why join MM's message board?

It concerns me that new members such as Kevin and Cynical Wisdom seem to have joined this board for the sole purpose of sharing their political views. MM started this board to share his love of Madrid and Spain. I've been happy to read the political discussions of the past, because it gave me insight as to the varied opinions in Spain as well as the US. But all those previous posters were also individuals who showed their interest in Spain by sharing their knowledge of favorite places, hostels, transportation, food, music, etc. Many of these new posters seem only interested in second-guessing the Spanish people, and passing judgement on the Spanish and the political views of board members. I hope that their interest in Spain goes far beyond that , and embraces the love of Spanish cities, countryside, art, music and cultures.
Most of us on this board get a vicarious thrill from each person's trip to Spain, so we love to put our two cents into the planning of those trips. We are here to share our experiences as well as our opinions. We have friends and loved ones in Spain. We don't expect to agree with them all the time, but there is always a respect first.

I hope that these new posters will consider the reasons why this board was created. If they are interested in Spain as a country, a tourist destination, a place to study or live, then I hope they show it soon by their non-political posts. If not, then, I hope MM bans them from the board, regardless of which way their politics swings. There are plenty of other places on line where these people can express their opinons.

I think that the politics thread is a good idea, but not if those that post there are interested only in politics, not Spain as a whole.

Thank you again, MM.

There are not really that many places where Americans can talk directly to members of other countries. Because the opportunities are few, people who run message boards should be careful about censorship, particularly as derogatory remarks about our President are standard in all European forums and are not screened out by anybody. He was called a Nazi in another post on this board.

MM keeps going on about how this board is for Spain-lovers, not haters (I would question his patriotism - - he is American, isn't he?). That amounts to censorship. The Spanish electorate commits a collective act of gross cowardice, and betrayal of allies, and we're not allowed to comment on it? Not to mention the shockingly large number of anti-American comments from your new PM-elect.
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. I love just tapas bars, and Sangria with slices of fruit floating in it. I really do like Spanish art and music, an interest I share with Artur Rubenstein; I love Gaudi's architecture and the city of Barcelona. I have actually thought about visiting Spain in the past. I have also been pretty good friends with a Spanish exchange officer here in the States.
OK, I guess my Spain-loving is exhausted for now.

I agree with you Pat. But to talk to members of other countries requires open dialogue not outright immediate criticism. I have read through many of the recent posts here, and while I welcome them because I like to read what my compatriots´ opinion is of Spain (particularly those who do not live here), I do find some of the posts to be offensive in that their only goal is to provoke negative reactions, not open dialogue.

So, the American press/public can openly bash their European counterparts, call the French offensive names etc... however should someone dare raise an eyebrow to the way the current US administration is handling foreign affairs that is foul play? Everyone is free to express their views, as far as I am concerned. It´s just a question of doing it respectfully as aidance has suggested.

So, you are American only if you hate Spain?? Why should you question MM´s patriotism just because he expresses a love for Spain? Do you love anything? Does that have anything to do with your patriotism? Oftentimes, those who have a knowledge and understanding of other cultures can have deeper appreciation and/or at least understanding of our own (USA) culture.

Your subjective opinion of course...strongly influenced by the (right wing) press in the USA. Perhaps, because Spain´s politics were of no interest to the general USA population until the recent terrorist attacts, you were unaware that in general the Spanish population was getting fed up with previous ruling party and that prior to 3/11 the political race was pretty darn close. To accuse a country that exercised its democratic right in deciding its governing party through voting a cowardice act is a very ethnocentric view. The ruling party, whether it is PP, PSOE or any other group, must first serve the desire of its population (of Spain...NOT the USA).

I don´t think that was aidance´s point, or any other boardmember´s point. It´s a question of doing it respectfully and maturely.

Which comments, exactly, are you referring to? Ones such as his desire, without a UN mandate, to withdraw the Spanish troops from Iraq? Geeze, I know many American citizens who also wish to withdraw the American troops...does that make them anti-American as well? Or simply, anti-Iraqi war?

Glad to see that you have some sort of knowledge of the Spanish culture. I am sure if you spent more time reading some of the posts on this board, particularly by the Spanish members, you will acquire an even more profound understanding of this country.

With regards to the politics thread....I am also glad it exists and think its a good outlet for those who want to debate political issues as they relate to Spain....even if that is their "only" contribution to the board.... just like there are those who only post to get feedback on their intineraries or find out about the intricacies of visas, importing foods, best place to go shopping, what to wear, etc.

Not all of us are well versed on all of these topics, so as far as I am concerned, post where you can offer/share the most....

