Illegal Immigrants

I'd like to get a variety of opinions about illegal immigrants in the U.S. I'll try my best not to be too political about it since it looks like both parties are reading from the same hymnal.

I think that what it looks like the Republicrats are going to pass is a joke. But to preface that, I have to say that I have nothing against people coming over to the U.S. to improve their lot in life. I'm ashamed to think we should turn anyone away from our bountiful table we have here.

But there are people, like my wife, whose family has to wait in a very long line, over 17 years, to come to the U.S. and still aren't here. It seems to betray the fundamental fairness of this country, it encourages illegal entry and can't see how it helps security.

Sure would like to get some other opinions.

It's really quite simple----if he/she is here illegally, deport them! There shouldn't be any politics about it. There are too many people trying the correct way to enter the country as it is now. Why prevent them and allow illegals to stay?
Something is wrong here.

Interesting column on this subject printed yesterday by Lluis Foix in the LaVanguardia newspaper in Barcelona. Here's the link:

www.lavanguardia.es/web/20060406/51243183253.html

My parents were legal immigrants to the U.S. They studied and became citizens after required (5-year) residency. There are millions of us who are descendants of people who arrived with legal status.

It does not surprise me that Latinos & Hispanics who are in the U.S. legally would be against rewarding fence-climbers and river-crossing illegals with a status legal immigrants worked so hard for years to achieve.

I'm against Amnesty for Illegals! We don't know who these people are or what crimes they may have committed wherever they come from. No one should get an immigrant Visa unless they first undergo a rigid background investigation.

I am not against 'Guest workers' who have been coming to the US each year to do 'stoop labor;' but I think they should be paid a decent wage and subject to Federal & State Taxes. Farm owners probably don't like that idea because it might increase their labor costs and require them to keep records and submit 941A's and Taxes withheld.

I have seen Home Construction Companies often using mojados for semi-skilled labor in the HomeBuilding industry. There is also some demand in Golf Course groundskeeping and the Landscaping industry.

There are many employers out there who prefer the status quo (i.e., cheap labor, pay cash and little or no record-keeping).

Something that is never mentioned regarding the immigration debate involves the overall economic health and viability of the USA as a nation. I would argue that we are no longer economically able to accept all the world's refugees and all those who want a better life. I have no problem with those folks seeking a better way of life, but it is high time that other nations shoulder their share of this staggering burden. Our social welfare system is already struggling and state and local governments are crying for more money like never before. Our national industrial capacity has largely been siphoned off to nations with no EPA regulations,no minimum wage, and no unions. Plus, many of these emerging industrial nations have little government regulation of any kind, which is highly attractive to manufacturers. (If you have ever seen the steel mills of central Europe, you know what I mean). As our good manufacturing jobs go, so goes our high standard of living. As you drive your Toyota smugly down Main Street, ever given any thought to what's going to happen if GM really does go bankrupt?

I have no gripe with immigrants, I just think that we are no longer the destination of choice. Let's face it, the USA has begun its transition to a second rate economic power and things don't look very good for the future. We are still the military super power, for now. Many of our critics may not like it when we are no longer "the superpower". Be careful of what you wish for global community!

If you think that packing immigrants into decaying old American industrial cities is doing them any favors, I think you may be mistaken. We are not the country we used to be and I think that other nations must open their borders and accept some of these immigrants.

I sense that some nations that are very critical of us, probably do not encourage immigration in their countries and in fact, may have laws against it. When I travel in Europe, I mainly see Europeans, yeah, yeah, yeah, there are some guest workers in France and Germany, but just try to find large groups of Mexicans or Africans in Austria, Switzerland, or Scandanavia.

Mexico and its inefficient and probably corrupt government must try to better the plight its own nation, rather than to encourage illegal immigration to the USA as a "safety valve".

Mr. Vincente Fox lives in his palacio while his campesinos still live in grinding poverty. Mexico will never improve if we bail out their uncaring goverments through "free for all" immigration.

I think we should develop a "North American Commonwealth with Canada, Mexico, and the US involved, using the US dollar as currency, and open borders for these countries.
Any Mexican or Canadian wanting to work in the US would fork over $2,500.00 (thats what they pay the "Coyotes" now. This money would be used to fund a "health and criminal background check", and due to historic relationships between these countries (A big part of the US used to be Mexico) any "North AMerican" would be able to move and work freely in the Commonwealth including operating small to medium sized business's without any undue tariff's or taxation.
If one wanted citizenship, a five year waiting period would be required with no criminal activity. If this person commits a crime during this period they would get an automatic five year sentence and deportation, if the person returns illegally they would get automatic 10 years in the slammer and deportation.
If Mexico refused this treaty then all Mexican citizens would be immediately rounded up and repatriated. The Armed Forces would man the border
Mexico after oil industry, depends on money's sent back from the US to support the country, and would collapse if this revenue was stopped.
Hey if you got the leverage use it, but the movement of Mexicano's back and forth across the border has been constant since before there was a border and it will never be stopped.
Guest Worker Programs? Forget it, we in the US are losing many many jobs to "Outsourcing" to India, Phillipines, Thailand etc; Why would we consider a "Guest Worker Program" which is just
"Insourcing jobs" which would be $2.00 an hour legally taking from the working class as it now subsists.
Just my two cents!

I agree with you Fulano, without US money sent back to Mexico, there would be real trouble. That "safety valve" allows the Mexican government to continue its traditions of inaction and corruption. Many Mexicans view the US as their enemy, when in reality, it may be their own government.

