Spanglish

Posted by: esperanza

Spanglish - 01/07/04 07:27 PM

I came across this today and thought it was worth reading...especially for the Spaniards on the site who may not realize how Spanish is sometimes spoken here in the US by some Spanish-speakers ( as well as my own students at times!):

¿Cuántas palabras inglesas (anglicismos falsos) hay en esta historia de un chico especial?

El chico fue en bas a la marqueta a comprar grocerías pero cuando arrivó notó que no tenía pan; ni coras, nicles, daimes o tostones...sacó afuera su dinero y sólo eran unos penis. No fue en su limón, un carro estándar, porque estaba en el garage con un mal cloche y peores brecas. Volvió atrás a su casa con su amigo que le dio un raite. Había tenido carros; un van, un jeep, un camper y otros, pero todos eran yalopas, y encontró que costaba mucho dinero componerlos. Él no podía arreglar sus coches porque nunca manejó terminar automecánica en la jai escul a causa de que no se podía tragar el tícher de la clase, que era el vice principal de la escuela...no le caía bien, aunque el míster Jones era buen gringo.

Este chico pretería cortar clases, ir al cho, bulchetear con sus amigos de su ganga, decir "te guacho" y tener un buen tiempo en partis. Como gastaba mucho empezó a tener muchas drogas y no les ayudaba a su padres con ni uno de los biles. Después, él realizó que necesitaba profesión y trató de enrolarse en un instituto vocacional. Se registró, y hizo su aplicación de becas. Ahora deseaba suceder...asumió que podía...pero...no hubo chance...No tenía diploma de Ia escuela alta o buenos grados. iPobre! Pero, ahora sería industrioso para probarles a todos que no era un fallado. Iba a improvarse.

Y entonces le dio duro...y chambió como loco. Estuvo en un dompe, fue a los files y como no sabía como piscar, lo pusieron de troquero, checaba tíquetes en un draivín, media bloques para la ciudad, ayudó al sherife, trabajó en una factoría de rines, fue trainer de beisbol, ayudante menor del mayor de la ciudad, manejador de un troque de agua y de un picap pulando trailas y puchando carros yonqueados al parqueamiento de la ciudad. Bueno, a los veintiunos años, él ya había tenido un bonche de chambas, pero no estaba satisfecho ya que no usaba los resorces de la ciudad.

Decidió estudiar en el júnior college de Chabot. Él iba a taipear y a estudiar español y inglés remedial. Le fue bien pero en español no duró mucho porque el profesosr se reía cuando éI decía cosas como "mecha", "mi zinc liquea", "chutear y cachar la pelota", "él telefón", el "traque del tren" y otras palabras que irritaban el profesor. Salió de la clase y no volvió.

Se motivó, finalmente, en sus otras clases y más, y llegó a ser algo. Sí, pero todavía no tenía mucho dinero...su esposa se lo llevaba de él siempre o la insuranza quería todo. ¡Pero era un entrepenur ahora! Tenía su negocio...y nuevo, rentaba videos. Lo comenzó en Navidad y ahora lo ha estado ope-rando por tres meses. Los amigos le dieron las congratulaciones y le llevaron presentes, como chones, chores y chus muy bonitos en una parti sorpresa cuando abrió su "vide video." Todos le deseamos suerte.



here is where I found this!
Posted by: Fernando

Re: Spanglish - 01/08/04 08:40 AM

It is hardly understandable, more if you don't speak english smile

Spanglish is a very curious mix of spanish and english. However, I really prefer english and spanish separated, adapting words from one language to the other when it is really necessary (i.e. no equivalent word exists in the other language).

Fernando
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Spanglish - 01/08/04 09:07 AM

Uffff! frown
Posted by: Booklady

Re: Spanglish - 01/08/04 10:17 AM

My pet peeve is when students call the
biblioteca a libreria! They equate, incorrectly, the English library with the Spanish libreria, because the words look and sound alike. rolleyes
Posted by: esperanza

Re: Spanglish - 01/08/04 11:15 AM

Please do not think that I like or "get a kick out of" Spanglish...it drives me NUTS! My students tend to put an "o" at the end of a word to make it Spanish when they do not remember the correct word. The reason I mentioned it to all of you is basically to just show you this craziness.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Spanglish - 01/08/04 12:19 PM

Booklady: At first I made exactly the inverse mistake when learning English.

