ETA kills again

Posted by: Fernando

ETA kills again - 05/30/03 08:16 AM

Quote:

El Mundo. 30 de Mayo de 2003
Dos policías nacionales han muerto al estallar la bomba lapa que tenía adosada su coche en la localidad navarra de Sangüesa. Se trata de Bonifacio Martín Hernando y Julián Envit Luna. Otro agente, Ramón Rodríguez Hernández, sufre amputación de ambas piernas y se encuentra en estado muy grave. Está siendo atendido en el Hospital de Navarra. La Delegación del Gobierno había informado previamente de su fallecimiento. Además el trabajador de Telefónica Carlos Gallo ha resultado herido leve.

Los agentes formaban parte de un equipo que acudía a las zonas rurales de Navarra para facilitar la renovación del DNI. Por ello, se habían desplazado a las oficinas habilitadas de manera temporal en la Casa de la Cultura de Sagüensa.
Translation:

Quote:

El Mundo. 30th of May, 2003
Two national policemen have died when the stick-bomb attached to their car blew-up, in the town of Sangüesa in Navarre. They are Bonifacio Martín Hernando and Julián Envit Luna. Another policeman, Ramón Rodríguez Hernández, has suffered the amputation of both legs, and his health-status is in critical. He is being treated in the Navarre Hospital. The Gobernment Delegation had previously informed of his death. The Telefonica worker Carlos Gallo has also been gravely injured.

The two agents were part of a team who attended to the rural zones of Navarre, in order to give the citizens an easier way of making the ID card renovation. For that reason, they had moved temporally to the offices in the Culture House of Sangüesa.
ETA is blame of the killings. These same people are the ones that CNN keeps on calling "the basque separatist group ETA". They are nothing but a bunch of terrorists and bloody criminals who deserve to be for all they life imprisoned.

Fernando
Posted by: el viajero

Re: ETA kills again - 05/31/03 09:18 AM

I don't have a problem with CNN's wording. It focuses on the points on which I think we can all agree: they're Basque, they're a group, and Basque independence is their stated goal. And they're killing people: that is the essence of the CNN reports. Anything beyond that gets into loaded language: the line between a freedom-fighter and a terrorist is mighty slim. (Wasn't it Benjamin Franklin who observed that revolutions are always illegal in the third person and legal in the first person?)

Whatever they are, they're killing innocent people and should expect to face the consequences.
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 05/31/03 10:55 AM

With all due respect el viajero, I can't agree with your statement.

ETA does not represent the basque people, ETA is not a group, but a band, and ETA does not seek separatism, but the elimination of any other political choice and the establishment of a marxist-leninist regime of terror in the Basque Country by violent means.

To call it "Basque Separatist Group" is a cruel euphemism. What would distinguish themselves from other groups which are really basque separatist groups (as for example Eusko Alkartasuna, a legal political party).

Thanks God the US Government has seen the difference. ETA and their "political" arm Batasuna are considered by US Government and EU countries as terrorist bands. The US Government is also helping our government to erradicate this bloody criminals.

Fernando
Posted by: Booklady

Re: ETA kills again - 05/31/03 11:23 AM

Fernando, excellent explanation. I totally agree with your comment on CNN. They have been taken to task many times for the way they use language.
In this case, as you pointed out the ambivelance may lead readers to believe that all Basques who believe in a separatist Basque state are part of this killer group, and that is just not the case.
Posted by: pim

Re: ETA kills again - 05/31/03 01:35 PM

Right on Fernando;

This was being an incredibly tranquil year in this regard, with so far "only" one other killing last February,....I guess the criminals of ETA didn't want to be outstaged by the Iraqi war situation, but now that it's over, they want to claim center stage in this, horrid, nightmarish obscene scenario. mad

I wished with all my heart that both CNN, Amnesty International, and several other organizations/people would get their stories right about ETA once and for all.
Posted by: Shawn

Re: ETA kills again - 05/31/03 10:31 PM

Sad news indeed, those ETA animals continue their rabid ways. frown

I too disagree with calling them a "separtist group". It is time they call a spade a spade, ETA is a ruthless terrorist band, nothing less is correct. How would Americans feel if CNN called Al-Queda an "islamic separtist group"? I ,for one, would throw my TV out the window upon hearing such nonsense. mad

The amazing thing for me has been the attitude of PNV and it's followers. It seems they want to convert themselves into the poltical wing of ETA. PNV used to be a "Basque separtist group", but it is beginning to look more like an ally of ETA. mad

Saludos
Posted by: pim

Re: ETA kills again - 06/01/03 08:42 AM

Shawn,

A BIG THANKS to you for understanding. frown

Saludos. smile
Posted by: zorro37

Re: ETA kills again - 06/01/03 09:22 AM

Fernando, my heart goes out to the brave policemen who daily put their lives at risk against ETA. Their killings and maimings are always the cowards way. Hopefully now the French authorities are more active more of them will see the inside of prison.
El viajero's reasoning is the same as the misguided people who supported & funded the so called Irish Republican "Army" (IRA)whose organisation is disintergrating into criminal & drug running activities.
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/01/03 09:24 AM

Shawn, you have the insight of a spaniard and the objectiveness of being a forgeiner wink

I say the same as Pim: Thanks.

Thanks zorro, thank you very much.

Terrorism is terrorism everywhere. There is not political arguement which can support the assasination of a person.

We have nothing but gratitude for the countries who are helping us against these criminals, mainly France, US, Belgium and central and south-american countries.

Fernando
Posted by: Roe

Re: ETA kills again - 06/01/03 01:21 PM

Ugh, another ETA/Basque politics thread... is it really that necesary to bring it up everytime there is an attack? There are many different views on this subject and if you do a quick search you will find previous threads on this idea. Can we just move on before things turn ugly?
Posted by: Shawn

Re: ETA kills again - 06/01/03 04:46 PM

Since this is the All Spain Message Board, it would be absurd to ignore the actions of ETA. It is true that there are other threads on this subject, but the presence of other threads should only underline the importance of this issue to Spaniards and those who empathize with them. It would be a shame to have an All Spain Message Board and not be able to speak about one of the most relevant topics in Spain, terrorism.

Nobody is anti-Basque, the overwhelming majority of Basques are hardworking and honourable. I think the Basque provinces are truly incredible, and I recommend other to travel there as well.

What I find deplorable is the violence of etarras. If we were to ignore their blood lust, then we would only allow them to grow. ETA is like a cancer, if your doctor tell you that you have cancer, it is wise to treat it immediately. In the same fashion, we cannot afford to ignore the ETA-cancer.

I know in the Basque provinces that many people are frighten to speak about ETA. Spain has only been a democracy for a short time and when ETA-thugs can silence so many, it is clear that ETA is a threat to their young democracy. Democracy depends upon the free exercise of ideas, ETA's stalinist idealogy depends upon eliminating freedom.

Don't be afraid to write your feelings, if you fail to express yourself then ETA wins.

Saludos
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/03/03 11:19 AM

Amen.

Spain can't be fully understood without knowing the worst of its faces. And I think that it does no hurt if we let the members of the board what spaniards think of it.

Fernando
Posted by: CaliBasco

Re: ETA kills again - 06/03/03 01:24 PM

I just wanted to say "egun on" to all of you. Still not posting on ETA. wink Have a great day!
Posted by: Hip Priest

Re: ETA kills again - 06/04/03 02:36 PM

I have to stand up for “el viajero”. The Spanish media are making a value judgement when they refer to ETA as terrorists. It is up to them to report the facts of the situation rather than make personalised (biased) comments on what has happened. The United States and Spain have both carried out acts in recent years that I would describe as terrorist yet they receive no such epitaphs in the world media.

I am not a supporter of what ETA does but I would like to see an independent Basque country or at least an opportunity for the Basque people to choose their future in a referendum, something which is denied to them by the Spanish state. ETA/EH/Batasuna has over 100,000 supporters who are not going to go away just because Aznar wills it so. In fact Spanish intransigence towards Basque autonomy is likely to increase their numbers. Although ETA will never have a military victory, neither will they be eradicated by the Spanish security forces. This is the situation which confronted the IRA recently and some brave thinking (on all sides) has resulted in an end to the “armed struggle” though of course there is still a long way to go. This is the only future for Euskadi. It is possible that the PP govt is negotiating on the quiet with the Abertzales (like Major's govt did) but I doubt it.

What I want to know is: why doesn't the Govt allow the Basque people choose their own destiny?

NB: this is indeed a “Pandora's box” of a thread and I have neither the time nor the inclination to get into a long argument though I am sure some people will wish to respond to my points.
Posted by: pim

Re: ETA kills again - 06/04/03 04:00 PM

Yep!, you guessed right, well I do not wish to do it, that's for sure, but I feel the need to.
So now ETA is not/hasn't been for over 30 years, a terrorist group? EXCUSE ME???!!!

Really, I wished people who aren't properly informed about certain issues would refrain to comment on them so lightly. You are the one stating your opinion based on the whatever info you've gotten I don't know where, because you are clearly not very familiar with the FACTS.
In Ireland, you should be familiar with terrorism yourself; if you thought about it, you'd realize that as long as that kind of pressure, fear, etc,....exists in a certain area, elections there can never be about choosing an option freely (we're talking about every Basque enterpreneur who doesn't share ETA's or former HB's ideas being forced to pay the so-called "revolutionary tax" to stay alive or not be kidnapped (them and their family members), of course everyone involved with politics (not from HB or PNV) even of the most local kind, independent college professors, journalists, etc,....BTW, since many of these are forced to leave their Basque homeland by these inhuman living conditions everyday, if that referendum is ever to take place (the constitution would need to be changed first to allow it; right now, only nationwide referendums are constitutional/legal; naturally, ETA wouldn't like us all "'txacurras'"(=dogs)to vote on it, and what about Navarra?, and the French Basque country?), at least someone would be free to contribute with some fear-free votes by mail, then again, not even that might be completely safe eek . You should know that during the municipal elections held only two weeks ago, former HB militants were caught trying to use fake voting papers and place them in the ballot boxes rolleyes .
99% of the Spaniards I know, and I know tons! would tell you that a referendum amongst the Basques would be ideal, we would love for it to happen tomorrow, IF the results were to be any reliable.
Are you at all familiar with the Basque region's unique and special autonomy status within the Spanish nation? Do you know that their regional government enjoys the most "autonomous regime" in the whole of Europe by far?

Frankly, I FEEL DEEPLY INSULTED (never offended, because it's simply not possible), when anyone dares to remotely compare this type of behaviour to with what Mr. Aznar or any of the Presidents we've had for the past 30 years have had to undertake in order to try to stop this unilateral war.

Wolf, PLEASE, before you respond to this last paragraph, I beg you to do a research on what happened to the people involved in the one and only case of what's called 'guerra sucia' on part of the government that's ever been found and/or proven, the Lasa and Zabala case. It's not fair to be only aware of part of a story....

It's perfectly OK to be a Nationalist, it's just like any other option, it's something which basically has got to do with a person's narrow/open-mindness in my view; but the minute one starts killing people in the name of those independent/nationalistic ideas, get serious, that person is a criminal.
People, GET THIS once and for all, nobody but "romantic-freedom-fighter-ETA" is killing Basque people, they are so sick they keep killing, whomever they can, but specially "their own people" and what Spain wants is to try to stop that, it's that simple. mad

Arrggh, this is so frustrating! frown
Posted by: Wolf

Re: ETA kills again - 06/04/03 04:17 PM

PIM,

I can't argue with what you said. We do have to look at both sides of every issue. We've all come a long way in recognizing the fact that ETA itself "does not represent the majority of Basques."

We just have to remember that the question of where the Basque stand politically, and the way the Madrid government treats the issue, creates the environment where ETA can continue to claim to represent the Basques - and thrive within the turmoil that exists.

Wolf
Posted by: Hip Priest

Re: ETA kills again - 06/04/03 04:51 PM

Maybe I will get around to a fuller response if I have the time but for the moment I will say this:

PIM, why do you think I am not "properly informed about certain issues" or "not very familiar with the FACTS". I have lived for six years in the Spanish state and have as much a right to comment as you or anyone else. If my facts are so wrong can you please point out the errors in my original post?

I believe the Spanish people and state are afraid of allowing euskadi a referendum.

If you think el caso Lasa/Zabala is the only case of guerra sucia then 1. I feel really sorry for you and 2. I suggest you read "Dirty War Clean Hands" by Paddy Woodworth. This deliberate ignorance suggests to me that you are blind to the reality.
Posted by: pim

Re: ETA kills again - 06/04/03 05:44 PM

Well, anyone who "a estas alturas!' questions the Spanish BRAVE media (all its more relevant/outspoken members' lives are threatened) calling ETA terrorists, is clearly, and without a doubt, either blind or worse, choosing to be blind/misinformed to the fact of this matter.
Go ahead and do feel sorry for me and for all Spaniards, you should, we have to endure living in a wonderful place that is however constantly threatened by a bunch of sickos, because that's very, very sad. And, allow me to kindly decline your gentle invitation to read something written by someone called Patrick Woodworth, when I already read much more than I'd wish to on this, have a 'navarra' grandmother and my father's last name is Arrondo, I've lived with the ETA conflict all my life and I don't have that much time in my hands either.
I'm saying the Lasa and Zabala case IS a fact, ETA's two killings last weekend ARE a fact, and any other rumour, legend, gossip, story,…is just a theory/possibility until proven a reality, right? It's just sad that some people let the latter poison their minds to incredible extents.

Buenas noches everyone,

P.S.: Since you're comparing here, ask yourself why while there are tons of movies and even tv series that deal, in one way or the other, with the IRA conflict, there are less than half a dozen that dare deal with the ETA one.
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/04/03 06:46 PM

eek

Excuse me, but I'm pretty amazed by your statements Hip Priest...