There really is no political will in our nation to stop this problem. Any reform oriented politician is at least partially paralyzed by fear of being branded as a racist or some other type of "ist" or "ism".

I have to repeat, the US cannot continue like this much longer. Social services costs are high with illegals and we just don't have the money anymore to prop up 10% of the Latin World.

Although the Federal Government tells State and Local governments that they must provide health and education services, regardless of immigrant status, it just funds those services according to Population Census. That places an unnecessary burden on State & Local Governments and Taxpayers.

The U.S. Government still maintains separate Departments for Indian Schools and Indian Health Services for Native Americans BUT they must be able to prove their Ethnicity. I can not avail myself of those services nor can Illegal immigrants, because we are not Registered Native Americans.

If we could only follow a model like this which exists in the U.S. Government: provide Education and Health services only to people Registered; denying them to Illegal immigrants: "show us your Green Card or your work permit or it's Adios!"

I don't know if the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled on the existence of such Native American-only Service providers that continue to function for that sub-population, but it would make an interesting case. Stare Decisis?

Fulano, I like your thinking. Yours is the only proposal I've heard of that might actually work. Forward it on to your representatives in Congress.

I had an interesting conversation with a guy from Honduras. He told me that we as Americans had to prepare ourselves for more immigrants.
He didn't say it as a threat but rather to explain that these people are leaving grinding poverty and corrupt governments to work here for far more money than they can get in their native countries...and nothing will stop them as long as they know there is work here.
I spoke to another guy from Mexico who had just arrived in the USA just 48 hours before. Within 24 hours, he had a job.
The most incredibly stupid aspect of this immigration problem is that congress wants to pass more legislation when they won't even enforce the already existing laws.
Give citizenship to 11 million immigrants? It's more likely 20 million and that will be no more than a band-aid for a bleeding artery.

Fulano, I really like your idea. It is probably the most lucid and intelligent answer I've heard so far. But, as long as we have this present group of idiots in Washington, I think we both know that it will never happen.

Cogito cogito ergo sum cogito

Yea typical reaction from Congress and the rest of our gov't here in the US, blah, blah, blah, filibuster, screw up any rational bill or law with ten thousand "amendments" and then go on vacation.
Lobbyist's flock to these eunuchs in droves,using the old carrot and stick ploy. "Don't mess with our cheap labor situation, here take some money! If you screw this up we'll support your opponent in the next election!"
Let's face it we got no leadership whatsoever, we're adrift like a boat without a paddle. And every election the voting public is splintered and confused with "one issue emotional gimmicks" like abortion, gun control, gays, religious issues, and now immigration.
They got us by the short hairs!

I have always wondered why the U.S. has never helped Mexico to overcome its economical situation. I know they do not have to. However, it seems to me that every decade the U.S. spends millions or billions rebuilding other countries, like Germany, Japan or Iraq, and it has never given any substantial help to Mexico. All monies loaned to Mexico have been under regular loan agreements. I mean, money that Mexico has to pay back with interest. And those are resources that are only given to Mexico when it's about to collapse (like in 1995) and not to make Mexico a more developed country. Looked what the E.U. has done for Spain. Mexico's situation should be blamed on Mexicans, but maybe someone on the board has an answer to my question above.

BTW I also talked to an immigrant in the U.S. and he was telling me that it is more difficult to cross (illegally) the southern Mexican border than crossing the southern U.S. border. I found that odd.

Even though both governments, the U.S. and Mexico, are getting something they want out of the current immigration status, people on both sides of the border are not happy at all. Americans do not want their jobs to leave overseas or be underpaid, and Mexicans do not want to leave Mexico to make a living.

Jabch, I think it is obvious why the US Military / Industrial complex doesn't want to help Mexico, so that it can be assured of a steady flow of cheap, non represented, workers.
Also the ruling classes of Mexico don't want the lower and middle class of Mexicano to elevate themselves, then they would represent a threat to the weak, ugly, wealthy Gachupin's that have ruled Mexico since colonial times.
If one looks at the current situation without emotional caca clouding the issues, and the failure by the US Congress and the Mexican rulers to even attempt a remedial course of action then it should be obvious to all that the attitude is "The Public be Damned", US and Mexican public

jabch,

Don't you ever wonder why the people of Mexico haven't had enough of the corruption? I've never heard of a movement to reform the Mexican government.

Who would the U.S. give the economic aid (bailout) to? Now that I think of it, wasn't there an attempt in the last ten years, possibly Bush Sr., to bail out the Mexican peso?

Fulano, I don't think the military cares about cheap labor, as they don't run Wendy's or Burger King restaurants. And as far as the"industrial complex" you mentioned, our "industrial complex" has moved to China, and those factory jobs that did not go to China, went to....guess where?....MEXICO.

I do agree with you that the Mex government could care less about helping their own.

I liked one of Jon Stewart's comments on the Daily Show last week:
He said the reason Congress adjourned early for the Easter recess was because many of the Members had to take their (illegal) Nannies to the Bus Station

Doesn't it seem odd that by some strange circumstance we in the US end up with 12 million or more undocumented immigrants in a relatively short period of time, and we are told that the reason is "they are looking for a better life" and "thier gov't" is corrupt? During the terms of at least four US "Presidents" all this has occured without any real interference, very wierd?

