Mexico - Economy

According to the CIA Book for year 2004:

Out of 232 countries Mexico is the 14th largest economy of the world measured by gross domestic product. The U.S. is ranked 1st and Spain is ranked 15th. (In 3 years Mexico dropped from 9 to 15).

However, measured by Gross Domestic Product Per Capita Mexico is ranked No. 85, Luxemburg No. 1, the U.S. No. 2, and Spain No. 39. (What does this GPD per capita mean? Is it like the real purchase power or what?)

According to Aneki.com:

By number of billionaires Mexico is ranked 9 out of 11 countries, interestingly enough listed ahead of United Kingdom, Russia, and Saudi Arabia (in that order). The U.S. is ranked No. 1; Spain is not ranked; and Mexico is the only country listed from Latin-America.

Can anyone explain the meaning of these numbers? What they tell you about Mexico?

odd Madridman.com posting...but..here it goes..

GDP is a measurement of all the goods and services a country produces in a year. It is calculated by adding the value contributed by each sector (agriculture, manufacturing, service) of the economy in the form of profits, compensation to employees, and depreciation (consumption of capital).

Mexico is ranked slightly higher than Spain because it produces more on a yearly basis than Spain; probably because of PEMEX. PEMEX is the oil company in Mexico; Mexico is one of the world's largest producers of oil.

However, Spain is more efficient at producing its capital, which is why its GDP per capita (per person) is higher. Spain needs fewer people to produce the money it makes (basically). That could be for several reasons: perhaps Spain produces goods of higher value with less labor.

Luxembourg is ranked number one because it is populated by rich people and special banks but there are relatively few people there. So, mathematically, it seems as if Luxembourg is a financial powerhouse.

When you take GDP and divide by the number of people, you get an idea of who wealthy the population is. Low per capita GDP means there is a small middle class and larger lower class...so Mercedes Benz won't do as well in Mexico as in Spain.

Jabsh and TJguy:Then take all that data and look at the crime rate and the fact that Mexico in one the biggest exporters of illegal immgigrants and you start to see a picture of a very corrupt country develope. They have so much wealth that since President Fox has been in office he has been on the phone constantly to his buddy GWB wanting the US to get a guest worker program going. The economy of Mexico is so great that every year a few thousand Mexicans die in the desert southwest of the US, all wanting the same thing, A JOB.

Mexico has a tremendous amount of natural resources, and personal wealth. It also has a very corrupt government, military, and police force. When doing business with a Mexican businessman, take the advice of a man of experience, hang onto your wallet. Until such time as those problems are corrected, you the American taxpayer will have to keep paying for those black body bags so the Border Patrol will have something to put the bodies in when they find them in the deserts.

After having lived on the southwest border for the last 35 years my advice is to take the information you got from the CIA fact book, and a few dollars and go to Star Bucks for a cup of coffee. When you get you coffee, and go to sit down and drink it, use the CIA information to wipe down the table, then properly dispose of the paper, and then you will have gotten some good use out of the CIA fact book.

Thank you so much TJGuy.

So a country like Mexico needs either increase its GDP, in the case of Mexico a lot, or decrease its population and maintain the same GDP. Right?

I did some numbers:

Not to bore you with all these numbers, but I find interesting that the key to development might be GDP per capita.

For example, Mexico with its present GDP of $1,006,000,000,000 and population of 106,202,903 needs to increase its GDP by $10,744,000,000,000!!! to match U.S.’ GDP of $11,750,000,000,000; or increase its GDP by $3,252,736,410,300 ("easier") to match U.S. GDP per capita of $40,100; or in a more extreme scenario Mexico needs to maintain the size of its economy and reduce its present population from 106,202,903 to only 25 million to match U.S.’ GDP per capita.

So for Mexico to become a “developed” country at American standards Mexico needs to come up with $3,252,736,410,300 or drastically reduce it population.

If Mexico keeps growing steady ay its GDP at the same present 4.10% rate, it will take 36 years to go from 1,006,000,000,000 to 4,258,736,410,300 and match today’s U.S. GDP per capita. In 36 years I am sure the U.S. will also grow so it will take even longer to match them.

Also at the present migration rate of .45% (thinking that for every person that is born one dies) it will take 170 years to come down to 25 million people.

So this only shows me that unless something big happens and Mexico gets a lot of money from some where for the next 36 years Mexico will be a developing country. Ok. I was just trying to fix my country. But think it might take more money than I expected

I am sorry but I keep thinking about this issue. I was about to get kind of communist and pass a law limiting wealth to certain extent in Mexico, but then I realize that even then, if we distribute the amount of money that Mexico has among the poor it is not enough to substantially raise the GDP per capita. Also wealthy people and foreign investment will leave. Probably we should go American and give everyone a decent house and car on credit to pay in the next 30 years, and "put a patch" on the problem, even if it's just temporarily.

Jabch: That seems to be the method that Sr. Fox wants to use to deal with the problem, "just export the problem to the US." "Don't deal with it here in Mexico." "Send the bill to the US taxpayers for our problems."