ETA members are terrorists. Terrorism is the succession of violent acts made in order to make people be terrified. Therefore, when an ETA member kills a journalist, a councilmen, a local policeman, a national policeman, a soldier, a pregnant mother, a kid, a hairdresser, a cooker, a chofeur, a senator, a judge (all of these is true) or any other human being in order to terrify spaniards and force the spanish government to recognize an independent Basque Country (not to say the ridicolous claim over the French Department of the Western Pyrenees and Navarre) they are committing terrorism acts. Not to speak about coarsion, extorsion, sabotages, bribery, menaces, kidnapping and breaking of many more laws and Human Rights.

As for the suposed political conflict: The Basque Country has the most developed autonomy perhaps of all the world. In fact, they are more autonomous than a german federal lander, a US federal state, or even than Puerto Rico itself. Basques voted the referendum for the 1978 Constitution, and they voted in their majority (more than 75%) for it (as the rest of Spain).

As for justifying their terrorism with peregrine arguments such as "Hey, if they were independent and the government was more sensible with them they would stop killing..." let me make you a question. If I kick you, blame on you for not being kind with me?

Therefore we should infere that anyone who is enough stupid to take a pistol and kill someone has some kind of right? Should USA negotiate with Osama Ben Laden? Perhaps Spain should negotiate the inmediate independence of the Basque Country and Navarre, leaving that majority of basques and navarros who don't want it be ruled by a stalinist government.

And last but not least, the comparation between IRA and ETA is a bad joke...
IRA members are terrorists of course, and have no right to kill anyone, but remember that Northern Ireland had no autonomy until some years ago, no parlament, the "catholics" were not allowed to be policemen and the royal army was present in every part of northern irish life.

Fernando
Posted by: aine

Re: ETA kills again - 06/05/03 04:28 AM

Posted by: Wolf

Re: ETA kills again - 06/05/03 09:23 AM

To those who are interested, here's an interesting link to Woodworth's views, based on his interviews and investigations related to the ETA crisis in Spain, and France. For those who are time challenged, and can't take the time to read his book, it's a viable option.

http://www.csuohio.edu/polisci/courses/PSC422/basque%20terror.htm

It's well worth reading, and taking less than 30 minutes of your time to do so may shed light on the views that many "outsiders" see when they consider the issue.

Rest assured, Mr. Woodworth at no time has offered his support to either ETA, or the Madrid government, through what he has to say. He simply states facts - as he sees them. Whether or not we agree or disagree with him doesn't matter. The fact is, his statements are what the general public see.

Wolf
Posted by: Hip Priest

Re: ETA kills again - 06/05/03 04:19 PM

I guess I will have to find the time to reply as my post seems to have got a few of you typing…

Aine, I know there are many differences between the situation in the north of Ireland and in Euskadi. What I am comparing is the conflict resolution employed in Ireland and how all the parties concerned in Spain can learn from it.

I am not saying ETA is right. In my very first post I stated that I do not agree with what they do. In fact I believe that they are harming the process of Basque independence. I am well aware of the targets of their campaign over the years. I am saying that the media should not use the term “terrorist”. It is not up to them to decide. Do they refer to Nelson Mandela or Gerry Adams as “former terrorists”? And if not, why not? Incidentally I wasn't in Spain at the time but how did TVE etc refer to the Sandinistas? I presume, according to TVE etc, Eta were “terrorists” under the Franco dictatorship too.

PIM, do you really believe that GAL didn't exist and it was only a case of a few guardia civil taking the law into their own hands? In reality it was an ongoing campaign of murder (20+ deaths) orchestrated by the Spanish government, police and army. PIM asks how I can compare this to ETA's “war”. I don't know, is machine-gunning a bar with women & children inside not bad enough for you? How can you live in Spain and not be aware of what happened? I am flabbergasted. Or did French low-life just decide to attack Basque refugees off their own bat? I'm afraid I have to suggest once more that you make room for Paddy Woodworth's “Dirty War, Clean Hands” where you will find mountains of evidence about the “socialist” government's terrorist campaign in the Basque country (French and Spanish). Incidentally I understand the pressures they (PSOE) were under both from a belligerent military and murderous ETA campaign but going down the “guerra sucia” road was morally wrong and also counter-productive.

Fernando, I know that Euskadi has a LOT of autonomous power. So? It is not enough for many. What PNV and others want is full independence, or at least the opportunity to have a referendum on the subject. Is that too much to ask for? Speaking of a referendum, I can't believe you mentioned the 1978 Constitution. You know (or you should do) that that constitution was REJECTED by the Basque people. Also your suggestion that Basque nationalists' claim over parts of France and Navarra is “ridiculous” is itself ridiculous.

PS Why are there so many films and programmes about the IRA?? Who cares? It has nothing to do with this thread. What obscure point are you trying to make?

PPS By the way Catholics COULD join the RUC, UDR etc it just wasn't encouraged either by the armed forces or by the Republican community
Posted by: Roe

Re: ETA kills again - 06/05/03 06:04 PM

This has been argued here before. I doubt anyone will change their mind from what they read here, as it seems most people have already made a decision about it. Now that everyone knows how futile it is, please continue...
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/05/03 06:17 PM

With all due respect Hip Priest, media must call things for what they are, not for euphemisms. ETA are terrorists, as it is recognized by the US, the EU, and dozens of countries and organizations. ETA uses violence in order to seed people with terror. No more no less. If you think the opposite that's your problem.

Let me tell you something about GAL: It is state's terrorism, the ones who were part of it were terrorists, as well as the socialist and UCD ministers who instigated it. They should be still in prison (remember that those policemen who were part of GAL are still in prison). There is no argument that can justify a killing, not even that the supposed victims were ETA members. ETA members must be imprisoned by legal means, not killed (as they do).

Quote:
Fernando, I know that Euskadi has a LOT of autonomous power. So? It is not enough for many. What PNV and others want is full independence, or at least the opportunity to have a referendum on the subject. Is that too much to ask for?
Quote:
What I want to know is: why doesn’t the Govt allow the Basque people choose their own destiny?
Is it not contradictory? First you sayed that the government (I mean the spanish one, it seems that for some people it doesn't mind if France is a centralist country) doesn't allow basques to choose their own destiny, then you accept that they have a lot of autonomous power...

Quote:
Speaking of a referendum, I can’t believe you mentioned the 1978 Constitution. You know (or you should do) that that constitution was REJECTED by the Basque people.
These are official results of the referendum:
74,60% of the basques voted for the 1978 Constitution, 94,60% of the basque electors voted for the Autonomy Statute of 1979. In both documents it is stated that the unique entity authorized to make a referendum is the Spanish Parlament and that the Basque Country is part of Spain. In 1979 Navarre made another referendum on which navarros voted in their majority to be a separate Autonomy. Therefore, I tend to agree now (not before) with Pim in that you are missinformed...

Quote:
Also your suggestion that Basque nationalists’ claim over parts of France and Navarra is “ridiculous” is itself ridiculous.
Thanks. But the point is that the political presence of basque nationalist in both Navarre and the french basque deparments is minimum. Moreover, they have never been part of a same entity in all their history. Navarre was a separate kingdom until 1493, the basque provinces have been always part, first of the Castilian Kingdom, then of Spain. Unless you go back to prerroman times, but claiming that they have to be now a separate country due to historical reasons is ridiculous (as I stated before). If some of the basques want to be an independent state, it is ok with me, as long as they seek it by political means and respecting those who decide to stay part of Spain or France (all those territories they are obsesed to anexionate: Navarre, Condado de Treviño, the french basque territories or even Alava).

Anyway, you are free to want an independent Basque Country as a romantic fight for freedom, but please, try to be more sensitive. When I remember how two national policemen were blown off the other day, and then I read things like media should not call the killers terrorists I get deeply sick. Think what you would feel if an unionist killed an irish, or what an american would feel if an islamist killed a countryman. Then what you would feel is someone sayed that the killers are not terrorists, and that they had a valid reason to kill. I guess you wouldn't be as calm as Pim or myself are.

Fernando
Posted by: Quintos233

Re: ETA kills again - 06/14/03 05:54 PM

ETA is of course a bad organization. But since Spains long dictatorship. Every one seems to be angered so now you got your Anarchists,Spanish Nationalists,ETA communist idealist,socialist and the list goes on and on. The only one that has a united view of Spain and is actually proud of Spain seems to be Spanish Nationalist and the some socialist. Anarchist and communists seem to want to see Spain break apart. Spain has been ignored by the western democrazies throughout Francos dictator ship the US did not give a single penny to Spain to help it rebuild or become stable while all the other European nations were being helped with their economy and had stable democratic governments Spain was completely ignored and left to rote. During the Spanish Civil War the entire world wached Spain destroy her self and hoping it didn't happen to them. So what are we going to do now that people know Spain actually exist. Who knows they seem so shocked by the barbaric bull fighting and wonder why their is so much political grafity but dont they dont they understand that for the last 30 or so years Spain has been a dictator ship with no ties to the out side world?....
Posted by: Cristobo Carrín

Re: ETA kills again - 06/16/03 03:49 PM

When an “armed group” is fighting a war against another one, trying to conquer a country, they are an army. Their basic feature is quite obvious: an army, at any moment during the “conflict”, seizes the power over a certain territory. They RULE there, and they aim at conquering all the country.
A terrorist group, on the other hand, never tries to defeat military the enemy: their basic aim is to bring down their moral, they want to discourage, to disappoint the “occupation army”.
Terrorism is simply a form of psycological war, which can exist along with conventional war, as it happened with partisans under Nazi occupation in many European countries.
Of course, ETA is a terrorist group, they never dreamed about defeating and kicking the Spanish army out of “Euskal Herria”. All they wanted is to provoke certain reactions in the Spanish government and Spanish people.
At first they thought that terrorist attacks would push Spaniards to a violent breakdown against Basque civilians, and thus bring out a general uprising of Basques. It is obvious their strategy failed, and now they...well, who knows what the heck are they trying to achieve now?
On the other hand, it is funny that ETA, at first, didn`t refuse at all to define themselves as terrorists. Read Federico Krutwig and you will see that I am no lying on this. He strongly supported terrorism as a valid form of fight, and wrote that no mercy should be held to the enemy: he said torture against Spanish soldiers was OK whenever Basque warriors had the chance. Today, ETA activists seem quite aware that this sort of opinions are not too popular.
It is obvious Spanish media are strongly biased in this question, they have censored many facts along the years so that Spaniards don`t have a balanced view on the Basque issue. For instance, why do they always (ALWAYS!!!) refer to ETA as “La Banda Terrorista ETA”? Do they fear that listeners mistook with “The pipers band ETA?” Obviously, Spanish journalist are following some agenda on this issue.
I regard myself as anti-Spanish, I don`t like the post-Franquist regime, I spit at the current monarchy and the 1978 Constitucion, I would love to see a fair referendum in the Basque country or anywhere people asked for it (in Catalonia or in Murcia, if locals asked for it). However, I hate any ETA activist as much as the worst of Franquist torturers.
Posted by: Quintos233

Re: ETA kills again - 06/17/03 02:51 AM

Tu puedes acabar con ETA pena de muerte!
Posted by: Espe3

Re: ETA kills again - 06/17/03 10:02 AM

Hip Priest:
How do you expect people under threat for their lives 'choose' to become independent if an election was held? Besides, ETA kills alot- makes alot of noise, but if you ask Vasco's most of them don't want an independent state. It doesn't even really make sense for them to become independent any more than it makes sense for Galicia, Catalunia, Andalucia, Murcia, Castilla etc. to become independent. Its like saying Florida wants to seperate from the rest of the United States, or New York or Mississippi-

Its the union of the provences that makes Spain Spain. Each provence has their own laws and governments (similiar to the US) and then have to answer to a unified government for certain things-its not like Spain tells the Pais Vasco how to live! ETA however, DOES dictate to a large extent how they live. People who live there want to be free to live and enjoy their lives- without threat- to be able to speak their minds and have different views from that of what ETA dictates- but they can't in fear of having the wrong person overhear them in a bar and get threatened or yet worse, attacked later as a consequence. But yes, let's hold an election so ETA can implement a murderous regime- let's give them that last push they need to really have all the power in their possession to surpress the people of the Pais Vasco once and for all. Are you crazy?!

Let's keep in mind something else, the name of the region is the Pais Vasco- like the region of Galicia or Catalunia has their names- and their own language and some different customs- but its not another country- the name itself is a bit misleading in that sense- but all of these pieces make up Spain. What would be left if all of the provinces were to become independent? Spain wouldn't exist and there would be a mess of individual countries existing on the iberian peninsula- what would all of that lead to? Think about it, because if one went, the rest would follow- and all for a MINORITY- now THAT'S not very democratic, is it?

One more thing- do you really think that ETA would stop there? ETA didn't start wanting independence for the Pais Vacso- their primary objective back in the day was to 'off' Franco's successor. They succeded and they changed their objective- as by this point they had power they didn't want to give up and they've since kept on changing their purpose until they setteled on trying to set free the Pais Vasco- why? My opinion is because they figure it won't ever happen, so they can keep killing with an excuse.

