Measuring Spain's Character

The terrorist, and now the world, has had an opportunity to take the measure of the Spanish character and this is what they found. Give the Spaniards a bloody nose and they will cut and run away. If those who voted in the Socialist government think that this will appease the terrorists, they will eventually learn how completely wrong they are.
Signed,
Sadly dissappointed in America

I understand your reaction. After the tremendous sympathy and support I felt for the Spanish people, I was proud to be visiting there this summer - in defiance of those that would murder. But the election left me saddened to see the terrorists handed a second victory in a few days - by the Spanish themselves! The rhetoric that I now read in the media is similar to the pig-pile on America that we experienced when we dared go after the mid-evil-mass-murdering Saddam Hussein.

Shucks.

Fup

Guys, this was also said after Bill Clinton pulled us out of Somalia. UBL said that a few bodybags will send the US packing....he was right. "I" thank GOD that we elected a President that has the fortitude to fight instead of running. This isn't exactly a "European" problem, but one of human nature. It's saddening, but if you look around at the numerous protests in the States by people like ANSWER, the Worker's World Party, etc. you will see how close we are to doing the same thing if Kerry were to be elected. I was in the United States Army from '92 to '00 and applaud anyone that decides to fight instead of giving up. Blanketing the entire Spanish people is not constructive. Remember, Clinton was elected twice....but not by me. Many Spaniards didn't vote for the Socialist Party.

[originally posted by jtevar on 03-15-2004 10:36 AM]

This post is disgusting. If you had the slightest idea about how the Spanish Government has handled (or sould I say "manipulated"?) the situation, you wouldn't have posted this crap.

I'm tired of trying to explain that if the Government had not manipulated the information about this "bloody nose" as you call it, the Spaniards, with far more years of experience about terrorism than most of the countries in the world, would probably have voted Mr Rajoy for president. But the sickening (almost as sickening as your post) manipulation of the information about the most sensible issue we've suffered that the Government has carried out, deserved their ousting.

It looks that a some people has registered today to be ofensive with us for going to vote in a democratic exhibition just because they don't like the results.
They open a new thread call terrorist win instead of writing in the already opened victory to terrorist? and without reading the previous opinions. Interesting.
Lot of work for you today MM?

A different American perspctive:

I know, in the short term, circumstances will now politically advance to a more adveserial relationship between our two peoples, but as a plain Joe United States citizen, I would like to express my deepest respect, appreciation and admiration, for Spain's being there for America when we need someone to stand with us in our time of peril.

My heart bleeds for those innoncent people who were the victim and the families of those March 11th thugs and murders.

May our two peoples never fall victim to their goal of world domination and freedoms surpression.

Again, thank you!

Amen to the first three posts in this thread.

Spain, I thought you were better than your French cousins. My mistake.

I am a conservative American voter and I cannot beleive the stupidity coming from fellow conservatives on this terror issue. Calling the Spaniards 'yellow' for electing a left-winger is the latest addition to these thoughtless statements. Spain was stead-fast during the invasion and Rodriguez promises to carry out Spain's vow to keep it's troops there until July (when Americans leave too). Spain has been loyal to the Iraq occupation from A to B, yet so many conservatives now trash them! Then there's the 'democrats for al-queda' and 'Bush is a war hero' garbage. Seriously, you guys sound like a bunch of little girls!

I know Al-Queda just changed an election, but it may very well be for the better (on this issue). I wish George Bush would have the balls to admit the Iraq war was more or less pointless and wasteful. At the bottom of his heart, he must know it was a badly timed move. Three years since 9-11 and we've got Americans dying every day in Iraq while Bin Laden & Co. make plans for their next attack.

.....and we still have troops in Afghanistan and Pakistan is also helping us root out terrorists. What's your point? We are not losing that many troops in Iraq and, whatever you may think, it was a good decision to take Saddam out in an attempt to stabilize the region. Iran is already having problems from within from people wanting freedom. The Domino Effect would be the best thing for the entire world. I am also a Conservative Libertarian and a former Sergeant in the United States Army.

I understand the domino effect was Bush's intentions and that is what many liberals don't see. However, it's next to impossible to bring stability to Iraq. Even Donald Rumsfeldt said so. The Shiites are already demanding a harsh-islamic gov't to give payback to the Sunnis. And to think we're supposed to turn this country over this summer? I am hopeful things will improve over there, but even if Iraq does morph into a stable democracy, we still haven't put hardly a scratch in the terrorism issue. Al-Queda is still well at large.

Simple question to all Spaniards:

Did your government do what you wanted when it entered into the war in Iraq? Or, were you happy/proud your country was part of the coalition forces?

It seems many many people see the name "SPAIN", give their opinions about the election results, and these people think that politicians are reading their postings. They're not! The people of Spain, the REAL PEOPLE of Spain are reading your posts and it hurts them because THEY did not choose nor did they want to be part of the war in Irag. The government of Spain acted with its own agenda, AGAINST the will of the people. When you as a government burn your own people, you can expect they're going to get even with you sooner or later. And guess what. THEY DID! They voted their butts out of office. That's a democracy for you. That's how it works when it comes to voting. But we all know that politicians tell us all what we want to hear and then, when they're finally in office, they pretty much do what THEY want to do.

I'm proud of Spain in many many respects. They're a proud people and they do love their country but many are not nationalists and that's fine with me. They don't need our (USA) approval to choose their politicians. Let them make their own choices and live with the consequences.

You haven't read many Spaniards trying to debate these accusations here on the message and I'm proud of them for them that. They don't feel they need to explain or defend themselves to us. Good for them.

And as for everyone (everyone? Seems like only those from the US to me!) putting them down for their elective choice, well, don't you think THEY were quite upset with OUR (USA) choice of presidents this last time? Yes. They were upset, i'm sure. But you didn't see them here on this message board slurring him or our entire country or questioning our collective I.Q.s because of it. And besides, did WE (USA) care what Spain thought about our choice in presidents? Of course not. Chew on that for awhile. It's done. Man elected. Past. Written in stone. Now let's all shut up and live with it. No amount of silly chatter or hindsight debates are going to change that. Wow, I'm steaming. Time to close finish message (but not the thread) before I say something I'll really regret.

