Vanity Fair Article

Hi all,

A friend of mine recently sent me an excerpt from the Feb 2003 Dame Edna column. Please read:
_________________________________________________

Dear Dame Edna,

I would very much like to learn a foreign language,preferably French or Italian, but every time I mention this, people tell me to learn Spanish instead. They say, "Everyone is going to be speaking Spanish in 10 years. George W. Bush speaks Spanish." Could this be true? Are we all going to have to speak Spanish?

Torn Romantic, Palm Beach

Dear Torn:

Forget Spanish. There's nothing in that language worth reading except Don Quixote, and a quick listen to the CD of Man of La Mancha will take
care of that. There was a poet named Garcia Lorca, but I'd leave him on the intellectual back burner if I were you. As for everyone's speaking it, what twaddle! Who speaks it that you are really desperate to talk to? The
help? Your leaf blower? Study French or German, where there are at least a few books worth reading, or, if you're not American, try English.

Dame Edna

________________________________________________

As a person who is genuinely enraptured by my culture and believe Hispanics are a vital, dynamic, intelligent workforce I wrote an email to vfmail@vf.com to express my outrage

If you do not want to do this then please comment and tell us how you feel about Dame Edna's comment

MM: I certainly do not mean to use this board for any incendiary commentary but felt that it was important to post this terrible injustice so that all can comment/reflect. Please remove if you feel it is necessary.

Dame Edna occupies my mind only during the time it takes for me to imagine kicking her / him as hard as I can in the ass.
PS: wearing steel toe boots.

I don't think you should really take Dame Edna too seriously. She always says outrageous things but ultimately, the whole act is a satire on middle class (Australian)values. Barry Humphries (her alter-ego) also does a character called Sir Les Patterson, who allegedly was once the Australian Minister for Culture. I'd be interested in knowing where this column appeared. In the UK, where she's been perfoming for years, she's seen more as a sort of batty/outrageous/embarrasing/camp/grotesque Auntie figure.

I received this e-mail also. However, since I didn't actually see the article, I'm wondering, considering all of the other hoaxes that are passed around the internet, if this is another one!? I'd protest if it were, but if its not?! I don't care what type of character Dame is, but that Vanity Fair would actually publish that?

I'm also starting to have doubts about the column. Having thought about it, it isn't very funny and Dame Edna usually is. It's not really the sort of thing she'd talk about either. Strange.

Maybe it's because it is the written word, rather than Dame Ednas verbal and visual performance?

I'm sure if we'd seen 'her' perform it, then the satire may have come accross?

Looks like this one might have backfired

Jo

Well, the piece was published. I read it in Vanity Fair this week. But don't get wound up about it. It's not supposed to be serious. Whether you split your sides laughing about it is anither matter. But I doubt you will.

Ay Caramba, Edna, mija no tienes pelos en la lengua!
Holy Cow, Edna you have no hairs on her tongue, sweetie!

I think Edna, went a little too far here! What is this! Are all Hispanics seen as the help! Are we all "Manuel's from Barcelona" (i.e. Fawlty Towers)!

No, it was not in good taste, I enjoy a laugh more than the next person, but this was a bit too much stereotyping for my taste. I wont forgive Edna about Spanish Literature, either! My message to the old DAme: Edna Baby better remember what happened to Andy Rooney! He got his bum kicked, that's what! :p

Hey, Jo, other than this little incident, I like to watch Dame Edna, she's a scream!

Dame Edna should go back to school and learn a little about modern Spanish literature: Jorge Luis Borges, Marquez, and a couple of hundred other writers, or more could enliven her, enlighten her and entertain her for several lifetimes. . . oh, but what a tradegy, she doesn't speak or read Spanish!

The US/English empire is at its zenith, which means that it is also on the way out. Spain was the first global empire, and Spanish-speaking people are one of the largest, and fastest growing groups in the world. The Japanese have replaced English with Spanish as THE second language to study to be ready for the challenges of the future. . .

I took French in Junior High School, but think I would have been better off taking Spanish. No matter, now my Spanish is much, much better than my French! ¡Viva Español!

Martín de Madrid
President
1st Class Pinups
"The Classical Alternative in Pinup Art"
Artists: check out our Painting Forum!
http://www.1stclasspinups.com

Guapetona said this:
Who do you think "Hispanics" are?. Do you really think that there is a "Hispanic" culture?. Do you really think that Argentinians are the same thing as the Bolivians?, or that the Ecuatorians are the same thing as the Dominicans?. Those people speaks the same language and used to be a Spanish colony, but besides that what else do they have in common?.

Come on, there is no "Hispanic culture", there is no "Hispanic" people. There are very different people and nationalities that speaks Spanish that is what there is, in many cases very different ones from the others but there is no Hispanic culture at all.

Do you think that putting people with so different backgrounds in the same basket just because they speak the same language (Spanish) does it make sense?.

May be when you think of "Hispanic culture" you are referring to the culture of Spain and Spaniards and their direct descendants in America. All the great writers, painters, artists, that are associated with "Hispanic" culture are Spaniards or direct Spanish descendants and frankly I don´t see why Dominicans, Ecuatorians, Peruans, and most latinamericans.... can be proud of Cervantes, Picasso, Dali, Velazquez, Goya, ?.

Sorry to dissapoint you but We Spaniards don´t think there is a "Hispanic culture" exceptuating our own culture (the culture of Spain, Spaniards and direct descendants of Spaniards in America).

I can see why Vanity Fair said that on that article. We don´t like that our culture (Spain´s culture) is abused permanently by people that don´t have a drop of Spain´s blood and that keep saying that they are Spanish in the US when they are not.

Many of us hate the fact that there are many Southamericans (Hondurans, Mexicans, Dominicans, Bolivians) that are living in the US and that call themshelves "Spanish" just because they speak our language.

