin. It's not the case with others.

4.- Being an ally or not being an ally has nothing to do with the things you say (i.e. closing borders). I mean that the stupid 'coallition against terror' is that: stupid
There are better and LEGAL ways to do things against terror.

My POLITICAL thoughts have nothing to do with hate. I do not hate an entire country just because their president is a nerd. I have a more open mind.

Sir,

That is exactly what you posted, and is cut and paste. If you edit the text to make it read something else it will show on the bottom. But rest assured, they are your exact posts. I did nothing to them. You can change them if you want, but we'll all know you did.

I repeat your comments in regards to Hitler and Franco;

But if that helps you avoid appearing as cynical as you are, so be it. Who am I to rain on your parade.

As for your hatred, I didn't say you hated Americans, I insinuated you hated our government and everything it stands for. I don't think it would make any difference who was in office because your posts say it loud and clear.

As for my interest in you, it's very little, except to try to understand why someone can feel the way they do. I saw nothing of substance in what you offered to make me believe you had a point to make that was able to be researched. Had I seen anything I would have researched it before making a post, not take you to task for what I consider nothing but bitter remarks.

Fortunately my concerns for Spain, the new government, and the people, doesn't have any strings attached like yours does to ours. We'd never be friendly nations if everyone felt like you.

Wolf

I still fail to see where I did say that the US supported Hitler.

Insults should never be part of a discussion

Anyway: Not Bush nor Aznar were responsibles of the killings the other day. Al-Qaeda (or whoever was behind the attacks) was the unique responsible of the killings.

Fernando

Hi Madrid Man,
I don't envy you. My two cents worth wrt your question on opening up a Politics forum.

This is what I would do...

(1) Prohibit all politics henceforth on all forums
(2) As you proposed, open up a Politics thread, but one with a cache that empties everyday.
(3) Restrict the hours or even the days
(4) Consider weaning us off until the Politics is completely shut off...

While I think the past week has been extraordinary and unbelievably sad, I for one am immeasureably grateful that you gave us a long leash with which to vent considerable emotions from about a zillion different angles. I learned a lot of good things and a few not so good things, but such is life, ¿no?

However, where I reside normally--mind you I am in Madrid for a contract job--I used to belong to a message board. Even without such a dramatic and tragic event, that board deteriorated into ENDLESS streams of nastiness, etc. When you throw politics, race, patriotism, etc. on top of tragedy and emotion, it is a recipe for tremendous negativity. Like debating the existence of God. An Endless do loop...

You sit atop a giant pressure cooker. You opened up the valve. Much of the venting has been done. Seal things up before contaminants enter your cooker. I say this not because I don't have opinions or political POVs. I do, and very strong ones. However, I am mindful of the noble raison d'etre of this website. And IMHO, you would wise to slowly and definitely turn down the flame to off.

And to my friends, Spaniards and Americans in particular. We are in two countries that are themselves equally divided. Much that was said over the past week, reflects the tension within our own two countries. Neither Spain nor the US is completely united for or against this or that action. We are citizens of two countries in which the sitting leader received less than 50% of the vote. We are two countries in which our two major parties have much ill will and cyncism for the other. We are discussants in which there is considerable arrogance and contempt for the other side within our own country.

Suffice to say that many of us are likely to have more in common with our counterparts in the other country than with our fellow citizens.

MM has given us a long leash this past week. While it is tempting to keep on driving my point through thick skulls who don't seem to "get it," I am sure others have the exact same sentiments--partially because I know my noggin' is as thick as they come. While spirited debate can be wonderful and very stimulating, it would also be terribly unfair to MadridMan who has labored long and hard to built up a site in which the lefties of the US could bond with the lefties of Spain and the righties of the US could bond with the righties of Spain...AND...where through love of art, music, food, and travel plenty of cross breeding could be fomented !!

SO I am voluntarily withdrawing from further political debate as I have said all that I needed to say and hopefully made a few friends in the process. If we can all take away from this the really love that I have seen on this board for the past four months, there is hope that the bonds between the US and Spain can remain as strong as ever, though we will need to work hard as the the tides of geopolitics are such that we will ALWAYS be swimming upstream. And frankly my hair is graying faster than I want!!

My two centimos de valor...

Cheers, A

Almohada,
I vote for cross-breeding! :p hehee... Thanks for your comments/suggestions for the proposed political category here on the message board. No way to empty the cache everyday though, sorry to say.