Jeez Louise! MadridMan

Actually, MadridMan, there were opinions all over the world about Bush. Hell, we were called "Warmongerors" for going into Afghanistan. I hope Spain never has to endure something on the scale of 9/11 and never criticized them for ousting Aznar (Their choice), but a "hands off" approach to today's problems is not going to solve anything. Pull out of Iraq all you want, the US will step up to the plate. I don't have a problem with Spain.

...now France........ saved in WWI, WWII, and Vietnam only to turn their backs on us and we then found that missiles created after '91 being shot at us had France's fingerprints on them and the backdoor dealings with Chirac and Hussein.....well, that's another story. THEY didn't ask for the UN's approval when they launched their attack in Africa. I pray that they never need us again. "I" will go to Canada to avoid a draft if it's a war to protect France. ....and I am no coward. I will not lead one troop into battle to protect France.

I am US Citizen who was born and raised in Spain for half of my life. I did not vote for Bush (nor did the majority of the USA). I do not support the war in Iraq. I do support our troops (no matter what country). However, when any country in the world is in need, whom do they call first --- the USA! When they need us, unfortunately sometimes we go, sometimes at the expense of American lives. However, when all we need from other countries is their moral support (Spain at first did not send troops), that is when we see the world's character. I am not calling all Spaniards cowards, just those that seem to think that by giving into terrorists is the right thing to protect themselves. I was there on 9/11/01, we were not at war and had no warning. It takes a great man to stand up for what he believes, even if he doesn't have his countries backing, and do what is right.

My original post was based upon these underlying assumptions:
1) Hundreds of people were killed in Madrid as a result of a terrorist attack. (And I grieve for
those victims and their families more than you can possibly know).
2) Prior to the attack, the polls showed that the Spanish people were going to elect Asnar's hand picked successor.
3) al Qaeda has taken responsibility for the attacks and have said they are because of Spain's
involvement in Iraq. Which, just by the way, is clear confirmation of the link between Iraq and al Qaeda, out of their own lips!
4) 2/3rds of the Spanish people vote for the Socialist Party, who now promises to pull the Spanish troops out of Iraq in June(significant only for its symbolism, rather than for its substance. There will be less than a mere ripple felt by those in Iraq).

Based upon these assumptions, there is only one way that I can view what has happened, those
who are responsible for killing the people in Madrid have scored a HUGH victory. Regardless of
all the tangential issues people have thrown into this discussion, I guarantee you that those
responsible for the train bombings are rejoicing and gloating about the impact they have had over
this election. Not only are they rejoicing, they are now emboldened. This makes me grieve even more for the victim's and their families, for it now appears that they died to further the agenda of terrorism which has succeeded.

If any of these assumptions are flawed please help me to understand. I am not writing this out of a liberal or conservative political position (in fact I'm a registered independent voter), just as a thinking, rational person trying to reason out the world’s political situation, especially as it relates to the war on terrorism. If I could draw an analogy of this recent Spanish episode to World War Two it would be this. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the United States would have ceased sending supplies to Great Briton, rather than declaring war on the Japanese. Please, help
me to see this differently!

Amen MadridMan.

America: 42% voted for PSOE (socialist party) not 2/3.

Fernando

MadridMan,

I was under the assumption the war in Iraq was over? That the troops are there to help rebuild the nation, and give the people an opportunity to find a democratic government through their own elections?

Since al Qaeda wants them out at this juncture, doesn't that tell anyone that al Qaeda wants chaos to be the rule of day in Iraq?

In essence, all Spain is doing is pulling out soldiers who are helping rebuild the nation, not soldiers in combat. It's simply a political maneuver that the Socialists decided would help them gain votes in the election, and they're sticking to it.

As for calling the people cowards, I don't think it's fair. They aren't cowards. But they also don't have the stomach to stick around and help rebuild Iraq either, because the war has been over for quite a while.

Wolf

Hey Wolf, I haven't read all the posts, only those of the posters I already know because this others are so nasty and unrespectful, so I have read yours.
What Zapatero has promise is that he will take the troops out unless a UN order is given. That's what is suppoused to be the international laws, not an alliance between a few countries, Spain will accept their international compromise while they'll be inside international laws and UN orders.

Miguelito,

That's the understanding I have too. But even if that doesn't happen, and they do leave, that's not something that should be held against Spain by Americans. It was a democratic decision in the election, and the new President made it part of his campaign pledge, and I believe he must honor that committment.

To be honest, I do believe the UN will be in Iraq in June. So the whole thing would become a mute point. Personally, I want that as well, and feel the US government should be pressured from within to get something worked out with the UN to step in.

Wolf

Now is conditional Miguelito?

I can still here Zapatero shouting his followere for inmediate return of our troops.

They won't come back anytime soon. He has made promises he is not able to fullfill.

Just my thoughts.

Fernando

Wow, the tone has certainly changed. This will be my third attempt to get this not on the board, but now it considerably more mild relatively to what has since been posted...

The fact the Z was elected should not be construed as the end of the world or cowardly, etc. After all, voting for a ruling party should never be about one issue. Apparently, the people did not like how the PP handled themselves on a number of issues and when given the chance, they voted for change. OK, fine.

Now, here is what I am having trouble with. The annoucement that Spanish troops will be pulled out of Iraq was devastating for a number of reasons.

One, Al-Q now claims victory. The elections could have been over a number of things. But to announce that Spain is pulling out of Iraq so soon after the horror at Atocha is chilling. Al-Q now knows that as long as they turn up the heat contries will forsake one another and rather than stick by their "principles."