It´s like if someone from Jamaica goes to to the US and says he is "English" and that he belongs to the "Anglosajon" culture.

I post this so you can understand this issue much better.

I don't agree even a little bit with you ERT (with all due respect).

As a spaniard I think that there is a wide community of hispanics with which we share a common culture, a common language and even the same religion.

As a matter of fact, I think that the ties between us are much stronger than those which link the Commonwealth for example.

We have a bunch of writters with a prolific career, each country has his own spanish language academy and they share and coordinate the rules so the language as certain unification (flexible rules so that the diversity is not erased).

Our way of being and behaving is quite similar (obviously with differences normal in people who lives thousands of kilometers away), we have customs which are quite similar. Our religion is the same (in general).

Internationally there is a close coperation between our countries. We have inmigration and commercial agreements and do normally have a certain degree of coordination in international forums.

As for the Vanity Fair article... I wouldn't mind. It is a stupidity written by an ignorant.

Fernando

"As a spaniard I think that there is a wide community of hispanics with which we share a common culture, a common language and even the same religion."

I´m sure you are saying that because when you say that you have in your mind Argentinians, Uruguayans, and other "Hispanics" of pure European stock (be them in Mexico, Venezuela or wherever they could be). As you are living in Madrid I don´t think that you believe that the Ecuatorians, Peruans, Dominicans that are living here have anything to do with us or to the "Hispanic" culture you have in your mind. Be honest, do you think the Ecuatorians living in Madrid are similar to us or to the Argentinians in any sense (exceptuating the language)?.

For the average American when they think about "Hispanics" they are talking about the Mexicans, Hondurans that are legally or illegally in their country. For that reason "Hispanics" are considered an ETHNIC minority that deserves Affirmative Action. Do you think We Spaniards or Argentinians need an affirmative action to enter to an University in the US?.

Do you honestly think you have anything in common with the following people?

http://web.mit.edu/21f.714/www/raices/bra11.jpg

(this is how most central and southamericans look like and this is what an average American have in mind when thinking about "Hispanics")

or this people:

http://www.adidharma.net/bday/los-mexicanos.JPG

I think when you talk about "Hispanics" you have in mind the following kind of people (that is the minority in most central and southamerican countries). This people probably represent the "Hispanic culture" you are referring and not the ones in the above links:

http://www.mre.gov.br/Imagens/FOTOS/jun2000/villalba.jpg
http://www.mre.gov.br/Imagens/FOTOS/jun2000/bicudo.jpg

"We have a bunch of writters with a prolific career, each country has his own spanish language academy and they share and coordinate the rules so the language as certain unification (flexible rules so that the diversity is not erased)."

And who are they?. They are pure Spanish descendants (like the ones in the last 2 links). Can you tell me any southamerican writer, painter, artist that look like the people in the 2 first links?. The elite in those countries (cultural, economic, social elites) are normally the Spanish descendants, which represents in most of the Central or Southamerican countries a low percentaje (between the 1% of the total population in El Salvador, a 8% in Mexico, to a 60% in Argentina). Go to Mexico and you will realize the brutal segregation between the european-descendant Mexicans and the noneuropean population (which is the 92% of Mexico). There are even neighbourhoods, villas and clubs in Mexico that don´t allow non-european looking mexicans to get in.

"Our way of being and behaving is quite similar (obviously with differences normal in people who lives thousands of kilometers away), we have customs which are quite similar. Our religion is the same (in general)."

Do you think your way of behaving is similar, your customs are the same as the way of behaving, etc of the people of this photo?

http://web.mit.edu/21f.714/www/raices/bra11.jpg

or probably you think that your way of behaving is similar to the people in this photo?

http://www.mre.gov.br/Imagens/FOTOS/jun2000/villalba.jpg

The people in the first photo represents the 85-90% of the habitants in Central and Southamerica and the people in the second photo represents the 10, 15% of the total population of Central and Southamerica. Do you think the people in the second photo should
be considered as an ethnic minority?. No. The "Hispanics" are considered an ethnic minority because most Hispanics that emigrate to the US are similar to the people of the first picture.

"Internationally there is a close coperation between our countries. We have inmigration and commercial agreements and do normally have a certain degree of coordination in international forums."

What kind of coperation are you talking about?. I don´t refuse the facts that a lot of ties do exist between Spain and Central and Southamerica but if you are honest you will realize that the relation is mainly managed between Spaniards and their descendants in Central and Southamerican.

For example who were the Mexicans that allowed the Spaniards to emmigrate to Mexico when We had the Civil War and the Dictadura?. Who was Lazaro Cardenas?. He was a pure Spanish descendant.

Who are the people that manage the Academia de la Lengua Española in the American countries?. Spanish descendants. Who are the ones that go to the Iberoamericans gatherings each year?. Spanish descendants dirigents with Spain´s and Portugal prime ministers.

I think you´ve never been to Central and Southamerica. The ones that claim more effusively to be "Hispanic/Latino" are precissely the ones that have the less right to claim so. And the ones that don´t claim it are precissely the ones that could claim it.

I'm sorry but I can't confirm if I have something in common with the people you showed on the pictures... at least not by their skin color or ethnia, I should have first to talk with them.

In any case, I have had interaction with hispanics of many ethnias and that is the reason for which I think as I have posted.

Do you know who Garcilaso de la Vega was? One of the greatest spanish writers of any time... he was 100% indian.

Fernando

I think you are confusing speaking the same language (that makes a lot to give the appareance of similar culture and to get along better) to having the same culture.

I posted those pictures to show the examples of the types of immigrants we have in Madrid. I don´t think many Spaniards would agree with you in thinking that they have the same culture than the people in some of the pictures I´ve posted as I´m also very sure that many madrileños don´t think AT ALL that they belong to the same culture as the thousands of Ecuatorians we have in Madrid.

I've really tried to understand you ERT, I've read your last couple of posts and frankly nothing of what you say holds any water.