Collectively we can all understand and appreciate Spain better, through its many facets... not just tapas, flamenco dances and the wild nightlife of Madrid!

aidance, "thank you for your support".

And now.. going WAY off the original topic....

To fellow Ohioan Pat Burger: Nope. Nobody said that. But someone did infer that someone else said it. Guess you missed that part. Does this point really matter? Question my patriotism all you like. No problem. Start up message board of your own and waste your time discussing it if you have nothing better to do. Everyone needs a hobby, right? But the end of it is that it's really none of your business. If you don't like to read USA TODAY then don't. I don't think anyone will mind. That's your right to CHOICE. I can only claim, and you believe it if you like but if not that's fine by me too, that I do love my country and especially its people. Is loving your country the SAME as loving your government? Or not? Hmmm.... However, by traveling the world as much as I have and talking to so many people from those countries, including Spain, I have a better picture of how the world views us/USA and our government. Is "patriotism" supporting your own government at all costs? Is patriotism doing what you're told although you don't agree? Is patriotism the same as ethnocentrism or not? Patriotism is great in getting ahead in the economic world order but can also be dangerous when it comes to foreign relations.

Yes. I love my country and its people. I even get tearful at patriotic movies and scenes on TV where the US flag waves and we're triumphant. Is that how I really feel or is it what I've been "conditioned" to feel from all these Hollywood movies, TV shows, news items, all to win my support for the cause of the government?

We live in a place where we've been isolated and cloaked and "protected" since the beginning. We don't give much credit to our neighbors (Canada & Mexico) and we have always thought of Europe as that place of our distant ancestors waaaaaaaay across the ocean. I prefer to THINK globally and ACT globally. Is that so wrong? Am I cheating my own country by doing this?

Is what I do censorship? Sure! In a fashion, it absolutely IS censorship. I'm the first to admit it. And by the way, don't we think that Colin Powell's son, the new "dean" of American censorship (little known fact, by the way) hasn't been working overtime these days?

Not everyone is comfortable with the use of "The *F* Word" and so I've censored that. Can you say "The *F* Word" on 'American' TV? Nope. Why? Because it's censored. Hmmm.. interesting. Can you say the equivalent to "The *F* Word" on TV in Europe. Yup. You can. Hmmm... interesting how censorship works.... or doesn't work. Janet Jackson practically gets lynched for "accidentally" bearing her breast on national TV but in Europe you see naked women on bath soap commercials all the time and no one there flinches. So, what we (and by "we" I mean the FCC - FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION - a GOVERNMENT BODY) call "protecting the morality of our citizens" is actually a nice way of saying "we're censoring the media".

So yes. In short (or in long, as the case may have become), I love the USA. But that doesn't mean I agree with what it does or stands for all the time. Is that unpatriotic? Nah. Patriotism is such a subjective word.

And please don't call Spain's actions "a collective act of gross cowardice" or I'll censor your butt. DOH! hehehe.. Just kidding. But seriously folks, (insert drum sound effect here: ba-dum-dum) your opinion is your opinion. Keep it close to your heart and take it out and play with it every now and then. But now that you've said what you've said, don't you feel better? I hope so. Now put it to rest. The more you say it won't make some of us believe it any faster.

Finally, Pat Burger, glad to know you love some of Spain's characteristics.

Saludos, MadridMan

P.S. If you've ever seen MadridMan\'s Live Cam you'll see that in the image there's a stand holding BOTH the flags of the USA and Spain... as well as a coffee table covered with all my statements, receipts, and forms for my taxes.

Aidance,

What you described has happened before, this is a typical response whenever a political situation fans a controversy.

If you remember back when it was the U.S.'s turn to be blamed for the ills of the world, particularly the Iraqui war, there were many posters which we never heard of again, that followed the same path. At the time no one questioned their right to express their views. Views that to many was anathema, or as it is popularly referred to as U.S. Bashing.

Also, keep in mind that many Spaniards and Spain loving established members on this board did not either vote PSOE or agree with the PSOE's position, respectively. These established members wish to exchange views with the new posters, so are we going to censure these members as well? Or, only the new ones?

I think we should give these new members the same benefit to express themselves as was accorded to any new member, within the bounds set by MadridMan of decency and courteous behaviour, of course. So, with all due respect let's be tolerant to the new members, it's only fair.

Pat,

Although there will be times I disagree with MadridMan's decisions on censorship, I think he does what he considers best for the survival of this board. I totally agree with his reasoning, and support what he does, because I don't know of any other site that is run as impartially as it is here.