TJ explains quite nicely a very important fact!
So it would seem that if one were looking for a rich spouse, Luxembourg would be the most likely place to find a wealthy partner!

yep..sure is one way for Mr. Fox to get himself out of a pickle...send a portion of his labor force to an area that allows them to make more cash (its a huge upside that they send millions of dollars back to Mexico - - give's them a large dollar reserve in the banks - which is unrelated to GDP and GNP) than if they worked in Mexico. When the illegal immigrants send the $$$ back to Mexico, it allows the Mexicans to buy more things in Mexican stores, thereby increasing GDP & GNP.

It also decreases the load on Mexico's social services; which is what angers most Americans. Most Americans don't care that they come here to work (hard to find an American that will work in a tomato field for 10 hours a day) - it drives us nuts that we spend more money on social programs than we normally would because the illegal immigrants aren't 100% integrated into our economic system.

a note to Booklady...i'm really really really really disgustingly rich - i'm ugly and fat with poor personal hygiene..but if your lookin' for a sugar daddy..........

DD: Don't take me wrong. I don't favor shipping one country's problems to another country to get them solved. I'm just trying to analyze the situation of Mexico, which includes the issue of emigration.

I understand that you are seeing this from your country’s point of view and can be frustrating, but that doesn't mean that I am not free to analyze the different scenarios under which Mexico can grow economically.

Also, I dislike the way you address some issues. Words like “you the American taxpayer will have to keep paying for those black body bags so the Border Patrol will have something to put the bodies in when they find them in the deserts” have a different meaning to me. For you the issue is money from our taxes into black body bags. For me you are talking about the death bodies of my country mates. How do you think I feel when you talk like that? Do you care about other’s feelings or you have such an arrogant attitude and imperialistic mindset that you can’t even see how bad you sound expressing yourself like that. What do you want? Pile those death bodies and dump them on the other side of the border? If your country is taking care of them in this way, even if expensive, it is the appropriate way to do it. Less is not expected from a country like the U.S.

Another thing, you may know a lot about poor Mexicans in the U.S., but you barely now anything about Mexico itself. So think twice before giving an opinion on Mexico.

as a defense to Mexican businessmen...i've done business IN Mexico for ten years and haven't ever had a problem. I've been stuck by more U.S. business' for $$$ than by Mexican business'. Its more a matter of knowing who you are dealing with before jumping in. The frustrating thing that DD faced, I'm sure, is that he had no recourse.

BUT, in defense of DD. Once you get stuck by a Mexican in Mexico, you are truly stuck. Very little chance of getting recourse through the courts and its not like you can report them to Dunn and Bradsreet.

TJGuy, I agree. However, I've met Mexican businessmen trying to sue their American counterparts because they are avoiding performing on a contract. In the U.S. there is a more developed judicial system, but people and businesses here in the U.S. also are quick to file bankruptcy, all of this under a legal frame, but at the end here you can also get stuck.

If someone tries to set up a business or a new life in Mexico, the U.S., or even Spain, the issue is how well prepared they are for that kind of challenge. Every country is different and thinking that things will work the same way that in the U.S., is silly. You have to adapt. Some don't have the skills and resources to do it, and others do.

For example, for foreign corporations doing business in the U.S. is not easy or cheap. This is one of the countries where more regulation exists for businesses and where "legal liability" can be a tremendous burden. However, risk takers have to suck it up (or pay the outrageous cost of insurance) in exchange for doing business in the U.S. But you have to know what you are doing.

no arguement here! Gotta know where your gonna land before you leap (how is it said in Spanish, "antes de saltar, mirar..." or something like that.

Jabch: "Less is not expected from a county like the US." That is a good one Jabch. Now for the big questions. What can we "expect" from Mexico? Can we "expect" military help to get rid of scum like Saddam? Obviously not. When can we "expect" Mexico to reimburse the American taxpayer for the cost of health care when your people get sick here and can't pay the bill? When can we "expect" Mexico to reimburse the US for the cost of recovering those bodies in the desert? When can we "expect" Mexico to repay the land owners around the border for the damage done by your "country mates" when they cross illegaly into our country and destroy property on the way. When can we "expect" Mexico to realize that their problems are not our problems. When can we "expect" your people to clean up the trash left in the desert. Crossing from Arizona into Sornora, Mexico it becomes clear right away that your "country mates" need clean up the trash rather that dump it in the desert in their own country. Why would I "expect" them to suddenly develope a degree of self pride just because they have crossed the border?

The problems of Mexico will have to be solved in Mexico City not Washington D.C. or Phoenix, Arizona. When Mexico gets it through their head that the problems are their problems to solve, get rid of the corrupt governemnt officals, and starts to realize that when a "friend" asks for help you give it to them. That is when Mexico will become an economic power house. Mexicans die in the desert because Fox and the rest of Mexico "expect" the US to take care of your problems. That one word "expect" in your last post, sums up the entire attitude I see from Mexico.