You lack the [censored] to say you hate a race out front and use whatever passing thread you can to start what seems to be in your imagination 'a debate'.
All the photos you have chosen could be from any one country in Latin America/world,even Argentina. I don't know why you have a fixation in drawing distinctions between Argentina and Uruguay to Ecuador and Peru to illustrate your ignorance.
Everyone knows the immigration situation as it stands, what planet are you on??!

I find it really funny how people get so angry for something that unimportant.
Me, myself, I'm a Spaniard studying my PhD in Latin American Literatures & Cultures. This plural indicates something, I guess. There's a huge diversity in the Latin American cultural world. We simply needed a word to summarize all. What do these places have in common?? Spanish heritage. How could we call it?? Hispanic. There's not much in common between Argentina and Perú, or Cuba and Panamá, or Spain and East Harlem, or Miami and Cuzco. There's a language and a very rich cultural background... I feel with the same intensity Fernando Vallejo (Colombian), Fernández de Lizardi (Mexican), García Márquez (Colombian), Carlos Fuentes (Mexican), Pablo Neruda (Chilean), Jorge Luis Borges (Argentinian), Luis Buñuel (Spanish), Nancy Morejón (Cuban), Arturo Ripstein (Mexican), Mario Benedetti (Uruguayan), Sandra Cisneros (American), Edmundo Paz Soldán (Bolivian), Diego Rivera (Mexican), Cervantes (Spanish)... They're all the same for me... just part of a very rich culture called "Hispanic"

miche

I don´t mind if you understand me or not, I just ask you to don´t insult me because I hadn´t do it and if you had the "[censored]" (as you have said) to do it you will do it personally and not through internet. You are the one who is imaginating things, check into yourself to see if you are a racist because that is the word you often use, I´m quite sure that the only racist in here is you. If you are not a racist I´ll invite you to live during 10 years in a neighbourhood full of gypsies with your family. Will you do it, don´t you?. Yes...I know that you will say through internet that you will live with them during 10 years because that is politically correct...but in reality you will not do it and if you did it you will run away during the first month to a new neighbourhood.

As I think you are from England, do you consider Jamaicans or Australian Aborigins to belong to the "Anglo culture", do you consider them "Anglosajons"?. Would you like that the Jamaicans went to the US saying that they are English?. Would you like that the English will be considered an Ethnic minority because someone said that the Jamaicans, Australian Aboirigins and English belong to the same culture?. I just don´t like it because I´m a proud Spaniard, proud of my country and of his History and I don´t want that Spain, the Spanish language ot the Spanish culture is abused by people that don´t have a drop of Spain´s blood. May be if We had done what you ENGLISH did in Northamerica (exterminating the native populations, search for "Sand Creek" for example, or the laws that allowed the hunting of the indians in the XIX century with rewards, or taken them to reservations), there wouldn´t be the confusion that now exist with the so called "Hispanic culture", which is basically the culture of Spain, Spaniards and their direct descendants in America.

If you say NO, you will have to understand that many Latinoamericans countries don´t belong to the "Hispanic culture" and that many are not "Hispanic". In Ecuador, Bolivia, Panama, EL Salvador, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Guatemala, Nicaragua the presence of the Spaniards during the colonization was minimal, those territorries dependended from the main Virreinatos but had very few Spaniards on them (mainly burocrats and "priests"), so the chance that they have any cultural similarities with us is the same as a Jamaican or an Australian Aborigin having the same cultural similarities with England or the US.

Späin,

You give me the reason again. 90% of all of those people that you mentioned are pure Spanish descendants or of pure European stock.

Maybe you´ve never been in Mexico, Argentina, or Paraguay. I´ve been there, I know the people in there, I know what they problems are and I know that the only country in America that could have similarities with us in all America is Argentina. The rest NOT AT ALL. If you talk to the people there you will realize THE BRUTAL RACISM between them. Even light skinned african-dominicans are racist against black-skinned african-dominicans. And Fernando you didn´t answer me when I ask you if you think that the Ecuatorians living in Madrid belong to the same culture as us, or that they behaviour, customs or way of seeing life is similar to us?. You know the truth but you don´t want to say it. Most madrileños will never think that the Ecuatorians belong to the same culture as us (which it is absurd by the way, Spain is a western European country with occidental values and I don´t think Ecuatorians have anything to do with it) as they will think that the Dominicans, Peruans, Hondurans, Panameños, ... don´t belong to the same culture as us if they knew them.

By the way ERT, as Spain says, it doesn't mind. You feel things in a way, I feel things the opposite. You say that you don't know many spaniards who will think south and central-americans are hispanic, and I tell you that I know a bunch of people that think my way.

That's all, you are not going to convince me, nor I'm trying to convince you.

Fernando

Fernando,

It is not a matter of feelings, it is a matter of being objetive. If someone asks you if you think Ecuatorians and Dominicans are from your same culture you have to answer with objetivity (giving reasons for it) not with what you think you feel. If there are no reasons that support your position you are just not saying what the reality is. I can feel that Japanesse are very close to Madrileños in culture becase they are friendly with madrileños in Madrid but if someone asks me if We have something in common with them I will have to start to think objetively in what We have in common and what We don´t have in common.

I used to think the same about Central and Southamerica. I used to think that We shared a lot of things, until I lived there and I realized that they are world´s apart in most things, in behaviour, way of seeing life, customs, and everything.

The people that you say that they consider them "Hispanic" are the ones that don´t know a thing about those countries. I used to think the same until I start to know those people and those countries.

What do you know for example about Honduras?. I just know that their capital is Tegucigalpa. Nothing else. What do you know about El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, ....?. So HOW can you say that the people from Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemal, Nicaragua, ... belong to the same culture as you when the only think you know about them is the capital of their country???. Just because they speak Spanish???. That is the main problem of this issue, We see Central and Southamerica as a whole but We don´t realize that inside that whole there are many countries and many people that don´t relate at all with us.

