Embarrassed and Ashamed

Posted by: Chica

Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/07/04 05:53 PM

I wish to apologize to those who opened this thinking they were going to read a thread about Spanish politics.

I just felt that I had to publicly announce my embarrassment and shame at the way some of the US troops have behaved and the atrocities that they have committed in the prisons of Irak.

I was in anguish when several weeks ago the Spanish news broadcast the treatment of US citizens who had been killed, burned alive and otherwise mistreated and tortured. Their cadavers desecrated.

It has been to my utmost dismay and embarrassment to see the same horrid and despicable actions taken by our own troops against the Iraki prisioners. Who the he** do they think they are?

I believe in our troops who put their life and limb at stake for the safety of the USA, but actions that have been recently taken by those who so "proudly" represent the USA have absolutely no excuse. They are reprehensible and the "soldiers" who engaged in those acts should be immediately relieved of their duties and be given dishonorable discharges from the military.

Shame! Shame! Shame! mad mad mad

My question to my fellow Americans is... are you getting news of these atrocities? Have you seen pictures? Or is censorship alive and "well" in the land of the "free"? Today the front pages of the major dailies in Spain sported a photograph of a FEMALE US soldier gleefully holding a rope that was tied around the neck of an Iraki prisoner who was lying half naked on the cement floor...as if she were about to walk her dog.

Who is responsible for training these soldiers? Who ever is should also be relieved of his/her duties.

I am thoroughly disgusted and ashamed to know that this is how my countrymen "liberate" other countries. mad
Posted by: MadridMan

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/07/04 07:44 PM

I'm with you 100%, Chica. It would almost seem as though if you're a world-power, have lots of money and influence that you don't have to follow The Geneva Convention . It states:
Quote:
PART II

GENERAL PROTECTION OF PRISONERS OF WAR

Article 13

Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.
Question: It seems a loophole has been found in that these detainees are apparently NOT consider "Prisoners of War" but rather as "Enemy Combatants". Surely there is some provision somewhere for their protection as well.

Remember back when the war started and the Iraqis captured a number of U.S. Soldiers (actually, they were truck drivers and mechanics if I remember correctly) and their terrified faces were shown on national and international TV? What ever happened to them? Really, what happened to them? Were they killed? Were they released? Did the story get swept under the rug? I'd think that would be a BIG story with either result.

Regarding the recent, shocking photos, WHO WOULD BE DUMB ENOUGH in the first place to be doing these stupid things AND allow their photo to be taken????? confused Were they drunk? Were they under some other influence? I don't believe they were acting under the authority of "higher powers" but rather just bored and stupid and wanted to have some good, clean, American fun. rolleyes I'll bet these same idiots teased the kid with the "lazy eye" on the playground when they were young. Come on. I'd have to guess that with this event alone Mr. Bush could probably start looking now for a new job at the end of the year.

mad MadridMan
Posted by: Wolf

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/07/04 09:48 PM

What happened was wrong, and our military is investigating the situation, but to sit here an be the "apologist to the world" on this forum is absurd. Since you didn't do anything, why should you be offering the apology? Of course I know the answer. Its because of the stance taken in reference to our being in Iraq in the first place. Therefore, its a political statement, not a truely remorseful statement.

What also bothers me is that anyone would say that what some of our troops has done has made the whole scene of American bodies being dragged through the streets by an angry crowd is "lessened" because of what happened. You cannot offset something bad by offering something bad in return. Both issues, and situations stand on their own, and don't "balance the books" as I'm hearing said here. Did you speak out on this forum as to how the Americans were butchered and dragged through the streets? No. So why apologize to the world now?

I'm sorry. Both situations are tragic, and those involved in both situations should be punished to the full extent of the law, not have these turned into a political volleyball of self-righteous indignation with an eye on one's own personal political beliefs.

And yes Chica, we aren't living in the middle ages of media here in the US. They don't even censor the BBC, German news, or any of it that is broadcast here via satellite, so we have their offerings to compare to what we see here. There is no "great conspiracy." You might also want to know that our own major media sources have given the issue more coverage than foreign services.

Wolf
Posted by: la maestra

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/07/04 10:02 PM

I've been thinking about this mess a lot. First, I wonder if what many thought was good old fashioned patriotism was instead the "good old boy" way of getting revenge on an entire group of people who are being lumped together as being the cause of 9/11 by virtue of the fact that they are Muslim.

I wonder if the low life scum who would humiliate, torture and degrade other human beings in this way out of this warped hatred can in any way imagine the hatred of us that brought the terrorists to attack us in the first place. Are they capable of understanding that they just stacked cords of kindling against that fire of hatred by behaving in this sick fashion? Can these brutes understand that Americans could be subjected to the same kinds of abuse in retaliation? Do they understand at all that their behavior has humiliated all Americans as well? I have always gone overseas with the idea in my mind that everything I did or said would be a reflection of all of America because I may be the only American citizen the people I interacted with would ever meet. I am sickened to think that somewhere, someone is thinking that all Americans...including me...could be capable of doing anything as disgusting as what was shown in those photos.

The more I hear about the Iraqi abuse, the more sickened I become. I am ashamed of what we have come to represent in the world because of the actions of the subhumans responsible for the torture. The only bit of light in the cesspool of this matter is the brave man who reported the abuse in the first place. He is apparently the lone voice of reason, morality, compassion, and common sense over there.

I would like to personally apologize to all the people of Iraq for this outrage.
Posted by: Booklady

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/07/04 10:05 PM

Regarding Mr. Bush looking for a new job, that may be but perhaps not for this incident:
here's a news story that belies that impression

Quote:
Bush Apology Sparks Torrent of Global Goodwill

Imams: “You Had Us at "Sorry'”

Washington - The recent apology of US President George W. Bush for abuses by American military prison guards continued to reverberate around the globe today, as the White House was again inundated with a flurry of “apology accepted” notes from world media, governmental leaders, and Islamic fundamentalist clerics.

Typical of the responses was a personal note from Syrian president Bashar Al-Assad, who wrote “aww, dude, you know I can't stay mad at you,” saying that the apology had prompted him to immediately dismantle his country's secret nuclear weapons program. In a postscript, Assad added, “good luck to the Rangers this year.”

“Now was that so hard?” joked Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat in an email to Bush. “Now get out of here ya knucklehead, before we have to do one of those awkward man-hugs.”

The apology also prompted an outbreak of gratitude in the Arab street, as hundreds of thousands of Muslims took to the streets Friday in an impromptu demonstration of thanks. In Gaza, a cheering crowd estimated at 30,000 waved American flags and banners reading “No Prablem Bosh” [sic], while in Damascus throngs gathered in the Square of the Martyrs chanting “U-S-A, U-S-A”.

“I used to dream about dying in a glorious fireball of martyrdom,” said Ali Ahmed Amoud, 23, a marcher in the first annual Infidel Appreciation Days parade in Nablus. “But that apology was so nice and sincere, it just seems kind of petty to keep nursing a grudge.”

In Tehran, the ruling council of Iranian clerics ordered a “national day of celebration and family fun” to commemorate the historic apology. “The Great Satan has given our honor back, so it's time to move on and let bygones be bygones,” said Ayatollah Rafinstani in a nationwide radio address. Rafinstani also announced Iran's immediate nuclear disarmament, and cautioned celebrants not to drink and drive.

In Cairo, local clerics were equally enthusiastic and appreciative of Bush's gesture. In his weekly Friday sermon, Egyptian Imam Muqtaba Salim urged followers to show their appreciation by “reaching out and hugging a Zionist.”