Esperanza: My 'thumbs down' sign and my frown weren't dedicated to you. smile I thank you for the input. I had heard that stuf to a peruvian friend of mine who has lived for years in California, but never saw it written.
It's that unnecessarily hybrid language that I hate. I would rather have Spain speak English (proper English) than that freak.

smile
Posted by: Fernando

Re: Spanglish - 01/08/04 01:27 PM

When I was in my school years, we tended to add the suffix "-ation" to a spanish to automaticly convert any words we didn't remember in english laugh

Of course, our english teacher had a mix of desperation and laugh. laugh

Fernando
Posted by: esperanza

Re: Spanglish - 01/08/04 01:56 PM

thanks Ignacio smile ( I just felt that I needed to clarify my post!!)
Posted by: virmonsal

Re: Spanglish - 01/10/04 11:02 PM

What chaps my hide is those people who don’t understand that language is about communication and who get indignant and take on tones of superiority if the language is not spoken according to the rules of the Real Academia. Did the passage cited in Spanglish communicate meaning to me? Absolutely! And with a little effort, I'll bet it does for many people.

For those of us who are third, fourth, fifth or even sixth generation Hispanics from the southwest U.S., it’s a miracle anyone even continues to speak any kind of Spanish, given that the dominant culture has done its level best to eradicate it. Try growing up illiterate and uneducated in your native language and see how fine yourlanguage sounds. Try being a six-year old and getting a good ear-twisting from the teacher for speaking Spanish on the playground. I wonder how encouraged you would be to continue.
I, for one, am grateful for the evolution of the language. It could well be a dead one here, were it not that people can adapt it to suit their purposes.
Posted by: miche_dup1

Re: Spanglish - 01/11/04 03:47 AM

I'm wondering now whether to speak, write and talk "proper" would mean trying to communicate the best way one can rather than to shut up for fear of making a mistake. Because that would mean Ignacio and Fernando and many other Spanish members should not write in English since, after years of practicing English, they still cannot write "proper" English."(I had heard that stuf to a peruvian friend of mine)". Eh?!!

But hey I know what Ignacio is trying to say.

Ok, the context is different, but not that much since all that we are wishing to do is to communicate and express ourselves the best way possible/to the best of our abilities. God knows, I find it hard in my own language sometimes and so I appreciate the efforts made and only wish my Spanish was as good as Fernando's and Ignacio's English is.

Perhaps Spanglish is more comendable since it is a 'creative' phenomena rather than the odd spelling and grammer mistake here and there.

Hasta later,
Michelle.
(Whose "bete noir" is English grammer).
wink
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Spanglish - 01/11/04 07:57 AM

Virmonsal:

To be sincere, I don't like very much the rules of the Real Academia, because they are too "popular", and include too many neologisms and anglicisms. They are contributing to the decadence of the spanish language, precisely through some unnecesary blend with others.

If people speak some spanish in their second generation in some states in the USA, it is not to do something heroic, as you seem to mean, but to communicate with their family and friends, ho use it also.

However, I believe many people speak that jergon just because they think it's cool. Sounds great in a rap, for example, no? (for you, maybe). I believe this hybrid language, doesn't bring any good, it's only a proof of the degradation of the Spanish in their mouths (since they can also speak american English), and what is worse, that they wouldn't speak it at al (perhaps they would speak english only, but well, at least) unless it sounded cool to them.

So, in my opinion, they are not trying to protect their ancestors language, but to be more lke popular, with very few respect for that venerable language.

Miche:

Folowing your example, I, and I believe Fernando, try to speak the best English we can. If we can't do better, it's not because we don't try the harder possible. We don't insert spanish words all along the text, pronounced wrongly, and above all, we don't do it on purpose.