Desert dweller, I'm probably not the only one on the board to find your comments in extremely poor taste. Please try to make your point without being so offensive. We might take you more seriously then. Now that I'm here, I'll pose you just one question. When is the US taxpayer, whom you seem so worried about, going to reimburse Mexico for all the land the US grabbed?

Thank you, Barry ....

The recent recovery in GDP growth was not enough to snuff out the economic blow dealt to Mexicans by the 1994-95 peso crash, which plunged the country into its deepest recession since the 1930s. The purchasing power of average wages remains 20 per cent below pre-1994 levels despite the impressive recovery in the economy since about 1997. Mexico's gross domestic product expanded since joining Canada and the United States in the North American Free Trade agreement in 1994.The peso crisis basically left Mexico with just the rich and the poor, and no one in the middle.

The National Statistics Institute (INEGI) found that the 20 per cent of Mexico's families with the highest incomes earned 54 per cent of the nation's total wealth. INEGI found that Mexico's poorest 20 per cent of the population made it through five years of education. The richest 10 per cent went to school for at least 12.4 years.

As an American, I support the legalization of the emigration of Mexican workers into the United States. Most Mexican workers accept strenuous manual labor jobs, jobs most American will not tolerate.

I travel to Mexico often and never lost my wallet.

Barry:It is real easy to divert attention from the issue at hand by bringing up something that happened 160 years ago. Nice shot, but I will not take the bait. The bottom line is if Mexico wants to be a friend and allie that is great,but friendship is unconditional, not a matter of convenience. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

We have immigration now. It is done by going through a gate, not cutting down the fence anywhere one pleases.

DD: Like a lot of Americans you think Mexicans don't pay taxes. Most Mexicans in the U.S. pay taxes, if they do it under a false name or SSN that's another story. I want you to go find a job and not be asked for a social security number. It is almost impossible. So most Mexican people are withheld tax when they get paid. On the contrary, these people are never able to claim a tax return as you do, which is the price for working illegally here. The minority of Mexicans working for cash in the U.S., do so thanks to corrupt American employers that give them jobs without reporting this to tax authorities. However, the number of American employers that will risk getting in trouble by this kind of practice is minimal. Remember one thing is not to work legal and another thing is not being withheld taxes for your work. You see, not everything is as you say. You don’t know it all DD, not even about your own country.

Your problem is that you are biased and hateful with the rest of the world. You always have something nasty to say about other governments and people. What are you doing in a board with such an international connotation like this? Trying to spread your hate for anything that is not American or goes in the favor of Americans? YOU and your social skills SUCK! When you show up you are a disgrace for any thread on the board.

As far as I remember, this thread was about the comparative GDPs of countries, with a focus on Mexico. There was even an intelligent analysis and debate developing. The debate was diverted when one poster brought in body bags, US taxpayers and, bafflingly, Saddam Hussein.

Yeah Jabch, you are so right I am a terrible rotten person. If you don't beleive it ask my Ex-wife. Love or hate me, I make dudes like you and Barry think.

My social skills suck, your the first one to ever point that out.

William Randolph Herste use to say "I don't care what you say about me, just talk about me."

DD go see a therapist. I am serious; it can help you a lot. When your therapist asks why you visit him don't forget to mention "I'm a Phantom that brings up Saddam, my ex-wife and William R. Herste to every conversation because I like to improve people's thinking." That will make his diagnosis much easier.

I have to agree with Barry and others. While I have found little to agree with DD on and usually avoid reading any of his posts because of that, comments referring to unhappiness about having to contribute to paying for body bags is an all time low.

I think by it's very nature this board brings together intelligent people who understand that his opinions are NOT American's opinion, or even MOST American's opinions, they are ONLY his opinions.

DD I take offense when you make comments such as you have here and loop me in to them. I defend your right to your opinion, but I would ask you to stop presenting THE American opinion, you do not speak for me.

All of you people so horrified and offended by Desert Dwellers arguments,

Why don't you offer more rebuttals and less personal attacks. Then I could take you more seriously.

Land grab from Mexico. That's a good one. I'm sure the citizens of Texas, California and the rest would just love to be part of Mexico. Let's take a vote.

Gazpacho: Seemingly you are the only one that picked up on what was meant by the comment about the body bags. What I meant was, we would not have to buy the body bags if Mexico would attack it's own economic problems. Since Mexico will not attack it's own problems, in many cases we the American taxpayers are left to pick up the tab.

One thing that not one person from the left, that is telling me what a low life I'am, has thought to point out, is that Mexico is the US's largest trading partner. The busiest international port in the world is between Chula Vista, California and Tijuana, Mexico.