Is it just coincidence that starting in the 20th century and continuing to this day the forces of economics (yea military and industrial) by force or other means have obliterated and destroyed the old agrarian farm system of self sufficient "barter system economics"
Hey, you throw these farmers off their land which pays no or very little tax to govt's, displace millions of people, on this land you grow crops for export (you know "profit"!), and the former landowners can become desparate, low wage, workers in agriculture and industrial situations, and with no rights as illegals they become very docile indeed. "Brilliant"!
Anyone wonder why at the present Mexico imports corn from the US?

Hello Everyone: I think the people of Mexico are tired of corruption. Actually, it is likely that the next president of Mexico will be Lopez-Obrador. A politician with socialist ideas (just the opposite of Fox), very appealing to the poor, and likely to follow the same path as the presidents of Venezuela, Bolivia or Brazil.

When you hold the Mexican people accountable for their situation, you have to keep in mind this is a country mostly composed by poor people. People with limited access to health care, education and housing, but governed by a very, very wealthy, powerful, U.S.-educated, higher class.

About the 1995 loan to Mexico, I do not consider that substantial help. That is exactly my point. Those are not resources that help build a better Mexico, they only help to preserve the status quo.

Also, I don't think Mexico comes second to China as to U.S. investment. The U.S. companies have no loyalty or preference for Mexico or any other country. They go where ever is cheaper and more profitable to invest. Mexico's minimum wage of about 5 dollars per day (most companies pay about 2 to 3 times that minimum wage to unskilled workers) is way too high when compared to salaries in China, India, most of Asia, part of eastern Europe, and central-America. U.S. companies in Mexico, like the 800 Wal-Mart we have in Mexico, aren't exactly doing charity there.

Going back to the idea of a north-America type of Union with free movement of labor force, what party in the U.S. is likely to be opposed to something like that? Why?

Gee Fulano, where have you been? No interference on the illegal aliens? California tried to pass a proposition to stop it, vigilantes have appeared at the border, congress has argued and blustered about throwing them out, or making them pay tax, or something. The truth is, no one wants to take a stand against them "cause it ain't politically correct" and the Joan Baez "kumbaya" crowd will come after you!

Fulano,

As it sometimes happens, I just don't follow you. I kind of like your previous idea of making anyone who wants to work in our country pay $2500 up front. Money that would otherwise go to "cayotes", and would go toward background checks, etc. I'm with you so far.

But as far as a coordinated effort in the 1900's to destroy the agrarian, agricultural lifestyle, I don't see that at all. Industrialization, brought about by the significant strides in technology in a free society such as ours, destroyed the more traditional way of life. This was the inevitable result of freedom, not some planned economy. If your looking for the results of a planned economy, look no further than, that's right, Mexico.

If you want to improve the economy of Mexico, you have to industrialize it. And to do that...well, I promised I wouldn't be too political.

Go ahead and be political Gazpacho!

jabch asks,
"Going back to the idea of a north-America type of Union with free movement of labor force, what party in the U.S. is likely to be opposed to something like that? Why? "

jabch, unfortunately probably all the party's in power in all three countries of a proposed "North American Commonwealth" would be opposed.
Until we as people can rid ourselves of our current rulers (from all political parties!)and return to a true democracy with strong leadership and a desire to unite the people and be motivated by a sense of service and respect for our countries laws and the constitution then I'm afraid nothing will change except the continuing and constant diet of BS, divisiveness, and quest for more power and wealth, fed to us all by our present so called leadership
Hate to sound like a nihilist but the BS from our "representitives" comes down so heavy you need to wear a hard hat for protection.

Just like Mushrooms,kept in the dark and fed do-do.

LOL

It's fascinating and sad to realize how short-lived the memories of Americans are. I can certainly understand the fears regarding Mexican immigration by people in states such as Georgia, or Nebraska, or some other state that has no history of connection with Mexico. But California and much of the southwest used to be part of Mexico, and not all that long ago. The California consititution was written in Spanish and English, as someone on this board pointed out. We have 10th generation Los Angelinos whose first language is Spanish. So, I wish the southwestern United States would embrace our Spanish/Mexican culture. I would like to see all our schools require bilingualism, with half the day in Spanish , half in English, much the way education in Galicia is conducted--Both Galego and Castellano are required, with students turning out fluent in both, and adding English and often French to their educational breadth. I am sorry that my own children were not forced to study Spanish language and Mexican/Spanish culture and history in depth starting from kindergarten, continuing through high school. If they were, then the "problems" created by so many immigrant children from Mexico and Latin America might turn into assets. Our newly arrived children would be more likely to succeed in school and become educated professionals rather than stuck at MacDonalds or picking strawberries. And our American-born children would be better educated as well. Why are we so afraid of multi-culturalism in the US? Ask the Californians who voted to outlaw bilingual education. We should be educating ourselves to become more completely bilingual, not less.

Fulano, I hope you are communicating your immigration plan to you representatives in Congress. Start a campaign.

aidance,

This time I agree with you. Learning two languages is an asset, not something to be threatened by. However, I guess it's the additional cost of paying for bilingual teachers that bothers people, and I can't blame them there.