If our grammar is not perfect, maybe it a 7 out or 10 or a 8 out of 10, or whatever, but not 2 out of 10.
Posted by: la maestra

Re: Spanglish - 01/11/04 05:11 PM

Virmonsal, I don't think the quoted passage makes sense to people who don't already know English...and that is why I fight Spanglish every chance I get. When Spanish speakers feel the language they speak on the border is the same Spanish the rest of the Spanish speaking world speaks and never bother to learn "textbook" Spanish, they limit themselves to only being able to communicate with others like themselves. There are so many opportunities for heritage speakers who never studied the language in school to learn "textbook" Spanish (what we might call standard as opposed to colloquial or regional) that there is no excuse for not doing so other than not wanting to.
Posted by: Fernando

Re: Spanglish - 01/12/04 10:04 AM

A language is a tool to communicate with other people yes, and sometines it is an end itself (literature, poestry,...).

I think we are not talking about speaking perfect spanish (or english). Look the world's spanish, you will find that bolivians spanish is different from Spain's spanish, oh, Spain's spanish... as if we all spoke with the same accent! I may hardly understand a catalonian speaking spanish if his accent is very closed. Hey! Even in Madrid we have our own specific accent, vocabulary and grammatical differences (though it is slightly different from what is considered "super-correct").

So after some generations you can't speak spanish perfect... How is it possible?! smile I think nobody will be rush to you if you try to speak with your super-yankee accent or if you make some mistakes (moreover if you are one of those few americans who are descendent of an ancient spanish, we are very proud of that community). That is one thing, and spanglish is a completely different phenomena.

The heirs of the ancient spanish jews (sefards) conserve a variety of spanish (spoken and conserved since they were forced to leave Spain five centuries ago!).

Everyone is free to speak whatever language he wants to, english, spanish, spanglish, elf or venusian, but the thing is that the wisest effort is to study (and trying to speak) languages as spread as possible. With spanglish you will be able to communicate some people, but you will be hardly understood in Central and South America and in Spain, and even less with forgeiners (who will usually speak better spanish than ourselves laugh ).

Fernando

PD: Miche, thanks for your comments about my poor english wink
Posted by: miche_dup1

Re: Spanglish - 01/12/04 09:49 PM

arrgh,
Fernando, I did not say you have poor English, I have poor Spanish, and to be honest I wish my English was a lot better too, but I keep learning like we all do to improve ourselves.

And that's just it. At least 'we' have the means to. At least we are able to study and have had the privilige to have been able to study and continue studying. Not everyone does and it's that much harder if one comes from a poor background and then grow up with very little incentive and confidence to learn.

If we sometimes can't even understand each other speaking the same language, then why even bother speaking another language or even worse a supposedly universal language -Esperanto.
(idea from Unamuno's 'Mist').

Perhaps when we all try and speak a foreign language we try and convert words which we think may convey what it is we wish to say.
Remember funny things like an English speaking person saying, "soy un poco embrasada" for "I'm a bit embarrased". It's about taking the plunge into the unknown and it's not easy, but as long as you can be understood, I think it's ok.

Also remember that for English speakers Spanish is supposed to be easier. So perhaps it's not that strange that the two should eventually fuse together. Like it or not, it shows just how huge the Spanish and English language users there are in this world, and with boundaries breaking......

Perhaps Spanglish will become a new language.
Posted by: Jo-Anne

Re: Spanglish - 01/13/04 04:34 AM

miche - I seem to remember you and I having our rubbish English grammar corrected in the chat room now and then by a certain native Spanish speaker wink

I was never taught grammar at school (I was at a Comprehensive in the UK during an 'experimental' time in the 1970's), so the language I use is is what I have heard and read, and what sounds right. I know no rules. Because of this, I think I would find it really really hard to learn a new language - I don't have the familiarity with the terminology to learn it academically.

I could therefore envisage me becoming a prime user of Spanglish :o

PS miche - I'm not sure, but I think Fernando was thanking you because HE thinks his English is poor confused But of course we know it isn't laugh
Posted by: Fernando

Re: Spanglish - 01/13/04 08:38 AM

Yes, I was not being ironic wink I was really thanking Miche for saying that my english is good (you should hear me speaking... you would probably change your opinion hehehe).

Fernando
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Spanglish - 01/13/04 11:29 AM

Well, Fernando, if you think she was saying our English was good, then you should go back to your English classes. wink :p laugh Read it again!

