17,900 to 187, Wow!

It's obvious Gibraltarians don't want to see the Rock become part of Spain. That's kind of a lopsided vote if you ask me. I guess that will end Jack Straw's idea of a transition to dual control for a while.

Whether or not this "unimportant vote" will have an effect on the future of the Rock, it sure must be making waves in UK political circles. It makes me wonder how the people in the UK itself would vote, in regards to this issue. I also wonder if Spaniards would really vote overwhelmingly, to take Gibraltar back.

This issue does link itself to Basque seperatism and the fate of the two Spanish cities in Morocco. Not necessarily directly, but indirectly, since each of the three is a question that begs answering over sovereignty. Whenever one of these issues comes up, the other two are bound to follow suit, as soon as possible. These questions may not be answered in any of our lifetimes. About the time we figure we have the answer to one of the issues - we don't.

Wolf

Still, their views are changing, Wolf, because last time they had this referendum in 1967 only 44 people voted yes!

Wolf, I hardly thing that the Basque question is an appropriate comparison. That is another issue entirely, spaniards wanting to debilitate their region and seperate themselves (and as always, its that noisy minority!-only under threat do they overwhelmingly vote for it!)

On the other hand, the Ceuta and Melilla... well, they are holdings spain has in another country. A WHOLE different ball game, but yes, more directly correlated with Gibraltar!

But are we really going to rehash the whole basque region issue!?
:o

If I was gibraltarian I would also have voted yes

If not for the tax paradise I would have done it for the tobacco contraband or perhaps the thousands of companies which are registrated there to evade taxes from Spain or EU. But never mind, I'm not gibraltarian at all.

¡Gibraltar español!

Fernando

Espe,

Aren't you stretching it a bit? I never said anything about the Basque issue, and never said the issue was the same, or wasn't the same. I simply stated that the issues in Morocco and Basque Country would continue to crop up whenever the issue of Gibraltar comes up. If you can't see that it will, too bad. It will happen.

Geez! Read what I said. :o Don't read in what you want to read for the sake of arguing.

Wolf

Did the monkeys get to vote as well? That might have raised the total.

je je You and what army?

Myself alone toddy

I think Gibraltar should end to be either a shared town or totally spanish, and that it should be granted big autonomy, but it lacks of any sense nowadays if they want to be european soil. Negotiation is the only way to achieve that, but I really don't mind if it becomes spanish tomorrow or in the next 50 years, the later they find an agreement the worse for them (gibraltarians).

Fernando

Wolf,
No I don't think I'm stretching it a bit, Yes I did read what you said.. maybe you should go back and re-read it. You were the one who said that the issues were linked... and that when one cropped up, the other 2 would follow suit.

And sorry, but no, I'm not trying to be the devil's advocate or argue for the sake of arguing. I think my reply was valid and pertinant to your posting. I try to be careful and answer accordingly, which is why many times I re-read a posting before I respond. I acknowledge your response and respect it, however I don't agree with it.

If you want to be British why cant u go live in Britain instead of in other countries that dont belong to u.????????

Espe,

"A link, direct or in-direct, dealing with the issue of sovereignty," only draws attention to the fact that one or both of the other two issues will be brought up every time the third surfaces. It's natural for this to happen, but in this case, probably moreso because they all deal with what people on both sides of all three issues indicate is sovereign lands. There's absolutely nothing in that statement that should make you feel the need to defend Spain and what the people believe is their rights to land, unless you're paranoid about the issue.

Like Anchovy kindly pointed out, there's a lot more gibraltarians showing interest in being part of Spain than there was forty years ago. From forty some to this new figure, that's progress. even if it's slow.

I like Fernando's approach. Negotiate. In time, Gibraltar may very well become Spanish soil again. If it takes 50 years, so what?

But "cutting them off from the world" by blocking the highways, etc.... isn't going to make that happen. If you want people to think your way, you do it through mutual respect, not by trying to create another "Berlin airlift," like the Soviet Union caused after WWII. That's not the diplomacy indulged by nations with respect for each other, who are considered friendlies. You only blockade the enemy, and that's what Gibraltarians perceive as the way Spain is handling this matter. Please note. This is not "my" point of view, but that of Gibraltarians.

Wolf

I would agree with wolf that there are many different sovereignty issues going on. Also wasn´t there some talk in the Spanish government about a referendum in West Sahara? Let´s just hope that none of them end up like Florida....

