Eurabia's Civil War: The Opening Shots

Seine-Saint-Denis and dozens of Paris suburbs lit up by a fortnight of rioting "youths" of "North African Origin", looting shops, torching cars and shooting at firefighters and police, who concede thay cannot control the situation...

Arhus, Denmark has seen several neighborhoods blockaded by local "immigrant" "youths" who declare "this is our town, we decide what goes down here". Looting and torching of cars and property were allegedly planned weeks ago...

Birmingham, England has seen fighting between "youths" of "South Asian Origin" and local blacks for days...

And meanwhile, this also from Britain:

"6 to 13 percent of British Muslims -- that is, between 98,000 and 208,000 people -- are sympathetic toward Islamic terrorists and their efforts. Theoretical sympathy expressed in a survey is not the same thing as active support or a wish to emulate the ‘martyrs’ in person, of course. But it is nevertheless a sufficient proportion and absolute number of sympathizers to make suspicion and hostility toward Muslims by the rest of society not entirely irrational, though such suspicion and hostility could easily increase support for extremism. This is the tightrope that the British state and population will now have to walk for the foreseeable future."

And so it begins. Keep your powder dry, my European freinds. Oh, except that its against the law for most of you to have firearms for your own protection, what with living in a socialist utopia and all. So much more refined than us American neanderthal gun-worshippers.

Any predictions on what Spanish town will be the first to go up, and the likelyhood of Spanish authorities to control the situation?

And a Happy Ramadan to all...

P.S. Might I suggest a view to www.jihadwatch.org for more information for the curious?

Of course there's never been riots in Chicago or LA or Washington.

No, there never been riots in Chicago, LA or Washington where the rioters are sympathetic with Arab extremists who want to destroy the country they are rioting in. Would you help those you want to kill you, your children and family, your way of life?

The Arabs in the US, most of them anyway, will not shed their customs and tradition from the home countries but will make attempt to become integrated into American Society. They want to be added to the great melting pot of US that one of the great thing about my country. Even after 9/11, everyday I see plenty of Arabs working in New York City and no one is going to bother them!

This is quite different from the Arabs in France. From what I have read, the French Arabs want to be separate from the rest of the French society and have made no attempts to be part of it. Now they pay the price for being part of French society and the worst elements of France Arab society have benefit from it.

France should use any means necessary to take back these towns from these extremists!

Bill

It's simplistic in the extreme to see this as a "French Intifada". Much has to do with class and marginalisation. Not religion nor even immigration. The disaffected have taken out their anger in this way in all societies at all times through history. Few of those participating will have had a political agenda, ie destroyting the country they live in, or even known where to vent their rage. After all, they're burning their own cars not those of the rich. Yes, radical Islam is a worry in France as is the radical right-wing agenda of those such as that of Le Pen. But fortunately, in this case I think it's an old fashioned case of mob anger against the authorities rather than a directed, concerted effort by radical Islam to make a point.

Bill,

Do you think they might send in the French army to quell the riots?

No. The Paris police is what the French government should send in. Your ever taken the Paris subway? I have and the police are mean looking armed with machine guns.

Bill

Just an old fashion case of mob anger at the authorities, eh? Thank goodness for that. Just the disaffected here, folks, move along, nothing to see here. Heaven forbid they destroy the "country they live in."

Except they don't live in the country they seek to destroy. They live in an alternative society that France has no control over. They are not 'assimilated', they have no desire to 'assimilate' into the western world. Many of the "rioting" "youths" are Algerian. Here is an Algerian opinion about France:

PARIS, Sept 27 (AFP) - An Algerian Islamist organisation, the Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat (GSPC), has issued a call for action against France which it describes as “enemy number one”, intelligence officials said Tuesday.

“The only way to teach France to behave is jihad and the Islamic martyr,” the group’s leader Abu Mossab Abdelwadoud, also own as Abdelmalek Dourkdal, was quoted as saying in an Internet message earlier this month.

“France is our enemy number one, the enemy of our religion, the enemy of our community,” he was quoted as saying.

France was mentioned 15 times in the text, and the Algerian government was also targeted, the officials said.



Today a woman in a wheelchair was doused with petrol and set afire by these poor disaffected "youths". Really, how much disaffection can these poor misunderstood "youths" be feeling? This isn't an Anglo-American Cowboy Capitalist country we're talking about here. This is the enlightened socialist utopia of France, one of the most generous welfare states in the world. It doesn't matter.

This is not 'disaffection'. The lands and culture of Europe are being overrun, but that's OK because they aggressors have 'grievences' and are 'disaffected'. Of course, these grievences are completely justified, and western nations just need to apologize a little more profusely and cough up more 'reparations' to the 'disaffected' before they stop their murderous rioting rampages.

WAKE UP! Stand up and defend yourselves.

France has an extremely difficult problem.
This is not just a bunch of teenagers having a case of hormonal imbalance. It might have begun as a case of disaffected teens, but it is more than that now. It now includes those with other irons in that fire. those that want a separate France without the secularism that the French abrogate.