Violence won't get anywhere. There are a couple of other places in the world that deal with the same issues- does it ever go anywhere? No. People just die- most of them innocent. What purpose does that hold?
Posted by: el viajero

Re: ETA kills again - 06/17/03 10:39 AM

If the Spanish government really believed that there was little grassroots support for Basque independence, they would have allowed the separatist candidates to stay on the ballots in last month's elections, as they would have constituted no threat whatsoever. Whether or not such grassroots support exists is anyone's guess (have there been public-opinion polls about this?), but obviously the national government is afraid that a substantial percentage of Basque voters would support the successors to Batasuna.
Posted by: Quintos233

Re: ETA kills again - 06/17/03 07:46 PM

I believe the best way to stop ETA terriosm is to completely ignore it. For example if a car bomb goes of in Madrid the media sould not be allowed to send the images to all of Spain simple because that is what ETA wants also to completely ignore all political braches that are attached to ETA and to ignore all Basque calls for independence if their aren't going to get it why keep their hopes up. Over all I think this plan would help not stop the problem. In my opinion ETA terriost sould recieve the death penality.
Posted by: Espe3

Re: ETA kills again - 06/17/03 07:48 PM

Quintos- I second that Feed them to the sharks!

El viajero- I sincerely doubt that. But they're not going to recognize terrorist acts by doing such an election either.
Posted by: aine

Re: ETA kills again - 06/18/03 04:25 AM

I'm not questioning what the government is trying to do by banning parties such as Batasuna but think perhaps that they are going the wrong way about it. By effectively taking way the vote of what is a minority but still a substantial amount of people you leave them unrepresented, when people feel alienated and unable to achieve their political aspirations through political means where do they look to? Also the idea of not showing eta related news on the tv- could be counterproductive, for example whilst the censoring of Gerry Adams voice on tv had a great effect in making the English public believe that he was the devil incarnate, such acts only serve to push moderates into the hands of hardiners and extremists. The Spanish government needs to look at not winning not just the war against eta terrorism but be careful of the way they are represented. They must deal with those responsible for acts of terrorism definitely! but in a humane and fair way, other wise they do not distinguish themselves from those whom they are punishing. Use of the death penalty (taking this with a grain of salt),hit squads, censorship, taking away of political representation are not the way to do this.

Sorry if i've rambled, but just what i was thinkin- feel free to correct me!
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/18/03 11:41 AM

Eusko Alkartasuna is a left independentist party, with one difference over Batasuna: They seek it by political means (no matter how wrong I think they are, they have chosen a legitimate way to seek what they believe in).

Arnaldo Otegi, Batasuna's speaker, and one of the seven Batasuna members in the Basque Country Parlament. He has been condemned for killing almost half a dozen people.

Jose Urrutikoetxea, another of the seven Batasuna members. He was jailed for more than a dozen killings, and Batasuna chief board presented him to elections. He occupied his post. When justice claim him to attend a trial for killing another 20 people (common people who were shoping at big stores in Barcelona, including varios kids) in a bomb blast, he fleed.

Most Batasuna public posts are occupied by persons who have been either condemned for assasinations, financing of ETA, street terrorism, and so on.

You may keep on saying that what is being illegalized here are ideas, but let me remember you some facts:

-There are more than three thousand legal political parties in Spain, some dozens are basque left independentists.

-In 25 years of democracy not a single party has been illegalized.

-Germany or France have illegalized in the recent years more than twenty political parties each, mostly extreme-righists and extreme-leftists accused of xenophobia, nazism, or any other anti-democratic ideology.

When a party doesn't respect human life, democracy, the Constitution, the laws and even coarse people to vote in a way, that party must not have a place in our democracy.

Fernando
Posted by: fmiketheman

Re: ETA kills again - 06/18/03 05:50 PM

hey everybody

herri batasuna is a political party that is much in favor with etas political policy of killing and bombing for seeking their end which is full basque independence.i bet most of you all know that.but i must add something some of you all might not be imformed about.its about the fact that the batasuna political party has 20% of votes from the basque voters.

also espe said somewhere on this board that basque independence is something not a political end for the general basque population.what ive heard from the basque is quite contrary to that myth.most of the basque poulation is against the illegality imposed on herri batasuna by the central spanish goverment. if you go to the basque country youll find out what i mean by all this.they say it themselves.or maybe you know this but dont want to admit it.who knows.

hope i dont offend anybody with this telling out the facts/my opinion.
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/18/03 06:50 PM

With all dure respect, I think you are wrong about the results. I have obtained this information from the Basque Government webpage (last autonomous elections):

EAJ/PNV-EA: 42,72%
PP: 23,12%
PSE-EE/PSOE: 17,90%
EH: 10,12%
EB-IU: 5,58%
Others: 0,56%

EH (Eurkal Herritarrok) is the same party as Batasuna, and as you can see, it obtained something more than a 10%.

It is true than in the Basque Country the majority of the people (according polls) is against the illegalization of Batasuna (about 60%, the opposite in the rest of Spain, where 93% is for the illegalization).

For me what is important is that the illegalization was done with all due respect to the political rights of the people to state their ideas. To illegalize a party the three powers must aprove it (a majority of the Parlament, the Supreme Court, and the Government). The reason were not the ideas, but crimes typified in the penal code (as financing terrorism or having terrorists in their ranks).

Fernando
Posted by: fmiketheman

Re: ETA kills again - 06/19/03 08:19 AM

hey everybody

fernando

sorry about that

according to the date of the data, the voting results for herri batasuna that i stated were from the year 2002.
according to the 2003 data you stated it shows that this has changed for the better of course.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/19/03 09:12 AM

Has it? HB/EH or whatever, is, or should be a party allowed to take part in the Basque Government basically because it is just that, a party, and that's what parties are for.

The last count of "nulos" votes (HB asked their people to vote "nulo" was about 130.000+. However many people didn't vote nulo but preferred to do "useful vote" and vote PNV/EA.

So, I don't think they have diminished. And according to my friends back home, they are increasing after the repression of the Spanish state against the basque press, political parties, youngsters, and so on. They are following Bush's policy to blame on terrorism anybody who does not submit to their commands. Now they have begun to do the same with PNV/EA which are an extremely peaceful party, but they don't dare to prohibite it (yet) because it is their only speaker in the nationalist part of the basque society (about 60%), and that would lead to an explosive siyuation.

But they are accusind them and they'll send their leaders to jail. Not so different from Cuba or other Banan Republics, is it?

And I wouldn't say that "fortunately less people are voting them". There is a strong bias hidden withing it. Imagine saying "fortunately less people are voting the democrats". that would showw that you are completely in the Republicans' side, so, would you be impartial?
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/19/03 11:44 AM

Quote:
...repression of the Spanish state against the basque press, political parties, youngsters, and so on
Excuse me? Please explain a little further...

Quote:
But they are accusind them and they'll send their leaders to jail. Not so different from Cuba or other Banan Republics, is it?
eek
It doesn't surprise me your statement as you may guess, but let me remind you that "they" aren't accused of nothing. "He" (the president of the basque parlament) is accused of not complying with a resolution of the spanish Supreme Court to dissolve the group of Batasuna parlamentaries (that means they are not a group, but they can still be parlamentaries).

Quote:
And I wouldn't say that "fortunately less people are voting them". There is a strong bias hidden withing it. Imagine saying "fortunately less people are voting the democrats". that would showw that you are completely in the Republicans' side, so, would you be impartial?
I think that batasuna is not comparable to democrats in USA, don't you think? I can't see members of the Democrat Party financing terrorist bands, killing political opposers by shooting them or blowing their car away, coarsing people to vote them and so on...

Fernando
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/19/03 02:14 PM

Quote:
...repression of the Spanish state against the basque press, political parties, youngsters, and so on
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excuse me? Please explain a little further
No, I'am not excusing you. Your long-time posturing about the Basque Country in this forum has no excuse.

Press: Closure of two newspapers vinculated to a political party and to ... er ... to nothing, an independent basque culture one.

Political parties: Herri Batasuna, Batasuna, Euskal Herritarrok, Hasi, Jarrai, ..., and they are menacing to dissolve the BAsque Parliament, and want to sue the president for not doing what the Supreme COurt told him to do, which is something he is unable to do.

They (the Spanish Government and parties) are pushing their instruments Courts -with composition pacted with judges nominated by PSOE and PP-, press -controlled by either party,
PP prosecutors (including PP member General Prosecutor), and so on. An overwhelming force.

The president of the Basque Parliament cannot comply with that resolution because he has not the power to do it. By law this can only be don through voting - Or can the judge order all the B.Parliament what they have to vote? They voted opposite, so, ...

A judge can order you to walk to the moon or give somebody 1.000 million dollars or discover the cure for the cancer, but that doesn't mean you can do it.

You can't compare Democrats to Batasunos? Well, I have heard many times compare Republicans or just Americans with many things worse, after Afghanistan and specially Irak.

This may be unfair, as the misinformed (through poisonous biased captive press) opinion of the spanish about Batasuna definitely is.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/19/03 02:20 PM

Ah! Youngsters. There are always youngsters who are prone to make disturbs in cities, and can be pretty dangerous, but they are not terrorists yet. Maybe some will be and some others no, but treating them wrong and sending them to jail accused of terrorism is unfair and also helps them to move the opposite way to the desired, towards radicalism.

I am not saying they shouldn't be punished, they must, and severely, but for the faults they did, not for terrorism.

About the Banana Republic thing, I have never seen in any developed country (except recently in the USA with the antiterrorism crusade) have such a lost of civil rights of the people. Well, ..., there is other worse and for longer time, another government some of whose citizens are slave of the rest: Israel, the new nazis.
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/19/03 03:17 PM

You don't excuse me? Oh, what a pitty... Believe me that it won't make me sleep even a minute less.

Anyway, just to clarify some of your (of course unbiased, unpoissonous, and impartial) statements, let me remember that:

1) The two closed newspapers (Egin and Egunkaria) were closed becuase their managers were found guilty of using the business resources to finance ETA. Let me remember also that the staffs of both rotatives have founded another two newspapers in sustitution of the two closed.

2) Herri Batasuna changed its name to Batasuna, then to Euskal Herritarrok, then to Sozialista Abertzaleak. They are the same party (with almost the same members, and the same properties). Jarrai was not a political party, but the Herri Batasuna's (illegal) youngsters association whose objective was to make street terrorism (burning ATM, public telephones and attacking basque policemen with molotov cocktails). Hasi was not a political party, but an association founded by Herri Batasuna to finance itself abroad, and which was found guilty to drive funds to ETA (by judge Garzón).

2) Judges are not nominated by political parties, they achieve that status by passing a public contest. The only ones nominated by the Government are the State's Attorney and a Board of Judges (Consejo General del Poder Judicial).

3) The President of the Basque Parlament is the only one who can dissolve a political group as is in the Basque Parlament. As the delegate of the sovereignity of the basque electors he has been asked to dissolve the political group by the Supreme Court (which can't execute the resolution by itself, but order him execute). He has not comply with a legal sentence, and that is legally punished by law.

4) The poor youngsters you are referring to are nothing but terrorists. Perhaps for you to burn alive two policemen or destroy public property as a way to infund terror is another thing, but for me is not.

Fernando
Posted by: MadridMan

Re: ETA kills again - 06/19/03 03:42 PM

Is ANYONE ELSE having a not-so-odd-sensation of Deja Vu? rolleyes
Posted by: Zzeus11

Re: ETA kills again - 06/19/03 05:05 PM

It is Deja Vu all over again! Yogi Berra
Posted by: Cristobo Carrín

Re: ETA kills again - 06/20/03 04:31 AM

This damned "deja vu", or rather BOREDOM, is quite frustrating.
I am sick of the Basque issue. Year after year, Spanish media spit their propaganda about evil separatists and noble constitutionalist leaders. Oh, please!!!! It is all so stupid...
I wonder what happens with my countrymen. People just believe what they are told, like if the voice of God had whispered from above "behold, Arzalluz bad, Aznar good". That`s the most common reaction amidst Asturians, but in Madrid it is even worse, there are many people there who actually HATE Basques. It is a shame the way TV and radio stations have prompted hate among two peoples which have no reason to hate each other.
I think Atutxa is a hero, one of the few heroes I have seen in my life. He defied ETA for years, he suffered numberless death threats, and now...now he might even go to prison for not obeying the Spanish government.
My reasoning is quite simple:
1-Basques don`t feel Spanish
2-They have clearly supported in the polls the independence process that Ibarretxe has been unfolding these latter years.
3-Therefore, the only logical response it is to set a date for conversations about independence. Any other option would mean a violent imposition against a peaceful nation (the Basque one).
I hope one day we, Asturians, follow their example.
Posted by: Castiza

Re: ETA kills again - 06/20/03 08:29 AM

And I'm a pure bred castilian, don't feel Spanish, don't feel identified by Spanish stereotypes and also want Castille to be freed.

Castilla is not Spain. ¡Vivan los Comuneros! cool

P.D: There's so much nonsense in calling a gang of young **** not terrorists. What are we suppose to do when they try to burn policemen alive? Sending them home with candies? Come on!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/20/03 09:02 AM

Right on, Cristobo!

I have read you a lot, and I support your position in most issues. And it is a sophisticated and documented one, as proved before. These three steps are the logical ones to follow, in our case, and in any case where people wants to secede.

Fernando:

I think that it is clear by now, no matter how you say it, that several parties and newspapers have been forbidden, even if they have sometimes and with greater difficulties been able to regain part of their former reach, in an uncertain legal status (because the'll soon be closed again probably). You also forgot o speak about Hasi, and there are others whose name I can't remember now. By the way, in Jarrai maybe people who belong to batasuna and others that do not, but it had a legal different personality (when it existed).

I have to leave now. I'll edit this message later to speak about judges (what you say, simply, is false, as usual) and Basque Parliament.

EDIT:

As you can see here: Page of the law magazine "iuris lex (spanish)" , the regulations of the Basque Parliament give the power to dissolve poltical groups of parlamentaries only to the Parliament through a votation . As you can see (if you want too, because who doesn't want, doesn't see), the Supreme Court is asking the President of the BP for something he ins't legally entitled to do, and which he has no powers to do.

