Thank you France.

Even though I have a strong "distaste" for the French worldview, I must say thank you for rescuing our fellow Americans in Africa.

Thank you France!

(I hope this is a new anti-anti-American trend)

Toddy, although I see where you're coming from, remember that one voice does not always represent the true feelings of a nation. I mean, just look at Tony Blair......tee hee......

Thank you France indeed! In the footage I saw of the rescued people, they were all saying thank you France!! Not enough was mentioned by CNN or Dan Rather etc. THANK YOU FRANCE.

We forget that they are the 2nd World Power. I guess thats good for them. Perhaps they want to keep it that way.

Maybe fourth.....at best
(but thank you anyways)

Their PR problem is that they still think they're number one, and many [vocal] Americans think they're #2 (in addition to smelling like it). Of course that's the problem with most Americans, too, [the "I'm #1" mentality].

A message for France: Since you're not #1, stop pretending like you are...and start not letting ETA terrorists walk out the front door of your prisons dressed as sheep or their siblings or whatever. :p ¡Vive le merde français! :p

CaliBasco [Who loves Spain and his French Basque relatives, but couldn't give a flying flip about most of what everyone else seems to find so charming about "la France"]

Funny, I find that mentality with the Spanish also.
It's true the US is the only Super Power left, but from a national interest philosophy, the rest of the world should thank the Americans for not fully acting on it......take some time......discuss...I have to go pay for my taxes that support protecting Europe......

But you agree to support the US military by your tax dollars.....see ya, wouldn't want to be ya.....a d i o s....

If you don't like the United States, then move to Canada.

SRedw...gonna take you to task...
you don't have to agree with everything your country does...hell i don't either...but your attitude SUCKS! obviously the attitude of a spoiled brat. no loyalty to your country...damn ingrate...maybe you'd be better off if you HAD been born somewhere else...then MAYBE you'd appreciate what you have. people risk life and limb to get here...maybe you should leave...make room for someone who wants the opportunities that you take for granted...schmuck!

SRedw,

Can you feel the love?

Wolf

Geeze Louise....ease up Big Jamón. Seeing that you are a newbie here, you may not have yet realized that we don´t slam each othere here on the board and that name calling won´t get you much respect either.

What I admire about SRedw is that at least he has the [censored] to state his true feelings, and particularly in such a public forum. Knowing him personally, I also know that he is a well informed and educated individual who has come to his conclusions through life experiences and questioning the status quo.

Unfortunately too many Americans don´t do that. Rather they go to the polls uniformed and listen to the last-minute-louie campaingers telling them to vote the ticket and pull the party lever. Believe me, I am as patriotic as the next guy, but don´t think that means blind adoration for the government.

Chica,

Then there's the other side of the issue - Don't post something that someone would get upset over. I think it's a two way street.

Also, how many Americans go to the polls unprepared? Do you have a figure for that or are you shooting from the hip? I'm afraid the bigger problem is that too many Americans "don't go to the polls," informed or not. That's based on stats I can confirm.

Wolf

Wolf -
I enjoy reading your posts as they are usually quite informative (and informed) and also humorous. However I have to answer what you said here...in my oh-so-diplomatic (and from time to time non-diplomatic) fashion.

I agree, it is a two way street. However, not posting something that someone would get upset over? That kind of leaves the court wide open don´t you think? I think it´s all subjective. 99.9% (not an exact figure, yes in this case I´m shooting from the hip) of the posts in this board express opinion. And as we all know, not everyone shares the same opinion. Rebuttals to all posts are fine, if they are done so in a respectful manner (slap my wrists if I am overstepping my bounds here MM). There have been many posts where the participants agreed to disagree. This could be one of them. I think most of the responses to SRedw´s posts were fine, but that Big Jamón really crossed the lines with his offensive post. Not only did he directly offend SRedw, but also me and a few other posters on the board (that I know because of email messages that I received stating so).

I´d be shooting from the hip if I had actually posted a figure for that Wolf. As far as I am concerned, just one voter going to the polls uninformed is too many. Hope that isn´t shooting from the hip too much. When I was living in the Philadelphia, I was a charter board member of Young America a PAC that dedicates its time and resources to educating young Philadelphians on the electoral process and responsibility. I believe strongly in taking that responsibilty seriously.

I am totally with you here Wolf. And unfortunately, I have seen those statistics.

Now, back to the original topic at hand. France anyone?

Sorry chica, but my definition of "tener [censored]" is not sRedw's lack of patriotism and loyalty to the USA, [censored] is what he obviously lacks. I am with big jamon(serrano, I hope).I guess being a political exile has made me apreciate and defend this great country that unfortunately many take for granted.