What can they do to appease this population? They sure as heck can't blame it on the U.S.; Chirac and Villepin saw to that when they led the opposition against the U.S. on Iraq, hoping that this act would appease their moslem constituency.

Of course the situation is grave but even French police believe that there is no central coordinator behind the violence. Rioters are communicating with each other, yes, tanks to mobile phones but this doesn't mean there's a jihadist conspiracy. As I said before, it's more likely the explosion of pent-up rage from an unintegrated underclass. That's not to say that this disaffection could not be exploited by those who wish to see it as a chance to radicalise the conflict - there has been an attack on a synagogue. But the riots should be dealt with as a grave social problem and not as a clash of cultures and intifada - or we're playing into the hands of the tiny minority of radical Islamic elements.
These should be identified if they exist and this problrm should be addressed in a different way to that of the rioting. It's probably unhelpful to deal with a complex isssue by labelling all those involved as jihadistas.
As to the allegation that France didn't support the Iraq war in an effort to appease it's Muslim population, well I find that hard to swallow. There were plenty of other reasons to oppose the US-led invasion. Remember, Brent Scowcroft, national security adviser to President George H.W. Bush and in favour of the first Gulf War, opposed the war for lots of pragnmatic reasons and he surely wasn't worried about a Muslim constituency.
No, in this case the French have themselves to blame for decades of bad social policy on immigration and social disadvantage.I don't think they'll be pointing the finger at the US, somehow.

Hmm.
I would've found this an important discussion if I wouldn't have to resent the tone of the first messages: instead of discussing a problem, some people seem to be in some perverted way happy that France is experiencing these problems. And "they can't blame the US".. huh? Why would they?
Mr Ghost was also pointing out a couple of times that France is a "developed welfare state" and "socialist" like it would be the reason for the problems. I'm pretty sure what's been the problem is that there has ben a too fast, sudden inflow of immigrants without the needed measures having been taken to integrate these into the society. No income transfers prevent maginalization if not combined with appropriate policies.
This IS a problem there and I'm sure they are doing everything in their power to tackle it. How do you think this could best be done?

Pia,

While Atahualpa's Avenging Ghost is a little vitriolic, he makes many good points.

I don't think he really believes there is a chance of Europe being dominated by the Arab culture, but he is as disgusted, as I am, at Europe's shamelessly prostrating itself before the face of Arab aggression. Some of us in the U.S. are getting a little impatient by Europe’s lack of conviction, or backbone about Arab aggression. Or anything else for that matter. We know your help would resolve this issue in a more timely manner, but your appeasement only makes the matter of terrorism worse.

And I guess that what he means as France blaming the U.S., it that he suspects, as I do, that sooner or later the media will portray these riots as being caused by the U.S.’s activities in Iraq. France, while no great asset, is a member of the free world and therefore, according to the Arab jihadist world, an ally of the U.S. and thus their sworn enemy.

As far as his opining over socialism, I suppose that he, as I, consider this the root of Europe’s inability in dealing with problems such as terrorism, or the flood of immigrants. As Finland will soom find out, if it hasn’t already, it’s easy to implement a cradle to grave policy, if you can reasonably predict the availability of resources for your people over the near future. If something unpredictable occurs though, such as the influx of too many immigrants, natural disasters, wars, etc. reality will convince you that a more aggressive capitalistic society is the answer.

Gazpacho, I don't see how what you wrote about welfare states and capitalism is in any way connected to the issue discussed here: at least I didn't understand that the topic was on how capitalism would be a better answer when there is a sudden "influx of immigrants". I think the problem is how to integrate these immigrants into society and that doesn't happen automatically. In any system.

It is true that there is increased tensions between the western world and some radical fundamentalist Muslim groups and it doesn't get better with wars going on that are seemingly between those two groups, but I still very much doubt that anyone would blame the US for problems in France.

I, personally, don't believe the answer is getting guns and putting up prison camps where suspected terrorists or are tortured. Especially in times like this I think it's more important than ever not to make exceptions to what we believe is right. In the end I think that's what the terrorists want: for us to start acting against our own believes and ideals. And start fighting not only against them, but also against each other.

Capitalism creates economic growth and generates wealth. New wealth creates new investment capital that fuels new business and creates new jobs for new job seekers. Capital investment allows for the creation of economic opportunity for new immigrants and their offspring. New immigrants with new economic opportunities quickly develop a stake in the promotion and stable growth of the new society they live in. Economic freedom promotes political participation at all levels. THAT is how a society integrates newcomers from a wide variety of foriegn lands with vastly different social and religious customs. That is how we do it in the USA. And Europe sneers at this as 'cowboy capitalism'.

And actually I do believe that Europe is in danger of being dominated by Arab culture. Every generation there are fewer and fewer Europeans and more and more ethnic muslims from Arabia, Turkey and North Africa. Do the math. And I'm not the only one who thinks that way. Just ask the "rioting youths" of Paris, and now a half-dozen other French cities.