“Sure, they're a little pushy and abrasive, but c'mon guys — let's take a deep breath and count to ten before we go all "martydom operations,'” said Salim.

Perhaps the biggest reaction to the Bush apology occured in Saudi Arabia, where leaders of the fundamentalist Wahabbist sect issued a rare commendation of the president.

“It's just been such a catharsis for all of us,” said Imam Abdelkarim Matwalli, prayer leader of the Grand Mosque in Medina, choking back emotion. “All we really ever wanted was a simple "I'm sorry,' and Mr. Bush delivered. Thank you, America.”

The president's apology was no less well-received in Europe, with dozens of newspapers blaring effusive, pro-Bush headlines. The Parisienne Le Monde declared “All Is Forgiven, George” while the Manchester Guardian lionized Bush as “an Apologizer for the Ages”; the tabloid Sun carried a simple “Dubya, We Lubya” above a flattering photo of the president festooned with garlands.

The apology also appeared to have created a thaw in the United States' sometimes icy relationship with continental political leaders. French President Jacques Chirac and German Chancellor Gerhardt Schroeder issued a joint communique welcoming the United States “back in the fold of civilized nations,” and vowed to introduce a UN resolution asserting the US right to exist, following scheduled week-long pro-Bush demonstrations across Europe.

Newly elected Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Zapatero also commended the President's contrition, and said that “I would gladly once again pledge Spanish troops to the War on Terror, if the whole terror thing ever becomes a problem again.”

Domestic reaction was generally favorable, led by Congressional Democrats who drafted a resolution prasing the President's “bold, thoughtful groveling for world peace,” and calling on Bush to “stop beating yourself up.” Progressive websites such as DemocraticUnderground, Daily Kos and BartCop urged readers to “forgive, forget, and send a nice thank you card to the White House.”

Despite the outbreak of world geopolitical harmony, not everyone was satisfied with Bush's overture. In a scathing OpEd in today's New York Times, columnist Thomas Friedman demanded an additional apology from the President.

Yes it was reprehensible and a bad decision to place individuals in charge of prisoners who have not been psychologically trained to be prison guards. That said, I think that there is a double standard at play here regarding world revulsion at atrocities. Not too long ago several of our security contractors helping to rebuild Iraq were burned alive, ripped apart, and hung from a bridge by Arabs in Fallujah, yet there wasn't any worldwide demand for an apology, was there? frown
Posted by: Chica

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/08/04 06:35 AM

Wolf wrote:
Quote:
What happened was wrong, and our military is investigating the situation, but to sit here an be the "apologist to the world" on this forum is absurd. Since you didn't do anything, why should you be offering the apology? Of course I know the answer. Its because of the stance taken in reference to our being in Iraq in the first place. Therefore, its a political statement, not a truely remorseful statement.
Please Wolf, donīt act so defensive and go back and read my post. I did not apologize for the atrocities. I know I did not do anything wrong. I apologized to those who opened the thread thinking it was going to be about Spanish politics being that I put the post in the Political Commentary section on an All Spain message board.

I did not, in anyway apologize for the inhumane treatment. I expressed my absolute shame and embarrassment at the despicable acts. Political statement? NO. Remorseful? YES. I made no reference to whether or not I thought the USA should be in Irak.

Quote:
What also bothers me is that anyone would say that what some of our troops has done has made the whole scene of American bodies being dragged through the streets by an angry crowd is "lessened" because of what happened. You cannot offset something bad by offering something bad in return. Both issues, and situations stand on their own, and don't "balance the books" as I'm hearing said here. are tragic, and those involved in both
No one is offsetting anything Wolf. I never said one was less than the other. I said that I was horrified (well, OK, my actual word was anguished) by one and EQUALLY horrified by the other. You didnīt "hear" anything "said". I implore you to go back and read my post.

Quote:
Did you speak out on this forum as to how the Americans were butchered and dragged through the streets? No. So why apologize to the world now?
Well, actually, no I didnīt. Did I have to before putting up this post? I did say in this post how I was anguished about what I saw. Should I elaborate on that in order to justify my post about shame?

Did you speak out on this forum about such atrocities? Sorry that I donīt have as much free time to keep up with all the posts on this message board. Lucky you.

Quote:

I'm sorry. Both situations are tragic, and those involved in both situations should be punished to the full extent of the law, not have these turned into a political volleyball of self-righteous indignation with an eye on one's own personal political beliefs.
So, what are my own personal political beliefs Wolf? I never suggested anything about political volleyball or tit for tat. I never made a blanket statement that all the troops are guilty of such acts... I said SOME. And yes, they must be punished, in your words, to the fullest extent of the law.

Quote:
And yes Chica, we aren't living in the middle ages of media here in the US. They don't even censor the BBC, German news, or any of it that is broadcast here via satellite, so we have their offerings to compare to what we see here. There is no "great conspiracy." You might also want to know that our own major media sources have given the issue more coverage than foreign services.
Thanks for the condescending tone Wolf. I never suggested that you are living in the middle ages of media. Perhaps I wasnīt clear enough in my question. What I wanted to know was if the AMERICAN press was portraying the same kind of images that the FOREIGN PRESS (well, specifically, the Spanish press). I am well aware that foreign newscasts such as the BBC, German news, etc are available via satellite. However, I donīt believe that the majority of the US population subscribes to satellite TV which is why it was important for me to know if regular over-the-air American stations were broadcasting such news.

Who said anything about conspiracy? And what foreign coverage are you referring to? The coverage that you see piped into your livingroom via satellite or are you also referring to newspapers and other newsbroadcasts around the world?

Sheesh Wolf. Generally I find your posts interesting. But please, when you post, make sure you understand the essence of the post that you are replying to!
Posted by: Fernando

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/08/04 08:06 AM

You are right. It is a shame.

If we have to teach the citizens of a former dictatorship to live in democracy, we must first give example. Torturing prisoners is not what a democracy's army does.

But this has an easy solution: court and jail those who gave the orders (or participated without orders) to torture the prisoners.

In every army there are people who think they are above the law. Let's teach them that there are laws and rules that can't be broken in a democracy.

Fernando
Posted by: filbert

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/08/04 09:15 AM

Quote:
[Yes it was reprehensible and a bad decision to place individuals in charge of prisoners who have not been psychologically trained to be prison guards. That said, I think that there is a double standard at play here regarding world revulsion at atrocities. Not too long ago several of our security contractors helping to rebuild Iraq were burned alive, ripped apart, and hung from a bridge by Arabs in Fallujah, yet there wasn't any worldwide demand for an apology, was there?
I think the Arabs in Fallujah who comitted this atrocity would come under the category rabble/criminals. I wouldn't expect apologies from the type of person who would do this. However people do not expect the servants of the most powerful Western democracy to engage in acts of torture/brutality. This is why people thought an apology was needed. To his credit President Bush gave that apology...
Posted by: Wolf

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/08/04 10:36 AM

Flibert,

It was an apology that had to be made from our government. It was done, and it should have been done. There was no excuse for the behavior of these individuals, and they should be prosecuted for their actions.

Well said.

Wolf
Posted by: writejudi

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/08/04 08:46 PM

<<Bush Apology Sparks Torrent of Global Goodwill>>

BookLady, where did this terrific tongue-in-cheek article come from? Bush only wishes...

The Red Cross told people in the US government a year ago about what was going on in the prisons (not just in Abu Ghraib either) and NOTHING WAS DONE. Rumsfeld has known since last December or January but says he just read the report, and only the executive summary of it, not the entire report. If that's true, he should resign. If he did read it earlier (and I think he did), it was his obligation to tell the congress and the president. He did neither. Either way, he should resign.