Revealed my luddite tendencies...threw in cache for good measure!! I was thinking it would be easier than searching one post at a time!

Howdy Wolf -

It is unfortunate that you take affront to my letter. It was not posted to "get a reaction," it came directly from my own heart.

I did not say anything about any invasion, anywhere -- not Iraq, not anywhere. I won't say anything more about this.

Lastly, I do not hate anyone...not even Bush, and I thank you for taking the time to share with me your own perspective. Your message has meaning to me; we simply disagree. I respect that, and you.

Wally,
IF your post was directed at me, I did not take affront. Actually, I was responding to the ever widening discussion. In fact I did not even know what you had posted.

My worry was that if MM kept a political forum, that it would get heated to boiling almost instaneously. A mini-example, for you: What has come out of Z's mouth since winning the election has been insulting, incredibly ignorant and doubly naive and may do more damage to US-Spain relations than Bush since the insults are directed directly at US. Instead of entering his office gracefully and with respect to the enormity of the office, Z has decided to openly mock the efforts of the US and lives sacrified by all who tried to help the silent majority of Iraqis. MOst of these folks don't bomb buildings out of habit but rather want to live peacefully without the spectre of state-sponsored terrorism. End of mini-example.

Now imagine a virulent defense of this opinion (without the diplomacy) and then picture the shrill and sophomoric tit-for-tats that will soon fly around. The potential ugliness that would ensure would be 180º opposite of the respect shown toward posters in the fourth months that I have been on the Board.

Nothing to do with you and your particular posts. Take it from a wizened expat, political debate can open up wounds that were not present beforehand.

Whoops!

My post was in reply to Wolf's comments. Ugh.

I've addressed my oversight now.

Wally, I personally like your initial letter, as it does reflect my own feelings and those of some of my politically-active friends. I know not everyone would agree with it (or with me on these issues), but I am glad you said it. I often want to grab a microphone after Bush speaks and remind my friends in other countries that he doesn't always speak for me. (Neither did Bill Clinton, by the way, and neither will John Kerry--though I prefer their decision-making styles to Bush's!)

So I think it's great that you put your views out there to share with people in Spain. We live in divided countries these days, and it doesn't hurt to remind people of that. Just because Zapatero will have the biggest microphone won't mean that he speaks for all Spaniards, either. Thanks again, Wally!

Maybe we should all take the weekend off (starting now) and stay away from the forum to calm down, clear our heads, and start thinking about other things. This thread has my head spinning.

Wally posts his feelings intelligently, calmly, and WHAM BAM! ATTACK!!! He didn't deserve that. Some calm, insightful opposition would have been fine but someone calls him names?! Not fair.

Almohada, let's see how the political forum goes and if things begin to "melt down" I'll just delete the whole thing in one fell swoop. I can see spending most of my time babysitting in that category trying to keep people off of each other.

Saludos, MadridMan

You poor thing Madridman! Of all the people here, I think you deserve the weekend break best. Why not freeze the board temporarily( you can always blame a technical glitch) on the weekend so no one can post-if that's possible- and head down to a spa resort or something like that and get yourself a nice & relaxing massage.

You can't post anything in these forums without getting attacked, having your words turned upside down and inside out. We all have opinions and to call another person an "idiot" is simply uncalled for.

MadridMan I don't envy your job at all. I admire your posts and the fact that you are trying your best to make this board the best it can be.

Thank you.

Wally.. thank you for your words.

MadridMan - I'm fine, no bruises, and nothing that will leave a scar. ;-) Truly, if I had been more awake (instead of staying up late to study for finals) I would have just stopped after the second post. I ended up feeding the negative energy that was coming back at me. Either way, it is not possible for me to stay angry or hold a grudge, so things will be fine for me.

I made a spinning head for you, also. It seems you are in need of one now.


Jennita - The size of the tragedy still makes a heavy heart in my chest. If Spain needs them, then my prayers, thoughts, and hopes for the future are Spain's to have. Now I will wait and see what can be done for the families.

You are certainly welcome.

Dear All, (Hey Wally),
Guess I just jumped right in, I'm really, really pro Spain. Just disappointed about the "knee-jerk" reaction of the Spanish voters. I guess they don't realize that they have encouraged Al-Qaeda. The long term effect of what they have done will reverberate for years.