Two of my business partners and I went down to Mexico to see about the possiblity of opening a cabinet shop. We would have employed about thirty people. You would not believe the red tape they tried to put us through. Then it became obvious that what they really wanted was payola. Granted we have not located a place to put the shop, but have met every offical in town, and then the chief of police introduced us to the head of the union. This gentleman would of course find us only the best craftsman, for a fee of course. We found out later that the chief and the union boss are brother-in-laws

Mexico has a vast amount of natural resources, they have a good and able work force. Those two assets are being frittered away by a corrupt government. We would not need to bring the body bags to the desert if they would attack the econmic problems at home. Instead Mexico feels the solution is to export the poor and unemployed to the neighbor to the north. They have been handling the problem that way for so long now, that they have become dependant on it, and are resentful when we attempt to seal the border.

All you left wingers that think I am such a terrible person, log onto anyone of the newspapers here in the desert southwest. www.arizonarepublic.com www.lvrj.com those are just two, read them daily for a couple of months and see what is not being reported in Novi, Michigan and Seattle, Washington or Madrid Spain. As an employer of over 75 people I am exposed to this issue on a daily basis and I can assure each and every one of you, this is a much more serious problem than you seemingly will admitt.

I wish all of you nothing but the best. Jabch I might take you up on the recomendation of a therapist. Maybe he will recomend a nice relaxing vaction in Mexico.

Thank you barry, jbach and ditravelphoto. You saved me some time. I've skipped the rest of DD's posts once I read about the body bags. Offensive people such as he are not worth my attention. I thought the original topic was interesting. Mexico is a beautiful place, too bad there is so much corruption, and such a separation between rich and poor. I'm surprised to hear any reference to a middle class--I didn't think there was one. Speaking purely selfishly, I'm glad we didn't also take over Baja California. It's nice to drive down there, see the beautiful coastline and imagine how California was before we developed it all. Similar to southern Portugal, but minus the castles. Surfer heaven.

I want to make clear that nobody in Mexico likes to see a son, daughter, mother, father, brother, sister, or anyone in the family leave Mexico. Just think of yourself in the same position. These people are not a problem "shipped" to the U.S. They are human beings with real needs and forced to leave their loved ones and own land for a better life. In fact think of your great parents when they left Europe to come to the U.S., they probably came here under the same conditions.

As to making a survey too see who wants to be part of Mexico again. The answer is obvious. However, think that if you are born in the U.S., generally that's all you know. In my own family there are people with dual U.S. – Mexican citizenship and they have chosen to stay in Mexico. Why? Because that is were they grew up and where they have had the opportunity to succeed. So when they have come to live in the U.S., they haven’t found here all they need to be happy and they go back. But they don’t have the economic pressure to stay in the U.S. So it goes both ways. If you make a survey among all Mexicans in the U.S., I can assure you that most of them want to go back to Mexico, but they can’t due to economic reasons. I hope what I said makes sense.

My daughter's would be surprised by the Desert Dweller’s characterization that I am a left wing radical.

Mexico doesn’t have a middle class, the real economic engine of any economy. Mexico is not exporting immigrants. United States employers are importing their workforce because they are unable to find workers to perform strenuous manual labor. The Mexican emigrants cross the border because they can get jobs. If they could get jobs in Mexico, they would stay there. How does Mexico get jobs for its workforce? Foreign Investment. Investment in infrastructure projects is the most vital step towards development and job creation. It is an open secret that domestic financial resources are insufficient and foreign investments are a necessity. To attract foreign investments, it is necessary for the government to guarantee security of investments and prepare the ground for foreign investors to easily operate here through creating an effective taxation system.

Desert Dweller’s story about the corruption in Mexico, it could have happened in Chicago!

Jabch: You are right to point out that leaving loved ones is a hard thing to do. Leaving home is never an easy thing to do. You are also right about the European immagrants having to leave family and friends to come to the US. When I left Oregon in 1970 to come to Arizona it was not easy. The overwhelming majority of the people from Mexico that come up here are hard working people looking for one thing and one thing only, A Job. In the case of my business I have seven people from Mexico working for me. (I say people it is 4 men and 3women) They are all here legally and have the proper documents to prove that point. There is a percentage that come up here from Mexico, that as soon as they cross the border attempt to jump on as we say "the government gravy train."

Every Wednesday morning at my office, I sign the payroll tax check for the entire business operation. We are now large enough that the governement insist on weekly payments. Once a year we have a large company meeting and inform everyone what was made that year, what is projected for next year, and where the money went and what they can expect in the way of raises. It is done in the open, and the books are available for one and all to see, no questions asked. I just wish that you could see the sad faces when I explain to them the raises are going to be small and that the taxes and health insurance have ate up the profit. Just this week it was announced on the radio, that the cost of the uninsured people is accounting for about $900 in the annual health insurance premium for those who have health insurance. Putting that all into perspective when I sign that tax check, and know that the cost of health insurance is increased because of uninsured, then I read on an internet web site where a person from a foriegn country "expects" the US to do something for his fellow countrymen. Especially when that person is from country that's leader said no when our's asked for military help just a few years ago. I think you can understand why I can turn into a very nasty man, or to quote Barry "extremely poor taste." I printed your remark about "expect" from the US and posted it on the bulletin board in the shop yesterday. What I said was mild compared to what was said by the people in the shop. Within a few minutes it had obsenities written all over it, and before an hour had gone by it was torn down with foot prints all over it.