This is a horrible black eye for the US that will be remembered for decades to come. That our soldiers were "just following orders," as some of their family members have said, is no excuse. The judge at Nurenberg said it was no excuse for the Nazis and it is no excuse for these soldiers now. We are all responsible for our own actions.
Posted by: Fernando

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/08/04 09:23 PM

Ummm, Rumsfeld knew it and did nothing to stop it?

As the highest authority responsible for US soldiers he should have informed US president and he should have done something to stop the tortures.

What the hell was he thinking about? How could these torture episodes have ended in anything positive for USA?

It only erodes US international position in this conflict, gives arguments to those against western countries, to terrorists and harms any peace plan for Iraq.

Fernando
Posted by: megia

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/08/04 09:44 PM

So before this turns overwhelmingly into a 'Rumsfeld,' or 'Bush' bashing, let's remember a few things:

1. the ARMY handles this as a court proceeding, meaning, *people are innocent until proven guilty,* *AND* the premature releasing of evidence would *NOT* be justice for the sick individuals guilty of this crime, and that still deserve a fair trial. Show me a court case, civil or criminal, where the evidence is 'shown' to the people *WHILE* it is still in development.

2. None of the staff of the department of defense that we saw sitting at the tables and being questioned by both the senate and the congress had seen the images *until* the airing of 60 minutes II. It was common knowledge that images and video existed, but during a war the premature release of such material can endanger *AMERICAN* troops, whether you agree they should be in Iraq or not. Rumsfeld should have sought out the aid of Bush and the senate/congress to help control the presentation of the information, but again, in order to protect the rights of potentially innocent soldiers the decision was made to let the ARMY do what it *has always done* in way of courts martial. That *IS* the law.

3. *THE DAY AFTER* allegations of prisoner mistreatment were reported, by a SOLDIER, which would be difficult for that individual to do, investigations were opened.

4. As Madridman points out, terrorists are not given status as 'enemy soldiers' by the geneva convention accords, which is a loophole that has been cited by many. However, the USA has its own ethical code for military prisoners that *FAR* exceeds the mandates offered in the geneva convention. It has not been proven yet, but the individuals guilty of these crimes were likely not given orders from the higher links in the chain of command, even if 'softening up' of the prisoners had been ordered.

5. Abu Ghraib was a *dangerous* prison anyway. Very dangerous and militant combatants, criminals, rapists, murderers, etc., were stacked alongside *innocents* that were being threatened daily by the other criminals to not cooperate with American forces. Fights broke out daily between them, and some were killed in mini-riots within the prison. Remember, there is a war going on in Iraq, and as their own courts cannot always handle criminal court issues, it is the responsibility of the USA and coalition forces to assist. In war, unfortunately, *innocent* people get caught up in it. It is a fact.

6. What those soldiers did is horrible, sick, twisted, and gut-wrenching. Really it is. Everyone agrees with this. And using the fact that the enemy would do much worse, *HAS* done much worse, to international press, coalition forces, red cross representatives, military contract personnel, UN personnel, and others, who are attempting to rebuild that country, is not a valid arguement because you cannot use the abhorrent actions of one to justify the equal actions of another. *BUT*, this is a catch 22 because we simply have a higher moral ethic than the enemy combatants. And that is a *FACT*.

chica:
You alluded to a conspiracy when you wrote:
Quote:
Or is censorship alive and "well" in the land of the "free"?
You've got to be kidding. If you think europe is so 'open' and government hands-off, why don't you read the definition of 'Socialism.'

writejudi:
Rumsfeld resign? Bush fire Rumsfeld? How absolutely absurd. They only just read the report because information is *STILL* coming in. Of course they knew bits and pieces along the way as the investigation was taking place. This will be a black eye on America because people like you will force it to live on and apologize for being American until you're blue in the face. Well have at it. I, for one, am more proud than ever to be American because at least we have leaders willing to take the fight to the bad guys.

Booklady:
Just so nobody thinks I am without humor, I did find that article Booklady posted to be humourous. But I am also saddened a little by it.

How about the apology for all the hostages taken? How about the apology for those 4 security workers Booklady mentions? How about Iraqi's step up and take the baton by June 30th? How about France, Russia, and China come out and face up to the "Food for Oil" investigations?

:wq!
Posted by: Booklady

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/09/04 12:40 PM

Megia, excellent post.

Yes that ludicrous article I posted was a bit of "black humor" sent to me by a friend. I thought it fit well in this discussion. I figured those that know me well would know that as a librarian I have been trained to always cite my sources and if you look through my previous posts I always post a URL and cite the name of the writer when posting "real" news. Like you, I thought it sad as well.

What stuck me as quixotic in this thread was the assumption that we here in the U.S. were unaware of what was happening in the Iraqi prison, when the opposite is true. You just have to do a "U.S. news" Google search and that is all you read, and the press has gone berserk showing those disgraceful photos. Also a search of the major TV outlets in the net not only provide you with the photos but many have short video clips of this story.

My point about the worldwide double standard was not that I expected the Fallujah or other Islamic extremists to be ashamed, as our President and the American people are about what happened, but the lack of worldwide disgust at what occurred just a few weeks earlier to those American contractors.

Unlike the worldwide horror expressed now, such did not happen when the horror of what happened to those four Americans hit the newstand. Their story, equally horrendous, or moreso given that they were tortured and then killed, did not solicit the moral outrage that it warranted from Islamic moral leaders, and world leaders, nor the worldwide press. My newspaper, a subsidiary of the NY Times had a couple of paragraphs and that was it. That is what I find distressing.
Posted by: megia

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/09/04 12:50 PM

Booklady, I totally agree with you, and you furthered a great point. I do not know you too well, but I did catch your sarcasm.

It's obvious we are held to a higher standard than others in the world. What a nice compliment! More is expected of us, yet there's the rub.

However, as you stated, it is simply a catch 22. There will be no world condemnation of atrocities commited against innocents there because mean-spirited hypocrites will say our, and coalition, people are getting what they deserve for being over there in the first place.

Well I would argue that the rape, torture, terror, sucide advocates are getting what they deserve. They get to run and hide for the rest of their miserable collective existence. They will die tired.
Posted by: gazpacho

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/09/04 01:55 PM

I've seen some of the photographs of the atrocities against Iraqi prisoners, and I just can't figure out what's going on. If the pictures portray and accurate account of what's going on over there, then the soldiers are an entirely different breed then those that I knew and know. But one thing I do know, I sure don't trust the press to inform us accurately of any event. Also, if political prisoners such as terrorists are being held there, it would seem that security was way to laxed if they permitted pictures inside the prison to be released. For this reason alone, the higher ups in the Department of Defense should be fired and IMHO tried for treason.

Wolf, I agree with your take on Chica. How convenient that she doesn't have enough time to protest against atrocities commited against American troops. I'm sure it's not high on her priority list.

Madridman, you seem a little quick on the trigger agreeing with the left. This is not the first time I noticed it, but I've witheld commenting about it before. I can see the types of problems now you prevented by witholding your opinions in the past.

Megia, military justice does not mean innocent until proven guilty. This applies to civil law, but the UCMJ is a different animal. I know this because I was subjected to it for many years.