Do bilingual teachers get paid more????? The last job that required I be bilingual and have a college degree paid $6.00/hr. I loved it but had to move on. What a shame. BTW....Aidance good points on the history of California

Immigration is not the real issue, the real issue is the "Illegal immigration." By entering our country illegaly the way they do, they are already showing that they have no respect for our laws. I beg to differ with some of the points that have been posted here, the illegals are not just taking "low end" undesirable jobs. The other problem that I have is, they seem to feel that we the American taxpayer must subsidize their life. An example is when they go to the hospital, they run up a $60,000 bill and have no intention of ever paying a dime on it. Yet let one of us go into Mexico and do the same thing,they would prevent us from leaving until payment arrangements had been made. If we were to go to Mexico and enroll our kids in school there, would they make special arrangements for bi-lingual education for American English speaking children? We know the answer to that one already. Get in a car wreck in Mexico sometime without car insurance and see how it is handled, let one of them get in wreck here without insurance, "to bad so sad."

This mentality of the Mexican government that they can export their economic problems north of the border is starting to get old. Some of the problems that we have here on the south border are the security problems. In the common pathways there have been found Muslim prayer mats, abbandon clothes with Arabic writing on the clothes tags, you know that was not put there as a decoy by a Mexican.

Someone suggested that they open the borders and have one free commonwealth area. That has been tried in the crudest form, known as NAFTA. Anyone familiar with NAFTA is aware that it has been a complete disaster. Canada is still dumping at below cost lumber, the US still has not cleaned up it's enviornment, and Mexico is still one of the poorest,most corrupt, countries on the face of the earth.

I just returned from two weeks in Spain and England, and as anyone in Europe will tell you, if there is a problem in the world, it is GWB's fault. Of course the immigration protest were on the tv, and the Europeans did not have to be asked what they thought of the situation, GWB had caused it all, and they had no problem with telling you so either.

According to my wife, who watches Univision all the time: Newscasts on that Channel tell of thousands of Illegals who participated in last week's demonstrations being summarily dismissed by their Employers. They were Fired for taking part in an illegal 'Work Action' with no right of appeal and no Union to help them.

Under pending legislation, their Employers could be fined a significant amount for employing illegals. That may not be the law yet, but it's telling us something.

your frustration is understandable DD, but what is the rational and human answer? Round up millions of people? many who have been here and established themselves as taxpayers,homeowners, have children and grandchildren who are citizens etc; etc; etc;.
I think we have a extraordinary opportunity at the present to, instead of bickering and ranting about the Mexicans, to change the world politic by forming a North American Commonwealth (no Nafta is not a good example, it only benefits already powerful business interests) we are already in a decline as a world power due to pressure from Asian indusrial superiority, Mideast oil wars, and the selling out of the US public by our own economic and political so called "leaders".
If we could combine forces with the Canadians and Mexicans then we would have an instant supply of hard working ambitious labor, we would have a tremendous supply of oil and natural gas(US,Canada, Mexico reserves would put us in charge), huge advantage with raw materials like lumber,minerals,etc; and since our industrial powers can't compete with the rest of world due to high labor cost's, the intelligent option would be to adopt Canada's universal medical coverage for all citizens. Then maybe our people wouldn't be increasingly living like some third world population.
If we citizens in the US don't elect strong smart leaders who see the big picture and the future instead of the selfish, divisive, unpatriotic, power hungry idiots we have been suffering with recently then we will be relegated to a third rate old oligarchy that's been passed by.

Desert, I think that is such an exaggeration. I think you know better about Mexico, but write this kind of thing out of frustration or anger.

That is the thing about Mexico, it is not the worst or the best at anything worth mentioning. But I don't know why most Americans see Mexico just like you, like the poorest country on earth. The intersting thing is that the U.S. is not even listed among top 10 least corrupt countries. It is ranked 17!

World's 50 Poorest Countries, 2004
UN list of least developed countries:

Afghanistan, Angola, Bangladesh, Benin, Bhutan, Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cambodia, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chad, Comoros, Democratic Republic of Congo, Djibouti, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Haiti, Kiribati, Laos, Lesotho, Liberia, Madagascar, Malawi, Maldives, Mali, Mauritania, Mozambique, Myanmar, Nepal, Niger, Rwanda, Samoa, São Tomé and Príncipe, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Solomon Islands, Somalia, Sudan, East Timor, Togo, Tuvalu, Uganda, Tanzania, Vanuatu, Yemen, Zambia.

Most Corrupt Countries in the World: (Mexico is ranked above the following countries - meaning less corrupt than 90 other countries).

Burkina Faso, Croatia, Egypt, Lesotho, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Laos, China, Morocco, Senegal, Sri Lanka, Suriname, Lebanon, Rwanda, Dominican Republic, Mongolia, Romania, Armenia, Benin, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Gabon, India, Iran, Mali, Moldova, Tanzania, Algeria, Argentina, Madagascar, Malawi, Mozambique, Serbia and Montenegro, Gambia, Macedonia, Swaziland, Yemen, Belarus, Eritrea, Honduras, Kazakhstan, Nicaragua, Palestine, Ukraine, Vietnam, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, Bolivia, Ecuador, Guatemala, Guyana, Libya, Nepal, Philippines, Uganda, Albania, Niger, Russia, Sierra Leone, Burundi, Cambodia, Congo, Republic of Georgia, Kyrgyzstan, Papua New Guinea, Venezuela, Azerbaijan, Cameroon, Ethiopia, Indonesia, Iraq, Liberia, Uzbekistan, Congo, Democratic Republic of Kenya, Pakistan, Paraguay, Somalia, Sudan, Tajikistan, Angola, Côte d'Ivoire, Equatorial Guinea, Nigeria, Haiti, Myanmar, Turkmenistan, Bangladesh, Chad.

jabch,

I wonder where Mexico would rank, as far as poor countries, if it wasn't for the immigrants, legal and illegal, that send back money to prop up their economy?