It's like sueing Aznar for not making a law, which he cannot do, because in the spanish parliament, just as in the basque one, it's the Parliament who makes laws, not the President. Ask your dad. rolleyes laugh

Besides, if the judicial power can make the parlamentaries vote one or other way, they are invading the legislative power competences, which is most dangerous for democracy (provided it still exists in here, besides of the outside mask).

About judges:

The composition of Constiturional Court, Supreme Court and others is pacted openly, and everybody who reads newspapers know this in Spain, by the major parties within the whole of the spanish Parliament, this means the spanish-nationalist parties a.k.a. "españolistas" PP and PSOE, and their members are selected between the proposed by them in halfs aproximately. Either you don't read or you are lying as usual.

Fernando and Castiza:

I have never heard about any policemen burnt by people from Jarrai. I asked at work yesterday, and my mates didn't know of that. Made a search today in the net ... and guess ... nothing!

Fernando:

Again, newspapers closed because they gave money to ETA, parties who did the same ... What about the proofs? Until now, nothing has really been proved. A couple of circunstancial evidences, and a Court that is strongly anti-sedecion is enough in this banana republic. If I was ashamed to belong to this country (not nation) before, now, I cannot stand it anymore, it's an overwhelming shame, Spain behaves more like Morocco regarding respect to law, that's why the french say "Africa begins in the Pyrennees".

Another point of view on the BC, tortures, imprisonments that go against law, ... (in English, long)

Spain is undergoing deep investigation by European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (CPT) .

You prefer photos? Text in English - Not to show to kids! Another
For those who want los of aditional info on this shame.

I haven't been able to find any documentation on Jarrai legal form (if any), so I won't discuss that anymore, however, how can you explain that it was legally dissolved when it didn't legally exist?

There are others, like AuB, Haika, Segi, Ekin, KAS, besides Egin, Gara, ..., gestoras Pro-amnistía (an ONG trying to help tortured isolated prisoners)...

I am not discussing AGAIN statistics. You probably don't want to count the 130.000 + nule votes of those supporting Batasuna who did not give their vote to PNV/EA, that is probably the difference.
Posted by: Roe

Re: ETA kills again - 06/20/03 09:32 AM

We´ve all got opinions and they´re not going to get changed by what is said here. Write to a newspaper or some proper avenue to share your thoughts about this if your feelings are so strong. Let´s just lets leave this topic alone for now....
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/20/03 10:38 AM

Just two things:

Basques want independence? No. 40-50% want independence, not all of them.

Ignacio, please keep yourself informed. Jarrai was an allegal (with no juridic status) organization. And I did say what Hasi was.

Fernando
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/21/03 01:24 PM

Roe:

Who are you, a judge too, who can tell me wether I can post or not depending on your point of view?

I know you are not changing your mind, and I just don't care, since you have lived in the BC for some months and you seem to have learnt nothing. You know,? I do not only write for you.

And about leaving this topic, if you are disgusted by reading me, then, how must I be reading a d*mmned post with all kind of lies everytime ETA acts?

I am fed up of Fernando and Pim's attitude, and they are always the ones who start this polemis topics once a month. I have been sufferin this. Why don't you tell them to stop posting on this?

Now, nationalist people in the basque country have been driven together like never before. Remember Berthold Bretch poem? This is a variation on the BC, made by a nationalist who saw them close Egin (newspaper with a nationalist left look), and now complains because they have closed Egunkaria (apolitic), and repents not having enforced Egin's defence:

revisitando a brecht
Primero vinieron y encarcelaron a la Mesa Nacional de HB. Naturalmente, no protesté, por- que yo no era de ese partido, y una voz interior me decía que se lo tenía bien merecido.

Luego vinieron y se negaron a acercar los presos. Tampoco protesté, porque no tengo ningún amigo o familiar en la cárcel, e incluso sugerí que si estaban tan lejos era porque algo habrían hecho.

Luego cerraron "Egin". Tampoco protesté, porque ese periódico no era el mío y siempre me había parecido un panfleto para ultras abertzales.

Más tarde vinieron y organizaron una campaña macroperiodística para relacionar al PNV con ETA. Tampoco protesté, porque el péndulo que aplica ese partido (a la una, abertzale; a la una y media, autonomista; a las dos, español) será efectivo pero no es ético.

Luego aventaron la gran falacia de que 200.000 vascos se han exiliado a causa de la limpieza étnica. Tampoco protesté, porque me siento muy cercano a todas esas personas que no pueden tomarse un café en Euskadi sin escolta, y me pareció una exageración explicable por la situación que sufren.

Luego ilegalizaron Batasuna. Tampoco protesté, porque yo nunca votaré a Batasuna y, por tanto, mis derechos como elector quedaban intactos.

Pero el jueves cerraron "Egunkaria". Entonces sí que protesté, porque éste era mi perió- dico, y entonces me acordé también del encarcelamientode la Mesa Nacional de HB, y protesté; me acordé de los presos, y protesté; me acordé del cierre de "Egin", y protesté; me acordé de la campaña contra el PNV, y protesté; me acordé de la falacia de los 200.000 exiliados de Euskadi por la limpieza étnica, y protest*; me acordé de la ilegalización de Batasuna, y protesté y protesté y protesté... pero ya era tarde, muy tarde. Alberto Basterretxea - Loiu
Posted by: Booklady

Re: ETA kills again - 06/21/03 02:51 PM

With all due respect to everyone's opinion, the worst thing a society can do is censor public dialogue. While this board is not a "country" it does represent a microcosm of a society of users.
I believe that if users choose to discuss issues that are important to them they may do so.
Posted by: Shawn

Re: ETA kills again - 06/21/03 04:52 PM

Castiza,

Perhaps the names of Padilla, Maldonado, and Bravo should now be associated with your own name. Luckily for you, Carlos V is no longer ruling Spain. I would hate to read in El Norte de Castilla that you had met a similar fate. frown

You are correct, Castilla is not really part of Spain, but rather an occupied territory. A territory that has been exploited by non-castillan monarchs for 500 years, it is time to declare independence from Spain. The corrupting influences of the Kingdoms of Aragón, León, and Navarra must be removed from Castillian soil! :p laugh

¡Vivan los Comuneros y Castiza!
laugh

P.S.: Kale Baroke(sp?) should be treated like a rat problem. mad They are street terrorists, just like the Crypts and the Bloods in large American cities, this vermin needs to be caught and prevented from breeding.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/21/03 06:28 PM

Sure, when we want to make it easy to destroy with maximum crudelity our political opposers, or those who bother us, we use this kind of language. It helps to make it impersonal what we are meaning.

Like the palestinian are murders and the israelis just "eliminate" or "clear" Hamas leaders.

I wonder what's the name Hitler gave jews, rats? pigs?

Thx. Booklady
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/21/03 10:39 PM

Rats! Mmmm, Ignacio that has made me remembered that time when a basque nationalist called explicitly spaniards rats and a poorer race than the basques, very apropiate you mentioned it.

Now you are the one who think that everybody is posting just for you to read and anger, don't you think? It seems that for you any who doesn't share your opinion is automaticly a fascist and a extreme-roghist. I post what I think because I want to share my opinions with other members. Try not to make things personal.

Edurne Uriarte (University Professor)
Francisco Llera (University Professor)
Jose María Portillo (University Professor)
Mikel Azurmendi (University Professor)
Jon Juaristi (Cervantes Institute Director)
Imanol Larzábal(Singer)
Aurelio Arteta (University Professor)
Begoña García (Secondary Education Teacher)
Conchita Bujedo (Secondary Education Teacher)
José Antonio Binaburo (Secondary Education Teacher)
Raúl Guerra Garrido (Writer)
Aurora Intxausti (El País' Journalist)
Carmen Gurrutxaga (Writer and Journalist)
Germán Yanke (El Mundo's Journalist)
José María Calleja (ETB's Journalist)
Juan Palomo (Antena 3 Journalist)
Alfredo González (Alavese Union Party Councilman)
Alvaro Esparza (Socialist Party Councilman)
Begoña Hernani (Judge)
Carlos Rozas (Judge)
...
More names

Those persons have in common at least three things: They are basques, they have suffered a personal attack by ETA (or street terrorists) or have been menaced, and they have exiled from the Basque Country.

That is "the falacy" of the 200,000 exiled basques.

Fernando
Posted by: Shawn

Re: ETA kills again - 06/22/03 01:05 AM

Thanks Fernando for the list!

It is sad that so many people have had to leave their homeland due to threats and intimidation from ETA/Batasuna. The democratic loving world hopes that these victims can one day return to their native region.

The forum is very fortunate to have your input on the ETA/Batasuna problem.

Saludos

P.S. Your English is excellent. I have one suggestion, 'threats' sounds more natural than 'menaces'. I only wished I had the courage to write in Spanish as well and as often as you do in English.
Posted by: Quintos233

Re: ETA kills again - 06/22/03 01:54 AM

ETA is a criminal organization that disturbs the life of every one living in Spain. They have killed and will continue to kill for what they believe is a legit purpose we Spaniards are not going to be able to stop ETA the Basque people must decide when they have had enough and unite against ETA. ETA with out supporters and new recruits will cease to exist. When the Basque people are ready for peace they will make it.It seems as right now they don't want it. Sorry Basque people but its true frown . Although many Basque do not support ETA many do. We can go on and on but I believe this is the solid core of the problem.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/22/03 07:21 AM

Fernando:

Once again, I can't recall your quote on a supposed "basque nationalist", although, of course, I can't possibly know what all basque nationalists ever say, the same way I can't about every spanish nationalist.

Do not confuse anger and rage (that sometimes your lies provoke in me) with emotivity. It's not easy to write calmly when you see your homeland and your people insulted once and again and lies written in front of an international audience. Are you paid for this? By who?

I mean, you do a real campaign, with that work you take to restart this polemic issue and bring it to debate again and again everytime ETA acts. This cannot be casual.

About your "saying what you think", I am pretty sure of. What I doubt is wether you "think what you say". Please, don't play the "moderate Fernando" now, because the old MM members know well the "exalted insulting Fernando". I can refresh your memory with links if you want. laugh Or better..., go on , I prefer the moderate style, but don't YOU try to give me classes on education, please, I find it funny. laugh laugh laugh

About wether everyone who oppose me is a fascist, please, don't put words in my mouth. I can say by myself when some posturing is extreme-rightist in my opinion or not. I still haven't called anybody fascists yet. Please, share yor imaginary insults with yourself only.

I went through your list, and I can say that there are not hundreds of thousands, but a couple of dozens. Still, it's a pity that anybody has to leave his land, but we don't know wether these people had to leave or wanted to leave.

One can feel uncomfortable because he has treasoned his people or because people know he is a footman of the police and the spanish government, and feel ashamed to look at his town folks in the face, but that doesn't mean he is menaced anyway.

Anyway, there are people menaced , I never said the opposite. But they are maybe hundreds, not hundreds of thousands (See the difference?).

And there is people menaced everywhere and in every side of a war. That's why me and other people in this forum are for a pacific, politic solution. Basically allow people decide, but the Spanish governments, all of them, haven't even evaluated publically the possibility, although the attitudes of the rightist right wing parties (Aznar faction in PP) have denied the possibility strongly in public, like an anathema, while moderate left parties (PSOE) have privetely had some negotiations that gave no results, and Izquierda Unida (spanish socialist-eurocommunist party) supports and is member of the Basque Governmet.

Remember Franco's motto: "Una, Grande, Libre".

Since we cannot be "Big" and cannot be "Free" (and much less under Franco in despite of his motto), his inheritors at the PP, try at least to preserve the "Unity". rolleyes

Also, who can say which were these people's reason to leave, in despite of what they/you say: I live in Madrid because of my work, but I could easily say I am in exile because of menaces if I was paid enough or I had political reasons for that. Am I exiled? wink

Quintos:

I am usually opposite in opinion to yours, but in this case, I must partially agree: The war will not cease without a political agreement. Ever.

Because most basques support independence and a substantial minority support violent actions since everything else has proven and proves today to be a closed way.

There are only three ways:

- The basques unite against ETA and independence .
- The basques unite for independence.
- The spanish people thinks it over and allows referendum for independence in the BC. That is, if the controlled by the government media lead them that way, as usual.

So, after all, this is a matter of political posturing for the spanish nationalist parties, and they will never do that without pressure. I am for political pressure, but not everybody is.
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/22/03 11:19 AM

Let me document just a bit my lies smile

Quote:
By the way, I simply loath the way you speak about the Basque Country. I can hardly imagine more lies and right-winged fascist one-sided biased inputs.
Ignacio dixit
One night in Bilbao

As for the basque nationalist, I have made a little research (I don't also remember which basque nationalist says every barbarity about Spain or spaniards): He was Carlos Caballero, a PNV member of the Basque Parlament.

And Ignacio please, stop making it personal. I'm not going to fall the temptation again and go back to that style you liked so much wink

Anyway, since I'm doing a real campaign of lies, could you tell me which my lies are? Who knows, perhaps I'm a CNI agent (the spanish CIA) and I'm trying to missinform everyone!!! laugh

Shawn: Thank you very much for your post.

Fernando
Posted by: Cristobo Carrín

Re: ETA kills again - 06/22/03 01:53 PM

I just wanted to point out one interesting thing, many non-Basques have protested, these latter months, against the measures that have been taken by the Spanish...government? Parliament? courts? (in Spain it is difficult to tell one from another, apparently the three branches of power always agree totally).
In http://www.lne.es you can find an interesting article (in Spanish) about the illegalization of Batasuna. The author is not any follower of the Abertzale Left, but the lecturer of "Derecho Constitucional" [Constitutional law] at Oviedo University. And the newspaper is not leftist at all, on the contrary they are fanatically pro-Spanish on all issues.
The title of the essay is "Crónica de una ilegalización anunciada" And you can read it on the "hemeroteca" section, 25th of august 2002.
As to the exiled Basques, they are neither more right or wrong for being victims of ETA. Meliton Manzanas was an ETA victim, but he was still a torturer and a Gestapo collaborator. Fernando Savater lives in a constant threat, but his ideas still stink.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/22/03 09:27 PM

Fernando:

FYI: It is not the same to say that some messages are fascists inputs than saying that the poster is a fascist, as your dad can tell you. The first is an opinion on a text, the second about a person, and insults are personal, whereas opinions on texts or comments of any kind are not, because they refer to a different subject: the text, as lawyers know very well.