I hope soon we can get at the bottom concerning the facts of these photos. If they do portray what the press says they do, then they truly indicate some extreme weaknesses in the people we pay to defend this country. It really wouldn't matter if the weaknesses are a result of the arrogance of lack of accountability or unforgiveable ignorance.
Posted by: Chica

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/09/04 02:30 PM

Quote:
Wolf, I agree with your take on Chica. How convenient that she doesn't have enough time to protest against atrocities commited against American troops. I'm sure it's not high on her priority list.
frown

What take is that?? Gazpacho, you sure are quick to point out what you think is high on someoneīs priority list without even knowing the person. How do you know what I do in my time? Just because I donīt post my life on this board does not mean that I donīt have priorities off it. (Sorry Madridman... I know how you would love for this forum to be everyoneīs priority! wink )

My comment was not a political commentary. Perhaps I should have not put it in the political commentary thread, but just didnīt see any other place that I should have posted it. Neither left nor right nor socialist was mentioned. Heck, I didnīt even mention President Bush. All I did was merely express my dismay at atrocities. It didnīt lessen the atrocities committed against the American citizens nor take away from what my feelings were when I saw the atrocities committed to them weeks earlier.

I am sorry if my question about news coverage in the States raised some of your hackles. That was not my intent either. Very few of you know me personally so I cannot expect you to understand the intent to my post. However, I certainly didnīt think you would interpret it to be malicious either. It was an honest emotional post. I suppose that there are those who look for a political battle wherever they can find it.

Booklady was right, it would have taken a quick google search and I would have answered my questions before posting them here. But even gazpacho states:

Quote:
But one thing I do know, I sure don't trust the press to inform us accurately of any event.
So, maybe my news coverage question wasnīt without merit? I have worked in television and have seen how emphasis can be placed and spun to suit the mediaīs needs. Itīs also too bad that some of you interpret my post to suggest a conspiracy theory. Again, not my intent.

But, I realize that I canīt force you to understand what I believe as you donīt know me. So, keep on reading into things that arenīt there and walk away feeling self righteous. Whatever makes you feel good. rolleyes
Posted by: MadridMan

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/09/04 04:26 PM

Gazpacho wrote:
Quote:
Madridman, you seem a little quick on the trigger agreeing with the left. This is not the first time I noticed it, but I've witheld commenting about it before.
I'm not at all sure how my comments above show sympathy towards the left, right, or otherwise.

Question to Gazpacho: Does the fact that one is RIGHT always mean they are right/correct? I think not. It's not exclusive unto itself. The U.S. government is most certainly on the RIGHT - probably further RIGHT than any US government has been in a lonnng time. Franco was RIGHT too, remember? Was he right/correct all the time? The whole RIGHT/LEFT argument is tiresome and, in my mind, holds no weight. What's fair and just IS what holds weight. Was it fair/just to hang the bodies of US Servicemen in the streets? Of course not. That's no issue here. We're not talking about an-eye-for-an-eye justification... which leads only to total annihilation... we're talking about humane treatment on our and everyone's part.

Seriously, MadridMan
Posted by: Fupanier

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/10/04 10:42 AM

Let me first add my disheartened disgust at what those fools did in Iraq to those prisoners. We're horrified because we believe that we're better than those who would do such things. Iraqi's have been asked to take a leap of faith in moving towards democracy with us as temporary stewards. There's no question that the leap will now have be far greater.

For those of you that try and implicate the country - Bush - or Rumsfield in the activities, my guess is that your conclusions were built before this ever happened. I also figure that you know better. The US has been universally revolted - including the president. Everyone knows that this served - and serves no good purpose and has now placed those who already have a tough job on the ground there, at greater risk. Those that have given their lives (including Spaniards) for the higher ideal deserve better.

How the US reacts as a nation to this will tell the tale. And so far fellow citizens have done me proud. They have been universally angry (even beyond those of you wishing to take political advantage) - and the leader of a massively powerful nation has bowed to apology for what would be considered (sadly) common and minor abuse in much of the world.

"" I'm with you 100%, Chica. It would almost seem as though if you're a world-power, have lots of money and influence that you don't have to follow The Geneva Convention.""

Geez MM, you make it sound like policy - and common among those that serve. That mistake was made in Vietnam - and should not be made today. Those that are serving honorably - some now laying in VA hospitals with missing limbs - don't deserve it.

We have got to look unflinchingly at what happened - and correct it. I believe that we will - and that process is already underway....

Fup
Posted by: MadridMan

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/10/04 10:44 AM

Sorry, Chica. I've decided to move this/your thread to the Non-Spain Discussion category.

Saludos, MadridMan
Posted by: Chica

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/10/04 11:08 AM

No apology necessary Madridman. Thanks for moving it.

Itīs where I should have posted it in the first place as all I was doing was posting heartfelt feelings, not making a political commentary. rolleyes
Posted by: gazpacho

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/10/04 12:55 PM

Madridman,

Thinking that the U.S. should be following the Geneva Convention is not leftist. But when you agree with Chica 100%, perhaps you could tell me, who she is apologizing to? And when you say that the President will be looking for a new job in 2004, need I say more.

No, the right is not alway right. But to paraphrase an expression from basic training, "it might not always be right, but it's never wrong." To me, the left is alway wrong -when it gets to spinning, and spinning it almost constantly does.

Yeah, Franco was to the right, but only as far right as a Socialist can get, which creates much conflict. You can't have a viable capitalist society without individual rights.

Bottom line. Yes, the photos are dispicable, but no, not outrageous as the left would have them be. To me, they're just bizarre.

Chica,

Sharing your life story here on this bulletin board? Is that what must be done to infer what someone shares in their posts?
Posted by: MadridMan

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/10/04 03:05 PM

Umm.. Gazpacho, Chica wasn't apologizing to anyone about the topic itself just about its original placement (in the Political Commentary category). If you read the first line in her posting:
Quote:
I wish to apologize to those who opened this thinking they were going to read a thread about Spanish politics.
And my suggestion of the possibility that Bush will be looking for a new job HARDLY constitutes a leftist statement. That's laughable. I certainly hope you're not implying that anything critical said about our US President is a LEFTIST statement. rolleyes

So Gazpacho, if the LEFT is always wrong to you, you'd say that all democrats are in the wrong? They're "left", you know (is only slightly left of center but still LEFT).

And Gazpacho wrote:
Quote:
Yes, the photos are dispicable, but no, not outrageous as the left would have them be. To me, they're just bizarre.
Wow... That statements says quite a lot - about which I won't comment.

I think I'm done with this thread. Just goes to show that we're all shouting into a black hole, here.

Saludos, MadridMan
Posted by: Wolf

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/11/04 11:21 PM

At the end of WWII, the allies treated Nazi guerillas who continued fighting as being terrorists. As such, they had no rights, and when caught, were summarily presented to a military court, and if found guilty, immediately taken out and shot or hung. This was not considered a violation of their rights under any treaties, or agreements, including the Geneva Convention.

Since these terrorist guerillas in Iraq are operating under the same premise, and find it possible to execute an American civilian whose only crime was to be there as a truck driver, to rebuild their nation, do we owe them the respect that we've been discussing here in this thread?

If you haven't taken the time to watch an American civilian being beheaded by the crudest of means, it might be time that you find a site out here on the internet and take a damned good look at the type of people that we're apologizing for treating badly. It might give you a slightly different perspective on the issue.

This doesn't make what has happened in Iraq to prisoners any different, but it does shed a little light on the savagery of the people who some people are feeling sorry for. To me, they are animals, and instead of incarcerating them in the future, we should use military justice, and eliminate them from being capable of rendering any further harm to humanity.