Oh lordy! Wolf, let it go already! I'm not paranoid about the issue, I was sharing my point of view relating to what you said. You already responded that I misinterpreted what you wrote, and although I didn't and still don't agree, I AM able to agree to disagree on that point and CAN discuss the rest of it. Now, if instead of moving on after what is obviously a lack of ability for us to communicate since you want to keep butting your head into a wall, you go ahead. I pass.

As for Gibraltar specificially, I agree, it doesn't matter if it takes 50 years or not... but there does need to be more shared responsibility and authority in governing the rock, to protect them, and spain (as in the case of drug smuggling, etc.). There needs to be more cooperation, hopefully someday, and soon.

I read once that the first Spanish democratic leader was told by the British that, "you can catch a lot more bees with honey than with vinegar."

I would add to that "a little humility goes a long way."

It looks as though the proud Spanish once again cannot accept the fact that they cannot dominate the world like they once did. (expect little north african colonized territories and islands).

You go Mr. Caruana! I would fight along side this leader to protect Gibraltar any day!

Mr Caruana can go to hell

Interesting.

Spanish government has been negotiating this issue for 25 years, and has make proposoals of co-sovereignity in which UK and Spain would shared Gibraltar for 100 years from now, granting UK permission to use not only Gibraltar's seaport and airport but other spanish ports as Tarragona and Rota (as the US is doing right now). If that is not being patient then, what is?

Anyway, Ceuta and Melilla (which have been mentioned in this thread) are not colonies... yes, stop laughing boys. They are not colonies because have the same status as any other region in Spain, have an autonomy treaty, have senators and parlamentaries in Madrid Congreso de los Diputados and Senate. Moreover, they have never being moroccian, they were pirate ports which were conquered by spaniards and for the spanish kingfom in XVth century. And finally, Ceuta is 20 Km away from the Iberian Peninsula, and Melilla is almost as far as it is Menorca, and much near than the Canarian Islands.

Is Istambul greek for being in european soil instead of in african soil. No, it is turkish.

Fernando

When is Gibraltar going to hand over the sandy isthmus which the air port lies on back to Spain it was not included in the treaty of Utrech. It is leggaly part of Spain. Ok now lets get one thing straight here Gibraltar needs Spain,SPain does not need Gibraltar. Thats why they complain so much about border delays they want to be able to avoid paying Spanish taxes and at the same time enjoying the benefits of Spain. And this may sound a little paranoid but very possible the Gibs may claim more land or occupie more land if there are no Border Restrictions they would probably buy much of the land on the other side of the border are we supposed to stand by and let Spain become colonized I dont think so.. Gibraltar is a parasite.

hmmmmm, very educated post, no?

Why is it that whenever some far-flung corner of the world comes under British soverignty, they never want to give it up? Falklands, Hong Kong, and now Gibralter. All wished to stay under the Crown rather than revert to local control. Perhaps the 'colonised' see just how good they have it.

Rule Britanna!

Love, The USA

You go Kurt!
You rule!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Todd u made of fun my post u bastard

Kurt,your generalization is incorrect.
There are many former colonies that did not want to live under British rule. Didn't the U.S.A. chose to leave British sovereignty in 1776? Also, didn't India succeed in their fight to leave the British empire in 1947?

Booklady-
Is the USA a 'far-flung corner of the world?' Or India? No, These are independent nations wholly capable of exercising their independence without support of other nations. Now, compare these( FYI-your examples) with small, powerless nations such as Hong Kong, Belize, Gibralter, Falklands or East Timor. These small, powerless states have no hope of independence without UK (or Australian (very much like the British)) support. So, I say GO UK! GO AUSTRALIA! Support the freedom of these nations!
OK. Other than that , GO BEARS!!
Kurt

When I started this thread, it was my intent to see what people's views were of the Gibraltar situation, not to get people insensed enough to cuss at each other. That's my mistake. I knew it was a touchy issue, but didn't realize how strong people's beliefs were. I apologize.

What I have gathered from it though is that there might be some underlying reasons why Gibraltarians don't want to be part of Spain. Fernando brought something up that interested me in that direction. Is the fight to maintain Gibraltar purely a financial one? Is it a refuge for low prices, wherein Spain's prices and taxes are the issue?

If that's true, my guess is that people would lean towards their pocket books. Personally, I vote during elections, for what I think serves my personal wants and needs best. Why would I expect anything different from anyone else, no matter where they live?