Until such time as Mexico is willing to attack it's corrupt officals, that infusion of foriegn capital that Gsobotta talks about will not come. Leaving home to find work will remain the norm.

Incidently Jabch, I printed the one where you told me I need a therapist and put that on the bulletin board also. They all liked that one, "yeah, boss we have told you that for years" "now it is known around the world what a pain in the a-- you are boss." Those are just two of the comments that they wrote on it. So for now you are their hero.

Desert Dweller,

As much as I agree with your assessment of Mexico, I have to ask myself, who can blame them for how they handle their affairs? Do they have a corrupt government?...All governments are corrupt, including ours. Ours is mostly corrupt because it exceeds the function of a proper government, which is to defend it's members against physical force and not all the other social fluff we pay for. We may tell Mexico they have to clean up their act, but it's a little hypocritical.

And what country, besides the U.S., doesn't have the same mentality as Mexico? And, hell, half of our country no longer believes in a free economy. That's why it's Hilary in 2008. This last bastion of economic freedom is sinking I feel. Hail egalitarianism, the equality of the grave.

While I must agree with you that Mexico is a horrible problem for the U.S., and that their policy leads to many innocent Mexican deaths, I don't see any quick solution. I'm more concerned with us maintaining the Utopia we truly have here, than expecting the Mexicans to clean up their government.

DD the issue of immigration is also to be blamed on the American government. Immigration won’t be stopped by the Arizona dessert or Los Pinos. It will be stopped when the most powerful country in the world stops playing the big corporations game and passes a law that requires effective proof of residency or citizenship to obtain a job in this country. How do you think the millions of illegal immigrants managed to not only crossed the borders of the most powerful country, but also to get a house, buy a car, and open a bank account here? It is your own country allowing this. It benefits business. Immigration is not new and your government knows how to solve the issue, but they won’t. What do you want? Fox to say, U.S. please pass a law that will stop millions of dollars from coming to my economy. Of course it won’t happen and Mexico won’t move a finger to stop this. But this does not make the U.S. less responsible for the whole situation.

Also, you posted my message at work and your employees think you are right and I’m wrong. Oh! How surprising. Please don’t fool yourself. They are your employees!!! Why don’t you better ask the members of the board?

Ok. And going back to the original subject:

I saw on PBS a program about the relationship between Walmart and China. I was really surprised to see the amount of American companies and jobs that have been shifted to Asia and specifically to China. I don't even understand why the U.S. is giving so much leverage to China.

In this context, I think Mexico had a similar opportunity when it became part of NAFTA, but I never saw the kind of massive investment that is going on in China happening in Mexico. I don't know to what extent the American corporation is just shopping around for the best cheap-labor market and every time they find a new market the investment will get bigger; or whether Mexico failed to capitalize on this opportunity to attract and make American companies stay in Mexico. As far as I know a lot of American companies have left, are thinking of leaving or have reduced its presence in Mexico to increase operations in China. Most Companies in Mexico stay to offer services to Mexican consumers or because the closeness with the U.S. is important to them. I think of Mexico as the big looser to China.

Do you think that if the U.S. had invested half what they invest in China it would have been really good for Mexico and the U.S.? Meaning less immigration and social service expenses for the U.S. and more jobs and investment in Mexico.

Gazpacho: Let me be the last person to say my govt is perfect. If anyone ever hears me say it is cut my tongue out. Which I am sure some of the left wingers on this board would derive great pleasure in doing now. I love my country but I fear my government.

Some of the politcal hacks that come to mind, Dan Rostenkowski, LBJ, Richard Nixon,Wilbur Mills, Ted Kennedy. The list could go on and on from both side of the isle. Some of the shady deals that come to mind, Watergate, Iran/Contra, Billy Carter being a foriegn agent for Libya while his brother was in the Oval Office. I will admit I tend to remember the crooked Democrats better than the crooked Republicans. The Republicans tend to be simply victims of circumstance and in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Democrats are all a bunch of bastards, out to screw you out of your last nickle. Can you believe people actually get on this board and accuse me of being biased?

As far as a guest worker law is concerned, GWB has been in office for over 4 years now. When ever a member of the press mentions it to him he always says " yeah that is a good idea I think we should have that." He has had over four years now and still not sent anything to congress, and they have not sent one to him for a signature. What it is, is political pay back to Fox for not sending troops to Iraq. He has no intention of setting up a guest worker law, until late in his adminstration, then it will be so he can woo the Hispanic vote for the next Republican Pres. candidate."Look what we did for you." Contrary to popular belief, of some on this board, he is no dummy.

As far as Hillary is concerned, don't bet the farm on it.

Agree with everything DD,

It finally dawned on me the other day. In the literal meaning of the word, it was a Repulican, Abraham Lincoln, who abolished slavery in the 1860's and a Democrat, Franklin Rooselvelt who reestablished it in the 1930s. Yeah, I hate those bums with every paycheck.