Two, the PSOE has made it known that as long as Spain is not attacked, the forces of terror will not be met with opposition. On Friday, I marched with 2.3 million other Madrileños. The ONLY message-in its various forms--I heard that evening was "No al terrorismo." This march came at a time when the Spainish govt had infamously declared that it was 99% sure the bombing was the work of ETA. Yet, within 72 hours of that march, not only was it revealed to be Al-Q, but the elections swung by 11% AND the PSOE annouced it will pull troops out of Iraw. Wow! So rather than saying "No al terrorismo," really what the people were saying was "No al ETA" and "Al-Qaeda por favor no regresa a España," So anti-terrorism was not a principled belief after all. Big, big difference.

Look folks, stopping terrorism ain;t gonna be done holding hands or burning candles. These guys are nihilists, who seek only to destabilize. By making such a bold policy annoucement, the PSOE has essentially told Al-Q, "As long as you don't kill Spaniards, we won;t stand against your form of terrorism." I find that deeply unsettling.

Three, the victims of terror just lost an ally. There is one side of terrorism that always, always gets lost in the political debate...the victims, present and future. The people of Iraq are suffering under a campaign of terror, meant to imtimidate the allies into giving up helping the little guy. Their goal is to force the Allies out of Iraq and consolidate their power. For sure, the Kurds will be high on their list--they have already made this clear. Oh yeah, remember the Kurds? the folks that suffered 5000+ dead to mustard gas attacks under Saddam? Remember them, the victims of terror, while the world--apart from a scant few--stood by and did and said nothing? Well, if the Allies are gone, the Kurds will be the first to suffer. And unless the Sunnis kowtow to the Shiites, they too will suffer. So with Spain being so quick to pull out of Iraq, those who stand in between the forces of terror and their true intended victims have been recuced by one. So disappointing. And the message to Al-Q? "We are against terrorism in our backyard, but not anywhere else." "We are against ETA spilling Spanish blood, but will not stand against others spilling Iraqi or Kurdish blood." "We are against Al-Q in principle, but if you hurt us, we will bow to your wishes"

Four, the new Spanish govt made a policy decision to realign herself with and under the mandate of France and Germany. Again not because the PP was kicked out of power. No by joining the world of the "hot air" against terrorism--flowery speech and tough words, but so fighting against terrorism where it needs to be fought. Spain how returns to its former position, somewhere between #5 or #6 in the rigid European power structure, under Germany, France, Russia, Italy and perhaps either Turkey or the UK, depending on the issue. Its 15 min of fame and time of courage and leadership has now ended.

I feel thie new tension in my chest. While I still grieve for Spain and the victims--today we had a moment of silence for a colleague whose death was confirmed last night--that sadness is now mixed with the realization that this new policy stance is gravely in error.

What will happen with Al-Q strikes again long after Bush and Aznar are gone? WIll the old "No AL terrorismo" placards be dragged out from the dustbin? What will others in the world think? "Oh, we thought they were only aginst ETA?"

My heart bleeds yet again...I am numbed.

Anyone else notice that this (and other) threads have turned into a place for Spain Bashing for new members? Well guess what! Here's a news flash. Just as I ALWAYS eventually have to do on the ETA thread, this one too will meet is end. I'm just counting the minutes.

ATTENTION NEW AND ALL MEMBERS: WE WILL NOT TOLERATE CONSTANT SPAIN BASHING HERE. THERE ARE OTHER PLACES, I'M SURE, WHERE YOUR OPINIONS ARE SHARED BUT THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM. WE INVITE YOU TO LEAVE. THIS IS A PLACE FOR SPAIN LOVERS NOT SPAIN HATERS!! CONSIDER YOURSELF WARNED.

And before you jump on the 1st Ammendment (Freedom of Speech), it doesn't exist here. So watch it!

OH-SO-SINCERELY, MadridMan

"Two, the PSOE has made it known that as long as Spain is not attacked, the forces of terror will not be met with opposition."

This is what I don't understand about the PSOE. If they want to keep allies, they might want to rethink this stance.

As far as people that STILL pray to the United Nations, as I have already stated, these yahoos are a group of appeasers and "feel-good politicians". They appointed the Sudan, Communist China, and Libya, countries with some of the worst human right's violations on Earth, to the Human Right's council. They appointed Iraq and Iran to the Disarmament Committee, before the US and it's allies attacked, and they passed several resolutions against Iraq that they didn't act on. This organization is as inept as a 90 Y/O man without Viagra in front of Pamela Anderson. As far as people in the States, I can, if you wish, bring up several, SEVERAL quotes from liberals that supported going into Iraq when Clinton was in office. THAT should show EVERYONE in the states, and everywhere else, that murder, terrorism, etc. is all too often used as a partisan ploy. John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, et. al. ALL supported going into Iraq.....until Bush was elected. Why? They can't stand the fact that a Republican can be right.

Funny, this isn't an American issue as I am seeing it throughout the world. When it comes to defending my country, this partisan bull**** goes out the window. I hope all of you feel the same.

MM, I hope you have seen that I have never once engaged in "Spain-Bashing" and have only been courteous to my Spanish brethren.

Kevin, my above posting was not directed at you specifically but to EVERYONE. These new-Spain-bashers might find themselves on the OUTSIDE of the walled city of MadridMan's ALL SPAIN Message Board if they don't watch themselves.

I understand. I am an Administrator with an NCAA sports board. It's totally understandable.

I am sickened by many of these posts. Killing is NOT the answer on either side. Why do so many Americans feel that it's either our way or the high way? Not everyone does things the "American Way" (thank god!).

Right. They kill us, we kill them, they kill us, we kill them. Eventually we'll all be dead, I guess then there will be peace?

Um excuse me.. but Spain JUST ENDURED the scale of 9/11. This makes me sick that you think Spain can't understand how 9/11 feels until over 3,000 people die? Utterly ridiculous.

It wasn't just 3000 dead. It was the plummet of our economy and everything else.