Yes, he does lean somewhat towards the Spanish people on the board, but after all, it is a board devoted to Madrid, and he does want Spaniards to come here and share information with us. If they are constantly bombarded by anti-Spain sentiments, they will leave, and we end up with a bunch of Americans sitting around talking about "our Spain," which is a far cry from what Spain really is.

That said, I think you can go back through the archives and find dozens... no, make that 100s of threads where the disagreements got hot and heavy, and he let them run their course until people started going over the edge. That should tell you something about how fairly he runs this place, and why there are some of us who have been around here for a long time.

In summation, this is the number one site on the internet for Madrid. You might ask yourself why. I think it's a blend of information and the ability of members to actually have debates without losing sight of the fact that we've become friends, which supercedes any of the disagreements we may have.

Wolf

Wolf wrote: Ahem... are you TRYING to make me crazy here on MadridMan's ALL SPAIN Message Board?

MadridMan,

Your words, from the front page.

It's what brought me here in the first place.

I rest my case! :p

Wolf

You'd better UNrest your case, Wolf. Yes. The website IS dedicated to Madrid. But I'd hope that the title of this message board would be clear. Plus, on the ENTRY page @ http://www.madridman.com/bbs.html and the "pass through" page @ http://www.madridman.com/bbstemp.html it is clearly stated that this is NOT a Madrid-only message board but rather and ALL SPAIN Message Board.

And maybe you're right regaring the political commentary category. I assumed there wouldn't be anything other than Spain-bashing since it's a category about Spanish Political Commentary but it stands to reason that USA-Bashing, France-Bashing, and Cuba-Bashing could find its way into threads. How about, simply, "NO-BASHING OF ANY KIND"? Has there really been much USA bashing in these threads recently? I don't recall. Maybe because I'm/we're so used to being bashed that I don't even notice it anymore. But you're right. I'll edit the notation.

Saludos, MadridMan

I can't believe some of the comments I've read on this thread! First off, to question MM's patriotism is so ludicrous that I hate to legitimize it with a response! When patriotism in the United States of America means you must have a knee jerk response to anything and everything that the administration in power says, I'm packing my bags and moving to a country that still understands what freedom and democracy mean. It is our right and duty as patriotic citizens to be informed and concerned about what decisions are made by our elected officials and to make our opinions heard. In today's world it is also vital that we understand our global neighbors and exchange opinions and concerns with them...yes, even if that means going so far as emailing messages in capital letters!!! Better we duke it on with words in a safe place like this than misunderstand each other or harbor grudges that ultimately result in the loss of lives.

This board is one of the most globally patriotic acts I can think of! MM has set something up by which we can have friends all over the world to laugh, cry, talk and yes, argue with. Logging onto this board is one of the most meaningful parts of my day! Most evenings I sit here with my café and for a moment, I feel like I'm having one of those impassioned discussions with friends in the Plaza Mayor! I don't always agree with everyone, but I love the fact that I have access to all the wonderful people who post here every day.

Madrid/Spain brought us all together. Those of us who post here regularly have a little "rincon" in our hearts decorated in yellow and red. We, for the most part, LOVE the place. Some of you are Spaniards, but many of us are "wannabes." The only other country I would want to live in is Spain! I love virtually everything about it...most of the time. But hey, I feel the same way about the US! We couldn't be emotionally upset by what goes on in Spain if we were indifferent to it, could we? But this is a board dedicated to sharing our love for Spain, and it is inappropriate to use this site to bash...and I mean things like name calling and such, not voicing different opinions. Similarly, I think it is inappropriate to bash the host country! We are all over 18, aren't we? Isn't that old enough to know how to play nice??

If you don't think MM is tolerant or open enough, open up your own board on your own dime. What he has going here is mighty special to all of us and IMHO he should be getting one of those points of light awards for promoting world peace and understanding through communication.

MadridMan,

Yes, it isn't listed as the Madrid board. I was just referring to why you started the site. Not intended as an insult, but as a pat on the back.

I totally agree with la Maestra. You deserve any accolades you can get. But that still doesn't mean I'll always agree with you. People are still allowed to have differences of opinion, and it would be a lousy world if we couldn't voice them.

Wolf

Wolf, you and many many of our other "regulars" (and many of our newer members) are the brilliant "points of light" on our message board.

Thanks, all. Saludos, MadridMan

Thank you La Maestra and thank you Wolf. Wolf, I don't often agree with you (politically), but you are right on with your posts in these threads. And yes, MM is right. You are an example of respectful political discussion.