Chica,

Thanks for the input. I found the site not only interesting but non-biased. A great place for young Americans to find answers to their questions, especially in the Philadelphia area. I can definitely see why you were involved in the group. It's work is important. I do agree that there are too many "uninformed Americans" as well. The thing is, I don't believe those that aren't informed end up at the polls in great numbers.

I've been active through AARP, in getting people interested in voting. It's difficult. People just seem to want to be along for the ride, then complain about everything after they didn't vote.

Both young people and elders can sway the vote in favor of legislators and legislation through their ballots, and I just can't understand why they don't.

As for the post in question, it was a straight forward statement, and like it or not, people will react. In my case, I thought it was funny, and posted my first response. But then, I already had previous interchanges with SRedw and knew what his philosophy was. It wasn't an issue worth arguing over.

For others, it isn't that simple. Their beliefs may be stronger, and they might not want, or be able to curb their feelings. Since we've seen statements that make the ones made in this thread look like they were said by Mother Theresa, when we compare it to the issues over Basque Country, and Gypsies, I think we all have to look at what presses our own buttons, not just see what works on someone else, and call them out for it. Like I said, it's a two way street. If we don't want to take the heat, it's best we stay out of the fire.

Wolf (I may not agree with what you say, but will defend unto the death your right to say it. Even if it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up - )

One of the things that has made this board so enjoyable for such a long time has been the avoidance of personal attacks. I hope the ugly posts that have attacked a long time contributor are the last we see here. We have had many heated threads on the message board, but they have focused on differences of positions, not on sophomoric ad hominem attacks. If a new poster wishes to use the MadridMan board to throw anonymous grenades at a long time member, then he should look elsewhere.

Diplomacy goes a long way, big jamon. Use it. Flaming isn't tolerated 'round these parts.

Oh-So-VERY Sincerely, MadridMan

WOOHOO and YIPPPEEEE for MM's comment about respect.

Another shot from the hip Wolf

And by the way, many political scientists argue that the lack of voting could be attributed to the satisfaction with the status quo. Aaaand, even pollsters cannot psyco-analyze their respondents as to "why" they didn't vote. We must then look at both Psycology and Social Psycology as to the "real" reasons people don't vote. I would put my educational bet on Maslow and when people are satisfied, voting does not become a high priority.

(I believe that Spanish voting percetage has gone down, still higher than the US but DOWN)

Toddy,

Maslow's pyramid. How do you know you want lobster unless you ever ate it? How do you know you want to live in housing that isn't rat infested if you never lived where there weren't rats everywhere? Great theories from a time gone by, but let's face it, with modern technology, and people being brought into more of the world outside their own little zone each day, core needs change based on what they see others having.

You can use Maslow's theories as a guide, which I do, but not as the bible for all things political. The problem is, the people who need the most help from an imperfect society are the ones who should vote, to insure their candidates are in office. Still, they have the least percentage of voter turn out. Then the complaints start, about how badly they are treated by society.

That's why I push from the AARP aspect of getting senior citizens out to vote. The issues on the table effect us nearly as much as they do low income families. Everything we worked and saved for is at risk, when we don't make our voices heard. "When people are satisfied, they don't have a high priority for voting." True. That's a given, not a huge discovery. Sorry. We're back to core needs.

Wolf (By the way, Maslow was a UW student like me - )

But, remember, if you're a recent immigrant or a felon, I don't think you can vote (legally).
I really believe that people don't vote because it is not even close to a high priority in the United States. And remember, from a political philosophy point of view, atleast one of our forfathers thought the elite were the best to run our country and not the masses.

Group hug con yo tambien
And now back to France.
What interest does France have in delaying the Iraq vote. Why can't they accept that even California surpassed their economy last year (they barely beat us this year). I say the UN kicks them OUT of the inner circle. Orrrr maybe they can start paying for defending Europe instead of the US. jao(french laugh)

oh yeah i really stepped in it didn't i...good thing i enjoy my time spent as a provocatuer...
am i sorry for what i said?...NO WAY!
for someone to openly state their disloyalty for this country they invite abuse...
hell i HATE most of the policies of our government...but i would never consider myself disloyal to this country...NEVER! my parnets went through too much to get here...in spite of the US gov't turning its back on them...
and chica, what SRedw said about not showing any loyalty had NOTHING to do with being an informed voter...
and if my post was offensive...too bad...i find what SRedw said offensive...
..."As a minority in the US, my view is different than many whites..."
i have news for you, as a minority i found them EVEN more offensive...and that last statement extremely patronizing...
so it's time for me to ride off into the sunset...diplomacy never was one of my strong points...nor do i suffer fools gladly...
guess i'll just spend my time here in the spain- specific discussions and leave the politics alone...