I see both Kurt's and Booklady's points. Some people are happy being colonials, others aren't. I think - in the past - that the biggest reason many nations wanted out from colonial rule was because they felt capable of fending for themselves, as a nation, unemcumbered, by outside political influences and militaries. On the other hand, there are those smaller nations who feel a sense of security when they are protected by the blanket of military and economic strength, offered by the nation, or group of nations, that make up the entity.

In a way, isn't that what EU is? Nations which could actually be called states, that have bonded together intent on developing one umbrella of military and economic safeguards?

So - let's get information out here that would tell us what the advantages and disadvantages would be if the people on the Rock voted to allow Spain 100 years of dual sovereignty? I'm trying to get past the nationalism to the real reason the situation remains at an impasse.

Thanks.

Wolf

Wolf, I think there is both a pocketbook and cultural basis for the vast majority of Gibraltar. I believe not only do they see a better life in staying British, but also they identify much more with the British culture. Which in some ways is VERY different than the Spanish culture. Just look at the Faulklands. The British are VERY British there and want to remain so.
I would feel more comfortable living in Gibraltar than in Spain because I identify more with the British culture. This is due to many factors, one of which is the English language(and language is the biggest aspect of one's culture).
So basically, we must take into account both the financial and the cultural aspects of this issue.

Toddy I'm sorry but you would be somewhat dissapointed... Apart of the main Gibraltar touristical street they are quite similar to the people of the other side of the border.

They all speak spanish (also english of course), they eat lot of fried fish (pescaito frito) and have other spanish customs. Some of the work in the nearer spanish town, and also hundreds of spaniards work there. They use spanish golf parks and go on vacation to the Costa del Sol.

I understand your simpathy towards gibraltarians, but that is not a reason for them to continue in the current status. Of course they want to be british! UK is letting them make high profits with tobacco contraband, they have 10 companies per citizen (other countries businesses evading taxes) and lots of money wash.

But the problem is that EU has resolved to end all financial paradises in Europe... we will see what they would do when the golden egg is over.

Which of their rights would change with spanish sovereignity? They would be like british living in Marbella or Fuengirola. They could also opt for spanish citizenship.

UK and Spain are two friendly countries, and are also allies. Both of them are developed countries and democracies, with very similar laws, so really, really, what they would be loosing is not being british, what they would loose is all the ilegal business they have there.

¡Gibraltar Español!

Fernando

Which person in Britain doesn't like fish and chips? Which person in Britain hasn't gone on or wants to go on a cheap Spanish holiday?
They all speak spanish.......that's a stretch no?

Kurt, in 1776, the 13 British colonies in North America were "far flung"! So was India, when it became a colony of the British empire. I did not question your point, that it is economically and politically beneficial for the territories you mentioned to remain British, if it seemed that way, I apologize that I was not clear, I would agree with you there. I just questioned your generalization, there are always exceptions!

Toddy you claim Fernando may be stretching his assertions, you probably are correct there, but it seems to me that you may have done so as well, and in the same post!

Those that are allergic to fish, in addition to those that by their very nature do not like fish!

Wealthy British citizens, who dread going on any type of cheap holiday anyplace!

Fernando and Wolf,

I have a few questions I hope the two of you may answer for me. Do you know why the Gibraltarians felt they needed to vote at this time? Was their future as a British territory in question? Why would Britain want to give up Gibraltar,at this time? Gibraltar still offers an advantageous strategic position to the entrance of the Mediterranean. Would that by itself alone be a practical reason for the British to want to keep Gibraltar?

Well, they have fish and chips as one of their british specialities toddy, but I was talking about fritura, which is a typical dish of all Andalucía. They are not typical british, nor they are typical spaniards.

When you hear them talking with andalucian accent, you see the way the behave, and you see the way they think, it becomes crystal clear what they are and what they are not. Oh, and being spaniard my friend, is nothing oblivious. I am, and I can assert it is nothing unhealthy
What's more, noone is going to make them renounce to british citizenship, nor are they going to loose their properties or forced to move to UK. What is in discussion is that the soil in which they have their properties is british or spanish sovereign soil.

As for what Booklady has said:
Gibraltar is a historical demand of every spanish government since it was conquered (and it's citizens forced to move) by the british during the Succession War. The use of the istmus was granted to UK, but it didn't have any right to give it to a third part.

During some grave epidemies in the XVIIIth century british asked twice spanish governments for a temporal territory for caring for people with the disease. Both times the british occupied the territory, and both times they didn't give it back to Spain. The current Gibraltar airport is halfly built over those ilegally occupied terrains.