Last time I checked, France was still a capitalist country. That aside, I also fail to see what your discourse has to do with the issue at hand. The US, for all its merits - and there are many - is also a society with deep rifts, along ethnic and class lines. Both France and the US, and any western society, for that matter, have capitalist systems, which, while creating wealth also leave others behind. In your scheme of things they might deserve to have been left behind having not taken the opportunities capitalism presented them. But they're still left behind. Now back to the issue - what then should a society do with this class? It's clear France as a society, a capitalist society I hasten to remind you, has had a confused social policy, creating areas which are ethnically uniform and where there's chronic unemployment. It's a volitile mix.
But there's also a volitile mix on the part of some observers. They're throwing the threat of an Arab takeover, confused ideas of etnicity (can ethnic Muslims exist?) and what constitutes Arab culture, what constitutes being a European (Arabs can be European, many Turks are, in fact, European) into pot and allowing it to simmer.

Thanks Atahualpa,

I certainly can't add to your first paragraph.

As to those who ask what does my post add to the thread, I was merely expanded upon the original posters ideas, so that's what.

Oh yeah, more negatives about capitalism. It leaves people behind, not like good ol' socialism. That let's people starve to death. Much kinder. People it's not the job of government to make everyone equal. If it was, why do the immigrants that flood into Europe feel disaffected. Obviously, it just don't work. But keep trying. I'm sure someone will sucker us tax payers here in the U.S. to foot the bill somehow.

And Pia,

For goodness sakes, we are doing what is right. We are trying to create a world where people are free to seek thier own way of life, free from the violence of terrorism. Sure,Finland hasn't been attacked yet so you can afford to ride a high horse, but unless someone draws a line, you better start reading your Koran and learning Arabic. Meanwhile, the U.S. gets to do the dirty work and isolate psychopaths that murder the innocent. Yeah, so much for leaving people behind. Thanks a lot.

Here we go again. I was just saying that what we believe in, which should be democracy and human rights, should never be compromised in the fight for securing them. This would be acting against our own believes and proving ourselves wrong. As for the rest, I completely agree with barry.

Gazpacho, excellent posts.

Pia, you alluded to my mentioning not blaming the U.S., this is in reference to a thread a few years ago.

This article may best explains my remark:

What? You know what will happen, the French people the one on the left wing political spectrum will riot in the streets.

Maybe the left in France will turn their edict that you can on work 35 hours to during a work. Maybe they should cut back on it and make 16 hours a person can work and give a job to those Arabs youths rioting in the streets. A job at Disneyland dressed as Goofy.

Sorry folks I do not feel sorry for minute to the French Government.

Bill

Anyone opposed to letting the French "army" fight on the side of the radical Islamist? Think about it. This could all be over soon.

The riots seem very similar to those that occurred in Britain in the 80s, particularly since the riots have spread to different cities (copycat riots we called them in the UK). End of the day it's criminal behaviour. Take away all the young males between 15 and 25 and this wouldn't happen!! I suspect there are too many young males in France with limited opportunity and too much time on their hands. It may be that a majority of the rioters have an Algerian or Muslim background (those in the UK did not) but is, I feel incidental.

Filbert,

I remember those riots during the 80s, particularly those in Brixton. But my question is how were they similar? Were their grievances any different from those in Paris and Denmark? I don't recall anyone in Brixton turning handicapped women into charcoal briquettes.
www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13457760,00.html

Cogito cogito ergo sum cogito

I still maintain that these riots are more than they seem. The rioters are well organized and have structured communication, and the riots are widespread all over France including the Marseilles. Someone or some networked groups are engineering this.

Their aim is more to intimidate the French that the French government is too weak to deal with the ascendancy of moslem control. These young men are literally in control of their territory.

The French government, in their secular version of the world, forget that others have belief systems that are more fervent than theirs. They have been dealing with the moslem community by providing a welfare lifestyle for those able to work is absurd.

Thank you for the link Booklady - I would have appreciated a slightly more unbiased article instead of a straight up opinion of an American editor, though. I don't mean to offend anyone, but if that's what you read every day in your local news paper and consider them facts, I'm less and less surprised by your attitudes towards everything outside your borders.

Listen to filbert.

Hi there Pinguino. There's been some interesting quotes on the BBC website bbc by some of the youth involved in the rioting. I list one example..

To me it is very similar to the UK riots in the 80s when many felt they would never have a worthwhile job. A common complaint came from black youth who felt they were treated badly (I can confirm that I knew bosses at that time who refused to employ Blacks and Asians).
End of the day there's no excuse however for this violent behaviour; there should have been a stronger response from the French police at the start.

By the way, just in case people are still under the impression that this is inspired by religious fervour.

Oh dear, I fear we may have a spot of rioting on the message board if we continue

If anyone believes that the Islamic culture isn't being overrun by extremists, this might be a real eye opener. What we're seeing in Europe is just the beginning, because these people refuse to assimilate themselves into the society of nations. They intend instituting what they consider "their ways" to the people, and any other course of action is unacceptable.