As for the opinion of that person called Carlos Caballero, who is so important that neither you nor me knew his name before ... rolleyes
..." according to my research, it seems that you have, as usual modified subtly the words and contaxt to make it fit in your text. I would call it a lie:

Quote:
a basque nationalist called explicitly spaniards rats and a poorer race than the basques,
Fernando dixit.

It is not the same what you imply:

- Spanish are rats

than what he actually said:

- somebody was a spanish rat.

In this case, we are talking of an specific person. Please, don't try to confound people, like with that flase horror story of the policemen burnt alive.

About making it personal:

-When you lie about my people, I consider it personal.

-You are making it aas personal as I am.

- I'll make it as personal as I feel like.

About your lies, onu is upstairs in this very message, for others, re-read my other ones, and you can go also to older post about one or two years ago, I don't have time to refute all that you have said in the time passed since I left, but in this very thread, I have uncovered several.

Quote:
Who knows, perhaps I'm a CNI agent (the spanish CIA) and I'm trying to missinform everyone!!!
First time we agree. Who knows! Maybe CNI, maybe Falange, maybe Fuerza Nueva, who knows?

Cristobo:

Couldn't agree more. The president of the party in the power/president of the Government controls the legislative chambers, as it was proved in the Iraki war debates, and everywhen else. The higher tribunals composition is pacted between the two major parties, and there is no other interpretation of law that those two's.

The rest of the spanish (leftists, nationalists, or whatever) are defenceless because those judges are more politicians than judges.

How is it possible that Jimenez de Parga is still President of the Constitutional Court after speaking on how the Catalonians looked down on Andalusians who were much more civilized and washed much more often 700 years ago?

No matter wether this is true or not, it is unacceptable that this guy is taking decisions about wether laws by the catalonian and basque grovernment are according to the Constitution, with such prejudices. But there he is.
He is one of the guys who are into illegalizing parties and closing newspapers with so called proofs.

I cannot find the article with the link, the hemeroteca, and the date. Could you reproduce it here, or summarize or post the most important features?

Thx.
Posted by: Quintos233

Re: ETA kills again - 06/23/03 12:32 AM

I just hope one day our Basque bretheren will join us. Ignacio I believe your views as Basque are biases and Fernandos views as a madrileno are also biased but the Spaniards aren't the ones planting bombs the Basque are. The Basque are the ones screaming here not the falange, nationalist or any of those fairly inactive organizations. The Basque are a rich culture and it is sadening to wach them our borthers manteling this dreaded piece of history on their pedestal.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/23/03 03:15 AM

What bias is in this?:

Many basques (I believe the majority) want to decide by themselves wether to separate from Spain or not.

The spanish state says (we'll see in the future) through the governments that have been until now, that that is not negociable, and that they won't even talk on this.

ETA kills, Guardia civil kills, ETA kidnaps, Guardia civil kidnaps (sends to jail), BUT ETA doesn't torture, unless you want to consider torture the bad living conditons of some kidnapped due to the difficulty of hiding them, Guardia civil does. Besides, ETA is a terrorist organisation, and you know they are going to use terrorist methods since they are outlaws, whereas one should think police should use other methods. Remember that it has been proves that the police paid for years mercenaries to murder terrorists? What kind of police is this? It's always worse the State terrorism, it's more coward because the do the same with more means and impunity.

By the way, the basque are NOT planting bombs. Only some are: ETA members. Not Batasuna, not Egin newspaper, not ikastolasa (basque schools), not basque ONGs who care for the imprisoned, not basque culture, not the basque, as the media are trying to show in this razzia agaist the basque culture and people.
Posted by: Quintos233

Re: ETA kills again - 06/23/03 03:20 AM

Guardia Civil is a police force not a terriost organization they are their to serve the Spanish state they have duty and honor. They only kill when it is necesary the same cannot be said about ETA they are a terriost organization don't compare the leet Guardia Civil to ETA again.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/23/03 06:30 AM

I'll compare them as many times as I want.

Besides, may I remember you that General manager Roldán of the Guardia Civil robbed lots of money? or that recently a former major of the GC has killed the new commander of his quarter and another high officer and injured others because he was being relagated for uncovering corrution? Or that funds of the GC are involved with the Catholic Church in the GESCARTERA financial scandal? Or that minister Barrionuevo and other high members of government have been to jail because of taking the "reserved funds" that are said were used to pay the killers? Or that (although courts will never uncover it) newspapers and witnesses proved that in Intxaurrondo headquarters there was torture? And that GC general of Intxaurrondo was condecorated in spite of this?

And about Policia Nacional, ..., shall we speak about chief inspector Amedo and inspector Dominguez and the others who were found guilty of paying portuguese killers for ETA members (and some innocents by the way), which was uncovered only because he was fool enough to pay with his official Visa after eating with them in Portugal.

And so on...

Please, don't you try to make they look like angels, they are not, and among the police, the GC is much worse than any other.
Posted by: Castiza

Re: ETA kills again - 06/23/03 10:39 AM

Shawn, thanks for your support! Luckily Villalar battle was long, long ago and Carlos I passed away like more than 400 years ago, so I don't think they'll come after me... laugh Viva Castilla!

Like it or not, San Sebastian born Fernando Sabater, with his ethic books, is one of the most important Spanish philosophers nowadays. His ideas may stink to many but that's not a reason to kill anyone, is it?. What's more, when Franco died he was one to stand for the legalization of the comunist party and also ETA surroundings. What has made him change his mind about the latter? It's quite obvious now that has been proved how mafia style and terror spreading Eta group is.

May I also remind that a terrorist is not only the one who pulls the trigger but also those who finance and order it? Then, for some it seems that sending those to jail a few years is unfair eek rolleyes when in lots of other countries they could be sentenced to death or live in prison. So, sending a judged criminal to jail is equal to a kidnapping made by terrorist?. Of course, terrorist don't torture they're only trying to find a save place for the kidnapped... eek eek You know when Ortega Lara (who was kidnapped and kept in a less than 5 square meters place for more than a year) was liberated by the "evil" security forces terrorists said he had been taken care: he even had in his little room a poster of La Concha beach snowed...What a treat!!! What's next... Hitler was a great missunderstood???
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/23/03 10:39 AM

The falangista from Fuerza Nueva here making some comments on the last posts:

1st) Egin was found guilty of financing ETA, as well as Egunkaria (which also was found guilty of acting as a post for ETA). Both newspapers were closed, and two new ones were opened as their successors (Gara and Berri). It seems the spanish fascists forgot to close them.

2nd) The highest judicial institution in Spain is the Judicial Power General Council (Consejo General del Poder Judicial), which is an autonomous institution whose members are designated by the Parlament (althought they don't answer to it). At least one of its members is proposed by PNV (while others are proposed by CiU - catalonian nationalists, IU - communists, or PSOE - socialists). Perhaps our fascist friends overlooked that...

3rd) So, to summarize Ignacio's opinion, ETA just torture a little bit, while the spanish state is a torturer for having killers in jail.




The man with his lost sight, as you perfectly know, is called Jose Antonio Ortega Lara. He was kept 532 days by ETA in a room of 2x3x2 meters underground. ETA alleged that he was a torturer for working on a prison in which there were ETA members.

4th) Let me condemn (as I always have done in this board) the horrible crimes commited by some members of Guardia Civil and the Government during the 80's. It was state's terrorism, and under the name of democracy, they killed and tortured not only ETA members but also civilians. They are as terrorists as ETA ones, and they deserve nothing but being in prison (as most of them are). The unique legitimate way to fight ETA is with the laws, not descending to their level.

Ignacio, by the way, I have never seen any similar condemn of ETA from you, just vague justifications of why they commit their crimes...

Fernando
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/23/03 12:44 PM

Castiza:

Fernando Savater is just another philosopher, like thousands that come out of the universities every year. The fact that he is every other day in the TV is due to being one of the few basque "intelectuals" who support central power. After all, whose are the media in Spain?

Sure a terrorist is too the one who gives the command to kill. However it is not a terrorist that who is glad that somebody died or can't blame the killer for doing it. There is a difference. That's the difference the media have made the spanish blind to.

And, according to your definition (I agree), soldiers who kill and officers who give the orders, and even the president of countries who make wars are terrorists.

After all, isn't it all about killing by surprise or from the back or bomb somebody who cannot defend?

What is kidnapping?:

As I don't have an english dictionary so deep in definitions, I´ll translate spanish Real Academia definition of equivalent "secuestrar":

secuestrar.
(Del lat. sequestrāre).
1. tr. Retener indebidamente a una persona para exigir dinero por su rescate, o para otros fines.

1. Hold back unfairly a person to claim for money for his random or for other reasons.

The key word is unfairly , which is not illegally . It doesn't speak of Law but of Justice. The difference is important because for many basque people, the spanish government has as few legitimacy as ETA has.

So, if either side of the fighters in this war can send the others to jail, why some are kidnapping and the others are imprisoned? Sure ones have been trialled legally , but were they trialled fairly?

I was thinking about Ortega Lara when writing about ETA not torturing unless you count deficient conditions of imprisonment for the kidnapped. In fact, it could only be this case because this is the only case I know of such conditions.

I am not going to deny the responsability of ETA for what they did, but what I am saying is that they did this once and not as an specific torture but as a result of the difficulty of hiding the jail.

Fernando:

1- Gara and Berri have been re-created, but the State has taken the former newspapers money, their goods, and closed them, also leaving unemployed people and sending people to jail without consistent proofs (like in latinoamerica, after all, they are not so different, that's where they learnt their customs).

If you think that closing a newspaper, making it reduce its number of possible papers edited to the half or third, sending workers to jail, dispersing the rest, confiscating workshops, and so on without democratic garantees is OK, then go to Falange and sign their papers.

By the way, everyone is found here guilty of something evil, but, where are evidences? Anyway, it seems spanish higher courts don't need them.

- 2 A proof (in spanish) on the pacts for higher courts including also Poder Judicial. ..... Anotther example of this shame, this time in economy newspaper Expansión. Funny? but sad also. ..... Another .

As you can also see in this (spanish only, sorry), the composition in 2002 of the Poder Judicial were 20 judges, 11 PP, 7 PSOE, 1 IU, 1 CiU. That is, PP and PSOE have 18 out of 20, do you know how much is a majority? - The half plus one. They give out a couple of them in an attempt to make it look diverse, but they don't need to, because it's the party in the power in Congress and Senate the one who decides, and the only reason they give some important part to the other big spanish party (in this case PSOE) is because pacts that will give them the same when they are not in the power. Stinks! Smelly Poder Judicial

3- Please don't summarize nothing I say, specially if you are going to put words I didn't say in my mouth again.

I was not referring to jails as torture, as you very well know, although some could be, I am speaking of physical and psicologycal torture of the kind Banana Republics do their citizens (again, look at the photos I posted!, that's what I am talking about.

He has lost sight. OK. Have you also recorded the health problems ETA members and innocents charged with terrorism, who are imprisoned have acquired? They are persons too, you know?

4- first time we completely agree, Cheers!

You have never seen any condemn of mine? Well, you'll see it as soon as they keep on fighting after they are actually able to fight for their goals through pacific means. If they go on, then I will condemn them, not before. First real democracy (means "power of the people"), then there will be no other justified way than through "legal" means.
Posted by: Cristobo Carrín

Re: ETA kills again - 06/23/03 01:41 PM

Here it comes the article, I think It will give some insights on this issue.
Crónica de una ilegalización anunciada