Aznar's government has been negotiating with Blair's government a formula to return or at least share Gibraltar between both governments. The reason is that Blair don't want to have an issue with an ally, more when Spain always block any decision concerning Gibraltar in the EU. Gibraltarians, starting to see that both governments were near to an agreement, decided to express their opinion about the issue and made the referendum.

Both nations have something to win and something to loose with an agreement. I believe that is is UK which has more to win, but they have the radical oposition of Gibraltar citizens who, in my opinion, haven't really understood that they can't be always saying no to everything, and that would have a radical boost of their economy if they had an agreement with Spain.

Fernando

Hi, I was in Gibraltar this past summer. Not all British people in Gibraltar speak Spanish!! Actually I surprised that it wasn't the way I thought it would be.

There were a LOT of Spaniards in Gibraltar (in Burger King and ALL the employees were Spaniards). And most of the British people I met didn't speak much Spanish. I was in a pub, and a Spaniard came in for a drink and the bartender had a lot of trouble communicating with him, and the Brits in the bar were "trying" to translate. I even asked them if most of the Brits spoke Spanish, and they said they speak "a little".

I thought they would accept Euros in Gibraltar, but some places only accepted Sterling, inlcuding Hotel Caleta where I stayed. We tried to get drinks there, but we only had Euros so we had to go elsewhere.

Across the plane runway in La Linea de la Concepcion I didn't see any British people.

It was a great trip.

Winston

Booklady,

I believe the vote was nothing more than to send a signal to Parliament that Gibraltarians weren't interested in any changes. On the Spanish side, it's a matter of not accepting their vote as being of any importance. The rift isn't lessening. I'm afraid, if anything, it's really getting worse.

There are so many misconceptins about the issue. Frankly, I don't think the majority of people in Britain, or in Spain, really know the whole truth. Everything seems to be slanted so far to the point of view in each nation, that it creates a lot of problems. I just read about a couple of attacks against Gibs since the vote. It wasn't right, but on the other hand, the same thing is happening in Gibraltar. A man who voted in favor of annexation with Spain was threatened so much, because his face was on TV, that he actually asked for political asylum in Spain. Neither side is right when that happens.

I think the Brits will hang onto the rock. The Rock of Gibraltar is one of The Pillars of Hercules. The other one is in Ceuta. I believe they may perceive the whole issue from a military standpoint, where ownership of the pillars constitutes total control of what does, and does not go in and out of the Atlantic Ocean, from the Mediterranean. We're less than 60 years removed from WWII, and there are so many problems on the north coast of Africa that I think it's become a question of who will, and won't, control access through the straits.

I've dug deep to find out about crime in Gibraltar, and can't find a lot. If there's a lot of illegal contraband going through, I don't know. I do know it's a "duty free" location, and that has to rankle Spain. Especially since the Gibs don't have to abide by EU law.

On the other hand, since Spain refuses to recognize the Gibs, and won't let Britain introduce or discuss the rock in EU, I don't see how this will ever end. Until the blockades at the border (conveniently terrible conditions trying to get onto the roc) stop, I don't see anyone in the Gib camp making any gestures towards a settlement.

What's a little confusing is the fact that Spain wants to claim that the rock was given to Britain, and now it belongs to a "third party." I think it's a weak claim. But at this point, that's really all they've got. They signed away their rights to the Rock, with the Ultrech treaty.

Please! No flames on the last statement! If you have facts to offer, do so, don't go off on a tangent. It's hardly productive.

Wolf

Again when is Gibraltar going to hand over its illegal claimed land!!!!!!

Thanks Wolf and Fernando for the information, I appreciate you taking the time to fill me in. Wolf, I agree with you I didn't think that the British government would want to give up such a strategic position that easily, I was curious as to why the Gibraltarians needed to vote. In a way it is sad that the people of Gibraltar feel the need to remind Parliament that they do not wish to be disenfranchised from Britain.

Fernando, may I ask, who is this third party that has the isthmus? And why is Spain blocking the taking of the issue of Gibraltar to the European Union? How can the European Union help in this situation?
Saludos

Wolf please, you are exagerating it by miles... Reading your post would make someone think that UK and Spain are near to a war or armed conflict, which is very far from the real nature of the conflict, which is only a social and political one.

I've heard nothing about agressions to gibraltarians, nor against the pro-spanish one. Anyway it is not a generalized violence. Perhaps it is just that the people from Gibraltar and La Línea de la Concepción have this issue as one in which all debates are heated.