Signed,
Sad Raymo

TERRORISM HAS TO BE STOPPED.

DO U THINK IT WOULD BE BETTER IF AMERICA AND HER ALLIES PULLED OUT OF EVERY COUNTRY SUFFERING AT THE HANDS OF DICTATORS, TERRORISTS AND THE EXCUSES FOR GOVERNMENTS SEEN AROUND THE WORLD TODAY AND SIMPLY LEFT THEM TO THEIR OWN DEVICES? DO U THINK THE KILLING WOULD STOP THERE?
OR DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE "I'M ALRIGHT JACK" PHILOSOPHY AND SO SOD EVERY ONE ELSE?

I LIVE HERE IN MADRID AND ABHORE THE VIOLENCE THAT THE U.S, SPAIN AND EVERY OTHER COUNTRY
HAS SUFFERED AT THE HANDS OF THESE TERRORISTS, AND MY OWN COUNTRY, BRITAIN IS SOON TO BE NEXT,
WE ALL KNOW IT. I HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS ALOT, I ASKED MYSELF: IF I HAD THE CHOICE TO STOP THE WAR NOW, AND THEREFORE PREVENT AN ATTACK ON ENGLAND WOULD I DO IT? THE IMMEDIATE RESPONSE IS "YES" BUT BY DOING THIS I WOULD BE ALLOWING THE DALILY LIVES OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN COUNTRIES RAVAGED BY WAR AND POVERTY TO BE FURTHER OPPRESSED AND SUBJECTED TO HORRIFIC BREACHES OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS THAT WE SO FREELY ENJOY.

WE HAVE TO ACT, IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT THE PEOPLE WE ARE FIGHTING DO NOT ADHERE TO THE "RULES OF WAR" IF INDEED THERE ARE SUCH THINGS, BUT THIS IS THE 21ST CENTURY AND THINGS HAVE CHANGED. I SAY FIGHT BACK HARDER, STEP UP SECURITY AND PROTECT OURSELVES TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY. OUR GOVERNMENTS HAVE A HARD JOB TO DO, AND WHICHEVER ROUTE THEY CHOOSE LEADS INEVITABLY TO HEARTACHE AND SUFFERING, ASK YOURSELF; COULD YOU DO A BETTER JOB? WILL YOU LET THE LIVES OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN MURDERED BE IN VAIN? IF I DIED AT THE HANDS OF THESE TERRORISTS I WOULD WANT MY DEATH AVENGED. HOW DARE A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE THROW SLANDER ON AN ENITRE RELIGION AND MAKE GOOD LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS FEAR PUBLIC PLACES AND TRANSPORTATION.

ALL THIS "IN FIGHTING" BETWEEN THE PEOPLE THAT USE THIS SITE ONLY CONTINUE TO WEAKEN OUR DEFENCES, AL QUAIDA HAVE SUCCEEDED IN CHANGING THE ENTIRE POLITICAL SYSTEM IN SPAIN, DO NOT LET THEM DIVIDE THE PEOPLE AND PROCURE HATRED AMONG THEM AS WELL.

LIVE AND LET LIVE, EACH TO THIER OWN OPINION, SURE, BUT TAKE CARE WITH YOUR THOUGHTS, WARS HAVE BEEN STARTED OVER LESS.

http://www.wap.org/info/techstuff/disablecapslock.html

More on dispabling the caps lock key...

Linux/Unix
http://www.unixguide.net/hp/faq/8.6.shtml

Microsoft
http://johnhaller.com/jh/useful_stuff/disable_caps_lock.asp

Wow, blame Bush for 3-11? Well, you may disagree with Bush's manner of handling terrorism or not, but to blame him is ludicrous. If I decided to follow a person who is leading people off a cliff, it is not his fault, it is mine. If Spain suffers repurcussions because their govt chose to follow a particular path, thats not anyone elses fault, it is theirs.
Personally I thought the Spanish people intelligent enough to know what they were getting into, what risks were involved. You may say that "I did not support the govts decision to back Bush" but that is irrelevant, it still does not make it BUSH'S fault that your govt decided to follow his plan. To blame Bush is not only wrongheaded in itself, but it is also an insult to spanish people because it implies they do not have any ability to determine for themselves what path they choose.. it implies they are mindless sheep... a position I do not hold to. You may not make claim to any intelligence or ability to self determination and at the same time pass blame for your choices on someone else. And though the outgoing govt may not have many supporters today, they apparently did at ONE time when they got elected. So, like it or not, Your govt is responsable for policies it takes, and ultimately the people who put that govt in office to begin with have the REAL responsability.