Hace aún pocos meses, cuando el borrador de la ley de Partidos hizo su aparición, el Gobierno y el PP proclamaron a los cuatro vientos que habían dado con la fórmula para ilegalizar de inmediato a HB. El que quisiera apuntarse, ahí estaba el documento; los que no, quedarían retratados, cuando menos, como débiles contra el terrorismo. El texto era un disparate jurídico, porque prescindía de las más elementales garantías establecidas en la Constitución.
Para el Gobierno y el PP el proyecto de ley era respetuoso con la Constitución y, en consecuencia, no iban a mover una coma del borrador. Sin embargo, tuvieron que enmendar el texto para adecentarlo y, de este modo, conseguir la aprobación de una gran parte de las Cortes. En realidad, se cambió la letra, pero la idea básica seguía fija en la intención de sus mentores: ilegalizar de inmediato Batasuna. El primer atentado sangriento de ETA fue suficiente para poner fecha a un escrito que ya estaba redactado antes de aprobarse la ley (recuerden que tanto Aznar como Arenas proclamaban que al día siguiente de aprobada la ley estamparían su firma en la demanda de ilegalización). Se aseguró en los debates de la ley, y así consta en su preámbulo, que no se pretendía ilegalizar ideas, sino exclusivamente desterrar actividades no democráticas hechas con reiteración. La no condena por dirigentes de HB del atentado se considera que encaja en esa actuación y se pone en marcha el procedimiento de ilegalización.
Como ya se ha dicho tantas veces, el no expresar la condena es a todas luces el ejercicio de la libertad de expresión que, en sentido negativo, comprende también el derecho a guardar silencio. Podrá ser esa actitud social y políticamente reprobable, pero aunque lo sea para el 99 por 100 de la población no deja de ser ejercicio de un derecho. Sancionar la actividad consistente en manifestar una idea u opinión es censurar lo que uno piensa, no lo que uno hace; más aún cuando lo que se sanciona es lo que no se hace, o sea, guardar un silencio interpretado como cómplice. Que HB pueda ser ilegalizada por «mala conducta» causa sonrojo; deducir de ello connivencia con el terrorismo es jurídicamente insostenible y políticamente peligroso. El PNV podría correr igual suerte si se interpretan con el mismo rigor las habituales declaraciones tremendistas de Arzallus, pero también el PSOE, que debería estar ilegalizado por pagar con sus fondos a los abogados de Vera y Barrionuevo, involucrados en el GAL y despedirlos como héroes a su entrada en prisión, y el propio PP, por negarse a condenar la guerra civil o por justificar Fraga la guerra sucia…
Se dirá con razón que no se puede meter a todos en el mismo saco y que las diferencias entre HB y los demás son abismales (aunque algunos dirigentes del PP dirán que no son tan abismales entre el PNV y Batasuna). Pero precisamente por ello, es un error querer suprimir una patología del sistema a través de una norma que en su ambigüedad puede convertir al adversario político en enemigo a eliminar, sobre todo cuando puede llegar a interpretarse que el nacionalismo soberanista (léase PNV, BNG, ERC e incluso CiU) es una patología del sistema. Para patologías como la ejemplificada por HB está el Código Penal. Y es que este grupo político hace tiempo que tenía que estar declarado asociación criminal y sus dirigentes condenados por delitos varios (apología del terrorismo, amenazas, desórdenes públicos, colaboración con banda armada, etcétera). La sentencia contra la Mesa de HB tenía que haber dado ese fruto e incomprensiblemente el TS no extrajo esa consecuencia, pues la decisión del TC no afectaba a esta conclusión. Ahora Garzón parece que ha puesto manos a la obra en serio y no con la frivolidad de la que muchas veces ha hecho gala instruyendo sumarios. Si HB forma parte del entramado de ETA, no será por no condenar los atentados o por llamar «presos políticos» a los etarras condenados, sino por una actividad delictiva judicialmente demostrable. Las últimas amenazas vertidas por Otegui no debieran ser el argumento número veinticuatro para aplicar la ley de Partidos, sino uno más para querellarse contra los dirigentes de HB y declarar delictiva a esta organización. Lo incomprensible y lacerante es que a estas alturas no se haya demostrado que Batasuna es una asociación criminal; lo ridículo es liquidar a HB porque no reza el rosario.
El camino emprendido con la ley de Partidos es contradictorio. De un lado se dice que instar a la ilegalización de un partido es una decisión de carácter político y que hay que valorar el momento y su conveniencia, y que ahora ha llegado ese momento. De otro, se afirma que hay una obligación jurídica de aplicar la ley, ya que Batasuna ha incurrido en alguno de los supuestos de ilegalización. Ahora bien, si es una decisión política, unos partidos del arco parlamentario están acordando cuándo prescindir de un adversario político. Si es una obligación jurídica de las Cortes demandar la ilegalización de HB, no se entiende por qué se somete a votación el cumplir o no la ley. De lo contradictorio se pasa a lo vergonzoso cuando para sumar adeptos a la causa el Gobierno chantajea al PNV con la negociación del traspaso de competencias que ya corresponden según el Estatuto al País Vasco. Es el mundo al revés: HB aparece como víctima, el PNV parece razonable y el Gobierno se muestra como un trilero.
Las contradicciones e incoherencias continúan. Por ejemplo, la ilegalización de HB no provocará el cese de los concejales y diputados elegidos en sus listas. La ley no lo prevé; así pues, seguirán representando políticamente a HB, los medios de comunicación seguirán refiriéndose al «concejal X de HB» y, por supuesto, continuarán dichos representantes sin condenar los atentados. Formalmente se va a ilegalizar HB sobre todo porque sus concejales en actos oficiales del Ayuntamiento no suscriben la condena de atentados; sin embargo, se estarán imputando al partido HB actos de unos concejales que jurídicamente no son realizados en representación del partido, sino como representantes del pueblo del municipio. (Debido a esta representación, los concejales no cesan por el hecho de que se ilegalice el partido que promovió su candidatura). Así, los concejales autores de la no condena de los atentados siguen en sus puestos, pero el partido al que pertenecen y al que se le imputan políticamente tales actos es ilegalizado.
Si las Cortes consideran que es contrario a los principios democráticos que un partido ­que es una asociación privada y no un órgano del Estado- no condene los atentados terroristas y que es por ello ilegalizable, con mayor razón habría que adoptar medidas semejantes con aquellos que son órganos del Estado. Esto no sólo comporta eliminar de un plumazo a todos los actuales concejales y diputados de HB y disolver aquellos ayuntamientos en los que son mayoría absoluta. También habría que aplicar iguales criterios a los funcionarios. Aquellos que no condenen los atentados o que simpaticen con HB, tendrían que ser inhabilitados. El juramento o promesa de la Constitución podrá así hallar una peligrosa continuidad en la obligación funcionarial de portar un lazo azul contra el terrorismo o de salir a la plaza a guardar un minuto de silencio tras un atentado.
La garantía de que democráticamente se hacen bien las cosas no está en contar con el respaldo del 90 por 100 de la población o del 98 por 100 de los grupos parlamentarios. Si así fuera, el linchamiento sería una decisión ultrademocrática. Batasuna debe ser ilegalizada penalmente porque sus actuaciones son desde hace ya bastante tiempo delictivas y es responsabilidad del Gobierno, del Ministerio Fiscal de él dependiente y de los propios jueces el que esta ilegalización aún no se haya producido. El Parlamento no debería actuar de fiscal, función que le reserva la Constitución sólo para acusar al Gobierno de alta traición o de delitos contra la seguridad del Estado. Si se ha optado por esta vía política es porque electoralmente es muy rentable y será usada para ponerse medallas el PP y alguna mención especial el PSOE, y para descalificar a los críticos como ambiguos o cómplices con el terrorismo. La vía penal al único que da protagonismo es a Garzón, un peligro si en un futuro decide asomar de nuevo la cabeza a la política.
Ilegalizada Batasuna por un procedimiento acorde con la Constitución, no cabe argumentar en contra que es una decisión antidemocrática porque se trata de un partido que representa al 10 por 100 de la población o porque el 60 por 100 del pueblo vasco esté en contra de la medida. De igual modo que el linchamiento a manos de una multitud no es una actuación democrática, tampoco cabe admitir en el juego democrático a un partido criminal por el hecho de que cuente directa o indirectamente con un apoyo social relevante. Sería tanto como justificar en nombre de la democracia la inevitabilidad de que haya víctimas para que no queden fuera de juego matones con proyecto político.
Francisco J. Bastida
Posted by: CaliBasco

Re: ETA kills again - 06/23/03 01:43 PM

Still lurking...and being entertained.

Two things: Quintos: Do your research. The Guardia Civil/Government has admitted to hiring mercenaries to hunt and kill ETA operants. I recently read and article that stated that other European goverments are looking at what the Spanish government did to ETA in the 80s [mercenary anti-terrorist terrorists] as a model of what not to do to combat terrorism.

Apparently sinking to that level doesn't serve you well if you intend to play the "moral high ground" card in the future [see present PP practice]. I believe the article was in the Guardian [UK].

And Shawn: Lleón Solo! wink
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/23/03 02:30 PM

Thanks Cristobo.

Quote:
Como ya se ha dicho tantas veces, el no expresar la condena es a todas luces el ejercicio de la libertad de expresión que, en sentido negativo, comprende también el derecho a guardar silencio. Podrá ser esa actitud social y políticamente reprobable, pero aunque lo sea para el 99 por 100 de la población no deja de ser ejercicio de un derecho
A person or a party that does not condemn something has the right to deny doing it.

Quote:
Sancionar la actividad consistente en manifestar una idea u opinión es censurar lo que uno piensa, no lo que uno hace
Prohibiting ideas is not precisely democratic.

Quote:
La garantía de que democráticamente se hacen bien las cosas no está en contar con el respaldo del 90 por 100 de la población o del 98 por 100 de los grupos parlamentarios. Si así fuera, el linchamiento sería una decisión ultrademocrática.
Just because 99 people want to lynch the 100th person, that doesn't mean it's democratic. There are rights that no party should scrap no matter how many parlamentaries it has.

Quote:
También habría que aplicar iguales criterios a los funcionarios. Aquellos que no condenen los atentados o que simpaticen con HB, tendrían que ser inhabilitados. El juramento o promesa de la Constitución podrá así hallar una peligrosa continuidad en la obligación funcionarial de portar un lazo azul contra el terrorismo o de salir a la plaza a guardar un minuto de silencio tras un atentado.
Civil servants should have to be compulsed to condemn something they don't want to or be fired?Doesn't this smell like the former communist countries where you had to publically be in favour of all the Party wanted ... or else? Lack of fredom, isn't it?

I am pointing these because, as there were only weak circumstancial (and probably false or irrelevant) proofs in most of those processes, the media have bombed again and again the spanish masses with the idea that political party Batasuna (now PNV also)= terrorists ETA, and because of this, people just didn't care of the obvious lack of fairness of the trials. They deserved it!- they seem to think.

Now, many others are beginning to be worried, beginnig by PNV (moderate nationalists). This razzia will never end until no nationalist can freely speak (else go to jail for ...they'll look for a suitable terrorist crime). frown

Hello Cali!
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/23/03 04:13 PM

It seems that the only reason for the illegalization of Batasuna is their negative to condemn ETA (I will talk about it tomorrow) while you are deliberately concealing that it was illegalized for other, much graver reasons, as using public dependencies (such as Councils) to make homages to terrorists, giving public money to ETA jailed members or financing ETA.

Fernando
Posted by: Quintos233

Re: ETA kills again - 06/23/03 05:30 PM

When refering to "killing" ETA members we like to use the terms like elimenating or clearing out not "murdering". wink And thanks for the insight on the Guardia Civil but still don't understand what so bad about hiering some one to kill ETA. Heck id do it for em for free eek just kidding just kidding any ways I think im done with this particulay thread in less some one says some thing really insulting to me. eek
Posted by: Shawn

Re: ETA kills again - 06/23/03 10:27 PM

Hello Cali,

Yes, it is time for Castellanos to reestablish Castilla La Vieja, the 800 years of working with León needs to be undone. wink I think Castellanos should support the Leonés independence movement, so that pure Castellanos don't have to continue their association with inferior Leoneses. rolleyes laugh

Maybe Castellanos could march under the banner PUXA LLEÓN LLIBRE; meanwhile, the LLioneses could carry ¡VIVAN LOS COMUNEROS!. The two sides working together could tear asunder this 800 year history of cooperation. wink After all, Castellanos are tired of seeing cuisine from León in their restaurants Cuisine from León .

Once Castilla y León is broken up, then each province would declare independece. Maybe we could start the independence movement for Valladolid right here, ¡Aúpa Pucela! ¡Libertad y Independencia! :p

I think this independence nonsense is beginning to spread throughout Spain, thanks to MadridMan. I think I read Getafe is ready to declare independece from the Madrid Community, and that La Latina is seeking to become an independent city. All this thanks to the MadridMan Forum.

Cheers laugh laugh
Posted by: Puna

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 01:13 AM

Well said, Booklady!

Yes, some of you might find the topic of ETA boring, monotonous, redundent - if this is the case - skip the thread! A good many of the statements made are knowledgable and have insight that those of us not living in Spain (boo-hoo frown ) find informative - whether we agree or not!

And I do think that, regardless if you agree or not with Fernando, he should be commended for presenting his outlook with a great deal of research and clear thinking.

Pim and Fernando have shared everything from job hunting tips to recipes - why should they not be able to share their thoughts on something as important as this?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 06:48 AM

¿¡Research!? laugh :p rolleyes
¿¡Clear thinking!? laugh :p rolleyes
Posted by: Wolf

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 08:01 AM

I'm totally with Booklady and Puna on this one. The thoughts that are being posted may be disagreeable to some of us, but the links, and the comments are germain. I'm learning more about the "grass roots issues" from this particular thread than I did in previous threads, and can say it's eye-opening from both sides of the issue.

Anyway - there seems to be a lot more activity on the boards when issues like this are discussed, and it gets a bit sedentary when there aren't issues that are being openly debated. I might be wrong on this, but it seems that way... anyway.

As they said, "If you don't want to read what's posted, skip past the thread." Not everything in the world is peaches & cream, and we have to live with these issues, and deal with them.

Wolf
Posted by: Wolf

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 10:13 AM

Why hasn't anyone brought up the de-certification of Basque political parties back in 1997 & 1998?

It was done to keep anyone who supported seperatism off the ballots. Of course it didn't work, because Basques lined up at government offices, during normal working hours, and signed the petitions to get their names back on the ballots. It was clearly a show of support in my eyes.

Obviously there's more support for the issues of autonomy than most people care to consider, or realize. Each time another Basque political group is de-certified, another one takes it's place, and there are more Basques who feel like they are being treated like "second class citizens" in their own nation. Despite the fact that some people believe that their political base is waning, it may actually be getting stronger.