Like some people have said... when it comes to extremist Muslim culture, there are only those who follow their rules, and everyone is an Infidel, who deserves to die.

My comment is not an indictment of Islamics, but it is an indictment against the leaders who would subvert their culture, and the nations that have cowed to their demands in the past. What we're seeing here is the results of past appeasement. They aren't happy yet, and until you let them run your nations the way they want, expect more of the same.

Now, if you think that the average Muslim is going to back your government in support against these extremists, you're so far off base that you haven't got a clue as to where the future is headed. The best they will do is "stay out of it," and give you lip service as to how they are against what's happening, but none of them will turn the trouble makers in to the law.

Their religious culture comes before anything else, and believing otherwise would be suicidal.

Wolf

Sunday night I watched French news broadcast on Public TV. It is like BBC news broadcast but this from France and there are English subtitles on the bottom, for non French speaking people, like me.

What I learned is the rioters, many of them are organized. The have setup ambushed to trap the Police and attach them. There part of the news broadcast that show the police were called to a housing project and then someone thrown a bathtub at the police off a twenty story building. The rioters are using Molotov cocktails and have factories to create them. There was a segment that shown an abandon police station where the police discover 50 Molotov cocktails. The rioters have burned down three kindergartens schools, I wonder why? The news cast said the rioters have burned over 1,500 cars. Also local communities are started there own patrols to watch their own neighborhood because of incidents the rioters coming into other neighborhood that are not their own and setting those communities aflame.

There were also interviews with the members of the French Government. It came across like they want law and order but do not want to use aggressive police tactics, because it might inflame the situation and they hope it will burn itself out.

If this is the case how much of “Is Paris Burning?” will the French government tolerate before the rioters burn themselves out? Or what could be worst is that they escalate the riots using more dangerous tactics. It is strange what Hitler fail to do to Paris in WWII the rioters have done to some of Paris’s outer districts.

My personal view we should watch the tactics behind the rioters, someone is organizing them. Look at the tactics, start burning other neighborhood and property, causing resentments in those burned communities and a backlash against the French Arabs. This backlash will be more fertile ground to recruit Arab Extremists. The French intelligence services better take out or down these masterminds behind the Arab rioters, or they will have bombing like in Madrid and London.

Bill

Strange posts comming from the US concerning the unrest and anarchy? in France. It almost seems that the US posters are all giddy and excited, ecstatic that France is finally suffering for allowing North Africans and (oh my god!) Arabs into the country over the past decades.(hey when your a colonial imperialist power for hundreds of years sometimes the chickens come home to roost, we in the US know this very well). But it is odd how these disturbances have been a magnet for the critics of a seemingly more humanistic treatment of citizens by the European's than we in the US. ANd all kinds of conspiracy's are being concocted by many in the US. "A new infitada begins!", "Socialist uprising!", "Arab plot to take over Europe!" Even a reprimand to the Europeans concerning thier lack of proper gun ownership! Yea that would really help!

I've heard all this crap before having grown up in LA Ca.through both the "Watts and post Rodney King "uprisings", stuff like "it's an organized commie conspiracy", The "black and brown minorities have more savage animal genetics and go off during the full moon!", "We (white people) are on top, there on the bottom!", "it's a war of the have's against the have not's"!,etc; etc;etc;.
Could it just possibly be in France an old fashioned situation of an Economic system (Capitalist) that has a large underclass of ethnic minorities marginalized and living in de facto segregation that has erupted as is bound to happen if not remedied?

Since this so call underclass have bomb making factories, are ambushing police, going into other neighborhoods to burn buildings and cars and have just killed a man for attempting to put out a fire, there is more to these riots than the liberal point of view that rioters are victims of the government.

Try telling that to the family of the man just killed. These murders are victims of the government economic policies.

I guess you do not want to joined the ranks of people that believe in non violence protests!

Bill

Pia, while I would gladly pay attention to our friend filbert on other topics, I think he is wrong in his evaluation of this situation. I truly wish he were right! Why? Because it concerns the safety not only of the French people but of all of us including the citizens of the U.S.

What changed: New York, September 11; Madrid March, 11; Bli; Malasya, London Subway bombings; the murder of Theo Van Gogh; and countless other examples around the world.

Perhaps this article will help you see my point of view better. I will abridge it because it is too long, but you can go to the source and check it out!

The Council on Foreign Relations, a non-partisan resource for information and analysis, had this prophetic article by Robert S. Leiken in the July/August 2005 Foreign Affairs :
http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=8218

Keep in mind that this article was written before July 2005!

In retrospect, one can say h ow right they were!

This is very scary, particularly the fact that this article was written before the French situation or the London Bombings. So perhaps I have my reasons for being skeptical that this is just an "immigration problem." This is more than that!

p.d.

Barry, nonsense, we are people of reason!

Booklady,

No doubt about it. The hard line Muslims know that they can get away with just about anything because nobody is prepared to deal with them harshly. For some reason people say its just "civil disobedience," when in fact its the beginning of a revolution that pits Islam against the Infidels of the world.