...and Cardiff by the Sea CA, and anyone else that thinks the same, needs to get a few more skills in comprehension before trying to attack me. My first, second, and a few more were showing sympathy to the Spanish people. Hell, a few more were bashing Americans for calling the Spanish cowards. However, I DID get political when Americans on here said that Bush was to blame.

Guess you didn't see that, did you Cardiff by the Sea CA. Uh huh, didn't think so.

Sit down.

But Kevin, YOU haven't mentioned in this thread why YOU joined our message board.

MadridMan: My hat off

I think this site and this BBS is getting into one of the best embassies Spain has all over the world.

But I'll say more: The spaniards who usually read this forum have a wider understanding of USA. I can argue myself with anyone about USA with a knowledge I have acquired here.

And frankly, as a spaniard I don't care if one of a twenty does Spain bashing. There are spaniards who do just the opposite: US bashing. We should ignore posters who don't argue their opinions maturely.

My gratitude for this incredible site and its administrator.

Fernando

I just want to recall a couple of ideas of our boardmembers:
- The agresiveness of some shouldn't fade the rest of voices, specially of the spaniards which have to deal/fight with the issue of discussing complex issues with a limited (at least in my case)lenguage capabilities.

- I agree that probably the best policy is just do not answering to anybody who is not in the game of engaging others in an articulate and respectful multicultural debate.

Once the political trend is open and sometime has passed we will be able present oppinions and some facts. "La vida da tantas vueltas..." We may even see Zapatero "realigning" politics with the US..."Cosas mas raras han pasado".

Let's start relaxing and adding humour. It's not incompatible with spirit and determination....

Terrorism wins when they make change your life and tend to think that we all want the climate of "our" board.

Thank you for listening and thanks to you MM

A few observations:

1)In my opinion, this site, and this board are perhaps the BEST thing I have seen on the Internet, bar none. It is ALIVE. Alive because it fosters civilized debate and different opinions, while gently moderating the more abusive into more mannerly ways of expressing themselves, or, if necessary, banning them. This is MM's right. It is HIS site, his board. HE pays for it, doesn't ask any fees for its members.

2)I have the honor of personally knowing MM, albiet too briefly. To question his patriotism on such spurious and bigoted grounds only reflects badly on the author, not MM. It is this type of basically fascist viewpoints which have made me reluctant to return to the US until more liberal persons are in charge. If you question my patriotism, I have made my point, and I feel made it quite forcefully on another post. Sufficient to say I am ex-military and have paid my dues.

3) Much of Europe, and 95% of the Spanish are against the unilateral bully-boy tactics of the Bush administration in world affairs. The Europeans know only too well where such blind obiedience leads. Apparently many Americans from the US (people living in Canada, Mexico, Central and South America are "Americans" too, you know), including the current "president," have no knowledge of history, or geography for that matter. Just because you are from the US does not make you infallible.

4) Is Pat (?) anti-democratic? Apparently, because he cannot accept that the people of Spain ELECTED Zapatero, and not Aznar-clone Rajoy. Oh, I forgot. . . the Republicans in the US don't bother to worry about such minor details as counting votes, they just use a stacked Supreme Court to do their dirty work. Maybe the US could take a lesson in democracy from Spain!?

5) You are entitled to your views. But please, next time, engage your brain before you pound the keyboard. And remember, it is in very poor taste to stupidly insult your host!

6) As for me, I took Spiro Agnew's advice, I flat out LEFT the country, because I could not LOVE WHAT IS GOING ON IN IT. I may or may not return, but that is MY decision. Meanwhile I will work for a more pluralistic and intelligent debate and a government which represents all the people, conservative and liberal, and those in-between and on the fringes.

Martin,

Spiro Agnew? Oh! The Vice President of the United States who had to resign because he was taking bribes. I remember him well. I certainly wouldn't be taking his advice on anything under the circumstances.

You talk about fair minded, unbiased statements and then you say this in the text of your post.

Apparently you don't live by what you preach. Then you added;

I got a kick out of the reference to the "right wing" news media of the US. The funny part is, in the US, most people believe our media is "left wing oriented" I dare say not right wing.

But since some people are bashing the US in the name of not bashing, be my guest. I'll just sit back and laugh at the hypocrisy of it.

Wolf

Good question....:

This is the best Spain site on the internet, bar none. There are pretenders but they don't cut it compared to this board. You could search for months and still end up right back here - and damned glad you came back!

Wolf

Perhaps this falls under the catagory of "I disagree with everything he says, but I'll fight to the death for his right to say it."

Awesome sight, by the way. I'll be going to Spain next summer for the first time and I can already tell that this site will be an invaluable resource.