Wolf
Posted by: Cristobo Carrín

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 12:28 PM

Shawn, it`s no wonder "independence nonsense" is growing increasingly popular. The idea of a Spanish nation just wasn`t properly defined in the 1978 constitution, so this problem, however we pretend to ignore it, will persist. And it is a BASICAL one, the issue about what are we (Spaniards, Basques, Castilians, Asturians, whatever) and what kind of state do we prefer.
Even in Madrid they exist anti-Spanish nationalists, see this site, run by a Castilian nationalist.

http://es.geocities.com/cibercastilla/castilla.htm

It is a tough thing to say, but in my opinion Franco had a much more accurate idea about what a nation and a state are. A united Spain? That sounds logical. A bunch of different nations making some sort of "confederated republic"? Why not, but the system that eventually was adopted is totally stupid: so there are seventeen autonomous communities, and some of them have a greater degree of self-government than others? Why? some are regions, some others are "nationalities"? How can that be? It is utterly STUPID.
By the way, Llion and Castile were two separate entities until someone had the great idea to unite them in 1978 (while tearing apart La Montana and La Rioja out of Castile, God knows why). Castilians should vote a nationalist option, it is obvious that they would achieve a higher development through a party which took care of their country, instead of the current stupid, corrupted, incompetent, and franquist-recycled polititians from the Popular Party. They have done nothing but to ruin Castile along these last twenty years.
I think I have a clue about what is going on, it is obvious that Spaniards (I mean Spanish parties) are awkward about the independence process and will do anything to stop it, including taking increasingly opressive measures. I am afraid all what they will get is a reinforcement of ETA.
What a bloody shame, ETA was about to dissapear and now they will have not the least problem to recruit new members and financial support, since it is obvious that Spanish repression is back.
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 02:37 PM

Quite amazing Cristobo laugh But in my honest opinion you are confusing the real Spain with what you would want Spain to be.

My parents were born in Madrid, I was born in Madrid. I don't feel castilian, I feel spaniard, a madrileño. And as me 99,9% of Madrid's population (we would have to include here radical nationalist inmigrants from other parts of Spain which we have openly and generously accepted in Madrid).

Spain is not a coaligation of petty nations, Spain is a nation itself as it has been demonstrated by our common history through centuries. Spain without the Basque Country, or without Asturias (knowing plenty of asturians myself it really amazes me how can an asturian be a separatist...) is not Spain. Spain is not Castile.

I accept that in our country there are different cultures, languages and nationalities, but that doesn't mean that we have more in common than what distinguishes us.

And please, don't forget that those you are calling recycled franquists with disrespect obtained almost 45% of the votes, and that PSOE obtained another 35%. Nationalists and regionalists obtained barely a 10% of the votes.

Fernando
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 03:40 PM

When I first read Castiza first message, I supposed she was being sarcastic, but I couldn't absolutely tell, because there's been Castilian Nationalism since we're a supposed democracy in 1978.

I used to see walls painted with PANCAL mottos in Burgos, and I have many times heard the claim of separation from people of former kingdom of León. Also, I have heard people of Burgos complain about "p*ta Pucela".

For some people it's a matter of History, rights, customs, ..., but the masses only line up behind those when it's a matter of money and power also.

In Spain every level of the Administration takes a high tariff on the areas depending on it. Thus, Madrid takes profit of the rest of the state, Valladolid of the Castilla la Vieja autonomous comunity, and so on.

For example, MAdrid hosts the central offices of many huge firms which were created in the industrial areas of the country (Madrid was not, they begun 20 years ago), and whose central offices were pushed towards Madrid by españolistas governments in this late years. But more important is the fact that when they open new activities or enlarge older ones, it's always in Madrid, forcing the sons of the people who constructed and worked for these industries to migrate to Madrid, bringing richness trough taxes (of both firm and workers), commerce (to suppply them), ...

Recently there was about to be a merging between a basque controlled firm: Iberdrola (electric) and a catalonian controlled one: Gas Natural (gas). The government forbade it, and today, El País newspaper records comments of a non-specified government speaker: "How can they hope to take the (would be) first energy firm in Spain to Barcelona, the first energy firm must be in Madrid". See the newspaper, I am not lying!

As for Valladolid, when the autonomous community was formed, there was an agreement/consensus between the parties of the region that Parliament would be in one of these provinces: Valladolid, León and Burgos, the others would get the Administration staff and government, and the third would get most of the Courts, including the higher. They are close enough for this not be a real distance problem.

The result, a couple of years afterwards, was that almost all went to Valladolid. No doubt people felt angry about this, but they could do nothing because all of their representatives belonged to PP (then AP) or CDS or PSOE, and those very representatives were into the discipline of their party. They had nobody to speak for them and defend their rights.

Going further from Cristobo's words, with those thieves you have to defend yourself. ¡Quien no llora no mama! Sad but that's the way it is.

Now Madrid is overcrowded, prices are enormous for our salaries, transport is horrible, there is a big housing problem, ... And they are taking profit through land speculation, in despite that the quality of life of people is going down after coming to Madrid for a job, and that the firms compulsed to come have much higher costs: salaries are higher here (altough not as much as prices), land too, services too, transport implies many times very long trip in taxi for business, delivering is a nightmare, ...

I know you suffer this in New York and other big cities, but WE didn't and it isn't necessary here to make business and create goods just here. It's a political measure that tries also to merge population in Madrid, so that people's sons no longer feel "nationals" of anywhere. No matter if they ruin those areas in the process.

If you has done the same, today New York, Chicago, Detroit, L.A., Miami, would be towns of 500.000 to 1 or 2 million, and Washington a megalopolis much bigger than NY is today, incredibly rich on the others shoulders.

Wolf, I didn't remember that. There have been so many agressions that one cannot remember all of them. After all, that could be overcame fairly easily,althoug with effort. Other couldn't.
Posted by: Cristobo Carrín

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 04:01 PM

I was born and raised in Asturias, and my ancestors (as far as I know) were ALL Asturians since the dawns of time. All my life I was educated to believe that my nation is Spain, we Spaniards are all equals, democracy, the king, the "Transicion", our historical links with Latin America, blah, blah, blah...
All that means nothing. I changed my mind for myself, mostly. I don`t care if 45% of Castilian voters chose the Partido Posfranquista. I don`t care if some 50% of adult Asturians chose to vote constitutionalist options (many of my countrymen are so FED UP that they just don`t vote).
Do you know the saying? "When a majority of people agree on something, perhaps it means only that all the fools lie on the same side." If I wanted to follow the majority, I would watch "Cronicas Marcianas" every night.
An Asturian who votes PP or PSOE, today, is simply fooling himself (or herself). And those who still support our estatuto, well...maybe they are misinformed, maybe they just didn`t bother to think on the issue. I don`t care, anyway I don`t agree.
The idea of a Spanish nation is undermining all that is worth maintaining in Asturian culture; and the current political structure is pushing us to economical and political colonialism, poverty and emigration. I will NEVER accept it.
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 04:12 PM

The problem is not being different from the rest (the majority), the problem is not respecting the majority's decisions and ideology and trying to impose a minority's ideology over the majority.

"It is always better to change yourself than to try to try to change the world's order" (René Descartes)

Fernando
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 05:23 PM

True! Right, Fernando!

If people did as you say, lots of wars could have had been avoided, including the US independence one. After all, the English in the motherland were much more! All they had to do is submit and respect the majority's desire to fry them with unbearable taxes... rolleyes
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 05:42 PM

Spain is not occupying the Basque Country, and to say the opposite is just a fantasy.

Fernando
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 06:06 PM

England wasn't either, it was part of their land by then.
Posted by: Cristobo Carrín

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 06:58 PM

Mmmm...what do you mean by "respect", exactly? In other words, who is trying to impose anything?
I just think my people are following a wrong path, and I do my best to change their minds. I am a member of a political party and support any major campaign against cultural imperialism, shortages of liberties and political corruption.
Should I just shut up because my minoritarian ideas might disturb the innocence and confidence of the majority on their being right?
Well, I will not. I will try to "impose" my ideas on the rest. Bad news for Federico Jimenez-Losantos...
Posted by: Shawn

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 09:53 PM

Cristobo Carrín,

Quote:
By the way, Llion and Castile were two separate entities until someone had the great idea to unite them in 1978
Let me remind you that Fernando III (El Santo) in 1230 united Castilla y León. That is nearly 800 years of unity, this unity was only broken briefy by Franco. Unless you wish to return to the politics of Franco, then you cannot deny the strong historical unity of Castilla and León.

Fortunately, nearly the same number of people who believe that the earth is flat, about 1%, vote for the TC candidates. You can also notice that the vote total for the nationalist in Castilla has shrunk over the last few years

Castilla y León 2003

Do not be ashamed to be Spanish!
Pelayo began the liberation of Spain from those beautiful green mountains of Asturias. Spaniards of Asturian ancestry have always played important roles in Spanish history. You can be proud of your regional traditions and of your Spanish nacionality.

España es un crisol de pueblos.

¡Viva la diversidad y la unidad!
¡Viva España!
Posted by: Cristobo Carrín

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 10:54 PM

Shawn
Fernando the 3rd (indeed all his sucessors including Juan Carlos I) was named "King of Castile AND Leon". Both kingdoms maintained much of their own political structure untouched, including separate currency (or so I think, the "escudos leoneses" existed for a long, didn`t they?). Franco just restored a separation that had never totally disappeared, despite the attempt to transform all the kingdoms into "provincias" in 1834, according to the French model. This attempt obviously FAILED
As for me, I don`t feel proud of being Spanish because I don`t even FEEL Spanish. I don`t care what my stupid identity card says. Pelayo founded an independent Asturian kingdom, while central and Southern Hispania started a new era under moslem control. That`s neither good nor bad. I am not one of those fools who boast because Moors didn`t manage to conquer us. All I say it is simply that we, people from the Iberian peninsula, don`t share a common history, nor a common cultural heritage. By the time when Alfonse the II of Asturias sent ambassadors to Charles the Great, the calipha from Cordoba was becoming the most powerful king of the moslem world, and Catalonia was the southern province of the empire of Charles himself.
All my friends, and people of my generation that I know, are unemployed, or have moved abroad, to Madrid or England or anywhere. The birth rate has fallen to one third in thirty years (I mean, now only one baby is born where three were before), and the countryside is growing unhabited. Cattle raisers, fishermen, even small store-owners are ruined due to the bad conditions that Spain negociated when joining the EU. All what I knew when I was a little boy is collapsing, I myself can`t find a future in my country, and you still want me to be proud of my being Spanish? What else, should I wave a Spanish flag when his Royal Highness comes to visit us during the Prince of Asturias awards???
Posted by: Quintos233

Re: ETA kills again - 06/24/03 11:27 PM

I know I said I wasnt going to post again on this but im back :p Critisbo Carrin I really dont agree with your not feeling "Spanish" bah none sense! Are you suggesting we let this great nation my true love to wither and die NO! It wont happen we will rise again tomorow the new empire will be forged. The people of Spain and even Portugal have a common history and culture we have a Medeterenean culture and all of our languages derive from latin even Basque has adopted some latin. When we drove the moors of our land we established the great nation of Spain please be reminded this nation ruled half the world at one time and has survived many hardships including 700 yrs. of muslim rule I think the gallant Spaniards can handle Francos 30 yrs or so of rule. And we need to have sex more often to bring up the fertility rate and slow down this inmigration laugh Do we want a Spain to survive more? For say the next 20 or 30 years because the way its going now it will just be a puppet nation a nation with a paper foundation. In that case I agree with you Cristobo. More sex less imagration is what Spain needs. smile . Weres the galant Spain of 1492 and 1519 where is the valor and honor of our nation is it hidden deep in our spirits? Has it disapeared. No nos queda valor???? Ignacio: If you think the Guardia Civil is Castillas verison of ETA you are deeply mistakened you try to compare these two organizations as if they are both on the same page. The Guardia Civil may be a corrupted police force (from what you are telling me any ways it is) its still just that a corrupted police that doesn't justify it being on the equivalent of the murderers of women and children ETA. The Guardia Civil doesn't plant bombs in Bilbao every other week. You show me proof definent proof of Guardia Civil using torture tactics and show me them putting women and children in danger then mabey just mabey I will think it is justified to compare them to ETA Ignacio you are simply mistakened. In this whole ETA and Guardia Civil jig you got going I suggest you let go it isn't working for yea wink
Posted by: Roe

Re: ETA kills again - 06/25/03 12:25 PM

Quintos233, that sounds a little like spanish nationalism to me...

I know that I said to let this topic go, but since it is still raging on, I suppose I will jump in.
Posted by: Quintos233

Re: ETA kills again - 06/25/03 04:05 PM

Na its not raging on just forget about it. rolleyes Im sorry for actually being proud about my nation. frown
Posted by: CaliBasco

Re: ETA kills again - 06/26/03 04:03 AM

Quintos: Here's an abstract for an article from '95 on the involvement of the PSOE with the GAL death squads. That should satisfy part A of your request. I'll work on the women and children...hoping I turn up nothing. I'll e-mail you the whole article to read. It's on the ProQuest Academic database. I currently have access to it.

Spanish inquisition
New Statesman & Society; London; Sep 15, 1995; Carr, Matthew;

Volume: 8; Issue: 370; UMI Publication No.: 02532314; Start Page: 19; Page Count: 0; Text Word Count: 1128; Document Type: Feature; Source Type: PERIODICAL; ISSN: 09542361
Subject Terms: Trials, Prime ministers, Murders & murder attempts, Corruption in government
Activists

Personal Names: Gonzalez, Felipe

UMI Journal Code: GNSS
Abstract:
The Spanish Supreme Court will decide soon whether to bring Prime Minister Felipe Gonzalez to trial for his involvement with the death squads that killed 28 activists between 1983 and 1987. Carr discusses the aura of sleaze and corruption which has begun to surround the Spanish government.