Jabch:The American employer is required to have proof of legal residency to hire someone now. There was an article in the Las Vegas paper two weeks ago about getting false ID and the prices of different quality of work on the card. According to that article, a high quality false card goes for about $250 and takes about 2 hours to get. As far as housing is concerned, to rent a house or apartment, no proof of residency is required. We would not do that, as it would not look good around the world for as you say "the most powerful country on earth" to be having people living in the streets. We have some homeless people now but not to the magnitude it would be if proper ID was required. Buying a car and house are another subject. If a person goes to a private party and buys the car, it is not that big of a deal, but to a dealer it would be more difficult. Purchasing a house is an entirely different subject, and difficult to say the least.

As far as your comment about Mexico and China. The US government creates "favored nation status" to entice US business to invest in certain areas. China has favored nation status at this time. The objective is to get as many Chinese working and producing so that the American business man will hold a polictical axe over the head of the Chinese government. The US has for years not been in any hurry to engage in a military conflict with China. When you aid the economy of a country that lowers the chance of military conflict.

As far as you comment about Wal-Mar, you don't want to know what I think of their business practice. Your stomach could not handle what I would have to say about that company.

Massive investment of capital in Mexico from the American businessman. That is always a good idea, but we want to be on an even footing not having to payoff every politician and his dog. Remember what I said about my partners and my experience in Mexico. You are probably right, it would be to the American businessman's advantage to invest in Mexico to relieve some of the social problems on both sides of the border.

On a personal note about China. One of the things my business does is build new houses and recondition old ones for resale. A few years ago we could order concrete with only a two day notice to the plant. Now because so much concrete is being shipped to China, we have to order two weeks in advance.

As per you comment about my employees loyalty, I suppose you could have a point. However I noticed that you did not have any input when I told you that today, after I posted your comment about me needing a therapist, that they all cheered you on, and that you are now their hero. So much for employee loyalty. As far as asking the people on this board what they think of me, they are all convinced that I am a worm. You think I need to be told that. There are somethings I can figure out on my own Jabch. One last question, you commented about my signature Phantom Man do you have any idea what that is all about?

Desert Dweller said:
Not all, Desert Dweller, I for one do not think you are a worm, far from it! I enjoy your libertarian point-of-view and sometimes I even enjoy your sense of humor.

What I admire about your posts most is that you are willing to admit you are wrong and you are willing to spend the time and explain your position, without resorting to trite remarks.

The problem is really very simple, when discussing an issue face-to face with another person we have the ability to see the body language involved in the remark. On bulletin boards such as these we cannot see your facial expression.

Recently on the Spanish only part of this board, a member used a nasty slang word that I found unnecessary and called him on it, he explained that he was attempting to use irony to make his point. Had I been in a face to face conversation, I would have understood implicitly that he was being ironic. But not in posts.

It is evident to me, DD that you have definite beliefs and reasons behind your beliefs about illegal immigration from Mexico. Likewise, other members like Jabch, have equally compelling reasons behind his beliefs. Both of your beliefs are equally valid in the sense that they are your beliefs. But, are your beliefs valid?

You have each gathered those facts that bolster your argument and cement your beliefs with them. Which one of you is right? I don't know. And I don't think anyone of us really knows. All we do know is that it is a complex issue and that there is no easy answer.

What irks me is those that wish to silence the voices that differ from theirs! They really scare me. They speak about the greatness of dialogue, as long as that dialogue falls within their belif system.

My two cents worth!

I agree Booklady,

And I e-mailed him to tell him that at least with him, I can detect a brain behind his words. What better evidence is there to support a view than direct perception? I would rather listen to evidence given by someone in the frontlines than a newspaper reading statitician. The fact that he is intelligent enought to run a business might sway me also.

As to which point of view is correct? We are fortunate to have reality as the final arbitrator, and that's good enough for me.

Gazpacho and Booklady: Thanks for the kind words. I guess the two of you shot down my theory of batting a thousand. Here I thought I had everyone on this board pissed off.

It is easy for people in other parts of the US and world to sit by and make pot shots at me for my views. They are not here and see the things that I see, or experience the things that I do.

The US and Mexico have lived in peaceful coexistance for years. The US has made great strides to bolster the Mexican economy and basically ran pourous border turning a blind eye to the illegal immigration problem. Not rigidly enforceing the laws of the US on the south border. The things that we have done openly and under the table to help Mexico, then two years ago GWB goes to his personal friend Sr. Fox and ask for help with a very unpleasant task. Sr. Fox as we all know said no, he would not return the favors that had been granted Mexico over the years. All of my friends and business associates could not believe Fox did that. Then I read where a citizen of Mexico "expects" something from the US, that sets my blood boiling.