I just imagined a good example:

When I speak with my peruvian friends, they use a lot of slang that comes from quechua language (from the Incas), my ecustorian friends have some mixes with native languages, the argentinian speak a percentage of italian words and grammar mixed, and we also use some slang. All of us use anglicisms, neologisms, and other "isms".

That`s exactly what corrupts the language, making it dificult to understand each other. If spanglish became popular it would be a horrible notice for Spanish, and for English too?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Spanglish - 01/13/04 11:30 AM

Well, Fernando, if you think she was saying our English was good, then you should go back to your English classes. wink :p laugh Read it again!

I just imagined a good example:

When I speak with my peruvian friends, they use a lot of slang that comes from quechua language (from the Incas), my ecustorian friends have some mixes with native languages, the argentinian speak a percentage of italian words and grammar mixed, and we also use some slang. All of us use anglicisms, neologisms, and other "isms".

That`s exactly what corrupts the language, making it dificult to understand each other. If spanglish became popular it would be a horrible notice for Spanish, and for English too?
Posted by: SRedw

Re: Spanglish - 01/13/04 12:36 PM

I actually love to hear SPANGLISH spoken. I don't have a problem with it at all. As I have said before, and has fallen on blind eyes, there is a time for SPANGLISH, where? On the corner with your friends or at home.

Shawn
Posted by: miche_dup1

Re: Spanglish - 01/13/04 06:09 PM

Fernando, thanks.

Jo-Anne, I remember having one lesson in English grammer and it was all gobbledygook. So at that age I was thinking I must be stupid.
And yes I remember a certain Spanish member correcting our English!!! lol. lol.

A novel by 'Ana Lydia Vega', a Puerto Rican author won the 'premio internacional Juan Rulfo' with 'Pasion de historia y otras historias de pasion'. As well as other prizes.

As well as using Spanish typical to Puerto Rico, she uses a considerable amount of Spanglish words in her writing and yet she has success. So, it's not just people who have little education who use Spanglish and Spanglish is not isolated to the US alone. If the Spanish adopt words for convenience now and then, it's not surprising that countries like Puerto Rico and South America use a greater imput of English or mixed English in their language.
Posted by: Rocinante

Re: Spanglish - 01/16/04 06:31 PM

I think a point worth clarifying regarding the original "Spanglish" posting is that while the primary function of language is to communicate meaning, - which in this case the Spanglish does, especially for a Spanish speaker residing in souther California for example - it is disheartening to see these speach patterns accepted as normal, legitimate Spanish amongst 'native speakers' in this particular region.

In other words, these 2nd and 3rd generation spanish speakers use verbs like 'arivó' and expressions like 'pagar el bil' believing they are speaking perfect Spanish, and there are no attempts to educate them to the purer form of the language.

Furthermore, it is often noted by high school and college level Spanish teachers that it is extremely difficult and frustrating to 'correct' or 'unlearn' (if you will) such tendencies amongst the speakers of this form of Spanish, especially if the instructor is a non-native speaker, due to the issue of a lack of credibility. "What do you know anyway; I've been speaking it this way all my life in my community. You learned in school and have a funny accent, etc."

This is one negative aspect of teaching (not to mention long hours and low pay) that has kept me from pursuing a teaching career here in Los Angeles. I could always teach French though smile
Posted by: Rocinante

Re: Spanglish - 01/16/04 06:34 PM

Don't forget that were it not for the degradation and mixing of languages, there would be no Spanish, French, Portuguese, Italian, Catalan, or English for that matter. It would all be classical latin. Languages evolve and change despite the strongest conservative efforts to slow it's constant development.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Spanglish - 01/17/04 05:52 AM

True, and wouldn't that be better? wink smile
Posted by: DCS

Re: Spanglish - 01/18/04 04:22 PM

I couldn't resist posting this. I found this on an ebay store description run by an American "native Spanish" speaker.
Quote:
Hablamos Espanol-Sientanse libra a communicar con nosotros
Spanglish at its best?
Posted by: Fernando

Re: Spanglish - 01/19/04 08:37 AM

Well, that is called by experts "Linear translation of a concept". That is, someone who speaks (and thinks) in english, literally translating it into spanish. It is understandable, it is even gramaticly correct (except obviously that "libra" instead of "libre"), though no spanish-speaker would say it that way (to my knowledge).