And please answer my question Fernando. Do you think that the Ecuatorianos that live in Madrid belong to the same culture as us, that We share the way of seeing life, our culture, our customs, our behaviour???. If you say NO you are just giving me the reason (you can then extrapolate it to most latinoamerican countries with the same argument), and if you say YES you are just being emotional and 0% objetive, ie, no reasons and arguments to defend your position in favour of your feelings. Conclusion: no similarities, no similar culture in terms of objetiviness.

Yes, I think that equatorians have a common culture with us. Moreover, I prefer southamericans as inmigrants than any other kind of inmigrants, because due to our common background they will merge easier with us.

This is not a matter of objectiveness, I have given you both objective and subjective reasons. If you don't believe they share a common culture with you that's fine, I respect your opinion though I don't share it.

To put it clearer: Probably less than 10% of central and south americans are direct descendants of spaniards. But 90% have adopted our culture or have merge it with their native one. Considering these two facts, it doesn't matter to me who their ancestors were, what it does matter is that they have a culture similar to mine, which is what we are discussing about.

Fernando

"Yes, I think that equatorians have a common culture with us"

Ok. Now I will start thinking that the Equatorians that live in Madrid have Western European values and that they are occidentals... Ok, thank you for enlighten me with it. Or are you implying that We don´t have those western european values and that we are an island in Europe and that the Porguese have western mentality and that We Spaniards don´t have it?. I think many Spaniards will agree with me that our culture is the culture of western Europe, with western European values and mentality and that Equatorians don´t relate to this culture at all. So how can you imply otherwise?. I would like an answer for it.

I keep believing that you are confusing speaking the same language, which is a factor to give the appareance of having the same culture with having the same culture. Language makes a lot to be able to socialize with people of different cultures and that will give the appareance of having the same culture.

Go and ask to an Argentinian if they think that Peruans, Equatorians, Bolivians belong to the same culture as them. Do it, you will have a surprise. Argentinians for example have always being proud of their European ancestors, culture and they always point it out to differenciate it from the others that cannot claim European culture in their countries.

That is why the Argentinians are portrayed in America as a country of European culture and that is why there are rivalities with Argentina for that reason. So if the Argentinians claim constantly that they are European Americans and that have western values to significate their differences with their neighbourgh countries, how can someone from Spain think that all american countries have the same culture?. The answer is: ignorance and unobjetiveness.

For example, What do you know for example about Honduras?. I just know that their capital is Tegucigalpa. Nothing else. What do you know about El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, ....?. So HOW can you say that the people from Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemal, Nicaragua, ... belong to the same culture as you when the only think you know about them is the capital of their country???. Just because they speak Spanish???. That is the main problem of this issue, We see Central and Southamerica as a whole but We don´t realize that inside that whole there are many countries and many people that don´t relate at all with us.

And BTW you haven´t given objective reasons to defend your position. You just keep saying that "they have a common culture with us" but saying nothing to support it.

I can't understand why you are that interested in changing my point of view... This is the most stupid discussion I have had ever with someone!

Please be tolerant ERT, I have posted what I think, I know that you think another way, and I respect it. If you think that equatorians are not hispanic, that's fine! But don't try to convince me to think like yourself.

It is a matter of perception of the same facts.

Fernando

It would be nice to stick to the point -so ERT, be specific and have the guts to start your own thread, that's what I mean by [censored].

Secondly, my mother is Ecuadorian and I very much consider myself Hispanic, Latin, South American, Ecuadorian culturally, whatever way you wish to see it, it doesn't bother me.
I don't believe that anyone has said that an Ecuadorian thinks or believes him/herself to be a Spaniard and I can tell you that Ecuadorians are just as proud as the next person of their nationality.
As for my face and colour of skin, which is what you ERT seem to classify people by, is I'm proud to say typically Latina...however, I'm just as much Pakistani (father) as I am Ecuadorian and equally I pass as a Pakistani. Actually my dad would often be confused as a Spaniard while in Spain. What does that say about the Spanish people eh?
Those boys in the photo could be Argentinian, as any other nationality, that's why your reasoning proves nothing.

ERT even if you did have the [censored] to put your contact details in your profile for me to contact you that is not the point.
You have 'personally' insulted me publicly, but that's enough of that.
'...al buen entendedor pocas palabras..' Laura Esquivel(Mexicana). I've got better things to do.

'....A pesar de las diferencias que solemos buscar,
Respiramos el mismo aire, despertamos al mismo sol, nos alumbra la misma luna, necesitamos sentir amor.
Hay tanto tiempo que hemos perdido por discutir
Por diferencias que entre nosotros no deben existir, Las costumbres, raices y herencias que hacen quien soy
Son colores de un arcoiris, acordes de un mismo son,....
hablemos el mismo idioma y asi las cosas iran mejor..'
en la union hay un gran poder
orgullosos de ser Latinos no importa de donde, todo podemos vencer
No importa de donde seas todos somos hermanos...' Gloria Estefan (Cuba) ayy los timbales..

I am with Miche (and with Fernando 100%, of course, that goes without saying ); ERT, physical appearances (skin colour,...) seem to be very important to you; I personally doubt that I have more things in common with someone from Argentina or Uruguay whose origins are 100% Dutch or Italian, than with a native Colombian, Mexican, Ecuadorian or Peruvian whose colouring might be a little darker....

Very well put, Miche and Pim!

Miche, Pim,& Fernando,

Your parents must be very proud of the three of you, I know I would be if any of you were my children! I echo your sentiments.
I believe that people are the sum of all of their parts: their character, their ability to love; thier compassion,their intelligence, etc, and I find it extremely sad when people are trivialized because of their skin color, religion, sex, or national origin.

It's a sad situation for both the person being sterotyped and the person doing the stereotyping.

Bless you!