The more damage they cause, and the more successful these early insurrections are, the more we'll see them, and the worse they'll get, because they are bringing converts into the fold constantly.

I don't think Europeans, or Americans for that matter, really realize the scope of what this movement is. Since most of us don't react as religious zealots, its hard to believe others will. Yet, that's exactly what we're seeing Jihad is a holy war, not a way of asking for respect. It will continue, and their movement will grow stronger, unless its crushed.

Wolf

Wolf,
As usually you are right on the button. I truly wish this was merely an immigration problem. But it is more than that.

The behavior is not like a normal riot where everything is chaotic. These youths are too well coordinated. Someone or some organization is orchestrating this effort.

What I can't understand is why Chirac took so long to respond.

Bookie

Although I understand that you are scared, terrorism and the fear of its acceleration makes us all scared, it just makes me wonder on what basis people here feel they are experts on Islamic culture, especially in Europe, to the extent that they can make statements like

"Now, if you think that the average Muslim is going to back your government in support against these extremists, you're so far off base that you haven't got a clue as to where the future is headed. The best they will do is "stay out of it," and give you lip service as to how they are against what's happening, but none of them will turn the trouble makers in to the law"

With all due respect Wolf, and I mean it, what is your expertise in the field based on? Although I think the fear of some of these young people turning to extremist movements is real (the same happens here with white, frustrated and undereducated young men - they turn to extreme rightist neo nazi movements) I'm not at all afraid of the Muslim community as a whole and I'm 100% sure that most of them would "turn the trouble makers in to the law". Why? Because these are people that I live among. Who I go take a coffee with in the university cafeteria, volunteer with at the refugee center and call when I need to talk to someone. It's just hard to be as scared as you seem to think I should be.

Here is an article written by D. Attias, the director of the department of French at the University of Oulu, a French-Moroccan Jew that has now lived here for 25 years. I quickly translated it for you and my translation probably sucks but I just thought that a view from the inside would be appropriate here.

The costly bill of French inequality

When the French mining- car- and construction industries were experiencing their worst labor shortage in a country torn apart by war, in the 50's and 60's representatives of these industries went to North African and Sub Saharan rural villages to recruit cheap, illiterate and non French speaking labor.

France got rich, but at the same time, a big marginalized poor class was formed and grew up in the slums. Next to my university there was, still in the 70's, a huge district that more resembled a Rio de Janeiro favela or an African dump site. It was hard to imagine that Champs-Elysée was just a half an hour train ride away.

The Algerian born writer, sociologist and current French Equality and Integration Secretary of State describes his childhood in the slums of Lyon in his novels. Azouz Begag, just like thousands of other young immigrants far too seldom mentioned in this context, studied hard and found his place in society.

But Begag also tells about the atmosphere of the schools and society. The raw environment made many resort to the agrarian patriarchal traditions of their country of birth. Young people that didn't grow up in families that valued education soon fell behind at school and teased young Begag, who wanted to study. In their eyes he was a traitor, who rubbed shoulders with Christian and Jewish enemies. An educated Arab was no longer an Arab.

Although the structure of the economy has gone through a big upheaval due to the technological revolution, requiring more and more education and specific knowledge, only a fraction of these French people with an immigrant background had the chance to educate themselves. We have to remember that the French education system is very inequal. For example when I studied at university, only 10% of all students came from working class families. And the figure remains the same in 2005!

The school system favors those children and young people that have gotten versatile intellectual stimuli and possibilities from their immediate surroundings. We can understand how the problems of immigrant children are even bigger, especially as their language is poor and vocabulary limited as all available research shows us.

In Finland, anyone has the possibility to study encouraged by society. In France, available financial help is nearly inexistent. Additionally, vocational education is not highly valued. The schools and universities don't appreciate cooperation with companies. Comparisons between Germany and France show that the French school system produces an enormous amount of young people who barely know how to read and write. The educational programs are badly adapted to the current needs of the labor market.

Just like in other parts of the world, but worse, the economic recession has been hard on France and hardened the attitudes of marginalized youth. News brodcasts show who are the ones that commit these ruthless acts of violence: the same young macho kids that terrorize girls, their own parents and working Muslims.

Furthermore, these people are so "Frenchized" that they have adopted the manners of direct action of different professional groups. In France reform is a swearword, and in this conservative country no progress is ever made without riots and disorder.

Everything that has happened in France during the past few days, was predictable since 1981, when the first rebellions begun in different suburbs. Both the left and the conservative governments have given only empty promises. Members of government made dozens of visit to the suburbs, surrounded by TV cameras, pretending to discuss with the youth of these suburbs. Chirac won the elections in 1995 because he held sharp speeches on the new poor classes and promised to deal with the problem.

In the near future we have to fear how the already strong far right will benefit from this situation and what will be the position of millions of hard working Muslims. But due to its tragic history, France is a country that has always survived the storms, ending up stronger than before.