You sit there and sing Kum Bay Ya all you want, do you think NOT taking them out is an answer Mrs. Chamberlain? Maybe they'll leave you alone if you don't bother them. Is THAT your response? History is your friend ma'am. I suggest you study it. You canNOT bargain with terrorists.

Jennita,
You are making a fatal assumption. You are assuming that those who support military intervention think that killing is the answer. You are 180 degrees off base. Military intervention is used to STOP the kiiling and chaos.

four examples.

Haiti 2004. the chaos, looting, and wanton massacres has started to ramp up before the US intervened. The bloodshed literally stopped overmight. Yes, there is a occasional death, but the proper point of reference is pre intervention not utopia.

Rwanda 1990s. The world did not intervene. My guess is that the US would have had they not been interevening eveywhere else and had self-righteous fingers pointed at them internally and from our laughable UN allies. SO geez, what happened? 500,000 innocent people massacred using machetes and being burned alive. 2 million people left homeless creating an enormous humanitarian and environmental disaster. Are you sure you still support no military intervention? OK next one.

Cambodia 1975-79. Yep, the Killing Fields. Taking full advantage of US policy fatigue in the region and typical UN sitting on their hands, Pol Pot and company roll into Cambodia and kill 2 million people and decimiate the arts and cultural infrastructure of the country. In the process, they lay millions of landmines without mapping them that continue to kill today. Do you know how it stopped? Vietnam invaded Cambodia!! Go figure!! Still a fan of doing nothing? Next slide.

Yugoslavia, 1990s. Sarajevo 1984. Beamingly proud hosts of the 84 Winter OLympics, where my former coach competed. Within 5-10 years, the stadium which hosted the Opening and Closing cermonies was a cemetary of over 100,000 dead. It was PAINFUL to watch day after day after tortuourous day, while European leaders jabbered on and on and did NOTHING. Finally the US went in (one of Clinton's high points) and started bombing the Serbs to stop the ethnic cleansing and systematic massacre of Muslims (yep, hard to believe Osama, isn't it?). Within a few short months, the killing STOPPED.

While there is nothing more desireable that peace now and forever, if you have even once picked up a real history book (without pictures), you would realize that military intervention can stop the KILLING, with a capital "k." Why when presented with fact after fact after fact, indisuptable and complete with numbers and dates and details, do folks like you continue to think that if we all just sat down on our Smith and Hawken benches and in our JCrew sweaters that the world will all come together and forever love each other???

And my list...I left out the HUGE ones. Armenia 1916-1917 nearly two million butchered by the Turks; USSR early 1930s 15-20 million killed in Stalin's move to colidate power; China 1958-62 20-30 million starved to death in the Great Leap Forward.

The saddest moments in history are those in which the world stood by and did nothing. Glorious pronouncements of protecting the dignity of humanity but only under conditions that we might actually have to back up our flowery words with action are wholly disgusting to any person who has lived under such regimes.

real

Almohada, I salute you sir.

Kevin,
I am curious. Has the power of logic ever worked with these folks? Or do they need a jarring tragedy (or series thereof) to get them to cross the threshold into rational thought?

About 14 years ago, it took a couple of months in a liberal Mecca, a trusty copy of Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead at my bedside, and a girlfriend daughter (now my wife) of an avowed libertarian to "convert" me. But I think I was easy as I wanted to be challenged. To the contrary, these folks are defensive and seem to prefer to thicken their veil before ever admitting reality to enter their world.

I don;t know, but it is an axhaurting process. Are you as tired as me?

Cheers, A

Almohada,

I think their philosophy is; "If they aren't coming for me, it ain't my problem." Of course that means their favorite bird has to be the ostrich.

There's no polite way of being the policeman everyone wants when they need them, but the guy they don't want to invite over for dinner because his hands are dirty. But that's what some people seem to believe - despite the fact that others have died to protect that right for them.

Wolf

WOlf,

I wonder if this happens to be as a result of the feminsation of the culture? NO disrespect the ladies out there, but with UBL, comforting prose will not be an effective substitute for crushing military blows. Perhaps the best recent example I thnk of is the US bombing of Libya post Lockerbie. SInce then Lybia ceased to play an effective role in the world of terror. These guys, UBL, Aqaddafi, Saddam, are machos. They openly scoff at teams of lawters making sure certain words are in intl treaties. Hitler scoffed at Chamberlain (see Home of the Brave, there is common ground).

Women like to calm things down behind the scenes. And hell, if the world were all run by women, I would think it be grand. But...it is not...not even close. The West has feminized and lo and behold NO WHERE else. Yet what is so frustrating, is that it is OUR women trying to hold us back.

Where is Jean Kirkpatrick when we need her? Even Oprah would understand the need to get macho over global terrorism. Instead, we are gettign bogged down with the Diane Sawyer's of the world who literally take glee over the tough choices that need to be made and try to make us guilty over 9-11, 11-M, etc. Can you bloody imagine that? The nerve to transform the victims into the causes?

Where was she on Decmeber 7th 1941? Trying to make us guilty for the oil embargo on Japan in before dec 7th? Kills me, Wolf, it really does...

Almohada, you are smart to read Ayn Rand. What you are trying to say, I think, is:

First they came for the Jews. I was silent. I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists. I was silent. I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists. I was silent. I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me. There was no one left to speak for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Kev,
will finally go to bed... taking those words with me...so powerful...

Cheers, A

Please don't EVER try to speak for me. You have NO IDEA who I am or what I feel.

Huh??? Please elaborate...

Jennita,

Actually you brought the subject up with your first post about US involvement in Iraq. Being against it is fine, as long as you use suitable defenses for your position. I believe that's what everyone took unbrage with, including myself.

Nobody has the right to tell you what you should believe in, and we agree with that, but what everyone does have a right to insist on is that people give informed statements that are fairly offered for people to accept or reject. It's not always what we say, but how we say it.