Wolf
Posted by: deibid

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/12/04 03:31 AM

What makes 'us' different from 'them'? That they do this kind of brutalities and we don't.
If we start to cross the line, we will be no different from them , and everything will be justified.
This is suposed to be a civilized against barbaric people conflict.
Let's keep it that way. Torture is unacceptable always, no matter against whom.
Posted by: gazpacho

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/12/04 08:15 AM

Hear, Hear Wolf,

Chica, where's the outrage!?!?!?!

mad Madridman, do you agree 100%

I'm too disgusted to say more.
Posted by: Wolf

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/12/04 09:10 AM

Here's something that people should read.

Article 1, Geneva Convention: Paragraph 2:

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions: (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

To be treated under the accords of the Geneva Convention, the above stated criteria must exist. Please note it specifically DOES NOT include anyone who would fight in civilian clothes, and act the part of a terrorist. When arguing the Convention, people might want to take note of this, because any idea that these terrorist/guerillas are part of any military is absurd. They are terrorists, plain and simple, and have absolutely no rights under the agreements of the accords. To treat them as if they have this right is not necessary, and downright foolish.

You may "rage" against what I said, and you have a right to do so. But first, please take the time to watch Mr. Berg being beheaded. Then post your feelings about how we are "abusing" people who are terrorists.

Wolf
Posted by: Dommo

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/12/04 09:34 AM

I think the point is that the "people who we are feeling sorry for" are ordinary Iraqi civilians who ended up getting stuck in a prison for no real reason. As for the people who committed the horrible execution of Mr Berg, you can assume these are not just Iraqi citizens and are terrorists as you said. To lump these two groups of people together is exactly what we don't need happening : On the one side we will have Iraqis thinking that *ALL* of the US military are torturers and murderers and the US thinking that *ALL* Iraqis are terrorists and murderers. Both sets of wrongdoers should be dealt with but not at the expense of everyone else.
Posted by: gazpacho

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/12/04 11:10 AM

Madridman,

Quote:
We're not talking about an-eye-for-an-eye justification... which leads only to total annihilation
Complete annihilation of terrorism....Sign me up.

Poor old Iraqi civilians....Puh-lease.

Guys and gals of the Madridman bulletin board! This is not time to sit and drink tea and have a conference about our differences..This is war. Get it!?!?!
Posted by: Lynnseedoil

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/12/04 11:18 AM

Gazpacho,
you're getting fanatical here.
what's the difference between an Iraqi citizen and an American citizen? there is no difference. there are terrorists from every country and there are innocent people from every country. please don't make assumptions about people's innocence or guilt based on their nationality. that's just absurd.
Posted by: Dommo

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/12/04 12:56 PM

"Poor old Iraqi civilians....Puh-lease."

Yes, most of them are poor after 10 years of sanctions...
Posted by: gazpacho

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/12/04 02:12 PM

Dommo,

I can forgive you because you're from the U.K. and it wasn't a Brit that was butchered, no, butchery is not what they did to our U.S. citizen...something, unspeakable.

My main disgust is for Americans who are "embarrased and ashamed" about what goes on in prisons in Iraq.

You wrote:

Quote:
As for the people who committed the horrible execution of Mr Berg, you can assume these are not just Iraqi citizens and are terrorists as you said. To lump these two groups of people together is exactly what we don't need happening :
Why aren't people assuming that it's not ordinary Iraqi citizens in these prisons, instead they are terrorist trying their best to kill Americans?!?

It must have been the comment about drinking tea? Cheers....
Posted by: Dommo

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/12/04 02:39 PM

I fully accept that people get slapped around when apprehended in such volatile situations as Iraq but what the US soldiers did in the jail went over the line (and a bit silly taking pictures). Regarding the people in the prison it has been widely publicised that a lot of the people in there had been caught up in it through no fault of their own.

As for my being British affecting how I think about someone being beheaded.... I wouldn't want *anyone* to face that, irrelevant of where they are from or even what they have done.

As for tea, I prefer a nice warm beer at the pub with the chaps and jolly bit of banter and back-slapping, what ho. wink
Posted by: Fernando

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/12/04 03:21 PM

I think the main difference between Iraq's guerrilla/terrorism/resistance and the Coalition Army is that ones represent their leaders' interests while the Coalition Army represents democracies.

In democracies, people have rights, no matter which nationality they have, no matter their race, their gender or the crimes they have committed.

While you don't expect terrorists to adhere to any rules, laws or conventions, we expect our democracies and our armies to adhere to the same principles we are fighting to defend. Otherwise we would be no better than terrorists.

Therefore, british and american soldiers (or soldiers of any other nationality) who have committed acts of torture should be inmediately prosecuted, not only because they have broken our own laws, which example are we giving to iraqis who expect us to establish a democracy in their country if a soldier can torture and kill prisoners without punishment? USA Government is not managing post-war in a smart way.

As for the Tallion law:
"Eye by eye... the world will be full of blind people" (Ghandi)

Fernando
Posted by: Chica

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/12/04 04:30 PM

Last night, as I was watching the news, I logged onto the Internet to research deeper the beheading of an American citizen.

And yes, it went straight to my heart. I cried as I read the articles and interviews with the family. I was thoroughly disgusted at what happened. Absolutely. No doubt about it. It hit me hard as an American citizen. It hit me hard as a person who grew up just 10 miles from where Mr. Berg lived. Indeed the terrorists that beheaded him are savage beasts.

However, what I think really doesnīt matter as Gazpacho has so clearly pointed out in so many posts. As long as I think that the vile acts that were committed in the Iraqi prisons were shameful, I will never be an upstanding citizen in Gazpachoīs eyes. rolleyes

As for tea drinking. I am in Spain my dear Gazpacho. I am drinking coffee and prefer it solo whenever possible and "del tiempo" in the hotter summer months.

Quote:
While you don't expect terrorists to adhere to any rules, laws or conventions, we expect our democracies and our armies to adhere to the same principles we are fighting to defend. Otherwise we would be no better than terrorists.

Therefore, british and american soldiers (or soldiers of any other nationality) who have committed acts of torture should be inmediately prosecuted, not only because they have broken our own laws, which example are we giving to iraqis who expect us to establish a democracy in their country if a soldier can torture and kill prisoners without punishment? USA Government is not managing post-war in a smart way.
Well said Fernando. My sentiments exactly.

Well folks, Iīm done with this thread. Enjoy the debate.

P.S. Wolf, thank you for your more balanced posts. Although we havenīt always seen eye to eye, itīs nice to see someone can present their arguments in a civil manner.
Posted by: gazpacho

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/12/04 05:21 PM

Carmen,

Please don't go away mad... wink

Wolf, help me out here, I'm jealous and crestfallen... You think she didn't get the reference to tea and Dommo from the U.K? eek

No, I say what I mean and I mean what I say. I have no need in sharing my life story. War is ugly, and all I see in these bizarre photos are American troops treating prisoners like animals. After the vicious slaying of one of our citizens, what little sympathy I might have held is gone. Chica, I've read your original post several times, and all I see in it as an anti-American statement. Let our boys finish what we started and please remember them in your prayers, all of them. frown

Dommo,

Warm beer and cold toast are barbaric. I would worry about your culture if it wasn't for the excellent tea in England and Coronation Street. Oh yes, and Steptoe and son..Ha ha.

Fernando,

You are right. The U.S. government is not handling post-war Iraq in a smart way. We'll correct ourselves and try again better tomorrow. Only Allah is perfect.
Posted by: Fernando

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/12/04 07:32 PM

Off-topic: I have been reading awhile and there is a thing that surprises me most in the posts between americans.