Yesterday I asked my father what he thought of Gibraltar. He told me that he didn't care even a bit, and that Spain has a lot of graver problems. It does not represent nothing comercially or economicly for us, not even a strategic militar position.

I think this is the opinion of the majority of the spaniards. We want it back soon or late, but truely it has a relative importance, moreover if the borders in Europe are diluting.

Booklady: The third party would be gibraltarians. They can't be legal owners of Gibraltar (acording to the Utrecht Agreement).

Fernando

Fernando,
Gracias, it is much clearer now. You made an interesting statement, that I would like to ask your opinion. Do you think that it is a good thing overall for the borders of Europe to dissappear? Do you think it will happen in the near future, nest ten years?

By the way, I want to thank you and all the other informed folks, like Wolf, on this board who are taking the time to share these perspectives with the board members. If one wants to be more than a tourist, a traveler, one needs to understand all of the characteristics of a country including the present political issues affecting that country. I find these type of threads a wonderful
opportunity to learn about the circumstances affecting Spain today, and I thank you. Just so you would not think I'm just curious!

You are welcome Booklady

The answer is yes. I think that borders between european countries should dissapear for many reasons. It boosts our economies because we all have acces to a market of 300 million people, give us better education and work oportunities, make us more open-minded, at give us the oportunity of make tourism in other countries with other countries.

At last, I think that it is time for Europe to have a golden age of peace, end our historical grievances and cooperate. I won't mind to loose my spanish citizenship for a european one. Of course I feel spanish, but I feel european too. It is better to work shoulder to shoulder.

Fernando

Fernando,

Read the news from other sources than those in Madrid. There's a lot they don't publish.

______________________________________

Attacks make La Linea a danger area for Gibraltar visitors

La Linea has become a danger area for residents of Gibraltar in the wake of the referendum. People going there are being attacked.

A number of incidents have already been reported: A large number of linenses attacking Gibraltar youth, couples being molested and property being damaged.

When a group of Gibraltar youths were returning to Gibraltar in the early hours of Sunday morning after enjoying a night out in La Linea they were set upon by a group of 10 to 15 Spaniards.

In the area of the Tropicana Bar a fight broke out and the locals had to make a run towards the border, said the RGP.

TRUNCHEONS

Four of the Gibraltarians were placed inside a police van, with the use of truncheons, after the group had been stopped by the La Linea municipal police.

Two of them sustained minor injuries. They supplied the Spanish police with statements and were later allowed to leave.

The commotion was such that people started congregating on this side of the frontier. Insults were being hurled across the way People had to be moved on by the RGP.

Thee are reports of local couples being molested while in La Linea, and other reports speak of motorcycle tyres being slashed and cars being scratched.

It is said that there are groups of people in La Linea who appear to be on the look-out for Gibraltar people and property, mainly at night.

The fact that the people of Gibraltar have democratically decided what they want cannot be taken in by some in La Linea, and indeed, elsewhere in Spain.

NOT UNDERSTOOD

It is as if Gibraltarians have to say that they wish to be Spanish even if they wish to remain being what they are. Many in Spain interpret the referendum result as being anti-Spanish, which it is not, in the sense that if the people of Gibraltar were asked if they wanted to be French or what-have-you, they would also say No.

Spaniards refuse to face the reality of the situation, which is that the Gibraltarians are a people in their own right - and it is as unreasonable as it is insulting to keep asking if you want to be Spanish or want Gibraltar to be Spanish, as the planned sovereignty deal envisages.

The mayor of Los Barrios Sr Alonso Rojas says he does not agree that relations could deteriorate, and points out to the thousands of Spaniards who come to Gibraltar to work etc without problems and the fact that a large contingent of Spanish media were here to cover the referendum without any incidents.

That is the case. It is not the Spanish in Gibraltar who are subject to abuse, but Gibraltarians visiting Spain...

--------------------------------------------
http://www.panorama.gi/

This is just one of several sources. I used this specifically because you don't need passwords to get in. As for my saying they are nearly at war, that's not true. You're conjuring this up in your mind, sorry. But I do know one thing -- if the Spanish fishing fleet thinks they will have over 40 boats in Irish waters next year, they're going to have some problems that won't be pretty there.

Wolf

Oh sorry, I didn't realise I was using the media of the dictatorship and not the always truthful press of Gibraltar...