You're right. We don't know you. But I can pretty well make an assessment of you based on your comments. Whether or not I'm right doesn't matter, it's based solely on the comments you make. They set the tone for who we "assume you are," as a person. Your statements were nothing more than an opportunity to lash out at the US government, and in no way addressed the issues based on facts. They were just bitter comments.

I may not agree with your stance on Iraq, but I would defend to the death your right to say it because that's our belief in the US. But I ask you these questions.

Do you find the loss of life in Iraq over the last year to be an injustice, but the millions who died at the hands of Hussein to be justifiable in the past because it was a "legitimate government?"

Do you believe that the fundamentalist beliefs that harbor al Qaeda's terrorists has the right to subjugate women to the level of cattle like they do, without intervention?

Do you believe that the attacks of 9-11 and 3-11 were justifiable because those of us who fight them are being taught a lesson?

Since I would defend unto death your right to an opinion, and be free to state it, would you do the same for me, or a woman whose life has been forced behind painted over windows and a burqa, who should have a right to self-determination?

Please. Your thoughts.

Wolf

Congratulations MM!
I hope most Americans are like you.
GRACIAS, MADRIDMAN, TU ERES ESPAÑOL!

No, our country will never be like the USA.
I like it that way. So do most of this site's regular posters. Please, STOP BASHING!

I like it that way too, deibid. ¡Viva las diferencias!

Hi, MM!
Do you know? what most 'me cabrea' about these new posters is that they come here and they don't know anything about Spain, they just come and do some bashing because we have 'betrayed USA'.
WHAT??! Betray USA? They don't know that most citizens didn't want to become USA's allies.
Did you know that a referendum held in 1982 said NO to NATO?
Well, new posters, go away and eat your 'freedom fries'!

"They don't know that most citizens didn't want to become USA's allies."

Fine with me. Seems this was also the contention with most French before WWII when they were handing over Jews in droves to Germany. Didn't seem to work out all that well for them. Thankfully for them, we Amercians are a compassionate group and liberated them anyway. That's really not a smart thing to say D.

Astounded!!!
Congratulations folks, I didn’t think that people could disappoint me, I thought I had a low enough opinion of people in general for this to be a near impossibility, but I take my hat off to a few of you. You write in saying that the attacks in Madrid last Thursday were an attack on liberty, democracy and freedom. And then, because the Spanish people had the audacity to vote for someone you don’t agree with, you call them cowards.
You say the Spanish attacks don’t matter as much as the 11th September attacks because only 200 people died. Should we therefore declare the bombing of the Pan-Am 103 was hardly important at all as only 259 folk died there. And what were those people in Bali complaining about after all only 202 folk died there. Hell I don’t know what they’re going complaining about in Israel, they only get 20-30 people at a time there.
The governments in Spain and the UK went against their own people in supporting the war in Iraq and soon Blair will also be made to give up his premiership. I don’t personally believe that he will wait for an election but will instead resign in favour of his chancellor to draw the fire. More over the reason the PP lost so many votes in the last days was that they didn’t tell the truth. They tried to manipulate a terrible event and were caught. It reminds me of a British ministerial aide who emailed her colleagues on 11th September 2001 and said that this would be a good time to release any bad news as it would be buried in the fallout from the horrendous attacks in NYC. It turned out that the only thing she buried that day was her career.
As far as Iraq goes my personal belief is that whilst Hussein was a vicious and vile dictator and the world is better off without him. Please don’t try to defend the war with pious hand wringing over his human rights record, the WMD, the treatment of the women. Was human rights the issue? Why then I guess the next country on the list to be invaded will be China. As a member of Amnesty International I can assure you that this very day people are being jailed, tortured, killed and ethnically cleansed in China. But will there be a war, will the coalition of the willing even refuse to send an Olympic Team. Nope! They’ll be there chowing down, after all there are millions dollars/pounds/euros (delete as appropriate) worth of business contracts up for grabs. Where are these famous WMD? I know he had them because George Bush Snr. gave them to him when he was friends with the West. But he was only supposed to use them against Iranians, not anybody that mattered. He ended up using them against Kurds as well, but hey its’ not like the Kurds are a country so they don’t count. Old Mugabe in Zimbabwe must be quaking in his boots at the thought of Tony Blair waking up one morning thinking that it was time to put an end to the horrific human rights abuses in commonwealth member Zimbabwe. Nah, last year Blair would even ask the English Cricket team not to play there on principle! Women’s rights, how about our good friends in Saudi Arabia? And hey, guess what that was the one area that Hussein actually concurred with western ideologies. Please check out the websites set up by Iraqi women saying that they fear losing the equal status they had in Iraq prior to this war. That I’m afraid is another case of someone confusing Afghanistan and Iraq.

Sorry for going on.

M.

Hi, Kevin.
I don't consider you a basher, BTW, good manners are always wellcome.
In response to your message: You are right about the french in WWII.
Now let's think about Spain... where was the USA when FRANCO, A FASCIST DICTATOR FRIEND OF HITLER, ruled our country for 40 years?
answer: supporting him.
We don't have any reasons to be USA's allies.
Not that it's a bad thing, anyway.

This has been enlightening. It looks like there are many who share my opinions, so I won't waste MM's GBs and put them here. I've got a foot on each side here, as I love Spain, have family and friends there and can understand the "betrayal" they may perceive at the hands of the PP.

Nevertheless, I can't shake the feeling that they've let terror shape their domestic policy. Now, in saying that, realize that the PSOE got a bare plurality and must coalesce with the IU and others to form a ruling congressional majority. 42% is not a mandate. Both Bush and Gore got 48% in 2000...even then neither got a majority. But 42%?

This leads me to believe that the pre-3/11 polls were correct. Rajoy was to be PM had the carnage at Atocha not come to pass. PP still ended up around 37%. 2% difference per train. Sad.

Another observation is that the turnout was up 7% over the prior election. This was a wake-up call to democracy in Spain, but the results speak for themselves. It is apparent that Spaniards overwhelmingly disagreed with the decision to send support for the Iraqi war.