First
I don`t think it is worth the pain worrying about Dame Edna. God knows, maybe we are all wrong, and the author wanted to mock at xenophobic Anglos, instead of Spanish-speakers. Anyway, I would hate becoming one of those whining "speak pc or I will feel harassed" minorities. The right response would just be writing an article joking at English speakers, that is all!
Then I have to say I agree with ERT on the point that we have almost nothing in common with South Americans. At times, not even the language: Quechua is still spoken in Bolivia and Peru, along with many other Indian languages. Skin colour does not to matter, but the fact is, most of the population in Central and South America, and the Caribbean too, have mixed ancestry, or just pure Indian or African ancestry. Now these people have not lost their inheritance, they were not transformed into Castilians after the Spanish conquest. All of them, Mexicans, Peruvians, Cubans, still keep their non-Spanish traditions and values well alive. Of course, Miche, you can feel proud of your Ecuadorian ancestry! You should. I think the culture of the Andes is so ancient, rich and fascinating! and so alien to us, Europeans! As to religion, I am a brought-up catholic (now unbeliever), and don`t have much to do with Christian-African "santeria" from Cuba, nor with the rich combination of Catholicism and Pre-Columbian beliefs that are held in the countries of Euro-Indian population (Mexico, Guatemala, Peru, Ecuador and Bolivia mainly).
We have been told millions of times that we "share" something more than language with South Americans. In my opinion, that can be true only if we ignore all the variety and richness of South American cultures. Assuming "uniformity" as true means scorning the non-Spanish part of all those countries. That seems quite racist, to me.
It was Miguel Angel Asturias, from Guatemala, who first put Indian heritage as a topic for literature, in books like "Hombres del Maiz". He was mid-Indian himself. Now the natives of Chiapas claim to rescue their culture from European supremacy. What do you think about all that?
Please, even into Spain there is such an inmense cultural variation from the North to the south, from Catalan-speakers to Spanish-speakers! And you want us to be all the same as the Tarahumara Indians?

hey everybody

i have to say i agree about 100% with ERT and CARMENM and i find quite odd what the other spaniards pim and especially fernandos opinions about their conection with latin americans.i also think its not racsm to point this fact out.i dnt want to get into the subject cause tha will get too excited and might me seem like im ERT.the one thing i dont agree with you ERT is when you consider argentina the only country "so like spain" ACTUALY NO COUNTRY looks more like spain in culture and everything is portugal besides that theres no country thats similar to spain.why do you all think theres a spanish dicho(saying) that states "spain is different" i think thiss means something. and yes alot of argentinians look like spaniards especially the northern spanish type BUT...but they are like pim said(and this i agree wih you pim)is that they are more culturelly incined to gaucho and non-spanish europe.for example they drink mate we spaniards(i am half spaniard and half cuban)drink cafe or te.they eat excessive amounts of meat and we eat excessive amount of fruits of the sea(fish and seafood of all kinds)they even have tea time like the british and we dont we have a bocadillo as "teatime".also they dont even tlk like us they seem to talk a spanish like laura pausini and erros ramazotti if you know what i mean.yes the argentians are very european-like but not speciafically spanish.i actully think we are the hispanics and they are latinos due to their intense mixture of non-hispanic races.

Well hello again,
PC? PC that all South Americans are rude? (Hostel Playa thread, but insinuated by ERT), or that some are less Hispanic than Argentinians? All I'm saying is that there are fatal flaws in ERT's reasoning

Firstly, and I have said this already, the cultural differences between say an Ecuadorian and a Spaniard ARE huge YES!!
You have to be deaf, blind and ignorant to think otherwise. That all Ecuadorians and other South Americans think of themselves as Spanish is also rubbish and actually most Ecuadorians are Catholics not Catholic/Pre-Colombian.

I don't have a problem with people being PC or non PC but one can use sane and reasonable arugments for putting forward their opinions.

The two examples illustrated by ERT of different facial features and colour could both be Ecuadorian. ie, we have blacks, indian, mestizo, whites, reds in Ecuador. I'm sorry but I feel i'm stating the obvious.
To think one would treat a white Ecuadorian differently to an Indian Ecuadorian is amazing, that to me means that in fact ERT is not racist against Ecuadorians but to the Indian race from the North of the Andes to the South(and that includes Argentina)and blacks it seems.

I can 100% repect someone who just plainly says they dislike a race, which is what I think ERT would like to say but just doesn't come right out, but uses tonterias to try and convince and brainwash.
Thank you Carmen for saying i 'can' feel proud of my parents, I am.

As for the Vanity Fair article, after the initial shock of realising it was 'THE' Dame Edna I then came to the conclusion that in fact what she might of meant is that Spanish is a colossal and important language, it just came out all wrong.

To tell people not to use the word 'Hispanic' is telling people what to do and how to think. Who is telling who what to be and what to say here?
Guapetona chooses to say "Hispanics" I'm fine with that.
A Cuban can understand the Spaniard and the Spaniard an Ecuadorian, the Ecuadorian the Argentinian, WHY?-Spanish-and WHY is this?
And that's all it boils down to.

Carmenm says
"something" somewhat contradicts with "all".
""SOMETHING"", 'some' being the key word Carmenm.