shawn...
to tell you the truth our politics are probably closer we think...
my anger is strictly in the disloyalty statement...like i said my parents/relatives went through too much to get here to even entertain thoughts of disloyalty...anarchy maybe...
not liking a government's policies is no reason to be disloyal...angry and outraged, yes...but disloyalty brings up all sorts of things like treason and sedition...and in the political climate these days it could be very easy and unpleasant to be painted with that brush...
..."maybe one day we can have a discussion where anger isn't involved"...you know we probably could...i'll check my attitude at the door...
larry

..."The US does have many good things, just as it has many bad things"...
i agree and one of the best things is the ability to change it...
the comparisons you draw between loyalty and patriotism are interesting...because though my loyalty doesn't waver i don't think of myself as patriotic...no flag-waver me...too close to nationalism for my tastes...
so like i said our politics are closer than we realize...
i guess one of the big drawbacks of email is that subtlety is lost...not that my bellicosity is easier to handle face to face but email is not conversation so i tend to go overboard...and emoticons just don't cut it...

shawn...
like you i also vote in every election...and i'm very proud, yet saddened, but my record of never picking a winner...not one to hold my nose and vote lesser of 2 evils...nor sit on the sidelines and complain after the fact. tomorrow's elections scare me greatly...
definitely as a country we are very comfortable with the status quo...change and uncertainty frighten us...
though from what i gather not intrepid travelers like us...we thrive on change and uncertainty...that is what keeps me on the road...
again i'm sorry for jumping your sh*t...maybe we'll meet somewhere down that road...
larry

Shawn, Larry,

In the words of the immortal Sam McCloud (played by Dennis Weaver in the TV series); "There ya go!"

Wolf

As a flag waving patriot who loves his country and realizes not only my father's hardship in coming here but in the many USA DEATHS that have afforded the great freedom and democracy much of the world sits in today, I hope that Bush gets the majority which would cut the little huevos off those fence sitting democrats. I will vote the R's etc.

Persons attempting to find a motive in this THREAD* will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be sent to Florida to vote!

Originally said by Mark Twain, with some creative liberty

Good-bye fence sitters, LOOK OUT FRANCE!!!!!

Someone in a previous letter said "...move to Canada if you don't like the states..." Well, the bad news is that Canada is like the states. The Canadians prime directive is to try and differentiate themselfs from "americans" only beacause they are EXACTLY like them. Same culture, same food, same language (some would say what about the french? Ok, what about acadians in LA? What about the spanish?)same products, canadians dress the same, drive the same vehicles. Ok well there is one difference, you have to trade "Dunkin Donuts" for the Canadian equivalent "Tim Hortons". Where is the difference? Canada is just riding the coat-tails of the U.S. Can Canada claim to be like say.... Norway? radically different? NO (Norway has different food, language, products, history, way of life etc.)Oh by the way Canada ranks tops amongst the worlds worst poluters. Per capita Canada spews out more garbage and polution then any other country in the world, more garbage per person, uses most water per person etc.
So, to those who said "...move to Canada if you don't like the states..." If you don't like the states, you will HATE Canada. If I could leave tomorrow I would.
Ok now wait until I put my helmet on before you reply!

ELECTRACITY, well said! But it's a good thing toddy's not Canadian or he'd be all over you for being anti-patriotic. heehehe.. I'm sure toddy doesn't mind if anyone else is anti-their-own-country. (just teasing, toddy)

Well... BACK on topic. Yes. Thank you, France for rescuing our our people. Give yourselves a pat on the back.

WHERE WERE THE SMOKE DETECTORS!!!!!!!!!!
(I'm waiting for the big euro protest in the streets for this lack of humanitarian interest)

I'm sure I'll be waiting awhile for hypocracy reigns in the eu!!!!

It's been awhile since I've checked out this fine board (and I still haven't made it to my dream destination of Spain).
I couldn't resist replying to Electracity's complaint about Canada. I assume you have a Pat Buchanan poster on your wall?
My 'prime directive' is not to try and differentiate myself from my neighbours...I'm secure enough in my own little culture up here in Edmonton to know what makes my way of life and thinking unique. And I LOVE it up here. I'm not sure what you hate about Canada but you DO have the choice to leave, don't you?

Aw, my apolgies Electracity, I've just discovered that you are dwelling in Calgary...probably the most American city in Canada (I don't mean that as a bad thing - it's often refereed to as the Dallas of the North). I understand why you think that we are EXACTLY like them. Because the culture you are surrounded by is very similar to that of the USA thus tainting your outlook. i didn't really want to get involved with this, not being a heart-on-the-sleeve patriot type (a typical Canadian?) but sometimes ya just gotta speak up!

Dargus,
Hey eh, I totally agree. If you don't like the maple, try another tree.