I can also predict that because this little group of Muslim hooligans has made great damage, the big, silent Muslim masses will permanently and clearly step forward and dissociate themselves from those dark perceptions of Islam that there is no room for in the modern world.

Belatedly the French are bringing in curfew measures to control the rioting. Although there's only been 1 death reported so far (contrast with the 15,000 annual murder rate in Washington) I hope the situation is quickly brought under control. If some of the more pessimistic posters are correct, then an organized network of insurrectionists could kill thousands with ease. Let's hope wiser heads prevail and the situation calms. I still feel there is an economic answer to this problem in France - If you own a shop or have a profession, you don't riot. I suspect most of those rioting feel excluded from society.
fully agree with what Pia said. In the UK I live amongst people from Islamic backgrounds. Since they have jobs (pharmacists or small business owners or even just factory workers) they show no inclination of criminal intentions. Even those who are temporarily unemployed don't do this - they tend to take courses etc. It's normally a small percentage of those without hope who resort to criminality.

You are really naive if you think those without hope resort to criminal activity.

People that have everything going for them can still become a terrorist. Most of the terrorist involved in 9/11 were from the middle class in Saudi Arabia. The terrorist involved in the first attack on the World Trade Center, were working middle class Arabs living and working in America. The chemist who helped build the chemical bombs used in the attacked had a high paying job.

Where the Arab terrorist involved in the London Bombing were they from the poor and uneducated in the British underclass?

I think if were to ask your Islamic background friends what they really think of bin Laden, some of them think of him as a hero.

There is more to the riots in France than in-equality of French society. Are these rioters scum, they certainly are! No political correctness for me on this issue. Who owns the cars and property are they burning? It is their neighbors that live under conditions they do.
Now they those neighbors worst off than before.

Bill

Pia,

What do I know? Why do I consider myself an expert in this area? Well, to start with, I probably do understand it more than the average European who is burying their head in the sand, because I realized it was coming, and said it was for years. But, not because I figured this out on my own. I had help arriving at this point.

As for my "sources," I have a lot of Muslim friends, and they have stated that Europeans are fools who think they can "negotiate" with radicals when they have no intent of backing off even after appeasement. In fact they fear what's happening in Europe because its fast becoming a model as to what could happen here, and they don't want to be caught up in a situation where hardline Muslims run the show here from Mosques.

I also studied information about the subject, and what's happening within nations that the Muslims have taken control.

I didn't make it a "steady diet" of buying into this peaceful approach that Europeans seem to offer so smuggly to the world, as if they found a panacea of peace that nobody has ever found. I dealt with information from both sides of the issue so I could see it clearly, without it being distorted.

But you go right ahead and bury your head in the sand, and find ways to appease the hardliners, and someday, when they pull the same crap in Finland, don't bother to whine about it, because nobody will care. Either you're part of the solution to this problem, or you're aiding it. There is no "middle ground" where anyone can stand, because the militants will take that away from you eventually.

As for the Fatwas issued against this violence, understand its nothing more than rhetoric and has less teeth than the UN saying; "Shame on you!"

Wolf

I am not a smug European with a smug attitude towards violence. I am from Ireland where I've seen how violence is nurtured and used. I have seen how disenchanted young men are easily lured into the romantacism and heroism of violence. The current violence in France could be exploited by Islamic radicals. I'm not so innocent as to think otherwise. But as yet, the riots do not have this dimension, just as race riots which have ocurred in the UK or the US did not have a real revolutionary basis. People are angry, yes. But in the case of the UKor US where this has happened before, those raging through the streets were not articulating marxist or class-based rebellion. They were breaking things.
I, for one, do not believe that those burning cars and even people have a radical Islamic agenda. That's not to say this agenda won't insinuate itself into their actions in the future, which is the fear of our US friends on this board. But it's premature, I think, to see this as anything other than an outbreak of rage against the status quo.

Wolf,

Isn't it pitiful? I guess liberals in Europe are of the same as ilk as liberals here. If a person just declares that they have the "intention" of changing their behavior, then, abracabadra and presto , that makes them good people. Even morally superior people. A murderer with tears in his eyes is greater to them than Jesus.

But if a person tries to prevent another from repeating thier atrocious behavior, they're nothing but a criminal.

Bad white Americans. Imprison and torture terrorist. And in the face of such meaningful fatwas. Why, we Europeans are kinder and gentler. We understand these people better because of our superior knowledge of foreign affairs. Well, I ain't buying such bilge.

If there's one thing that's becoming obvious from these riots, it's that the French obviously counted on their oil for food scheme to help finance their progressive social programs. When their evilly gotten gains dried up, someone removed the cork from the champagne bottle. What a mess, no matter what the reason. Good luck with the fatwa.