When I mentioned PC language I wasn`t thinking on ERT, I just meant that it would be a nuisance if Dame Edna, or anyone, had to watch their words in order not to annoy anyone. Where is our sense of humor, please? Every nation has always laughed at the next, and the only right response it is to laugh back, not to ‘feel offended’. The contrary would just be too boring. Spanish speakers have written good pieces against Anglos, like “Oda a Roosevelt” from Ruben Dario, but I haven`t heard the Anglos complaining about it.
As to Catholic-pre Columbian religion, well...I have seen lots of tv programs about festivals in Indian communities, where both influences are strongly mixed. Here in Spain the same happens - for example, Nuestra Senora del Rocio, Our Lady of the Dew, which is the most important Catholic sanctuary in Andalucia, bears many elements from Pre-Christian worshipping of Demeter.
When I said that you “can” feel etc... of course I was just stating the obvious.
Something more than language? Yeah, we write with the same alphabet. But tell me, do I, Spaniard, have more in common with, say, a Chicano fellow from LA, or with an Italian person? With Rigoberta Menchu, or with a Catalan peasant from South Eastern France? (yes, there is a French Catalonia, too). We are just Europeans...
As to all that "Hispanic"-"latino" stuff, I don`t know exactly what do you mean, ERC and you

Hola Guapetona, here are a couple of interesting articles!

The Sacramento Bee Carried this story by Diana Griego Erwin:

Diana Griego Erwin: Vanity Fair columnist's 'advice' was no laughing matter to Latinos

By Diana Griego Erwin -- Bee Staff Writer
Published 2:15 a.m. PST Sunday, February 9, 2003
Earlier this week, Sacramento's Rene Aguilera added her name to one of many Internet petitions making its way to the offices of Vanity Fair in New York City.
She is but one of thousands incensed over an offensive item appearing in the magazine's pretentious "Ask Dame Edna" column.

While those familiar with the contrived Dame Edna Everage may understand her theatrically uninhibited, illiberal style, the magazine's Latina readers found her comments in the February issue neither comic nor witty. I don't call Dame Edna "contrived" to be mean. She is, in fact, the high-strung alter ego of comedian Barry Humphries.

While a dissertation on why a high-culture, slick magazine like Vanity Fair has a man posing as a woman writing an advice column might be in order, I'll leave that to someone in academia.

The point is, intentionally or not, Dame Edna snubbed the nation's huge Spanish-speaking population -- and they aren't laughing.

"I was infuriated ... ," Aguilera wrote to the editors. "Dame Edna ... responded using cheap, two-dimensional stereotypes of Latinos and Latin Americans, revealing not only her racism but also her profound ignorance of who we are."

So what did Dame Edna tell "Torn Romantic" of Palm Beach, who needed advice on which foreign language to study?

"Dear Torn:

"Forget Spanish. There's nothing in that language worth reading except Don Quixote, and a quick listen to the CD of "Man of La Mancha" will take care of that. There was a poet named Garcia Lorca, but I'd leave him on the intellectual back burner if I were you. As for everyone's speaking it, what twaddle! Who speaks it that you are really desperate to talk to? The help? Your leaf blower? Study French or German, where there are at least a few books worth reading, or, if you're American, try English."

Latin American readers disagreed. Vehemently. In writing. In just a couple of days, one of the many petitions that came my way had traveled from New York City to Houston, Miami, Tampa, Costa Rica, San Diego and on to Sacramento.

Last week, the 1.1 million-circulation magazine issued a response to angry readers.

"Vanity Fair regrets that certain remarks in our February issue ... caused offense to our readers and others," it reads.

"In the role of Dame Edna, Humphries practices a long comedic tradition of making statements that are tasteless, wrongheaded, or taboo with an eye toward exposing hypocrisies or prejudices. Anyone who has seen Dame Edna's over-the-top performances on TV or in the theater knows that she is an equal-opportunity distributor of insults, and her patently absurd comments about Spanish literature and Spanish speakers were offered in the spirit of outrageous comedy and were never intended to be taken to heart. Vanity Fair will respond to its readers in the April 2003 issue."

In another world, another time, that might be enough. Unfortunately, satire requires that audiences recognize its ridiculousness. The trouble is, many Americans hold misguided perceptions about those Spanish speakers. They don't realize we are Nobel Prize winners, Rhodes scholars, Pulitzer Prize winners, advisers to presidents.

"We speak Spanish," Aguilera pointed out in her letter, "but we also speak fluent English and many of us speak other languages as well.

" ... If Dame Edna were even remotely cultured or educated, she would have read and lost herself in the exquisite writings of Nobel Prize winners Octavio Paz, Gabriel Garcia-Marquez, and Pablo Neruda. She would know that Sor Juana Inez de la Cruz was one of the first feminists and poets in the Americas.

" ... And of course, if it had not been for us, the world would not know chocolate! And everyone knows life would not be worth living without chocolate."

Yes, we're witty, too.

Ironically, the Vanity Fair issue featuring this column had the actress Salma Hayek on its cover. She, too, speaks Spanish.

...
On a February 14, article of the Guardian Unlimited

_____________
An apology would be nice!

I can agree with both sides of the argument here. ERT seems to be displeased with how Spaniards and all Latin American nations have been thrown into the same box. The only true "hispanics" are those from "Hispania", which is another word for Iberia. So, the Spaniards and Portugese are truely who you're referring to when you're talking about the "hispanics". Many people from Latin America are of at least partial Hispanic descent, so I do also with Fernando, et al. I think ERT was simply trying to illustrate the fact that there is indeed a difference between the people in Iberia and the people in Latin America. I agree, and it's a pretty loose term to just call them all "hispanics". Probably not the right word to use. The analogy to Anglos and Jamaicans, South Africans, etc. hits the nail on the head.

Hasta Luego

I would not waste my breath (just a metaphor) arguing with someone with deep-seated resentments like ERT's, other than to let him/her know that many people do not share that specific pathology, and that these are often called happy people.

When, under "Hostels and Other Lodgings," topic "Warning: Madrid's Hostal Playa," someone complained of a rude reception-desk clerk, the same individual above was quick to conclude, on absolutely no evidence, that the offender had to be a "Southamerican mestizo immigrant" (sic). That is a texbook example of prejudice. Years of therapy won't cure that, much less rational argument.

Perhaps if you ignore her, she will go away, or move to Argentina.