Ultimately, however, the blame really belongs to niether.. the blame belongs on the head of those who planted the BOMBS. Spanish reaction to it, however, is spanish responsability as well.

CynicalWisdom - It is apparent to me (since I know what I wrote and why) that you are making entirely too many assumptions based on causations I never even remotely alluded to. I see from where you are coming, and I disagree with your assessment of my opinion.

Still, thank you for taking the time to lend more perspective to the picture.

"President Bush does not speak for me, and I tell you that it is on the innocent spilled blood of the slain Spanish that Bush will slip and fall. It is my fervent hope that his fall shakes this world, and the people of the United States into waking up to the lies and crimes of the Bush administration. There is no reason Spain should pay such a price, and I am humbled by her resolve."

Well it appears to me that you think Bush is responsable for the deaths and should justly pay the price for it.... or you are saying that he is not responsable, yet should pay the price for it anyway. Which?

You are completely misreading it. I'm not saying that Bush is responsible, and I'm not saying that he should pay the price for _whatever_. We are seeing the trickle-down effects of a foreign policy that went bad well before Afghanistan, and Bush is going to have to deal with the consequences (as will the rest of the world).

The U.S. does not live in a vacuum -- what the Bush administration does, has consequences. People seem to want to gloss over those things. Every decision has its own set of consequences that get set into motion, and this is a big, big world in which we live. That is it.

Jennita Quote: You can't post anything in these forums without getting attacked, having your words turned upside down and inside out. We all have opinions and to call another person an "idiot" is simply uncalled for.

I feel very much the same as you Jennita. It seems to happen more often lately. Frankly, anyone is entitled to his/her opinion. If someone else is opposed to that opinion then either respond intelligently and respectfully or have a slugfest on a different forum. Yes, I think a Political forum catagory would help, but I too feel that it may escalate to a boiling point rather quickly. So then, if that's the case then the only solution to the matter is quite simple...LEAVE! ADIOS! Find or establish your own Spain vs USA Forum where you can argue, debate, insult, harrass each other. Believe me, your presence here won't be missed! I don't mind a healthy debate or exchange of opinions, but you guys are taking it to a different level and its effecting the whole board.

All that I wanted to do was accomplished in my first post.

I believe that I am finished discussing any politics regarding the subject -- I am more concerned for the Spanish people who must now cope with this disaster.

Others are free to say what they will about the politics of my post; I will no longer reply to them.

Live, and let live.

-=-=-

Added later:

I apologize for my part in this discussion turned political. If anyone has felt offended by my posts, I apologize for that, as well -- it was not my intention.

I hope that I have treated everyone respectfully, and I hope that no one will leave due to my posts. I am very, very sorry for all of this.

Wally, you are an inspiration. I agree with you and thank you for your service in the Coast Guard. I'm sorry that you felt attacked, but usually, it's those to the right of the aisle that can't justify their arguments without getting personal, mean and venomous. I pray every night Bush loses the election.

Silvita.. I agree 100%.

Wow!... I just heard on the news that the Pakastani forces have Osama's second-hand man cornered....Anyone seen John Kerry?

MadridMan,

If you don't see this as bashing your own President because you don't like his politics, then you aren't being fair and impartial like you intend to be.

If I made the comment that was similar about the Spanish President I would be considered bashing him, but this is acceptable?

Wally's comments were politically biased as a dove, and clearly defines his intent to put the blame on Bush for what happened. If I said that the Spanish President was "happy" that the attack took place because it got him elected that would be bashing... Wally's comment isn't?

Sorry! I totally disagree. But since it's your forum you have a right to move the bar left or right as to what you think is impartial. I just don't agree with this decision but will live with it.

Wolf

Silvita, I also agree 100%

Jennita wrote: Ain't that the truth?! And no. NO NAME CALLING WILL BE TOLERATED!! Just because you're semi-anonymous (as in we can't see your face or know where you live) doesn't mean you have the right to insult others, no matter their political viewpoint.

Wolf wrote: [quote]MadridMan,

If you don't see this as bashing your own President because you don't like his politics, then you aren't being fair and impartial like you intend to be.