I don't know how to contribute meaningful posts to this thread any longer. All I'm getting from certain quarters is a certain glee from some about what I consider a grave problem. I would be quite happy to debate the subject with someone whose opinions are different from mine, someone with a different world view. I am aware of the problems of Islamic radicalism and I lived next to Atocha and knew people on the attacked trains on March 11.
Of course I don't have all the answers and of course Europeans can't lecture the world on how to get things right (we have supplied two world wars, after all!). But I don't feel we have even room for debate when some posters see the problem as simply an us-versus-them issue, as a clash of culture and religion, as a shoot-em-up scenario.
I don't think the situation is apocalyptic and I think it can be resolved. I think it's unfortunate and tragic. But I think that when we address the underlying causes, and we must, we will be a stronger and more just society.

Wolf, I understand that you see a threat in the possibility of radical movements spreading in Europe. So do I, apparently barry, and I would guess filbert does, too.

Now what I was asking was on what grounds you can say that the AVERAGE Muslim (your exact words, my emphasis) would always, in the end, protect the extremist criminals. Would your American Muslim friends? If not, how are they different from mine?

Mr. New York's comment "I think if were to ask your Islamic background friends what they really think of bin Laden, some of them think of him as a hero" doesn't even deserve a comment. Listen to yourself. Nobody even said that terrorists always are undereducated or underclass. As I recall we were talking about the riots in France? And I'd suggest you go there and count the higher middle class people burning schools and shooting at fire fighters.

As barry said, the situation could be exploited by radicals and therefore it is serious. But you are already talking like the kids involved in the riots would be 5 seconds from flying a plane into your house.

Like barry, I don't know what to write any longer. The malicious delight I see in some of your posts really makes me unsure of who it is I should be scared of.

Pia and Barry,

It doesn't matter what the social situation is of the Muslims in your country. Or whether they're underpriviledged, undereducated, rich, poor, disaffected, radical, non-radical, etc. What matters is the measures you have to take to stop and prevent Muslim aggression. And that's what is really behind most of the posters concerning this topic.

What really irritates us is that Europe should really know by now that you can't just appease aggression and get off scott-free. If reality doesn't teach you different how about some not-so-long ago history?

I'm not happy that France is having their current problems. The vindication of seeing reality in action, hardly gives me any comfort.
It's like seeing someone abusing substances and not able to provide for himself or his family anymore. You get so frustrated waiting for him to realize that he can't go on doing the things that he does. The sad truth of it is, about half of this country agrees with the way Europe is handling terrorism.

Who knows? Maybe the next time we invite the world to help solve a problem they won't be in such a hurry to jump on us because we have a conservative president. Or they won't be making their own backroom deals with the U.N. to undermine our efforts. We will surely be able to solve problems quicker and more economically when this happens.

I don't think any of us have said "all Muslims are bad." What we've tried to state is that the radical movement within their religion is the movement that always wins. They never lose because they have absolutely no concern over what they do to others to get their way, and they are willing to die for what they believe.

One glance at the world of fundamentalist Muslim doctrine in countries tells you they eventually take control of governments by force if necessary, and then become an agent for spreading this belief throughout the world.

You don't believe it? You might listen to the new Iranian President. He sent you a message as to what the fundamentalists of Islam think of you and us. He may have been shooting his mouth off, but remember this... nobody in the Muslim world did more than say; "You shouldn't say that! Its not nice!" They have no intention of tangling with the hardliners.

Even countries we consider moderate in the Muslim world face serious problems. Jordan and Saudi Arabia walk a narrow line of peace with the fundamentalists. They don't dare crack down on them except for outward actions, because they know it will cause more problems, and the fundamentalists have absolutely no rules by which they play. These countries even fear their own people, because even though they don't support the fundamentalists directly, if the governments of these nations should side with the US or Europe, without exhausting as much energy as possible to keep the neutral Muslims neutral, they know they will have civil war themselves.

It was mentioned about the terrorism in Ireland. That was a good example of what people can do for a sustained period of time, even though they aren't zealots like fundamentalist Muslims. I didn't see a rash of suicide bombings happening in Belfast so I can only conclude that the religious resolve there was far less than that of the fundamentalists.

I also didn't see Mosques and schools created for the sole purpose of creating terrorists either, like I see happening in the Muslim world. In fact, the hardliners boast that they have over 1,000 schools that have devoted themselves solely to creating the new warriors of Jihad! Of course that was quickly swept under the rug after it was stated, following 9-11.

I say, believe what you want, but this is just the beginning of hell for Europe. The rank and file bomber and demonstrator in France may be thinking somewhat of this all from an economical standpoint, but rest assured, behind the scenes is a serious minded group of fundamentalists who are calling it the beginning of Jihad, and there isn't anything you can do unless you oppose it with force.

One big question. When rioters are shooting at police and fire personnel, and throwing molotov cocktails at them made in a terrorist factory, is that civil disobedience? It sounds like attempted murder to me, not a cozy little walk in the park with signs saying; "Hell no, we won't go!" Like we saw here in the States back in the 60s.

Wolf

Out of all the countries in the world, France, it's politicians and intellectuals class, lectures and bad mouths the America, it's society, it's government and the way is behaves in the world. This is not because of the Iraq war. This kind of bad mouth attitude from France towards America has been going on since the end of WWII.