Here's a thought. If the U.S. wants to curb immigration, not just from Mexico (which it seems people want to concentrate on), but also from Africa, South America, Eastern Europe and Asia, it should also look into the political policies and trade agreements it holds that favor our country and cause strife in others. If you want to have a serious debate about immigration, make sure you look past the Mexico issue to the political conflicts and economic problems around the world that strangely enough, always involve the United States in some shape or form (Liberia, Cuba, Iraq, Afghanistan come to mind).

I'm not saying let all the illegals in or give a general amnesty. But to blame it all on other governments is naive and shortsighted. Being the richest nation in the world comes with a price. It is unfortunate that while we shop Trader Joe's and buy our ethnic foods most likely manufactured and packaged in American-owned factories in China by women under the age of 18 who live in barracks making less than $1 an hour, we have nothing to say about corruption.

Silvita, with all due respect, I think that you should check your facts about China. China is still a communist dictatorship, and as such, foreign companies have limited rights of ownership and in many cases, such as GE, must surrender certain patents and technologies to the Chinese government after an agreed period of time. We (the US) have no control over the policies of the Chinese and in case you have not been following the story, they are nearly are equal in military strength. They artificially outcompete us by manipulating their currency and making production costs dirt cheap and there is not a damn thing we can do about it. They have stolen much of our technology and intellectual material, especially in machine tool technology.

And by the way, we are NOT the richest country in the world, and I bet that the nations that truly are the richest (eg. Bahrain, Saudi Arabia), do not buy your argument that "it comes with a price". Our nation is going broke due to the emergence of totally dependent permanent underclass of government subsidized poor and immigrants, who have as many children as possible. We simply cannot afford to go on like this. Remember, what really killed the former Soviet Union was that there were more consumers, than producers.

Jabch: You give lists of poor and corrupt countries, it is interesting to note that the US does not have droves of people coming across our south border from these countries. The problem of illegal immigration is truly coming from Mexico. Recently GWB had a meeting with your President Fox, and Fox told him in no uncertain terms that he was not going to tell his people to stop coming here. It would appear that Sr. Fox's solution to your economic wows is to export the problem to the US.

My problem with immigration is not "immigration," it is with "illegal immigration." It tells me that the person has not respect for our laws. Then comes the mentality that "well we left our country, but you the American citizen, must adapt to our culture." "You the American taxpayer, must now pay for my hospital stay, and change your schools so that my children can have a bilingual education at your expense." "Yes I know we would not do the same thing for you if you were in Mexico, but America is the 'land of the free' and we expect you to give it all to us for free." I just do not see that attitude coming from the other countries that you listed as being more corrupt and poorer than Mexico.

My feeling is that the Mexican govt. would not be so unresponsive to stopping the problem of exporting the problem to the US if they were forced to repay the American taxpayer for the expense of your fellow Mexicans. This includes repaying the hospital expense, paying for the cost of educating the children, repaying when one is involved in a car accident and not insured. The list could go on and on, of the problems that are being created by your fellow coutrymen. You can list all the poor and corrupt countries you want to. I don't see those on your lists creating the problems in the US, that Mexico is creating.

You can say that say that my feelings are from frustration, I say that it is from COLD RAW HARD FACTS.

Hey DD you mention this so called showdown between Presidents Fox and GWB, and how the bad guy Fox refused to help alleviate the immigration situation.
My question to you and other pissed off "Americans" is "what the hell has GWB or any of the last 4 or 5 US leaders (including congress) ever done to alleviate the problem?"
Do you really think that the immigration of 11 or 12 million undocumented people in such a relatively short period of time was an accident or that the US has had no power or control in the matter?
And to Dave B, do you actually think that the huge international monopoly capitalist corporations are going to invest billions in China without any guarantees or that they actually "roll the dice" when setting up shop and having "billions" of new consumers purchasing there products? Think Real!

Hopefully one day the US voting public will shake off the bs coming from on high and stop being concerned so much with relatively unimportant,divisive issues like "guns,gays,abortions, etc; and demand some real leadership and true democracy instead of our current crop of "hair sprayed, embalmed looking,$2,500 suit wearing, platitude speaking, bible thumping, sin huevos, clowns we are given to vote for every election day.
Probably going to really piss some off, but our old nemisis "Karl Marx" said many years ago,
"democracy is just a system that every once in a while allows the slaves to elect thier own masters!"
Are we going to prove this old commie right!

Yep Fulano, I am thinking real, what the Chinese
have not stolen from us, we will give up the intellectual property rights to through negotiations with them.

Just look at what General Electric has to give up to operate there...their new jet engine technology, and there is nothing that the "evil global monopolist, warmongering, capitalist, imperialist pigs" can do about it!

You need to read something newer than "Das Kapital"

Fulano: As usuall you are 100% correct, it is in fact all the fault of the American Govt, and the American public/taxpayer. How could I have been so stupid as to think that other countries should be responsible for their own people. My God how can you ever forgive this Greedy American Capitalist pig, for wanting his fellow man to be responsible for his own destiny. :p :p

Give me your tired, your weak, your weiry, and anyone else looking for a free ride in life, and the American taxpayer will give them a free home, free medical care, free food stamps, free education. After they have had the American free ride they can go home and tell the rest of the family how bad things are in America. I always think of the Belamy Brothers song where they say "at 6 oclock we turn on the tv and watch the news where the third world countries heap on more abuse."