I think that spanglish would go one step further, by mixing english and spanish words (and even some invented ones). laugh

Fernando
Posted by: virmonsal

Re: Spanglish - 01/20/04 11:40 PM

It’s hard to overcome the influence of English when you are a Spanish-speaker raised in the U.S. My experience with the “natural” i.e., unschooled, American Hispanics is that they are generally curious about and eager to learn, the correct expressions (particularly the older ones). Even though Spanglish doesn’t bother me, it would be nice to see the pendulum swing back and hear people speak standard Spanish, if in fact they really ever did. I think the spread of Spanish television has helped a lot of southwestern Hispanics learn to use a lot of different words that weren’t in their vocabulary before (never mind that a lot of it comes from telenovelas, which isn’t exactly Borges or Cela). I was always amused to hear my father-in-law use expressions such as
“Es un canalla” or “La chica es una cualquiera”, knowing full well that neither “canalla”, nor “chica”, nor “una cualquiera” were expressions that he had ever used before in his life until he started watching telenovelas after Spanish televisión broadcasting came to New Mexico and Colorado 12 to 15 years ago. Just the other night, as a matter of fact, my 85-year old mother-in-law asked me what a “manantial” was. I knew immediately that she had gleaned that particular word from a telenovela which has that word in its title. Now that she knows what it is, I suspect she is just dying for an occasion to try out her new word on somebody.
And the beat goes on….
Posted by: Booklady

Re: Spanglish - 01/22/04 09:25 PM

Apparently the Spanglish phenomena is alive and well in Spain, too! Or is it Engspan? eek Actually, our friend and resident expert, La Maestra tells me it is called "Code-Switching" it sounds like it hurts! eek

El Castellano realmente EXCELENTE

Este es el texto que una señora de Madrid, Ana María, envió a Radio Nacional de España para que lo leyera en uno de sus programas:

Antaño los niños leían tebeos en vez de comics, los estudiantes pegaban posters creyendo que eran carteles, los empresarios hacían negocios en vez de business, y los obreros, tan ordinarios ellos, sacaban la fiambrera al mediodía en vez del tupper-ware.

Yo, en el colegio, hice aerobic muchas veces, pero, tonta de mí, creía que hacía gimnasia. Nadie es realmente moderno si no dice cada día cien palabras en inglés. Las cosas, en otro idioma, nos suenan mucho mejor. Evidentemente, no es lo mismo decir bacon que panceta, aunque tengan la misma grasa, ni vestíbulo que hall ni inconveniente que handicap.

Desde ese punto de vista, los españoles somos modernísimos. Ya no decimos bizcocho, sino plum-cake, ni tenemos sentimientos, sino feelings. Sacamos tickets, compramos compacts, comemos sandwiches, vamos al pub, practicamos el rappel y el raffting , en lugar de acampar hacemos camping y, cuando vienen los fríos, nos limpiamos los mocos con kleenex.

Esos cambios de lenguaje han influido en nuestras costumbres y han mejorado mucho nuestro aspecto. Las mujeres no usan medias, sino panties y los hombres no utilizan calzoncillos, sino slips, y después de afeitarse se echan after shave, que deja la cara mucho mas fresca que el tónico.

El español moderno ya no corre, porque correr es de cobardes, pero hace footing; no estudia, pero hace masters y nunca consigue aparcar pero siempre encuentra un parking. El mercado ahora es el marketing; el autoservicio, el self-service; el escalafón, el ranking y el representante, el manager. Los importantes son vips, los auriculares walkman, los puestos de venta stands, los ejecutivos yuppies; las niñeras baby-sitters, y hasta nannies, cuando el hablante moderno es, además, un pijo irredento. En la oficina, el jefe esta siempre en meetings o brain storms, casi siempre con la public-relations, mientras la asistant envía mailings y organiza trainings; luego se irá al gimnasio a hacer gim-jazz, y se encontrará con todas las de la jet, que vienen de hacerse liftings, y con alguna top-model amante del yoghurt light y el body-fitness.

El arcaico aperitivo ha dado paso a los cocktails, donde se jartan a bitter y a roast-beef que, aunque parezca lo mismo, engorda mucho menos que la carne.