What is disappointing over all this is that in 8 years, Aznar balanced the budget, cut the deficit and reduced unemployment in Spain from 25% to around 9%. Ever since my first trip to Spain in the 80s, unemployment had always been double-digit. I hardly think removing 1500 rebuilders from Iraq will make such an incredible difference in Spain as to warrant governmental change.

Aznar desired Spain to take its place at the international leaders' table. The electorate spoke loudly on Sunday. Their voices collectively said "no lo queremos." I read a quote of a 26 year-old Madrileño mason who said he was going to vote PP until Thursday. He changed his vote and was quoted as saying "maybe now 'they' will leave us alone." Irrational murderers and homicidal maniacs don't "leave people alone" until they're dead...and sometimes, they go back and urinate on their corpses.

What I do think will come of this is what others have feared as well: Spain will be al-Qaida's doormat, since they are perceived by those who wish to harm them as weak-willed. I know different, but perception is, unfortunately, reality.

The_keeper,
while I agree that there is no cause to call Spanish people cowards, I cannot understand the logic, if there is any, with the rest of your post.

The comment on Iraqi women losing their equal status??? Makes so sense. Yes Saddam ran a secular regime. SO did Hitler. Thousands of innocent Kurds gassed to death. Yeah, I guess when men and women are dead, they will have received equal treatment...And is the US arguing for unequal treatment? Of of course not. Go ask the Shiites.

The bulk of the worry hear is that think what you want about Aznar, but the concern with much of the board is on the policy pronouncements of Z. Tell me of the sense of a full retreat other than to give Al Q EXACTLY what they wanted?

Heaven forbid you hold any position of authority which requires decision making that impacts of the welfare of the young and honest...

I concur with Al and Cali, but deibid, I still don't think it's a smart move to not be allies with the US. Terrorists will not just leave you alone. We may have supported a fascist, hell, we supported Stalin during WWII but kept him at arms length, but it is sometimes necessary to pick the lesser of two evils.

"Tell me of the sense of a full retreat other than to give Al Q EXACTLY what they wanted?"

I'll tell you as Madrileño:

to give US, the people, EXACTLY what WE wanted.

There's something that you don't understand. You seem to assume that AFTER the bombing, maybe BECUSE of the bombing, Zapatero has decided to retreat troops.

It's NOT TRUE. Troops retreat was part of the Socialist's program, they always intended to do so.
And the people knew that and voted consequently.
We are not cowards and we are not stupid.

The_Keeper, thank you for your comments!

Right now, the war is over. He is basically pulling troops from a humanitarian mission.

Deibid,

>>>We don't have any reasons to be USA's allies.
Not that it's a bad thing, anyway.<<<

Care to elaborate on such a careless and offensive statement??

Firstly please read the whole of this posting. I am not in any way defending the hideous regime under Saddam Hussein, I am pointing out simople historical fact.
Regarding the women's rights part of my posting, I was replying to a previous poster who had used it as an example of why the US wanted to go into Iraq. This was one area where, Hussein had a much better record than the rest of the region, he encouraged women to take positions of importance and prior to the first Gulf war instituted a policy of equivalence ensuring that women received education and training. I am not defending Hussein, but was simply trying to point out that here the previous poster had mistaken Iraq for Afghanistan who had an awful record of the mistreatment of women. The burkha is not a symbol of the mistreatment of women.

I know, Kevin.
And I'm sure that the majority of the voters didn't intend that "they leave us alone"
You assume that we voted moved by fear.
I assure you that we voted in full RAGE against the gov. that lied us and tried to take profit from DEATH.
We don't need to attack Iraq to defend ourselves from the terrorists. I think that's an error, as most Spaniards do.
You think otherwise... well, I do respect you.

How did that sentence offend you?
I don't get it. May be it's a language thing?

I'm glad I don't stereotype Spaniards with that sentiment, Al. I pray no Americans on the board do either. I am capable, as you guys have seen about my French statements. That comes from how they acted when they tried to bribe Camaroon, when secret ties were found between Chirac and Hussein, and their attempts to veto us in the UN. THAT I could get over and realize that ALL French people weren't like that. What I COULDN'T get over....and it's something I am dealing with, is when French people desecrated the graves of English and American soldiers at the WWI and WWII gravesites. I don't know how Spaniards felt about that but it still boils my blood.

With that said, I hope and pray Spaniards aren't stereotyped into one group as I have seen on these boards lately. "I" think it was a grave mistake, but I wouldn't go as far as calling anyone cowards. Again, the US pulled out of Somalia and basically gave UBL a mental victory. My French problem, well, that's one I am trying to work out within my Heart with God's help but it basically parallels how I feel about Jane Fonda.

The_Keeper you ARE trying to defend Saddam. Let me draw a parallel,

"Well, Hitler wasn't so bad, he built schools, railroads, highways, new "prisons", and boosted their economy after it was ravaged after WWI".

NOTE: I am not trying AT ALL to defend Hitler. I only wish he could have been found alive so he could be killed. Cowardly bastard.

Kevin, Please do not tell me what I am doing. After 36 years I kinda think I have got the idea. I say again, the original poster was confusing Afgahnistan with Iraq. Sorry for being accurate. I guess i should let the truth stand in the way of a good story huh!

M.

Well, if you had read anything I have posted in the past few days about the Middle East, I have also stated I do not believe Saudi Arabia is our ally as they play both sides. As far as other human right's atrocities, well, I am all for freeing the oppressed all over the world. Don't know what kind of movies you get there but if you can find it, rent "Tears of the Sun". Two nurses I know here in Augusta are from Nigeria and escaped due to the religious cleansing by the radical Muslims in that country (They are Christians). I think it is EVERY civilized nation's responsibility to rout out human right's atrocities all over the world. That is the only way to peace. ...and that is a response from one of God's children, not a Caucasian, an American, a Georgian, or anything else.