I have to say in pro of Edna that I find funny the last sentence 'if you're American, try English'.
About the similitudes between Spain and Latin America, I think that the Spanish conquerors and priest did a lot of work with it, like Romans did before with us. I was this summer in Peru, and I think there are very big difference inside this country, of course I didn't found anything in common with the small communities in Titicaca, but it was different in the towns, I could feel more in common with a Peruvian than with a German. I don't know but I think there's more cultural interchange between Spain and Peru than between Spain and German, doesn't matter if Vargas Llosa has an european heritage, he's one of the most readen writers here and there... and so on ...
By the way, I still don't know which are the western values

Miguelito,
I agree with you 100 %! Whenever one travels in the Caribbean, South and Central America the roots of Spanish culture are evident everywhere.

The first, and I believe the most lasting place is in the beautiful Cathedrals and Basilicas that abound in Cuba, Mexico,Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, Costa Rica, Columbia, Venezuela,Chile, Argentina, etc.

Besides the religious rituals, like procesions and romerias, there are other similarities in customs, manners, dress, and most importantly in attitude and thought. The Spanish custom of curtesy, which we all admire is evident in Iberoamerica. The acculturation is there for all to see.

True, there are differences. No one can argue that the Amerindians have beautiful cultures as well. In Spain you just have to visit the Museo Archeologico de las Americas in Seville, Spain to see the beauty of the amerindian culture.What could Spain be without chocolate, as someone has already mentioned.

You can go to any bar in Madrid right now to see the African roots of the Caribbean-american music like Salsa!

It was, and still is in this ambiance of cultural blending, that the Spanish Roccoco came alive in the Americas. And you can see it best in the cathedrals and basilicas.

That culture brought over by our forefathers blended with the Amerindindian culture, and later with the African culture which our forefathers brought over from Africa, to form the people of today in the Americas. To me a mixture of color, sounds and all things beautiful!

What did we become? Some people call us Latinos, other Hispanics, others Spanish-speakers, whatever. The bottom line is that you cannot erase history. The impact of the Spanish culture in the Americas is too great! Notice I say the Americas, because you can see the impact here in Florida as well, visit San Augustin/St. Augustine!

So now, its the turn of these people of Spanish and Amerindian ancestry to visit Spain and perhaps emmigrate there. And why not?

After all, in all fairness, their countries were good enough for our intrepid forefathers to settle when things in Spain were bad. We owe a lot to the patience and acceptance of the Amerindian cultures that accepted us when we were in need.

Now it is their turn to be intrepid and seek out better opportunities. Legal immigration, on the long run benefits both the immigrant and the country she/he immigrates. Look at the Spanish diaspora in the mid to late 1800's to Iberoamerica. These Spaniards brought skills and new ideas to the fledgling countries in the Americas.

To deny them the privilege of immigration would be a cruel way to pay back these ancient peoples who welcomed our own many centuries ago.

The problem is the culture shock that takes place.
Most people adapt and accept this change. Spain is the perfect example of a country visited by many cultures! The Spaniards of today are the result of many invasions of immigrants, as is most of Europe, over an expanse of several thousand years...Phonicians, Greeks, Romans, Celts, Goths, etc.

What makes today's immigration so fearful to some is that with todays transportation system it is very simple for people to migrate from one location to another in days. Wherein in the past it took decades for immigrant groups to settle, now it takes hours to fly from Lima,Peru to Madrid, Spain.

However, to those who suffer from xenophobia, this change becomes too challenging and perhaps their fear too great. Sadly some resort to bigotry and maligning of other cultures.

That's my humble opinion.

Going back to Dame Edna, like I told Jo earlier, I find Edna hilarious, when she talks about fashion, politics, etc! However, what made me very displeased as a professional that deals in books, a librarian, is that to me one crosses the line when one attacks a culture's literature.

I take literature very seriously. Because literature embodies the soul of a nation. It's the only cultural artifact that best transcends time. Ideas, thoughts, all of these are alive in literature.

Spanish literature is second to none. The top three fictional characters most quoted are:
# 1) Don Quijote; #2) Hamlet, and #3) Faust!
But, as I mentioned to Esperanza, in the thread about the Generation of '98, I am aghast that the Norton Anthology of World Literature only listed one Spaniard, Lorca in its 20th century list, there were several English, French, and German writers, but only one Spaniard! What about writers like Machado, Unamuno, Ortega Y Gasset, Jimenez, Pardo Bazon,gomez de la Serna, Arniches, Jardiel Poncela, Ayala, Alberti... the list is lengthy.

So you can say that Dame Edna got my Goat :p
Besides as educators, if we don't stand up and defend literature, who will? I feel the same way about American literature, I'll black anybody's eye who maligns Mark Twain!

Booklady!

At the risk of getting involved in all of this... first I'll admit I haven't read every single last word of the posts, but I do believe that I have read enough and through personal experience to say:

The major argument (or so it seems to me) that Spaniards don't hold ANY common culture with Latin Americans- I'd have to say that's not true. However, I also don't believe we have the same culture, because we don't. I think- and those from both views will probably agree- that we share common roots (as we (spaniards) invaded Latin America and most certainaly left our mark! I also think you'll agree that as a mix of Spanish (and other european settlers- lets not forget the portugese, french and english that came later) and indian, that Latin Americans developed another culture of their own- in which sometimes it is very much like our own, and other times it is entirely different. Yes?

As far as the different skin tones and people treating each other differently accordingly- name me 1 place in the WORLD that doesn't happen! It still doesn't make it right! But to differentiate between Columbian or Ecuadorian or Spanish, well I think to some extent that's good- because as many of you have said- yes, there is a need to make distinctions because only learning the differences of one group to another, can you appreciate the different cultures

And ERT- what you say about being of Pure European descent... well- I think that after 500 years, everyone has mixed so much you really can't say! So because someone who comes from Latin America can claim that their Great, great, great, great whatever came from europe that makes them different? Sorry to say, but I think at some point in their family history- everyone will be able to make a connection somewhere! There are some that can make a much closer connection.. but I'd be starting an entirely different thread- but yes, I have witnessed people from Puerto Rico, DR, Cuba etc. act in an entirely different manner according to how one can make a connection back to Spain- and how you're seen as more special if the connection is closer, and as more 'run of the mill' if the connection is farther. Curious thing is, that many of those who can even say it was as near as their great-grandparent or just grandparent- was the last time any real family ties were held- and the children and grandchildren have only been there on vacations (if that) and have completely lost the family connections they once had (surely parts of those families are still there- but once contact has been lost...)