By God Fulano you are right, it is all the American public's fault. Whatever came over me?

Gazpacho, DD, and all:

Mexico's living standards were actually higher 30 or 50 years ago. The middle class was broader and the income disparity was not as bad as today. Most people had a place where to live and decent food. But I think corruption has taken Mexico to its current state and more and more people are leaving. So yes, now the immigrants contribute a lot to the Mexican economy, but the massive migration from Mexico to the U.S. is a "recent" phenomenon. Before, Mexico was dependent on its oil and a closed economy were local producers and consumers were the players of the game. Now with NAFTA American companies own most of the big companies, most (medium-size) local companies went broke long ago, and the locals are only consumers and not producers. Which is not necessarily bad, but somehow for Mexico hasn't been the best.

Immigrants from other countries listed on the rankings shown on my previous message are not in the U.S., not because they don't want to but because they can't. They are too far from the U.S. But ask Europeans if they are receiving illegal immigration from those countries. Yes, probably in higher proportions than the U.S. Only Spain in the last few years has received 4 million immigrants from Africa and south-America.

The other issue is why you want to blame Fox for the immigration situation. I think promoting illegal immigration is unethical and wrong. It is sad, but in this world our presidents do many unethical things for the benefit of our countries’ economy. We complain about those unethical things only when they affect us or when they don't work out as expected, but not when they benefit us.

As to China, American companies cannot say "Oh! it is not us, it is the Chinese that do not allow for a change." Guess what? American companies own 60% of all companies sending products to the U.S. It is a paradox that the U.S. complains, and now tries to contain China, when the U.S. is the very same country that has fueled China's growth. I wish the U.S. had invested in Mexico a third of what they invested in China. But in Mexico we don’t have construction workers that work only for food and a place where to sleep and no money. I think China’s labor system, in many areas, amounts to slavery.

At the end of the day, I believe the U.S. has the power to stop illegal immigration on its own. Forget about Amnesty. How about just a database that employers can access to verify SSN’s? How about temporary working visas for unskilled working immigrants? What about requiring temporary workers to pay for their visas? What about requiring temporary workers to buy private health insurance to get their visa? What about given driver's license to immigrants with working visas and requiring proof of insurance prior to issuing the license? You think immigrants will not like these changes? They would love changes like these!!!!! All of these is doable in the U.S., and you don’t need a major immigration reform. The U.S. already has the platform (like consulates, labor department, a huge SS administration, local departments of revenue, etc., etc.) to implement these changes. However, I have the feeling others, maybe in corporate world, won't like a simple executive order implementing these little changes. What do you think?

jabch,

Lots of good points. And I agree, the U.S. government could very easily stop illegal immigration. And I wish it would.
I enjoy my brothers and sisters here from Mexico, and I try practicing my Spanish with them at every opportunity. But it isn't fair for people trying to enter this country legally.

Jabch: First let me say that I am glad to see that you are willing to admitt that corruption is a problem.

You commented that some of us in the US are blaming Fox for the illegal immigration problem. When confronted with this problem at a recent summit he stated point blank he would not tell his people not to violate our borders. This is something that he said to GWB infront of others, and restated it to the press.

I just returned from two weeks in Spain and England. Illegal immigration is a problem in Europe. One can read the Eurpean newspapers for more infomation. It is causing a near collapse of the British National Health System.

Your last paragraph has some good ideas, I will only address a few.
First, the President does not have the authority to use Executive Order for somethings you advocate. All Presidents wish they had broader authority for Executive Order, that authority is limited for a real good reason.
Second, you state the US can stop illegal immigration. You and the rest of the international community would not like our methods if we were to handle this situation on our own. It is a problem that must be dealt with on both sides of the border.
Third, Visas for unskilled labor is something that being advocated by none other than GWB himself. He calls it "Guest Worker Visa."
Forth, Private health insurance, good idea but would require a change in current insurance law.
Fifth, "Forget about amnesty" trust me I am one of many that has forgotten the idea of amnesty.

Jabch, I am glad to see you are finally willing to accept that your fellow countrymen are creating a strain on the US economy and social system. I can assure you that in the Southwest, it is a strain near the breaking point.

It is going to take a lot of good people on both sides of the border to correct this problem. Good people start by admitting there is a problem, you have proven Jabch, that you are a good person.

jabch, good points you made about the shrinking middle class in Mexico, and the same is occuring in the US although not as rapidly (or is it?)
Ask almost any Norte Americano about the rising cost of not only housing, gas, but of health care, and the crappy care one get's at most HMO's.
I now live in the state of New Mexico and when I drive back to LA Ca where I have family still, I marvel at the huge number of trains loaded with containers, almost all from China,and other Asian countries. Interstate 10 and 40 have train tracks along side the freeways and many times there is a virtual "traffic jam" of trains loaded with cargo coming from LA Harbor, taking Chinese made products to all the "Walmarts", Costco's and Sam's Clubs etc;.
A real site to see is the "Port of Los Angeles", (now one of the top three in the world) and dozens of cargo container ships waiting out at sea to unload in the busy port. And what do you think these millions of cargo containers take back to China and the rest of Asia?
You guessed it, Steel, Scrap Metal,Cement,Lumber,Petrolium Products, and all the natural wealth from our country that the Multi-National Corps can make a profit on.