Whenever someone criticizes some US Government's decissions or simply suggests some things could be done in a different way there is always some americans (I suppose they are republicans, but I don't know) who systematicly label the first ones as a) Antipatriotic and b) Leftist. As if that would explain everything else in the world and no further arguing is possible.

Is there anything else more anti-democratic? People have their ideas, and is very healthy to think about our own governments to see what things are not being done well, no matter if the government is of your political party or not.

Leftist! As if it was an insult... Every democracy in the world has left political parties... except USA in which they are a minor minority. You have the right (democrats) and the right of the right (republicans).

Personally I hate when people do such things. In Spain it works in a similar way: PP followers are labeled as fascists, antidemocratics,... and that ends any debate. Some people of the spanish left think they are in posession of the flame of the truth, and any other is not legitimate to think the opposite.

Again: Is there something less democratic than label others' ideas as illegitimate?

Fernando
Posted by: Kurt

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/12/04 07:58 PM

Wow. I just read Dommo blame "sanctions" for the wretched state of Iraqi civilians lives. Well, old boy, that can't possibly be the case. You, see, The magnanimous United Nations started this "Oil-for-Food" program, that President Saddam so graciously allowed food and medicine to be distributed to the poor Iraqi civilians in exchange for the limited and tightly controlled sale of Iraqi crude oil. So, you see now, the 'sanctions' couldn't possibly have hurt those poor Iraqi blokes, since the wise sage Kofi Annan and the benevolent Pres. Saddam had the foresight to take care of all their problems and provide them a paradise by the Euphraties not seen since the days of Eden.

But of course, administering the "Oil-for-Food" program through the good offices of that champion of Iraqi well-being Saddam Hussein was like administering the Marshall Plan with Hitler still in power. You remmber the Marshall Plan, Dommo old boy, don't you? That was when the American people gave and gave and gave to help Europe recover from its self-inflicted wounds of WWII. Why, I'd wager you'd be a right wanker if you didn't ackwnolege the blessing of American domination during the time of Stalinism.

But, don't you know chap, the "Oil-for-Food" program was really a scam for Saddam to fill his Swiss bank accounts with bribes from the UN, et. al. and build palaces, and officals from the paragons of peaceful brotherhood like the UN, France, Germany, Russia and China to stuff their pockets with kickbacks and oil contracts straight from ol' Uncle Saddams himself.

So, Dommo old boy, when you and your mates are down at the pub enjoying your warm beer and cursing the Americans and the 'troubles' in Iraq as a bloody 'war-for-oil', you'd be absoulutly right. Just not in the way you think.

Cheers!
Posted by: Wolf

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/13/04 12:45 AM

Fernando,

You're absolutely right. For some reason, in American politics, we have quit using Republicans and Democrats and started to use left and right wing rhetoric. But I believe the reason for that is that both political parties have drifted so far left and right that they no longer truly represent the majority of their constituents. I'm going to guess here but.... I'd say roughly half of all Americans can't abide by either party in their hardcore beliefs. In the process, we often end up electing people based not on what we consider our personal platform, but often on the basis of what we consider "the lesser of two evils." Now I don't mean that in the term of evil, but in a political atmosphere. As in my case, I look for moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats to vote for. Anyway, that's my perspective.

Wolf
Posted by: Dommo

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/13/04 02:56 AM

Kurt,

I'm fully aware that the root of the problem was Saddam (and western governments who supported him). My point was simply that your average Iraqi has had a pretty tough time of it over the past 15 years and now being blanket labelled as a terrorist isn't helping.

As for WWII I'm not about to continue that line of conversation.

My posts weren't anti-american and I'm sorry if they came across that way to you. As someone else pointed out though, it seems that you're 'anti-american' if you don't support the war and everything that the current Republican government does.
Posted by: deibid

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/13/04 04:06 AM

I can't believe what I read here.
Beheading anyone is a terrible crime.
Torturing anyone is another terrible crime.
Is it so hard to understand? or are democracy and civil rights dead?
I'm very concerned about the kind of world we are creating and the future we are leaving to our sons.
This is sad.
Posted by: Asterault

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/13/04 06:07 AM

Excuse me while I blow the dust off of this message board account... *COUGH*

I'm sorry I haven't been around for a while... however the contents of this thread explain why.

Glad to see you're still posting Wolf and that you still are as reasonable as ever. And your quick temper is still there too wink

Venga ya Chica sabías que iban a por tí con esto!

And where oh where is Calibasco??? Kaixo??
Posted by: Wolf

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/13/04 06:56 AM

Good to see you back Asterault! I missed you! Seriously! Your point of view is important.

I think the question we should be asking ourselves, and we obviously don't have the answer to it at this time, is who are the prisoners that have been humiliated? If they are terrorists, and not "another Iraqi" as has been alluded to in some posts, why should there be any question as to how they are treated? They are not protected by the Geneva Convention or the World Court in any way or form, if they are insurgents.

To continue to lump them in with the rest of the prisoners whom I don't know the reason for their incarceration, isn't realistic. You deal with terrorists in a manner consistent with the policies you have in place to deal with them, and as far as their human rights, essentially they have none.

If psychological humiliation is an effective measure of getting these people to give up other terrorists, I find it difficult to believe that the humiliation and degredation they are facing is really as serious a problem as people would like to believe it is.

In essence, their treatment is one hell of a lot better than that which was given Berg. Like someone said. Which is worse? Beheading like was done to Berg, or humiliation? That should be an easy enough question to answer.

Wolf
Posted by: Asterault

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/13/04 10:15 AM

I'm sorry Wolf I can't agree with that.

"They are not protected by the Geneva Convention or the World Court in any way or form, if they are insurgents."

They are protected by the convention of "we are not a bunch of sadistic thugs." If US troops are there to "teach democracy" and "make friends" that would include providing proper judicial procedures for everyone. Y punto, sin excepciones.

When are you in Spain then?
Posted by: Wolf

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/13/04 01:04 PM

Asterault,

Actually I can't argue against your point because I agree with it. We should be above those tactics. But, of course, we aren't. But we should recognize that there are tactics used in the realm of intelligence that go outside the norm for prisoners being held for crimes. They're there, and they are used, in probably just about every nation, regardless of what they say openly.

What I'm trying to convey is that much of the outcry we've been hearing about the pics from the Iraqi prisons is that it is "poor Iraqis," never alluding to the fact that the people in the pictures more than likely are not people who stole a wristwatch, or picked someones pocket. These pictures may very well be of only hardcore terrorists whose agenda is to kill anyone who doesn't follow, and obey, their way of life. Sometimes we become a little jaded in our views by saying... "Those poor men......" when in reality, they are beasts. Just trying to keep things in perspective on it, not throw it out as a defense for what's being done.

I'm hoping to get to Spain in September or October, health permitting. I miss it. We have to meet for a cup of cafe con leche, or a beer. I'd like that. I need to go on a tapas walk so badly..... frown

Wolf
Posted by: gazpacho

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/13/04 05:15 PM

Fernando,

I've never called a leftist unpatriotic, though you could be referring to accusations made by others. Chica is not unpatriotic in my mind. Just extremely misguided in her philosophies, God Bless her.

What strikes me odd in this country is the repugnance of the label "leftist" especially, by the left. That you consider Democrats right is puzzling to me. Ours haven't been allowed to turn down right Socialist, but they try hard when in power.