Ustedes, sin ir más lejos trabajan en un magazine, no en un programa. En la tele, cuando el presentador dice varias veces la palabra O.K. y baila como un trompo por escenario la cosa se llama show, bien distinto, como saben ustedes, del anticuado espectáculo; si el show es heavy es que contiene carnaza y si es reality parece el difunto diario El Caso, pero en moderno. Entre medias, por supuesto, ya no ponen anuncios, sino spots que, aparte de ser mejores, te permiten hacer zapping. Estas cosas enriquecen mucho.

Para ser ricos del todo, y quitarnos el complejo tercermundista que tuvimos en otros tiempos, solo nos queda decir con acento americano la única palabra que el español ha exportado al mundo: la palabra SIESTA."

Espero que os haya gustado. laugh

----------
Globalism at work, Hooray for Manuel Castells!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Spanglish - 01/23/04 03:19 AM

I had read it before. It's a sarcastic comment about the unnecessary terms that we take form English.

It's obvious that words like football (futbol) have became part of the Spanish language, and it's allright because they define something new (and football was new 100 years ago when the word futbol became popular), although I would habve preferred balompié, same as basketball is called baloncesto (but for in Cataluña, where they call it "basket".

There are other words, like "sandwhich" that also define a very particular kind of bocadillo, it's not just any bocadillo, but an "american style bocadillo. Spanish bocadillos are made with "una barra de pan", or what you would call french bread, and in the old times with a torta.

A "sandwich", in spanish from Spain doen's mean at all one of these traditional bocadillos, but the American one. Two loafs of Bimbo-like (if you know the make) bread with something inside. I would have preferred it to be called bocadillo americano, same as a "café" with a 500% more water than usual is not alled "coffee" but café americano.

Footing is an expression that became popular here (and it's wrong, because the right word would be jogging) for running, yes; however, jogging/footing usually includes some exercises along the route that are not just running. At least, I think so.

So, as you see, there are many words that we took from English that had a special meaning that difference them from Spanish and, so, there is a reason for them, because they add new definitions to the dicitonary.

There are also the Computer Science unfortunate costume to import unnecessary words from English, like driver (=controlador) "enviar un copy" (por "enviar una copia/ una captura, de pantalla"), some scarce words in technical jergon "marketing" (instead of "estudio de mercados" or "mercadeo"), ...

But most of these words are pretty uncommon in the streets but for the said computing environment and people at the street who want to sound "cool", with a despective special mention to "pijos", some of which really believe themselves superior by using English as much as possible.

For example: roast-beef is not a usual expression in Spain. It's pretty uncommon, same as it "spanized" variety "rosbif".

The only people who call certain programs "magazines" are the very newspaper people. people don't.

People just don't speak of manager for gerente, or baby sitters and nannies at all. This lady is exagerating quite a bit, just to support her point (which, BTW, I support too), preserve the language from all unnnecesary new words (which mean the same that older ones, but sound cooler).

However, the comparison with spanglish is like saying a mantis religiosa is the same as the "Alien" monster.





smile cool
Posted by: grayhighlights

Re: Spanglish - 01/23/04 12:23 PM

Why do I get the feeling you are talking about me? :p

How do you say "typiar", in proper spanish? Is it mecanographiar???? I find this hilarious!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Spanglish - 01/23/04 02:34 PM

I guess you maybe speaking of "type". That would be mecanografiar.

Perhaps you could share the joke, because I can not see it.

Mecano (greek) - Machine

-grafiar (from grafos, latin, and greek first) - written.

rolleyes
Posted by: grayhighlights

Re: Spanglish - 01/23/04 04:02 PM

Okee-dokee...as in the diminutive of OK, an affirmation.

I am from Miami...Spanglish is used LIBERALLY. It is used in advertisements, business language, everywhere. You cannot escape it. Hence, my comment of "you must be talking about me". It is second nature, a way of life here...that is why this discussion is funny to me.