Now it turns out, the French have problems too. I remember how some left wing French liberals would lectures the US how they do not discriminate against blacks. It only turns out they do discriminate only it is not blacks.

So what we have now is this. There is this country name France who constantly criticisms the US for over half a century. Now France made the mistake of letting the world see their skeletons in their closet and they are not so prefect. Some in France should have shut their mouths about its complaints about the US and work to fix their own problems.

Do not think I feel this way towards the French people. I love going to France and meeting them. I find generally them warm and friendly. I strongly dislike the French government, its relations with the US which they have made it worst. A country where the politicians feel they have to bad mouth my country to win elections. Germany does it too and look what happen in the last election.

So what you are seeing in America is not glee, but a concern about France, because we feel the French government and the politicians are going the situation worst.

Bill

Pia,

I take umbrage with your comment about me having "malicious delight" in my posts.

On the contrary, I'm concerned for family and friends who live in Europe. They're the ones who are in harms way because of this cavalier attitude we're seeing from a lot of Europeans surrounding the issue.

So, please, do not try to assess my reasonings for my beliefs by shrugging me off as if I was "anti-European" because you're way off base.

Wolf

Pia

I'm really surprised that some people seem to get furious whenever they find you do not think the way they do.

Sit down, relax, have a Bud. (That'll improve your economy, too )

Bill :o

Wolf, I was not referring to you and I apologize if it sounded like I was.

Bill, you know I've been much less furious because of your opinions than the other way around (and sticking much more to criticizing your opinions than you as a person than the other way around). I just draw a line somewhere before someone comes and tells me or someone else that (at least some of) their friends are definitely pro Osama just because they are Muslims.
And as for the Bud, last time I checked it was American and thus it would improve YOUR economy.

Pia

And from you

I did not know you spoke for Barry and I did not say "definitely". But it is possible because he is a hero in some in some Muslims circles.

Also do not forget that fact he is not dead yet makes him a hero because of the Great Satin has not killed him and made sure he get his 50 *****es in HELL!

Bill

Right now the question is not whether the rioters in France are just a bunch of youngsters seeking jobs and opportunities,as some believe, nor, whether they are rioting for their religious beliefs. The question at the end of the day is how long will it take groups like Al Qaeda's and such organizations to take advantage of this situation and turn it into a European-wide jihad?

The very same fear that this unrest may be more than a localized situation in France, as there have been some copy-cat events in Belgium and Germany, countries which have a more inclusive policy towards their immigrant population, has encouraged the European Central Bank to devalue the Euro, as reported by Bloomberg.com web page
Other news articles have stated that the ECB might have been a tad too hasty.

Just a quick fact check. An earlier post quoted tha annual "murder" rate for Washington D.C. as 15,000. The total of homicides for last year in D.C. was 198. The highest in the last 20 years was 482. So far this year, 198. It is obviously too many, but a far cry from 15,000. There is enough blame to go around without such hyperbole.

I have a ticket to Paris on December 8th.

From today's AP

Bombing Subways? The potential to kill incident people has just increased. Reading this brought back memories of Madrid and London bombings. Lets hope the French justice system does the right thing, hunt down and lockup these terrorist for life!

And this from
New York Time Cartoon Section

Bill

Oh man Bill,

If that doesn't hit the nail on the head! And I've been accused of being politically incorrect.

Well, they screwed up in Jordan. It seems suicide bombers have killed nearly 60 people in a hotel.

So much for walking the line of peace. The terrorists must have decided that there wasn't enough money coming in from Jordanian money men, and too many "foreigners" on their soil... except for the extreme Muslim element whose numbers grow daily, and will eventually overthrow their government... and all immigrants I might add.

Does that strike a note with anyone? It does to me.

Wolf

Here's an interesting link to information about the bombings in Jordan. If you read it carefully, it pretty well says that al Qaeda plans on attacking anyone who doesn't side with them specifically.

As horrible as this is, I see one ray of hope from it. The demonstrations against al Qaeda, and the fact that some stricter Muslims have come out and denounced this senseless attack. It looks like a lot of people in the Muslim world may be getting tired of these attacks and the people behind them.

Now lets see what happens over the next couple of months in Jordan, and other nations who aren't aligned with al Qaeda.

http://home.peoplepc.com/psp/newsstory.a...51110-520897000

Wolf

What nations are aligned? The last one was Afghanistan and we all know what happen, we invaded.

Bill

Bill,

Any nation that isn't actively ferreting out terrorists, and is doing nothing about those who are operating within their borders, is obviously not aligned with stomping out terrorism.

I'm just going to point out one as an example. Syria. All we've gotten is lip service from them, and its been the stepping off point into Iraq for terrorists.

They know its happening, and are doing damned little about it.

That, to me, is acceptance of terrorism, and therefore leaves them aligned with terrorists.

But, if you think I'm going to do a lengthy research project to answer your; "What countries?" question, ain't gonna happen. You should be able to figure them out all on your own.

Wolf