As far as immigration goes... that's a complicated, multilayered, loaded topic. There's nothing wrong with immigration-it is a good thing- Honestly! How many of us would be here (exist) if it weren't for immigration?! However I do believe that if you decide to move anywhere that it is to contribute to the society you have chosen to live in- if you're not going to do that then no, I don't think you should go anywhere but live wherever you're from-period! If a person can't be constructive- at the very least don't be destructive!

This is one of those topics that really gets nowhere, especially ERT as you say- through the internet. And all of this started because of Dame Edna's stupid comment?

Morning all,

Booklady and Miguel it is so true what you say about the similarities. The architecture, the church, the cities and towns....
Honestly one of the reasons,(one of many), I love Madrid is because some things, and i'm not sure what at times, make me feel like I'm in South America. Ok, it could be the Latin Americans there and a walk through the 'Retiro' is like teleportation to... you name it.
But yes i'd have to say the mannerisms and other characteristics too.
Take bullfighting for example, Quito has one of the world's largest bull arenas in the world, after Mexico I think. But even in small provincial towns and cities the running of the bull and other related events accompanied religious festivals and holidays just like Spain. When I was in Puente la Reina, Navarra, on the festivity day of 'Santiago' July 26th the whole town was celebrating and preparing for their bulls, the night before was a huge juerga frenzy, music and the way people behaved was I have to say exactly like in South America that I felt right at home.
Though born in the UK, I never feel at home here.
I know the majority of Spaniards abhor bullfighting and hate the stereotyping associations, like Flamenco dancers jeje, but you can't get away with denying the fact of it's huge influence in the Americas.
As for manners/politness, and this is my opinion ok!! I actually think the Latin Americans are exasperatingly over polite...there I said it.
But maybe that's how Spanish courtesy was when the first Spanish settlers went over. Also,...erghmm (big breath), a Spanish teacher here in London said that South Americans have maintained a closer resemblance to 'real' Castellano than modern Spaniards themselves :p there again he's an Argentinian -to dig my grave deeper-,
I also heard on the radio that the castillian adopted the 'lisp' not to offend, or was it in jest of, their king who had a profound lisp problem but this mimicking action spread and stuck. I must must look this up
Hey it's Friday so let's not start a blood bath please. The conquistadores did enough of that..opps jejeje

This i do know, and that is that the mentality of the Inquisition not only enforced the natives of the new world,by religious and other means, to speak the Spanish language, but also the Gypsies who arrived and settled around that period in Spain.
Though Spain did not expel the Gypsies like they did the Moors, the Gypsies were by law prohibited to speak their own language, socialise, dress and trade as their predecessors and culture required but were encouraged to take on all characteristics of the 'payo' and it was encouraged/forced that Spaniards were to marry the Gypsy in the hope that eventually the gypsy 'trait' would soon dissintegrate and become obsolete.
Breaking the law meant death. It's amazing how close to home the Inquisition resonated.

Having watched the "Dame Edna Experience" on TV a few times, prior to visiting this thread, I have to say just about everything the person who portrays this part says is pointed humor. Nothing can be take seriously, or even considered serious. It's satirical comedy at best, and in poor taste, but still amusing to others, at its worst. In my case, I would rather watch re-runs of The Beverly Hillbillies than Edna. But that's my choice, and obviously a lot of people watch Edna, or it wouldn't be on TV.

I agree with Bookie that there have been far too many Spanish writers who have been overlooked in ratings for the 20th Century. I think part of that stems from the fact that there wasn't as much open communion between Spanish mainstream writing and the rest of the world, while Franco was around. That's natural, and we saw that as well from Russian writers. It's a "snub" made often because of political reasons.

As I went through this thread, I also began to think of something else. Everyone who lives in "The Americas" is an American. Regardless of our ethnic backgrounds, languages, and differences, we are mostly mongrel breeds with mixed heritages that have enriched who we are, and what we are. I doubt that any nation can say that there isn't at least a little bit of the old world in our cultures.

What makes our world so interesting is this vast mix of cultures, beliefs, and heritages. We are, without doubt, the Americas, and we are the "melting pot" of history.

As to whether or not we want to call ourselves French, German, Spanish, or Portuguese (just to mention a few), we all have one thing in common. We are Americans, and we have a degree of pride in where our roots come from. It would be nice if these rich cultures from across the seas recognized us as being part of their families as well, since we've carried on traditions that were germain to their existence so long ago. It's time to set aside differences based on which continent we were born on, and recognize we are all one big family, and owe each other respect for that heritage.

If I was Spanish, and someone from Ecuador, Mexico, or Argentina claimed they were of Spanish ancestory, I would be proud to know that they thought that highly of their ancestors beginnings. It's a complement, not an insult.

Wolf (A mongrel breed by anyone's standards, and proud of all the ethnic heritage within.)

Wolf,
You are the quintessential diplomat! No one could have said it better!

Bookie

I managed to get a copy of Feb's issue and the illustrated cartoon related to the 'letter' is of a tourist wearing one of those large Mariachi sombreros asking an armadillo for what appears to be directions and the armadillo replying,...
?habla espanol?
I really OBJECT now!! well maybe i'll just roll into my bone plated self in retreat. :p

Saludos,
Charango.
www.ancient-future.com/guitar/charango.html