Kevin and Wolf,
Tonight, I raise a glass of vino tinto in your honor. Just so impressed by the consistently mature and principled statements you guys have posted.

Saludos, A

...and I raise my Guinness to you. You know, being Scottish-Irish. Salute.

Kev, see my post on Al-Q and their A+. Report from CNN. Just brilliant in an evil way. Tactically, reminds me of Clinton's move to the center following his hiring of Dick Morris. Say what you will about the guy, but the move was of sheer political brilliance. These guys are no less saavy. They know the buttons of the West and are doing a good job at leveraging Europe's reluctance vs. the US. Z's commenbts so far are textbook.

I am sure Tom Clancy is taking notes for a future book, while shaking his head in disgust...

Clancy...

Not mad at him, I love his books, but mad at the movie producers about his last film, "The Sum of All Fears". That book was about Islamic Terrorists but what did they replace them with to be "politically correct"? White Neo-Nazis.

I respect the hell out of Dick Morris. He and Hillary didn't get along, but that's another story. I will be the first to admit that William Jefferson Clinton was as brilliant a politician as I have ever seen. I can't stand his damn wife. The simple fact that it happened on 3/11, 911 days after 9/11, should show people how these people are capable of conspiring. I totally agree this was a coordinated attack that was meant to disrupt the coalition's efforts at routing out terrorism and it appears they had a small victory. I wish people would realize that you cannot negotiate with terrorists. I keep repeating this but Bill Clinton pulled us out of Somalia after 18 Rangers and Delta were killed when we were there to bring stability to the region and feed the Somalians. War is war. People die. I am not marginalizing the soldiers lives, as I was one, but that is a chance we take and one we take freely as we are all, well, in the States, volunteers. I, and no other soldier I knew, took our oath lightly. The pulling out of Somalia showed UBL that we didn't have the stomach to see GI's come home in bodybags. In Vietnam we were losing on average of 500 a week. To see people today compare Iraq with Vietnam makes my blood boil. With what we have accomplished, as bad as it sounds, the achievements we have made outweight the costs. If they didn't, we wouldn't be there. I pray to GOD that we never have to factor the costs of lives into the protection of our, and our allies, freedom, as freedom isn't free and the price is almost always blood.

What in the bloody hell did the Spanish soldiers do? I would have mass punished my entire squad if they were to "taunt" the departing Spanish soldiers.

Just ignore him Kevin.

The problem is very easy:

Socialists (Zapatero - PSOE) sold people we were supporting a conquering war, thus, creating a fear we could be attacked in reprisal. He obviously didn't believed he was going to win now, but expected to rise and win in four years. In four years our troops would have come back and he wouldn't have to comply with his promise.

But... the bombings were misserably used by some sectors and mass media. They convinced people that the Government was hiding information to win the polls, and also that a cause-effect relation existed in the attacks (cause being support to war, effect the bombings). They even managed to gather demonstrations in front of PP sites (one was burnt in La Coruña). This discontent made people massively vote (along with a sense that the answer to the attacks should be to vote).

In my opinion the result couldn't be worst. We have ended make it appear we changed the Government in response to the bombings, which couldn't be better for terrorists.

The problem is that our left parties have used the most sensitive matters in order to achieve victory, which is a great big error. We are going to pay a high toll for this, I'm sure.

This happens when you have an inmature democracy in which not every party seeks national interest, but party's own interests.

Fernando

Unfortunately Fernando,

It can just as easily happen in older, more established democracies. I am just proud that yours was one of the first, if not the first country, to offer us aid when we needed it.

Madridman,

Are you sure that 80% of the Spanish population opposed our war in Iraq, or is that just what the press is saying? I must assume that the Spanish/European press, is as unreliable as our own nowadays.

Keeper,

My reference to the burka was intended to draw
Afghanistan into the mix. Both were oppressive governments, and both denied people their rights. One under the veil of the burka and total mind control like the Taliban, the other under the heel of a ruthless dictator who was systematically destroying any opposition through genocide. In neither case was the "ruling party" the actual majority of the people. But, in the bowels of Iraq stands the majority of the population. Shiites. Inside their beliefs stands the burka, and if they have their way, every woman in Iraq will be in one as soon as the coalition forces leave. You can count on their dogs of war being turned loose on the rest of the Iraqi population as soon as the opportunity presents itself.

As for my questions, they were valid. She has not answered them, and will not answer them. I wouldn't either, because doing so would prove I either support oppression or would fight against it. In her case, she can accept its existence because they haven't come for her. Yet! But who will be there for her when it's her turn? There would be nobody left.

Wolf

gazpacho asked: I think it was a USATODAY.com article that said the number was more like a 90% Spanish opposition to their government's participation in Iraq.

Oh. And by the way, everyone. I've begun deleting the Spain-bashing postings by these new drifters. I'm keeping a close eye on them all. Don't worry. SPAIN BASHERS ARE NOT WELCOME HERE!

Saludos, MadridMan

From a previous post:
>>>We don't have any reasons to be USA's allies.
Not that it's a bad thing, anyway.<<<

At this moment, US troops are crawling through the desert and mountains of Afghanistan, in awful conditions, still hunting members of the terrorist group that just killed hundreds of Spanish people in Madrid. I don't think there are any Spanish troops with them; if there are they won't be there long.
There are, however, British troops in Afghanistan. Judging from the posts on the BBC forums, many or most British are just itching to bring their troops home too. So, when the expected Al Qaeda attack hits London, I would not be surprised by immediate British elections and a similar national capitulation as just happened in Spain. And then the US troops will find themselves all alone fighting Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.
Something about this picture makes me extremely angry as I read posts like that above. If its the United States against the world, I throw my lot in with the United States.

Gazpacho: I'm ashamed of some of the decisions my countrymen have taken. But I can only accept them and make every possible effort to make it not happen again.

As for the 80% of the population not wanting the war, I think it is true. People don't like wars. Civil wars are more horrible even and (thanks to the left which uses every possible oportunity to remind us) spaniards won't support any war unless our territory is menaced.