I don't understand why you, or even Madridman don't like the right vs. left issue. For me it's just a fact of life. You'd have to be an ostrich not to recognize it's existence.

Wolf is right. We are so polarized in our politics in this country right now. You must understand this from your own history? The red and blue areas of the U.S. during the last election are similar to the Republic vs Nationalist map of Spain in 1936. You'd have to be a little dull not to see the parallels.

Personally, if you can't tell by now, I'm on the right, and it just irks me when someone posts an anti-Bush message because he is sooo much better from that last piece of trash president. Ol' bubba was just a plain embarrassment. Fortunately, he was the only Democrat president during my adulthood. But he was the darling of the left and the press, which is the same. At least now, you don't have to turn on the news and listen to another sordid scandal every week. wink Of course they all were started by the evil Republican conspirators...give me a break.

Chances are Chica is not a leftist, but is merely regurgitating leftist propaganda. It bothers me that we are so inundated with anti-American news over here and news of our successes are either not presented or given sparse mention. I wish there was a news channel, network that would just present the facts without spin, left or right, but believe me, it doesn't exist. So when people, like Chica, accept what's in the news as the God's honest unquestionable truth, I have to wonder about her critical thought processes. That's all.

I hope this rambling explains things from an American's point-of-view. I've read posts from you that are very reasoning and reasonable. You don't seem anti-American in all your posts and if you are in some, more power to you.
Posted by: gazpacho

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/13/04 05:24 PM

Deibid,

Could it be possible that during the prosecution of a war, that is, America's war on terror, that democratic processes and civil rights take a back seat to victory?!?! Just something to "think" about.

We didn't ask for this war. We were attacked and for God's sake, we are not a nation to sit on our hands, or wring our hands in front of the U.N. and let it happen again. If the moslems would have left us alone and fought battles in their own backyard, we would have been the first to protect their right to be what they are. But no, they had to mess with us. They underestimated us and still underestimate us.

It's hard for Americans to tolerate the brutality of anyone. I hate it, but I want to win this war on terror and go on and spend this nation's energies and resources in spreading freedom and democracy.
Posted by: salamanca02

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/13/04 09:09 PM

Gazpacho---- just so you get one thing straight...Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. Good ole Bush used 9/11 as an exuse to attack Iraq...Dont get me wrong, Saddam was a horrible tyrant who never deserved his power...but Read the information, its out there. Or could it be that you dont let yourself understand the truth. President Bush is a disgrace to the people of this country...he does not and has never operated with OUR needs in mind.
Posted by: aidance

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/14/04 12:03 AM

Thank you salamanca02. Bush has done so much damage to our country in so little time--and all in the name of patriotism. Sadly, I have no doubt that in time we on the "hated left" will be proven 100% right. I pray it will all be fixable. Sure wish I could drown my sorrows with some vino tinto in a Spanish bar right about now. wink
Posted by: Fupanier

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/14/04 09:24 AM

Sorry guys, none of it had to do with "patriotism", and nobody has said that it did. 9/11 used as a reason - yep, and a good one. The greatest hope for fighting terrorism is with Islams help. And the greatest hope for that help is a free and democratic Islamic country. Easy? Nope. But it's the only hope for meaningful change. Wishful thinking won't do it - and the desire by the left to actually BLAME Bush for creating terrorism is bizzare at best.

"..he does not and has never operated with OUR needs in mind."

Really? What "needs" are those?

"Sadly, I have no doubt that in time we on the "hated left" will be proven 100% right."

This is what's scrary, I'm afraid that it's more important to the left to be correct about Iraq - than to have success there.

I haven't heard the term "hated left" quoted - any more than I've heard people called "unpatriotic" - beyond the left declaring that opposition to their view is defacto calling them unpatriotic. However, the "hated Bush" seems to have evolved into something worse to them than the mass-murdering Hussein. The left agrees, yeah, Hussein was bad, but getting rid of him was somehow worse eek I'm glad that I'm not in a position to say that I'm glad Hussein's gone, but not glad that he was removed....

"Sure wish I could drown my sorrows with some vino tinto in a Spanish bar right about now. wink "

Common ground at last!

Fup
Posted by: Asterault

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/14/04 10:50 AM

Quote:
I've never called a leftist unpatriotic, though you could be referring to accusations made by others. Chica is not unpatriotic in my mind. Just extremely misguided in her philosophies, God Bless her.
Quote:
I can forgive you because you're from the U.K. and it wasn't a Brit that was butchered, no, butchery is not what they did to our U.S. citizen...something, unspeakable.
Sorry to get off topic, but Gazpacho who are you to judge who is misguided? Or forgive? I know Chica and she is completely "guided," intelligent, reasonable, and courteous. And Dommo seems to be rather friendly as well. Unlike you - you are condescending, arrogant, and insulting. And you choose political sides like a football team and follow blindly. People like you are dangerous. Inform yourself about world events a little more thoroughly please.

Sorry for that Madridman... if you need to give me a slapdown I understand.
Posted by: MadridMan

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/14/04 12:50 PM

Asterault wrote:
Quote:
People like you are dangerous. Inform yourself about world events a little more thoroughly please.
Sorry for that MadridMan... if you need to give me a slapdown I understand.
I have no comment. laugh
Posted by: gazpacho

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/14/04 04:49 PM

Asterault,

Quote:
condescending, arrogant, and insulting.
Those are my good traits. Who am I to have an opinion? Maybe a thinking, rational individual.

How many pages of leftist propaganda do you deem necessary for me to read before I am informed of world events? You see, that's the problem. Name me a source out there that isn't tainted by leftist propaganda.

Salamanca,

Yeah, the war in Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11. I've heard this leftist misinformation a few times. But I've never heard it from a reliable source.
Posted by: salamanca02

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/14/04 09:02 PM

Well then my Gazpacho friend, you should really cocnsider what your "reliable" sources are. oh wait....where DID those weapons of mass destruction go, seems as if they COULDNT find any.......
Truth is truth, no other way around it. Like someone said earlier, Your way of thinking is TERRIBLY dangerous.....
If you would like a list of sources, i would be happy to give provide them to you. What or who may i ask are YOUR sources, CNN, NBC??? Remember who owns those stations....
Posted by: salamanca02

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/14/04 09:04 PM

Gazpacho, one more thing? Do you really believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11????? Where was it again that those horrible hjackers were from, just a country over........

Nothing upsets me more....
Posted by: barry

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/14/04 10:19 PM

Here's an analysis of the photos I found surfing the web. Don't look Gazpacho!

http://www.counterpunch.org/block05142004.html
Posted by: Fupanier

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/14/04 11:34 PM

"I want to take a long, hard look at Bush's sexuality. Because The Photos are Bush's porn. Oh, he says they "disgust" him. Of course, they do. Listen, I'm a sex therapist. Many of my clients will say something disgusts them at first, only to confess a few sessions later that it really turns them on."

Even a partison could recognize that goofy nonesense barry rolleyes

Fup
Posted by: Fupanier

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/14/04 11:38 PM

Salamanca02 - They haven't found the WMD, but sorry, that doesn't indicate evil. Everyone thought that they had them. And if Bush was evil enough to lie about them being there - he would have been evil enough to make SURE that they found them....