I actually read right through the initial post and laughed in acknowledgement. In other words...I got it. Get it?
Posted by: Booklady

Re: Spanglish - 01/23/04 10:31 PM

You got it, Grayhighlights! laugh laugh
Posted by: JoeSambuca

Re: Spanglish - 02/05/04 07:33 PM

I'm probably way too late to join this discussion and my opinion may fall on deaf ears but here I go anyway. Spanglish is here to stay and its elementry, especially in America.
French was at one time the english court language and about 45% of the english vocabulary is of french origin.
Language evolves and changes or else we would still be grunting and pointing at stuff. I think its great to speak perfect spanish and when I'm in Spain I attempt to speak spanish perfectly but the fact of the matter is, when there is a fusion of cultures, there are changes and the bright side is an evolution of ideas, thoughts, and yes even words. Spanglish isn't perfect but what is?

Here's a good sight for those who would like to see a fusion of cultures in America

Nyorican Poets cafe
Posted by: SRedw

Re: Spanglish - 02/06/04 05:09 AM

Joe,

Yes, your post will fall on deaf ears.

Go back and look at the tone of this thread. I have tried to give examples of when Spanglish should be used, but alas, I have the appearance that many people on this thread ignore that languages evolve.

Thanks for a post free of prejudices.

Shawn
Posted by: Booklady

Re: Spanglish - 02/06/04 02:09 PM

My only observation about Spanglish, and please I am not being facetious, but out of academic curiosity, is how the Spanglish lexicon of the language experience of each Spanish speaking group that settles in the U.S. differs.

For example, the lexicon used by the Mexican-Americans in Spanglish, is quite different from the Spanglish that Cuban-Americans use in South Florida. I have not heard the term marqueta, but I have heard South Floridian Spanish-speakers use "el groceri".

This to me is the fascinating part of Spanglish. That even though we are fusing two languages together, we are doing so with multiple lexicons and grammmars. And will the Spanglish speakers of the Southwest be able to comprehend the Spanglish speakers of the East coast, as the language develops, or will there be variant forms of Spanglish?

That's exactly what happened to Vulgar Latin. Variant forms of vulgar latin dialects became the romance languages. Vulgar latin had no real standards like classical latin, each region under the Latin-speaking empire developed their own dialect.

So perhaps a few hundred years from now, what we now know as Spanglish will become a series of languages.
Posted by: omeyas

Re: Spanglish - 02/06/04 03:19 PM

"El spanglish es como un sofá-cama que no sirve ni para dormir ni para sentarse" :p
Frank
Posted by: la maestra

Re: Spanglish - 02/06/04 07:48 PM

Booklady, you are absolutely right, and that's why I fight Spanglish! The variant languages developed in part because the conquering countries imposed their language on the countries they conquered and then moved on. The countries changed the new language because there was no constant model. In some cases, politics became the cause of language variation (Chinese dialects all sound different although the writing is virtually identical and speakers of one dialect claim they cannot understand speakers of another!)

In this age of instant communication and easy travel, it would seem logical to work towards improved communication among the peoples of the world. The speakers of Cuban Spanglish are isolating themselves linguistically from Puerto Rican Spanglish speakers and Mexican Spanglish speakers at a time when mutual understanding would be more beneficial...for political power, if for nothing else.
Posted by: virmonsal

Re: Spanglish - 02/07/04 04:45 AM

I still maintain that different Hispano cultures have little difficulty understanding each other. In spite of Spanglish, their lexicons are more similar than dissimilar. Whatever lack of understanding there is between the various Hispano cultures has little to do with language and more to do with politics and world views (a human condition, I suppose).

That “standard “ Spanish will ever take root here as long as people have opportunities for moving around in the world seems unlikely. If our borders were closed and there weren’t a constant influx of Hispanos from Mexico, Latin America, and the Caribe, there might be a better chance for one lexicon to emerge and solidify. It would be interesting to hear from some Canadians to see if they have similar problems with French or if the French that they speak stabilized once there were no new influxes of French people arriving from France and other French-speaking areas of the world.

It brings to mind a journal article I read years ago that had a particularly interesting take on the criteria by which lexical items (words) became dominant where there were several words for the same thing being used by different Hispano groups in NYC. It involved a study of the lexicons of Puerto Ricans, Dominican Republicans, Cubans, etc. If I recall correctly, the outcome of the study was interesting because the words that won this linguistic survival of the fittest contest ended up being based on the status of each of these groups—a status that quite often had to do with skin color.