I don't know who said your above quotation as I no longer have the stamina to sift threw them all. But no, I don't feel that which the person stated was appropriate. NO. As for your statements, as long as you aren't calling names or making insults then fine. Go for it. You can say because this happened that that will happen. Good. No problem.

Maybe it was a mistake to open this political commentary category. I'm fed up already after only a day. Maybe it's time to go back to "the old days" when we ONLY talked about travel and tourism and the wonders of Spanish culture and society. Ah yes... remember those glory days? That was so nice. I fear, as I said before, that I'll be spending the majority of my "message board police" time right here in this category, reading through the pages and pages of political commentary, probably the thing (i.e. politics) I like least in this world. Gee. This message board USED to be fun. Nice. Warm. A great place for people to make friends and exchange witty banter. Ah yes... Seems those days are gone - at least for the time being.

So what can I do?

Option 1) immediately delete those postings I decide are offensive, threatening, or tasteless without any word?

Option 2) Enter into each discussion (and there are a lot of them) and give my reasons why I was removing a posting and thereby spark more opposition and discussion and, probably, more name-calling?

Option 3) Totally turn my back and turn my eyes away from this category and just let it all happen; bash this person, insult that person, offend this person, try to convince some other person that ETA is the best thing since sliced bread until I'm blue in the face and ready to murder, post inappropriate or sexist photos, and just let it all go to hell.

Option 4) Close down the entire Political Commentary and force people to post their political viewpoints (i.e. demands) in the Transportation category or whever they like, causing the casual would-be Spain traveler to see it and say to themselves, "Sheesh! Look at all this crap?! If this is what I'm going to be seeing in Spain then I don't want to go!!" Or they'll say, "What a bunch of #@$%^ for posting that stuff on a messages board. Well, I guess it's just like all the rest - no moderation"

Option 5) Hmmm.. let's see... shut down the boards ability to accept new registrations for the next month, thereby stemming the flood of new fanatics and would-be Spain Bashers and allow or HOPE FOR some kind of equilibrium to take place... hopefully!

Option 6) F*** it all, turn off the lights at MadridMan.com, and take a new interest in nightly TV reality shows.

Option 7) Just let things run totally rampant here and turn into so many other trash-talking, service-advertising, website-link-posting message boards, where the moderator MIGHT check in once a month.

Option 8) Take a NEW interest in politics, shut down the messag board totally, and reopen a new one DEDICATED to Spanish politics and how its decisions influence the worlds' attitude. Now THAT would be a FULL TIME JOB!

Okay. I'm done ranting. But you know what? I don't feel better. In fact, I feel worse. My saying what stays and what goes, saying what's appropriate and what's not, trying in futility to read all these new, 1000s of postings about politics in such a short span of time - is just not possible to do well 100% of the time. I haven't been online all day because my (new) boss was hounding me (don't pity me, please), pushing me, spying on me - so I have THAT to deal with all day long, still having pains in my heart for the Madrid bombings, and then come home to all this stuff? HOLY MOLEY! Is it worth it? I'm REALLY starting to wonder!

But I know one thing. I'm no longer going to ATTEMP to defend Spain anymore. It's impossible. I'm spent. I've done all I can. And, as many of us have learned in the past few days since the elections, we can describe, site references, quote experts, give statistics, show why this and why that until we're BLUE in the face. But the truth is, the person reading those words thinks you're totally wrong and he'll return with an equal number of quotes and statistics and expert accounts, etcetera and on and on and on and on 'til the end of time. One person KNOWS he's right and the other person KNOWS he's right too and no amount of head-bashing will change the mind of the other. FUTILITY. It's an absolute, total stalemate. Always is.

Done! Finished. That's it. Wish I had some beer in the fridge. Ugh.

Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah. And I really mean that. X2. And you can't convince me otherwise because my "reasoning switch" broke off at the last elections and I'm not able to open my mind once again. (EDIT: this paragraph was sarcasm, by the way)

Didn't I already say I was "done"? Hmmm... Guess I still have some "rant juice" dribbling out of my ears.

Wolf - You're absolutely correct -- you know more about what I actually meant than do I. How silly of me to not realize your psychic abilities.

Good bye.

MadridMan - Please feel free to delete my account. I can go to the bad part of town and get mugged if I want to be treated as Kevin and Wolf treat people.