Read it again, ok, i'll repeat it, "if I could leave tomorrow I would"(leave canada). Note that the Phrase is in the conditional.

You can all wrap yourself in your cosy canadian flag/ (Hudson Bay blanket), and cheer yourselfs on. Its unfortunate that YOU find your cheers only have resonance when they are thrown, like mud against the fabric (coat tail?) of the US. And, if I may continue the analogy, I would brush you off like the little stain that you are.

You will always be the highschool audio-video production when others are creating "Major Motion Pictures".

Allow me to quote from a European periodical:
"Why invest in it (canada), when you can invest in the real thing (the US)."

And to he who said California outperformed France economically, I say this: where was California when it had no power? How can it be that California cannot even light their own lightbulbs!!? France produces a surplus of electricity, so much in fact that is sells its surplus to many neighboring countries. I won't start mentioning their cutting edge aerospace, transportation, communications, medicine fields etc.

And to he who said "France is the 5th world power at best.." do some research....hey! I'll save you some time, they are easily in the top 3.

Oh by the way since when is Edmonton the Paris of the Great White North? The cultural capial?Funny, "White" is pivotal word. You are deep in Red Neck country. Ask the average Edmontonian / Canadian what language is spoken in say....Brazil, 99.8% will answer Spanish. canada, you can keep it.

Ps: The capial "C" has purposely been left out of canada.

Your ignorance is sooo hilarious Mr. Cowtown!!
Where do you get 'Paris of the Great White North'? Was I ever implying that Edmonton can be compared to Paris (or Calgary, haha, for that matter)?
The 'American culture' statement is a fact. Calgary is the most American in it's overall attitude. It's got a reputation as a very business-orientated/enterprise spirit 'go-get'em' type of town. By no means was that intended as criticism, it was a comment regarding your statement that we are EXACTLY (your terms) like Americans. I responded by pointing out that your personal philosophy is influenced by the culture you were brought up in. It was not a criticism.
Edmotnon a cultural capital? In Alberta it IS the cultural capital and sports capital (please get over it already...my upper-income whitecollar Calgary friends who have relocated up here will verify this for you). Calgary is the financial capital. No doubt about that.
And your 'white', 'redneck' statement says a lot about your overall attitude and ignorance in general (very Calgarian in your arrogance BTW).
"Ask the average Edmontonian / Canadian what language is spoken in say....Brazil, 99.8% will answer Spanish"
And how would most Calgarians answer? Isn't your city's big party on a rodeo theme?

"I would brush you off like the little stain that you are."

That speaks volumes about you.

Sorry to all other posters who are reading this but his drivel and ignorant arrogance indicates his maturity and is beyond pathetic.

It amazes how some people take things way out of context and reply so obnoxiously.

Have a good day!

When I mention canada, believe me I do not exclude calgary. Most of the so-called intelligent professionals that I work with would not even answer "Spanish". "My" city? No thanks I just live here (unfortunately).
Your reply is predicable. "Sports Capital" ?
Ignorant or pathetic I am not. All that had to be said can be read in my previous post. Now get back in your American made SUV and run along. "Sports Capital"

Ahh,
A pompous snob.
I always did prefer more down to earth types anyway.
I stick to my posts also.
Also, why would I drive an SUV? I prefer my 36mpg Toyota Corolla.

I really hope you fulfill your dreams and leave Canada. Life's too short to be unhappy ELECTRACITY. I still think it's all in the attitude, anyway.
And what does having to be number one all of the time have to do with happiness and fulfillment anyway? Each to their own. I am VERY happy here (but these LONG winters do get to me).

(For those who aren't aware Calgary and Edmonton have been Alberta city rivals in both overall philosophy and just good ol' brotherly/sisterly competiton since, oh say around 1900)

I herenow bid farewell to this delightful post.

Hmm,....never once mentioned France. C'est domage!

Sorry to pop up again but to all those who care, read this article in a canadian magazine.

http://www.macleans.ca/xta-doc2/2002/11/25/Cover/75850.shtml

Before I step on anyone's toes, why can I not see the posts from some members. What am I doing wrong?

Regarding the Canada posts, you people sound like you're trying to determine who can p*ss further. Take a look at some of the good things about being Canadian.

You don't have to hide your passport while travelling-everyone loves Canadians.

You have a great health care plan, although most Americans think it's going broke. Maybe so but you do have health care.

You have the second largest French speaking city in the world. Montreal is surpassed only by Paris.

Montreal could never be confused as being an American city.

I think that Canadians have a lot to be proud about. How about furnishing power all along the Eastern seaboard of the US. I think the grid goes all of the way to Florida.

But what does any of this have to do with the thread about France?

BlackDuff