What even throws me for winder is that people here on this board do not see the correlation between the sudden slow down of the American business operations in Mexico and Saddam. Suddenly business that was going to Mexico is now going to China. Suddenly the US needs 2500 more Border Patrol officer on the Mexican border. Someone yesterday said they were "baffled" at my realtionship of the drop of Mexican production from US business interest and Saddam. The Mexican people and Mexican economy are paying very dearly for that "NO" answer two years ago.

Incidently do you think those Canadian cattle have mad cow diease, or do they have Saddamitis. It is not nice to turn your back on friend when he comes asking for help with a dirty job.

Desert Dweller,

It's a shame that the average American doesn't get a chance to voice his opinion in the media (almost said leftist media, but why waste words) and his efforts to preserve this country go widely unreported as well. All that we get out of it is left-wing elitist drivel, that is, America is the biggest evil that ever existed. And now we hear from the Dems, not surprisingly thank you Mr. Dean, that White Christians are causing all the current problems in the world?

The corollaries you point out, that is, our businessmen's relationship to our "friends", in an unbiased press, would be reported. I'm relieved to hear stories about people like you, who can think on their own, and take action in their own hands, even if it isn't reported.

You make it sound really scary. If I wouldn't know that you probably see me as really "leftist" or "socialist" I'd probably be really afraid of them. I find it funny that while you seem to find media biased in the other direction, I always react on that when many US papers write about for example problems that the Spanish government is facing, the story usually says "Spain's socialist government". Our papers never mention those things unless it's something really radical, let's say extreme right, so I'd imagine that's how you feel about the word "socialist". You think we "demonize" the US system, I think you demonize ours.
The words have a very different meaning for you and me, too: in my country most "right-wing" people still support free health care and education and words like "leftist" and "socialist" are mostly used for very left-wing people and parties, and being somewhere in the middle I find it a bit strange to suddenly be "leftist".

Don't feel bad Pia, once on this board, I was called a Communist! :p

It boils down to semantics. Or,how we define words. For example the word "liberal" differs greatly depending on which side of the Atlantic you live. The same applies to the left and right. How we use it only applies to usage here and it seldom really translates to how it is used abroad.

Here's a good explanation of liberal as used in the U.S. only.
http://www.answers.com/topic/liberalism-in-the-united-states

Pia,

I'm really not sure what you're trying to say. No offense, you speak 1000% better English than I ever will Finnish, and that's my fault, not yours. But if you mean that you are scared of our politics, then let me tell you what scares me. The U.S. becoming another people's republic like a European country, or even becoming another Canada scares me to death.

Socialism doesn't have to be extreme to scare me. As a matter of fact it's the mediocrity of socialist countries, and their inability to reinvent themselves that worry me the most.

No, I'm still not saying that I'm afraid of your politics but I find it scary how afraid you are of ours: we've had our system for 50 years soon and what harm has it done to anyone? Extremes are never good, neither in religion nor in politics, and I'm strongly against communism, but I'm also against making health and education into commodities.

Your system has worked for you, which is why you support it so strongly, and I'm sure I would never have had the chance to get to where I'm now living there, which is why I support ours.

An update. Since the last posting on this rather heated thread last June, the stats have been released for FY2005 by the U.S. Border Patrol. A total of 277 illegal aliens died in the Arizona desert during the period of May to October 2005. After autopsy, all were sent back to the country of origin in a dignified manner, and treated with respect while here in the U.S.

With the detriorating economy in Latin America I fear that FY2006 will be worse.

Well, the numbers of this thread are not exactly.

Here is a good comparative of countries extracted from Dataranking.com

Gross Domestic Product:

1 United States
11,733.475
2 Japan
4,668.418
3 Germany
2,706.673
4 United Kingdom
2,125.509
5 France
2,018.080
6 Italy
1,680.691
7 Canada
995.833
8 Spain
992.992
9 Korea, Republic of (South Korea)
681.469
10 Mexico
676.497
11 Australia
617.607
12 Netherlands
577.985
13 Switzerland
358.004
14 Belgium
352.000
15 Sweden
346.531
16 Turkey
300.087
17 Austria
289.717
18 Norway
250.444
19 Denmark
242.344
20 Poland
241.766

(Notes: Today Chinese GDP is bigger than Italian and Spaniard GSP is bigger than Canada)

GDP per capita:

1 Luxembourg
69,929
2 Norway
54,521
3 Switzerland
49,305
4 Denmark
44,929
5 Ireland
44,888
6 Iceland
43,576
7 United States
39,934
8 Sweden
38,449
9 Japan
36,575
10 Austria
35,809
11 Finland
35,670
12 United Kingdom
35,460
13 Netherlands
35,416
14 Belgium
34,244
15 Germany
32,695
16 France
32,663
17 Canada
31,209
18 Australia
30,445
19 Italy
29,219
20 Spain
24,144
21 New Zealand
23,899
22 Greece
18,722
23 Portugal
16,375
24 Korea, Republic of (South Korea)
14,098
25 Czech Republic
10,480
26 Hungary
10,129
27 Slovakia
7,603
28 Mexico
6,506
29 Poland
6,227
30 Turkey
4,251