That, combined with the dubious reasons for making war, a wrong explanation to the people from our Government, and the use the left did of it to erode the Government, made people to be massively against this war.

In the past (First Iraq's War, Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia) people did support war.

Fernando

Pat Burger, please don't be close minded.

There are spanish troops in Afghanistan. We have lost there almost 50 soldiers.

It is a lack of respect to other countries who have troops in either Afghanistan and Iraq not to count of them. In both countries there are troops of more than 50 countries (Australia, Poland, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Japan,...).

Fernando

OK, sorry, point taken, I didn't know Spanish troops were in Afghanistan.
But, will they stay there under the Socialist government?

OK, sorry, point taken, I didn't know Spanish troops were in Afghanistan.
But, will they stay there under the Socialist government?

The president to be has said nothing about them.

I think they are in the same legal situation as the Iraq's troops, but socialists didn't said nothing about them, so I guess they will stay. Moreover, I don't think our president to be is willing to face additional international discredit by calling them back.

Fernando

Fernando,

If you polled Americans and asked them the following questions, what do you think the response would be?
Notice the difference in the questions...

1) Are you against war?
2) Are you for peace?
3) Is killing always the right way to solve problems?
4) Do you like sending your military to intervene overseas?

versus
5) Would you agree with your country going to war under certain cirsumstances?
6) IS it sometimes necessary to go to war to ensure that there be peace in the world?
7) IS the use of lethal force sometimes necessary to achieve a particular political or military objective?
8) Would you rather have your military sons and daughters home with you rather than dodging bullets overseas to help out a friend, ally, or simply a country in need?

Answers...
1) YES
2) YES
3) NO
4) NO
5) YES
6) YES
7) YES
8) YES

The folks in Kum-Ba-Ya Land only think of life in terms of 1-4, reflecting a life of eilitism and hypocrisy that is a downright insult to those who had NO CHOICE but to fight for their survival or beliefs.

YEs, the US govt has made many, many mistakes in its 200+ years, but these most wrenching of these were those in which we did not have the courage to stand up with enough passion for and commitment to our beliefs--with only a scant few because we were overzealous in our attempts.

Cheers to you

Completely agreed.

The problem is that people (perhaps also because US Government doesn't sell it well) only want to see the errors.

In Bosnia 20,000 moslems were killed by serbs in front of the eyes of hollish troops, who did nothing to protect them. It has to be US who put the serbs in their place. We were not able even to solve a conflict in our own continent since the WWII, always asking for aid to US. It is not fair then to criticize US at every possible chance.

It is also true, however, that US Government not always have the necessary tact to deal with certain countries. Sometimes is better to use politics (like in North Korea) than bullets and bombs, other times force is the unique solution. But it should always be the last solution.

Fernando

MadridMan, I want to start this off by saying that I have no intentions of bashing any country. People on your message board are posting opinions and opinions only. Sometimes opinions can be taken offensive and thought of as a personal attack and retaliate with offensives of thier own. Your message board is a place where people feel like they're being heard even if the politians aren't reading. Everyone has something to say and they're saying it. I apologize if me pointing out the terroristic attack and the change of vote status in Spain as a example. My remark was only for educational as an old intel person myself. You choose to delete some post that you think are bashing and choose to leave others up that I'm pretty sure others believe still are bashing.(to any country) Intensional blatant bashing, I agree, should be deleted. You have that authority to silence others. Its your site, but, with all due respect, how does leaving other bashing remarks up make it right?

P.S. Mine was one you removed

YOu are dead right about selling it well. ON this point, the right has been HORRIBLE both in terms of who they choose to manage things, their priority, and how they actually try to pull it off. HORRIBLE.

LOok at California politics. Gray Davis, perhaps the most pathetic governor in the history of the state. THat opinion was felt by both sides. Pathetic, but yet he wins two straight elections.

To be sure, lots of BUMBLING. Bill CLinton himself would be a better Republican leader than 50% of the Republicans!!

But is SOOOO important not to throw the baby out with the bath water!! Important to separate things: personnel, ideas, strategy, tactics, marketing, etc.

Need2knowbasis,
We're a Spain-centered forum here, clearly. The vast majority of people who come here, before the bombings and elections, were all people who love Spain or who were soon traveling there and seeking information. This is NOT a political message board and it won't become that. But these are political days in Spain and things do need to be discussed. But they need to be discussed MATURELY and without graphic remarks and slurs, name-calling and nastiness.

We had a number of newly registered members jumping in here looking to cause trouble and ruffle the feathers of all our Spanish members and Spain-lovers. They were trouble-makers in my eyes. We don't need them 'round these parts. I don't mind discussions in opposition to Spain's political decisions, not at all, but ONLY when they're carried out maturely and with respect to others, PARTICULARLY to our Spanish counterparts.

I hope that explains it well enough. This whole election topic has my head spinning with all the new activity on the message board. I'm quite upset with how many people are mouthing off. We're a mature, respectful and respectible group of adults here and we certainly don't need anyone shoving their flags or their opinions down our throats until we choke and TELLING us what is right and wrong. Have a little respect for the choice of the people of Spain. My god. The last few days of fanatical postings by some new members has made me feel a bit ashamed and I HATE feeling that way.

Sincerely, MadridMan

Thanks MM, once again you came through.

Spain's character has been measured and now we'll all get to see how tall it looks against the shadow of the world in the years to come. All we can do is wait and see. The people of Spain have spoken. They've made their choice. Now let's all allow them to live with their choice, whether it's right or wrong, good or bad. It's really none of our business.

And you know. The time just feels right to close this topic. Shazzzzam! Done....

So... to change the channel, who's going to some of Andalucía's smaller villages for Semana Santa? Is it all booked up? I'd love to find a tiny little hillside village to spend a couple days during my time in Spain next month.

Saludos, MadridMan <click!>