And we US citizens (the former industrial power) just sit around and complain about the awful "Mexicans" and pretend that 12 million of them just snuck in here recently without any complicity on the part of Mexico or the US gov't.
They just suddenly appeared!
By the way there is supposed to be a May 1st general strike by all Mexicano's and supporters.
It's being refered to as "A Day Without Mexicans"!
Peace.

Fulano: Contrary to what you think the word "Profit" is not a vulgar four letter word.

As per you comment about the lumber being shipped out to the Far East, most of that is what is known as "Old Growth" or "Virgin timber" meaning that it is from a logging area that has never been logged before. The average American cannot afford a house built from "old growth." I know that the Desert Dweller cannot. In our fathers and grandfathers day what is being sold by most lumber yards now would be sold for fire wood or shipping pallet material. Now it is used to build houses. I share in you resentment of that natural resourse being prices out of reach of the average American. For a good example of what I am talking about, go to a true lumber yard and ask for some 8x12s ten feet long and specify "Old growth." If you talk to someone younger than 35 he probably will not know what you are talking about. Nobody at HomeDepot or Lowes will know anything about it, you are going to have to go someplace where the contractors go. When you finally get the price you are going to be shocked. Then you are going to know why the walls at your friend Joe Sixpack's new house are warpped and wobbly looking.

You made mention of the scrap material being shipped out. Here is food for thought, the US makes up less than 20% of the world's population, we generate over half of the world's waste product. What does that tell you? Think about it.

DD, that's a very interesting environmental point. I heard an American environmental law professor talk about that. He basically said, probably with China and India in mind, that from an environmental point of view, our planet can't take another consumer-oriented society as big as the U.S.

All right guys, let's see what happens with the immigration issue.

When does congress' recess end? Any word as to whether they will address the issue again?

Jabch: For some very interesting reading on that subject two books come to mind, both written by the same author, John Hoffman. They are the "The Art and Science of Dumpsted Diving" and "The Art and Science of Dumpster Diving, the Advanced Course" what he deals with are the things that Americans throw away that are still servicable. the internet has came into being since the first book was written and he deals with in the second book how some people are making a good living by dumpster diving for the merchandise and selling it on E Bay.

Have to correct you on this one DD. Yes, people in the UK are very worried about immigration. In fact the latest concern is Eastern Europeans (particularly Poles) who have taken advantage of Poland joining the EU to seek work in the UK (they're good workers, but the numbers of economically inactive Brits including yours truly is growing daily). You may also have heard that the NHS has its problems which is correct. However the NHS is kept going by immigrants - around 50% of new nurses and 30% of new doctors were born outside of the UK. Of course one could ask why there is this demand for doctors and nurses. Isn't the UK training enough? Well it seems that after training a lot leave the NHS to seek higher paid jobs abroad eg in Saudi Arabia and the USA! Every silver lining has a cloud....

Filbert,How nice that you have a national health care system even with problems! We in the USA have an out of control "profit at all costs" Health Maintainence System for those that can afford it.
And even the economic middle class here has almost been tapped out, "Middle aged couple will pay $800 to $1,200 per month" and God forbid one has diabetes or some other chronic illness, then your in real trouble. Women having children used to spend 2 - 4 days in the hospital, now the HMO's kick their behinds out in 1 day.
Gas now at almost $3.00 a gallon in New Mexico where most people have to drive 20 to 50 miles one way to the job!
Let's blame the illegal immigrants!

Oh boy Fulano,

Sometimes I forget how bad things really are over here. Problem is, where else to go?

I don't want no state run health system. Heck, they can't run anything else right, why do you think the government could run a health care system?

I can imagine Filbert's face when you tell him gas is only $3 a gallon here. Just back from Canada. It's almost $4 there. I'd be willing to bet it's at least $5 in the U.K.

Fulano: Actually there is a valid point to be made with the illegals on the point of medical cost. When they run up a big hospital bill, with not intention of paying, that hospital does not just "write off" the loss. A portion is added into mine and your bill and paid by our insurance company. I read a report about two years ago by a health insurance industry agency, it plainly brought out that as much as 25% of current premium is cover uninsured people, it further broke down what percentage is being added for each class of uninsured.IE working poor, unemployed, illegals etc. So you are correct that they are creating additional medical insurance and medical cost for all of us. You did not want to hear that did you?

Somewhere approaching 7 !! Well, that's my rough estimate - we use litres now, so my calculation may be a little out.

Well now Filbert,

There you go. I'll bet you're marching in the streets to overthrow the incumbent party because the price of gas is so high. That's the mentality of some over here. And since gas cost more than twice the cost of ours, your country must be twice as bad as ours. I bet Bush and his oil cronies control the price of oil in the U.K. too.
Just being sarcastic, I bet the U.K. is a great place to live.

Gazpacho et al; there's one giant flaw with your anology between the US and Europe,and the price of gas. First of all Europe doesn't produce or have the petrolium reserves or production that we in the US have. We are one of the world's top producers and users of oil and gas. Secondly because of our powerful oil and gas politics our history since the 20th century has practically evolved from the oil and gas industry.