Fup
Posted by: salamanca02

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/15/04 12:18 AM

Everyone was made to think they had them. anyways, thats really besides the point. I think it should be 100 percent fact before you go in and rip apart a country that doesnt want us there in the first place. And if that the 100 percent proof is not there, then do not stage a war in its name...
Posted by: Wolf

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/15/04 06:00 AM

Barry,

Note exactly a reliable source, but my guess is you knew that. There are some real funny articles in there. Whenever I want a laugh, its one of my favorite places to go for conspiracy and paranoia freaks. laugh

Wolf
Posted by: Fupanier

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/15/04 09:18 AM

salamanca02,

How soon we forget! The war was not waged exclusively in WMD's name, violation of the first war's agreements were more than enough. The country was already in pieces, allot worse than we expected (another intelligence breakdown).

All you have to do is look at the 9/11 commission circus to see if you should wait for "proof" before acting against violent maniac's (like Hussein). The US was no longer going to take any chances. World sympathy was not going to stop terrorism, and inspite of all the hysteria, Bush has provided the best chance for democratic freedom in the Arab Middle East. Those that are trying to stop it there would like to maintain the US as an enemy - and don't want the hand-over of power to a democratic Iraqi. If they just wanted us out, all they'd have to do is wait, and not that long (they know that). Like here, a sussessful tranfer of power would be bad for their own political power hopes.

Inspite of the prison fiasco, the people on the ground there have done a great job and are working hard to re-build much of the country. The greatest mistake was probably the total disbanding of the original Army, and most of the police. They weren't all engaged in the worst form of brutality, and bringing them back under careful screening will help allot.

I wish the UN was more affective, but thy're not. The same forces that are snipping at US forces would do the same to them - except that they'd bug-out immediately. They have a terrible record in tough circumstances....

Okay, I'm done. cool

Fup
Posted by: Booklady

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/15/04 10:14 AM

Hola Fupanier, fine post, but I feel like a devilishly, BAD girl this morning laugh laugh

Quote:
I wish the UN was more affective, but thy're not.
eek eek

Perhaps if we substitute an e for an a:
Quote:
I wish the UN was more effective, but thy're not.
I just can't envision those guys going around sharing their "love and affection" with the rest of us! laugh laugh

Back to being serious now...

However, I totally agree, their ineffectiveness is their hallmark. Ayn Rand pegged them right years ago, they are a bunch of money hungry, greddy, political "Ali Babbas". Quite frankly, why the heck do we continue feeding such an albatross is beyond me.

If anything, the root causes of the war in Iraq are embedded in the "FOOD FOR OIL" program in Iraq, and all of its hypocrisy and overweening greed! Remember the French insistence that "hell no we won't vote" attitude? Now we understand why. No high moral values involved here, but plain downright greed, greed, and more greed at the expense Iraqui suffering.

The U.N. was the one that perpetuated and strengthened the idea that Saddam Hussein had WMD all along. At least that is all Hans Blix talked about, right to the end.
Posted by: Kurt

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/15/04 12:44 PM

People here need to actually read David Kay's report and not the New York Time's or Le Monde's spin on it. There were chemical and biological weapons programs ongoing in Iraq. There were no great stockpiles discovered (yet, remeber only 10% of that nation has been searched for such), but labs, reference strains of biological agents, stockpiles of chemical precursers, documentation on research and development programs that were intended to be 'hot-wired' to begin production on short notice (but were not actually producing at the time) and evidence of the transfer of materials and research to third countries (read:Syria) have all been documented. There were also production facilities for specialized rocket fuel that could only be used fro prohibited long-range SCUDS.

As for the "no 9/11" connection. Well, al Queda didn't have an embassy in Baghdad. But there is evidence that Iraqi intelligence had met with al Queda operatives (al Zawahri) and was interested in developing a working relationship with them. Then there are the persistant rumors that bin Laden sought medical treatment for his kidney ailments in Baghdad on several occasions. And the still unrebutted allegations that Mohammed Atta met with Iraqi agents in Europe in the summer of 2001. Then there is the general anti-American propaganda and hatred, whose chief proponents were Saddam and bin Laden. Sorry there is no definitive paper trail for you international lawyers out there who demand proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but were not in a courtroom here.
Posted by: aidance

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/15/04 12:56 PM

The chief proponents of anti-American propoganda and hatred are the classrooms in Saudi Arabia, where most of the hijackers came from. Gee, why didn't we invade there? rolleyes
Posted by: Fupanier

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/15/04 01:01 PM

Ack! - Booklady, got me. I'm afraid that misspelled words are a hallmark of my posts - Shucks. wink

Good follow-up!

Kurt, I don't discount that there were NO WMD issues with Hussein. But you have to admit that we were excpecting large stockpiles - and we've had to adjust our expectations - - - no?

Fup
Posted by: gazpacho

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/15/04 01:37 PM

Wolf, Booklady, Kurt, Fupanier,

Thanks a million. There have been some amusing posts from the other side. The left always attacks the messenger when they have no logical arguments against the message. "Who are you to..." always tickles me. I guess I have to be a member of the liberal elite or mouth their platitudes, to have an opinion. rolleyes But I'm a big boy and get a good laugh from being insulted by the like. No whining to the Madridman for me.

It seems that getting along takes presidence over using rationality in a discussion. No surprise there according to Ms. Rand.

Well, let's see now. There have been quite a few post that lean to the right by now. Yup, time for MM to shut this post down.
Posted by: salamanca02

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/16/04 11:16 PM

well, obviously we are never going to come to an agreement... Its prob better to agree to disagree, we all think what we think...
Hasta pronto!
Posted by: Asterault

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/17/04 06:03 AM

I found a reliable source for Gazpacho!!!

Here it is!!!
Posted by: Asterault

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/17/04 06:21 AM

Just kidding. laugh
Posted by: pim

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/17/04 06:53 AM

What's happened to: live and let live, and freedom of sp....feeling?
Chica can express, or not, all the apologies and/or embarrasment she wants, it's a personal thing. Of course, this goes without saying, that same right means all of you/us are entitled to comment on those very sentiments; however, if someone is precisely saying she's having a hard time over something, I don't think it necessary, nor very considerate, to carelessly criticize them and make remarks in such a patronizing way to make matters even worse.
I won't even get into the left-right, black or white, good or evil debate...... rolleyes
Posted by: gazpacho

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/17/04 11:35 AM

Ha Ha Asterault,

I love it. It was surely written for me. laugh Seriously though, I've read several books of this series and they are all pretty good.

Aidance,

In reference to your query as to why were not going after Saudi yet. Like my favorite computer game "Redneck Rampage" says...."One s***head at a time."
Posted by: gazpacho

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/17/04 01:11 PM

Oh Salamanca,

Have you heard the news today...Doh, it seems like they found a shell full of Sarin in Iraq...Oops, make that two shells. Maybe you should wait before you base your whole argument on a single point. The media's house of cards argument is slowly collapsing. eek

Thanks for the spelling correction Asterault.
Posted by: Asterault

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/17/04 04:53 PM

That's "Sarin," not "Serin," and Iraq couldn't have launched a fart into the wind let alone a missile to hit the States so forget about any secret Legion of Doom nerve gas bases.
Posted by: gazpacho

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/17/04 05:24 PM

Asterault,

I must agree with you on that point. I'm not the one asking for proof of weapons of mass destruction. I just love it when one of the tenets of the liberals misinformation spin machine is negated.
Posted by: salamanca02

Re: Embarrassed and Ashamed - 05/18/04 12:38 AM

Thanks for your sarcasm gazpacho! And just to let you know, I am not basing my argument on just one point, I have a lot of points... One more thing, if you believe i am being subjected to the liberalist spin media...what might you be being subjected to??? please dont tell me that what you listen and read doesnt have the same amount of spin that you think is affecting my decisions.