MadridMan,

Good rant! It's about time you get your turn at it. God only knows the majority of us have had a hell of a lot of opportunities to do it. I applaude what you said, and totally agree. It isn't easy to do the job you are on this board, and I don't know what anyone else thinks, but I'm damned glad we have had the board and you moderating it.

It is difficult deciding what is and isn't a proper post. Each of us sees things a little differently, and its because of these differences there are arguments, but it's also through these disagreements where we all grow a little closer in our understandings of each other. It sure beats reading the newspapers and watching TV to get information. Here we get it first hand, with a personal flavor.

Nobody can question your love of Madrid or Spain. Nobody can question your right to support, and defend them. That's a given, because this whole site is about Spain and your love of same. Moreover, it was your love of country that brought us together in the first place.

Thanks for the rant! You had every right in the world to do it! We're all human and have a right to "let it out once in a while." Where better to do it than with family. After all, that is what we are out here isn't it? Family?

I may disagree with you at times, but rest assured, it has never diminished my respect for the great job you've done out here and your right to govern it the way you have. I'm with you 100%, and will support your decisions even if I do disagree. It would be a very boring world if we all agreed with each other all the time. I just can't imagine my having to be an OSU football fan!!!! :p

By the way! That was one of the best damned rants I've read out here! Go for it!!!

Wolf

Wally,

No, I'm not psychic. But I do deserve the right to disagree with you when you post something open to criticism. In a perfect world we'd agree on everything, but this is not a perfect world.

When we post something that has specific political undertones like your calling Bush a liar and specifically blaming him for what happened in Madrid, can you honestly say that someone won't step up and say you're wrong? If they didn't rebutt what you said, that would be acceptance of what you said as fact.

If there's any hurt feelings or animosity over this, it's on your part, because I certainly don't harbor any ill will against you. You have a right to your belief and I have a right to mine. I also believe you have a right to state your mind, and I have a right to state mine.

Now, leaving the site doesn't make sense. Stick around and enjoy the discussions, get into them, and put your two cents worth in. That's what makes this site beautiful. We're allowed a degree of free speech.

Wolf

Do not take lack of rebuttal as agreement.

Right on Vicki.

And MadridMan, you are awesome. I see nothing wrong with deleting posts you find innapropriate, offensive, whatever. It's your board, and a great one. Thank you again and again.

Wolf - There is a world of difference between disagreeing with me, and telling me what my intent was. You did both. I can deal with disagreement. There are no approved, on-line methods for dealing with mind-reading.

I would not pretend, ever, to tell anyone on this board what their intent is. You, however, appear at ease with telling me what my intent was, and not just twice. In the face of that, there is no discussion -- you can pretend to tell me what my intent and thinking was/is at every turn. That is not "disagreement," and that is not "discussion."

If you would diagram the sentences of my post, you would see that I in no way lay the blame for what happened on Bush. Not only did I not lay the blame on him, that wasn't the point of it at all. You can start with parallelism and metaphor, and work your way up from there.

So, after I said what my intent was, you went ahead and posted, again, what you believe my intent is/was. That puts me in the unfortunate position of having been called a liar, which is yet another discussion-squelching device.

-=-=-

Edited later (03-19-2004, ~ 18:28 EST):

Wolf - If, after all of this, my message still means something different to you, then just come right out and say that it means something different to you. That, is something we can discuss and something from which we can learn things.

-=-=-

Edited later [ 03-19-2004, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Wally ]:

Vicki - Sorry for misundersanding your post. My head is .

Thankfully, my head is spinning (thanks, Wally) a little less this weekend. Thank goodness. Finally, a moment to catch my breath.

Wally,

Regardless of how you defend your letter, I thought it was in poor taste, and it shouldn't have been sent. But I'm not going to trade barbs with you over it to the point of obsession.

End of discussion. Thank you!

Wolf

Wolf - Well, actually, you moved things past my defending the letter, and more into the realm of defending my intent -- I believe, however, that I have put enough words to the screen regarding divination of intent.

I truly appreciate your simple statement about how my letter made you feel, and what you thought because of that. Those are tangibles that I can see and take into account in the big picture of life. I apologize for my part in prodding those feelings to life. Really, it was not my intent. This exchange will be a part of things that I consider when next I post something about which I have a great deal of emotional churning and sadness.

And, yes, I think if we stuck a fork in this goose of a thread, it would be considered to be "done."

Wally wrote: Wally, since you started the thread and semi-requested it closed, let it be so. Thread Closed.