We in the US, over the years have been manipulated and transformed into a gas dependent society. Oil as gold, as king maker, as world industrial power, as world class consumers, dependent on oil and gas. Did Europe ever have a powerful auto industry like we had?(now practically bankrupt!).Did Europe ever have a powerful oil and gas industry? Did Europe like we in the US ever develop the highway and freeway systems like the US?
Did Europe ever develop whole cities and communities around the automobile like our surburban commuter towns built around and along the freeways and highways, built with our tax $$, and with a total dependence on the Automobile and cheap gas?
The answer is no! But our whole culture revolves around the car and gas except in certain metropolitan areas where they had the foresight to build "rapid transit" commuter systems.
In Europe due to their insistence on "industrial centers in metropolitan areas with cheap mass transit systems people don't need to use their cars as much.
We in the US unfortunately have been sold a bill of goods that commuting 50 to 100 miles a day to work, depending on cheap gas, living in some track home suburban area (with gated, guarded, patrolled, green grass, by and large white only MacMansions), paying outrageous state mandated auto insurance, driving monster SUV gas hogs,
is a wonderful way of life!
So now the chickens come home to roost, and shock of all shocks the same white,christian, conservative republicans, who we elected to protect our sacred "American way of life" are ripping us off and telling us to "stick it where the sun don't shine"
So if people like Gazpacho want to try and put the old right wing apologist spin on this situation, well keep on spinning and we'll all act civil and swallow hard!
Blame it on the illegal Mexicans!

Fulano: It would probably surprise you to know that the interstate highway system was patterned after the German Autobahns. To your credit it was a right wing Republican President that put the interstates in motion in 1956. I have to agree with you that Europe is light years ahead of the US on mass transit. I just came home from two weeks in London and Barcelona. Good subway and bus system in both cities.

Now I have one question for you, just what does any of this have to do with illegal immigration?

DD writes: The latter is at least in part due to the U.S. Marshall Plan that helped rebuild Western Europe's infrastructure in the Post-WWII years. Spain was not included!

As for the former: The National Defense Highway Act of 1948 (enacted by a predominantly Democratic legislature) was the principal impetus for construction of the Interstate Highway System.

It would be my guess that many illegals worked on construction of Interstate Highways, especially in the southwest U.S.

My point is that we in the US cannot feel less angry due to the fact that in Europe gas is 6, 7, or 10 bucks a gallon. Our life style and culture was developed around gasoline and auto's. In my own home town of Los Angeles I witnessed the destruction of one of the world's great and efficient mass transit systems to be replaced by freeways, car culture, surburbia nirvana, etc;

Since this was the "masterplan" for us in the US, then we should hold responsible those who are now slowly roasting us over the fire with high gas prices, ridiculous "quotas" on fuel efficient japanese autos, our auto giants continuing to produce gas hogs, oil company's selling our resources to foreign country's like China for massive, obscene, world record profits,"Exxon/Mobil CEO's getting "retirement" packages like $400,000,000.
Today on the news I see our President in Calif. visiting and touting energy efficient hydrogen powered test vehicles and other research facility's "developing" energy efficient items.
It made me want to puke!
If we had any real leadership in the US they would supponea these Oil Co. Ceo's and haul their ass's before Congress and demand and accounting. And if changes weren't made immediately, would start proceedings to "nationalize" the oil industry for the national good!

I made the comment about blaming it on the "Illegal Mexicans" in an indignant but facetious manner because I can see it coming now in the next elections.
The US voting public will again be bs'd and convinced that all our problems are due to Illegal Immigration and this will become the new "one issue debate fodder" to keep us voters confused and divided.
The real important issues like the Oil Co ripoffs, War in Iraq, the selling out of the US, etc; will become smaller in importance as we all yell and scream and call each other racial epithets and traitors.
Mexicans as "scapegoats" and one issue candidates will have a field day spinning the truth.

Also DD, FYI President Eisenhower was absolutely not a "right wing Republican President". Ike today would probably be castigated as a Liberal! It was Ike that warned in his last Presidential speech "The greatest threat to the American people is the Military/Industrial Complex" and man was he ever right!
Pres Eisenhower was also the President that appointed former Calif Gov. Earl Warren as "Chief Justice of the Supreme Court" also a Republican but who was hated by the right wing politico's as a "left wing Liberal" and who these nuts tried to have impeached for years! Truly great men in US history and I wish we had them around today instead of the greedy sin huevos lackeys we are stuck with now.

the US needs inmmigrants for work not done by Americans, and they let them in easily...now those immigrants like it and are getting their dogs and all into the US;and americans are finding it hard to take them in anymore.

sounds familiar? yes its the same in Europe on a smaller scale.
I think the idea of Fulano is a good one if starts now for new entries; as for the old established illegals its too late they have been in the US for too many years;,done business pay their taxes;raise a family of Americans born kids...now its time to clean the slate and start anew with better policies.
any sending back deal is discriminatory and inhumane;they are not really to blame they just wanted a better life;dont we all?

one technicality on eddie
Spain was not included in the Marshall Plan for Europe;correct

but americans dealt with Franco rights for air and sea bases in Spain in exchange for aid;aid aid $$$$$ which amount to the same but no shown as such due to Franco's political views which the americans had just fought over !!!!!

My dear friend, fulano, writes:
"Truly great men in US history and I wish we had them around today instead of the greedy sin huevos lackeys we are stuck with now."

Where have all the good men and women gone? Most, if not all, are out of politics. And the women, are no better, sadly.

Here's one, Jane Jacobs, who wrote !


Pedmar, the oil crisis is having little effect in France, right? After all, most of your cars have been fried, non?