CRISTOBO: That quip about the Partido Posfranquista is classic! I love it!!! Why is it that when the king becomes king he's king of Spain, but when he's prince he's only prince of Asturias? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Pelayo is probably "dando vueltas en la tumba". wink
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/26/03 06:10 AM

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/26/03 06:28 AM

Quintos:

Ex-Govenment Deputy in B.C. (gipuzkoa) m...ures. (Spanish)

I don\'t need to prove anything, General...f tortures (sp)

Supreme Court (out of the last remains of dignity) asks Govenment not to indult general Galindo (sp)

Izquierda Unida complains on the politiz...t to G. G. (sp)

Some more info on alledges terrible crimes of "Saint Guardia Civil" (Benemérita) (sp)

Galindo was finally indulted as well as many of the torturers. And this is the small number of cases that have been proved, in spite of the difficulties for proving anything against the police, and with the higher courts being dependent of political parties.
Posted by: Quintos233

Re: ETA kills again - 06/27/03 03:25 AM

Ignacio i think you have visited this anti-Spanish site to much http://www.basque-red.net/homei.htm
Posted by: Cristobo Carrín

Re: ETA kills again - 06/27/03 07:40 AM

Calibasco:
In my opinion "Partido Policial" is even more funny. As to the "Prince of Asturias", I don`t think Pelayo would feel offended. He was never named a "King", the chronicles of the time never called him "Rex Pelagius", but "Princeps Pelagius" instead. "Princeps" has many meanings, but historians agree that in this context it means something like "leader" or "chief".
Asturias became a princedom in 1388, when the would-be Henry the 3rd of Castile married Catherine of Lancaster. The idea was taken after the Princedom of Wales, obviously. Supposedly the heir of Castile would rule Asturias, as a way to keep the country under strict control: Asturias was quite a problem for the Castilian kings at the time, and they wanted to keep it tightly controlled, once and for all. It was around that time, too, when the Xunta Xeneral was founded, the Asturian Parliament.
Ignacio:
The Galindo case is quite illustrating. So a Spanish general grabs some million bucks for murdering terrorists, and then they catch him, try him and kick him out of the army in dishonour.
The final result? Mr. Galindo is still kept in a military prison (WHY? he is a civilian now) under very special priviledges and the army refuses to send him to a common prison due to some ridiculous "problems with bureaucracy".
In other words, the Spanish army is helping Mr.Galindo. They don`t regard him as a traitor and a murderer, but rather as a patriot and a hero. Just as it happened during the Coup d`Etat, in 1981: the men involved were seen, not as traitors against their country, but just like patriots instead.
The Spanish army stinks.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 06/27/03 02:15 PM

Quintos:

True. You are right and I am not, I acknowledge it when it happens, not like others (not speaking about you). Galindo hasn't been indulted yet. Although the government is trying hard to find a way, as I'll prove later. However, minister Barrionuevo and assistant Vera, as well as other killers were indulted partially (two/thirds) Link (Spanish)

And false. I don't read too much that web page, first because never can one read too much, and besides, I came across that page when I was searching for info on Galindo. Athough I knew it before, I don't use to read it usually.

Anyway, we have the spanish point of view here in Madrid in the five free TVs, in the Via Digital/Canal Satélite Digital TVs, Canal Plus, that is, all the TVs in here..., in the newspapers: El País, EL Mundo, La Razón, ABC, ..., in the radios Cope, SER, Intereconomía, ..., in the net: Terra and others ...

So you have to look hard for information wherever it may be specially now that most of our newspapers, and web pages, are forbidden.

Anyway, my fonts are diverse, as you can see if you take the time to look at the links I have posted.

About Justice in Spain (CentrodeCriminología.com (spanish))

A quote form this link (original from Bertholt Brecht):
Quote:
Muchos jueces son absolutamente incorruptibles;
nadie puede inducirles a hacer justicia.
(Bertolt Brecht)
Translation : "Many judges are absolutely uncorruptible; nothing can induce them to make justice"

Galindo was found guilty by Audiencia Nacional and Supreme Court.

Judge Bueren (National Court- Audiencia Nacional) resigned and went to a private firm, while investigating spanish death squads. ¿Too afraid? Judge Gómez de Liaño and prosecutor did a great job, acknowledged by the legal world in Spain, but he paid dearly for it, with a trap in which he was charged and "found guilty" of "deliberate neglect of duty". Link.

Now, PP has made some changes in regulations that imply that most higher level chief prosecutors will be changed (by the ones PP wants). Recent declarations of the Anti- Corruption prosecutor speak of the general attorney forbidding investigations on PP's scandals and encouraging on PSOE's supposed ones. I won't post links, these days it's in EVERY newspaper.

By the way, Galindo and 110 Guardias CIviles were accused of this, not just a couple, although only some have been to jail. Also, he has just (not surprisingly, after the Gómez de Liaño message been absolved (by now) of charges on drug dealing in Intxaurrondo.

Cristobo:

Spanish army stinks... or spanish police stinks (Guardia Civil is both), or spanish courts stink (read newspapers about General attorney Cardenal and many others..., and Spanish politics stink (remember Asamblea de Madrid and estate speculators), and ... Really "our" society is surprisingly andincredibly corrupt.

The few dinosaurs left who respect honor and justice and fight for trem, like Gómez de Liaño, leutenant-colonel Peñafiel (guardia civil), and others, are destroyed because they don't integrate in political-policial-judicial-economical mafias. I wonder how Ruiz-Gallardón (PP)(former president of Comunidad de Madrid), who I believe is an extremely honest person, although I hate his political points of view, has gone though it without having been destroyed, but let's give it some time... For example, I read that he stopped four times estate speculator's plans in Alcobendas (major (PP)seems involved). He was very skillful to abort their plans without the scandal coming out, and he was strong enough to oppose his growing influence in the PP to the money and bought politicians of the speculators in the PP.

I many times feel I am a dinosaur too for believing in old words like honor, justice, rights, loyalty, ... frown
Posted by: Quintos233

Re: ETA kills again - 06/27/03 04:12 PM

Very well said Ignacio wink ill admit you are doing much more research into the subject then I am so you are probably more knowlegable on the subject. I was just high lighting my specualtions.
The Guardia Civil is a very old police force. It is unfortunate that these charges have been raised against them.
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 06/27/03 08:44 PM

All the guardias civiles, government authorities and so on involved in the state's terrorism of GAL should never being indulged. They are as terrorists as ETA terrorists (or worse for using the state as an excuse), and by the way, they also stole public money. I don't support PSOE or PP policy in this matter of letting them get out of jail sooner.

However, said this, I have read two mistakes in Ignacio's last post: There were not 110 guardias civiles or national policemen accused of terrorism (basicly torture, kidnapping and assasination) but 5 (Galindo, Amedo, Domínguez,...), and second, Alcobendas has not a PP major, but a PSOE major for almost 20 years.

You can judge a collective of thousands for the crimes of a minority (the same way you can't judge basques as a whole by the crimes of a minority). Guardia Civil and Policía Nacional have made a brilliant and almost flawless work against ETA.

By the way, ETA's terrorism can't be justified by GAL's terrorism (and viceversus). Any terrorism is just that, a horrible and bloody collection of crimes.

As for media, you may have your point of view Ignacio, but when you say that every newspaper, every TV channel and every radio station is corrupted and manipulated (except, of course, the ultra-radical Gara you linked above), I can nothing but wonder what you consider media freedom...

Fernando
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 07/01/03 01:14 PM

Ok, I have been checking your comment on the Alcobendas major yesterday and today, for I was pretty sure I read that in the newspaper El País, but none of my mates at work live there. Fortunately, today El País publishes it again, as anybody in Spain can tell:

When I spoke on this, I said:

For example, I read that he stopped four times estate speculator's plans in Alcobendas (major (PP)seems involved). He was very skillful to abort their plans without the scandal coming out, and he was strong enough to oppose his growing influence in the PP to the money and bought politicians of the speculators in the PP.

If YOU don't mind, Fernando eek rolleyes , let me remember that the new majors have JUST been elected some days ago, and that BEFORE there were others: I am speaking on Mr. Pablo Zúñiga who was Alcobendas' major at least in 2001, and (I just don't want to research anymore) almost certainly until 2003 elections. Almost twenty years?

See how Mr. Zúñiga was major in March 2001 doing a search with the See how Mr. Zúñiga was major in March 2001 doing a search with the Adobe search button

ONLY 6.000.000.000 euros corruption business with PP major stopped four times by (PP) Gallardón El mundo (spanish). Just as I said. Right?

They are as terrorists as ETA terrorists (or worse for using the state as an excuse

They are worse, but the reason is that they are using the enormous state resources and trained soldiers/policemen paid by citizens to preserve peace to do the opposite. State terrorism is terrorism but much worse, because it's made with more means and the protection of many politicians, judges, and policemen, and, thus, it's much more difficult to prove and punish.

If terrorism and wars against enemy defenceless (like in Gernika) is coward, state terrorism
is the maximum coward action possible.

Another correction rolleyes :

I said:

By the way, Galindo and 110 Guardias CIviles were accused of this, not just a couple, although only some have been to jail

Quote:
You can judge a collective of thousands for the crimes of a minority (the same way you can't judge basques as a whole by the crimes of a minority). Guardia Civil and Policía Nacional have made a brilliant and almost flawless work against ETA.
ETA terrorists are terrorists. But spanish policemen shouldn't be terrorists but policemen.

Don't compare the Guardia Civil with The BAsques. Compare the BAsques with the Spanish, and tha GC with thier opposing force, ETA. Both have used the same means, and its sadder when the police I pay use this means against my neighbour (who pays them also). It seems that the police should use others.

And it's not an exception as you try to make it seem. May I remind you of the three guys killed by error (confusing them with ETA members) in Andalucía by a "comando" whose commander was a Major of the GC? And others ...

By the way, ETA's terrorism can't be justified by GAL's terrorism

I am not justifying it, I am showing that they are not better, which is what you unsuccessfully try to prove.
ETA = Bad guys (agree) but GC=good guys (completely disagree), bad guys also.

Quote:
but when you say that every newspaper, every TV channel and every radio station is corrupted and manipulated (except, of course, the ultra-radical Gara you linked above), I can nothing but wonder what you consider media freedom...
Sure. Utra- super-multi-radical-extremist-fanatic Gara. In fact, which basque media you think it is not U-S-M-R-E-F?

If there is any, it will be until next government campaign that will tell you which are the radical bad guy's newspapers.

Well:

El País: Prisa Group. Always close to PSOE, as everybody knows.

Canal Plus España: Prisa Group

Canal Satélite Digital: Prisa Group

El Mundo: Ideologically against PSOE, close to PP with some writers far left, critizising PSOE from the left.

ABC: Ultraconservative newspaper close to the right wing of PP.

La Razón: PP points of views, even more than El Mundo.

TVE1: State TV (in the hands of PP).

TVE2: The same

Antena 3 TV: Controlled by Telefonica S.A., presidence of firm controlled by PP. Scandal for President salary (x million euros ¿6?) paid to make a media group supporting the PP.

Expansión: Main economy newpaper. Controlled by Pearson Group, with alliance with Telefónica who's got about 5% of Pearson.

Tele 5: Berlusconi (Aznar ally, and fascist, like him) TV.

Via Digital: Telefónica

and the rest.

The four nation-wide channels of TV TVE1, TVE2, Antena3 and Tele5 are controlled right now by the Government.

Also the most popular newspapers, excluding El País, the most read one, which is very close to PSOE (españolista too).

The two (soon to be merged) digital TVs, by PSOE and PP (españolista).

I don't know very well about radios, I don't hear them much, but SER, COPE, and, well, ALL the national ones, are controlled by them too.

I find it funny when the spanish media speak about basque people being misinformed because they can read only nationalist press. In fact, they are the only ones whose info is truly diverse, because they can see this media and also the basque press one, whereas the Spanish's opinion is based on unilateral points of view. The basques, the catalonians, and few more.

I am not saying that that press doesn't ever lie, but it's easier to uncover a lie when another newspaper gives a different info than waiting for God's mumble in your ear.

Remember Washington Post and New York Times. Nobody would have known what was going on if the WP hadn't uncovered it. In Spain there is not that media diversity, that makes the 4th power a help and not a chain.

We are chained by not being able to tell the truth (they don't publish what doesn't fit their interests), we cannot read the truth, and we are brainwashed by continuous biased info.
Posted by: jtevar

Re: ETA kills again - 07/02/03 11:44 AM

Ignacio, just a couple of things:

In the BOE link where you've said Zúñiga was Alcobendas' major ... it says Zúñiga is ALCORCÓN major. I don't know how corrupt he is, but in these elections, PSOE has won (14 seats vs. 11 seats for PP and 2 for IU). In 1999 it was opposite: 14 PP; 11 PSOE; 2 IU. You can see it here . So Mr Zúñiga is no longer Alcorcón's major (maybe he's been punished for speculation; I don't know since I'm not from Alcorcón).
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: ETA kills again - 07/02/03 06:33 PM

¡O my God! I always mistake those two names. Both are very close to Madrid, Alcobendas to the North and Alcorcón to the South.

I should hav said Alcorcón all the time. In fact, the other link I give, the newspaper one, also says Alcorcón. My fault, a 'lapsus linguae'.
Posted by: Fernando

Re: ETA kills again - 07/03/03 08:47 AM

It was quite rare... I was almost sure that Alcobendas had had a PSOE major for more than ten years...

I know nothing of Alcorcón's major, but it seems the election results have something to do with him...

Fernando
Posted by: CaliBasco

Re: ETA kills again - 07/04/03 07:49 PM

And who is the mayor of ALBONDIGAS? ME! wink

Actually I wanted to say that this is one of the most reasonable ETA-based threads I've seen here. I'm learning a lot, and as well getting my memory spurred about things like the GAL, etc.

C-Carrin: Thanks for the Asturian history lesson. I lived in Aviles [my accents aren't working] for a time back in '89 and really love the Principado. I still say that Covadonga and the surrounding Picos de Europa is perhaps the most beautiful place on God's Green Earth!