Homicides:

1 Mexico
14.72
2 United States
6.40
3 Portugal
3.46
4 Poland
2.97
5 Finland
2.82
6 Hungary
2.69
7 France
2.15
8 Slovakia
2.11
9 Italy
1.99
10 Sweden
1.87
11 Canada
1.73
12 Czech Republic
1.71
13 Australia
1.69
14 Korea, Republic of (South Korea)
1.60
15 United Kingdom
1.50 a
16 Netherlands
1.45
17 Greece
1.39
18 Germany
1.37
19 Belgium
1.30
20 Denmark
1.27
20 Switzerland
1.27
22 Iceland
1.25
23 New Zealand
1.23
24 Austria
1.16
25 Norway
.97
26 Ireland
.86
27 Spain
.81
28 Japan
.52

Child related problems:

1 Mexico
2.2
1 United States
2.2
3 Hungary
1.2
3 New Zealand
1.2
5 Austria
.9
6 Switzerland
.8
7 Australia
.7
7 Canada
.7
7 Denmark
.7
7 Finland
.7
11 Belgium
.6
11 Czech Republic
.6
11 Germany
.6
11 Japan
.6
11 Korea, Republic of (South Korea)
.6
16 France
.5
16 Netherlands
.5
16 Poland
.5
16 Sweden
.5
20 Portugal
.4
20 Slovakia
.4
20 United Kingdom
.4
23 Norway
.3
24 Greece
.2
24 Ireland
.2
24 Italy
.2
27 Spain
.1

Robberies, pickpocketing, etc...

Spain
489.8
2 Mexico
270.3
3 United States
220.1
4 United Kingdom
155.7 a
5 Portugal
145.3
6 Canada
102.2
7 Netherlands
101.7
8 Australia
100.6
9 France
88.6
10 Germany
78.4
11 Poland
73.4
12 Ireland
70.9
13 Sweden
68.7
14 Italy
59.9
15 New Zealand
49.0
16 Denmark
46.0
17 Finland
44.5
18 Czech Republic
42.4
19 Switzerland
32.2
20 Austria
31.1
21 Hungary
30.0
22 Norway
27.3
23 Slovakia
24.5
24 Belgium
24.2
25 Greece
12.3
26 Iceland
11.1
27 Korea, Republic of (South Korea)
9.1
28 Japan
2.3
28 Turkey
2.3

Pippo,

There's an old saying my father taught me. "Figures don't lie, but liars will figure." I find it hard to believe that Ireland has a higher GDP per capita than the U.S. And the crime statistics are rather unbelievable too, even if they only point to reported crimes.

I would like to see statistics on home and car ownership and employment statistics. If these show anyone topping the U.S. it will be those liars figuring.

And there's another saying that taught me one of my lecturers at college:

"Statistics is the science which explains that if I eat one chicken and you eat nothing we both eated half chicken".

Maybe it's hard to belive for you that Ireland has a GDP per capita higuer than USA (and I understand why you think that) but if you bet your house on that idea you will lose it, that's sure.

Ireland in 1990 had a GDP per capita almost equally to the spaniard one, but in only 15 years, ONLY 15 Ireland has triple its GDP.
That's easy to understand, Ireland has less than 4 millions of inhabitants, it means that with only a hundred of big companies establishing its european headquarters in Ireland the jump in the income of people will be huge.
That's exactly what has happened: there's a lot of USA companies who has installed itselves in Ireland, If I remember well Microsoft is one of them.
Ireland is more attractive to american companies for two reasons:

1.- English is one of the national languages.
2.- Ireland has very low taxes.

If the same companies had installed their headquarters in a country like India the economic impact would had been WAY LITTLE, because India has one billion of inhabitants.

I copy and paste a good link if you want check the numbers (by the way, it's a great site for people who works or like the ecomics science)

http://dataranking.com/table.cgi?LG=e&TP=ne03-1&RG=1

I can guarantee you that Spain has a bigger percentage of home ownership than USA, not bigger but much bigger, because that's a cultural thing (but this don't means that spaniards have a better income than americans, because the american GDP per capita is 75% bigger than the spaniard one).

If you want to know why USA is such a powerfull and great country you have to see these figures:

a) USA ranks 3 on population (first between OCDE countries)

b) USA ranks first between OCDE countries in percentage of youg people.

c) USA ranks first in GDP, in fact the GDP is so big that is higher than the addition of the next 5 countries.

d) USA ranks 1 in innvation

e) USA ranks first in Technology.

f) USA ranks first in business competitiviness.

g) USA ranks second in national businees environment quality

h) USA ranks 5 in percentage of computers.

i) USA ranks first in military expenditure.

I think that statistics reflect a good image of a country, one exemple, I know in Spain we have a big problem with pickpocketing, I saw the statistics and Spain ranks number 1 of all OCDE countries (I'm not surprised).
If you see the figures of your country, you could check if they show a real "image" of USA, or they don't:

http://dataranking.com/country.cgi?LG=e&CO=30