Wolf I didn't question the truth of your sources, I was just saying that it is not a generalized thing. And I didn't sayed the spanish media has not published it, I just said I haven't seen it (at least yet). Gibraltarians and the people of the near spanish villages and towns have always been in bad terms, that is not new. The referendum has only given both of them fuel to continue it.

Keep in mind that a lot of spaniards work in Gibraltar, and lots of gibraltarians work in spanish near towns.

I didn't understood this last one sorry.

Fernando

Fernando, I agree with you, except for the loosing spanish nationality for european one. But come to think of it, I guess it would end up being something more the way the United States is set up- each state has an individual ID, but we all share the same passport.

However, in the US, we have the advantage of sharing a common language (for the most part!). However, I don't think the EU is so far away from what you say, so what if the europeans don't share a passport, I already think that there is much more cooperation between the countries than there was before, after all, that's half the reason the EU works! As in the US, each state, has their own constitution and laws, but in the end have to abide by the federal constitution and laws, states don't loose their identity but manage to live in harmony with the rest. How is the EU much more different from this?

If the EU were to develop a common language that people could use beside there native language what do you think it would be English..???

Maybe it wont be one dominant language but all of them equally respected. Is Esperanto still alive?

Espe3, that was precisely what I thought when Fernando made his remark about dissolving borders. It works well here in the States, where in any one city you can hear a multitude of languages. A friend of mine who is a 4th grade teacher in Jacksonville, told me that in her classroom she has 9 children who each speak a different language!

Anchovy, please accept my sincere apologies! I was mistaken! I edited my post.

No apologies needed! Just thought I'd blinked and missed something!

I don`t know a word on Gibraltar, but I know someone who does, a certain Dieter Haller (a German, supposedly a neutral fella, uh?) who made an interesting field word upon this issue:
http://amor.rz.hu-berlin.de/~h0920cyt/PANO.html
Anyway, I think anyone should support beforehand the will freely expressed by the 99% of any etnic group.

This is a fact?

Just my thoughts but... do really any etnic group decide the future of a piece of land? In my opinion no.

If I gather a group of spaniards, go to some unhabited piece of coast (for example of France) occupy it and stablish there... do I have any right to claim self determination for it just because I live there?

Remember that UN made a resolution in which it call for a descolonization of Gibraltar.

In my opinion the solution is pretty simple: Make a long term agreement of co-sovereignity, let gibraltarians choose their nationality, respect their properties and current rights, and let british make use of any militar bases needed. That way everyone should be happy.

Fernando

If only life were so simple.....
Let it go Spain. The rock is British and will remain so, FOREVER!!!!!
(Until Spain gets back the Armada, then maybe they can claim something, until then, aaaaaadios)

A group of Spaniards beating up a Gibraltarian HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAA ok ok..... sorry I souldn't laught at that

Quintos,

Personally I found nothing funny about gangs of people who have no more to do than beat up on others. Are you saying it's okay for Spaniards to beat up on people because they don't agree with them?

Nice sentiments.

Wolf

Of course it's not ok but I do hear SOME British people talking trash about Spain trust me alot of em do and I don't find it surprising that they get beat up not that I hate Brits. but some do deserve a few knock outs to get them to learn some respect again not all only some.

lol I would love to see the way the British would act if Spain had a colony in Britain they would probably bomb the place as far as im concerned Britains in Gib. are getting off easy.

Someday the EU will be like the USA?

Not bloody likely! The US has been a soverign, united nation for over 225 years (minus 1861-65 civil strife). EU has no hope of emulating the type of Federal unity that the US now takes for granted.EU countries (not STATES)are distinct cultural identities (and cultural identity influences ideas on trade, taxation, civil liberties, etc.). The differences between Germany and Greece will always be profoundly different than the differences between Alabama and Colorado.

But anyhow, Let the Gibs stay Limey if its what they want. Just leave the apes alone, please!

Quintos, you are sailing close to the wind here. You are behaving like a complete tosser coming out with crap like that.

I hope you are monitoring this carefully MM, because flippant remarks about beatings and bombs give cause for concern.

I am a Brit, who hopefully does not "need a knockout to get me to learn some respect." As it happens, I side in this matter with Fernando, who puts his case eloquently and carefully and it is one that I'm sure is shared by more than a few people residing within the United Kingdom.

That said, it is always going to be a stalemate because the people of Gibraltar have to be in agreement with whatever decision is made and that clearly will never happen.

This board is all about opinions and everyone can have their say, but you, Quintos, have gone too far. No matter how intensely you feel about this subject please try and be civilized about the way you vent those feelings or else I am sure I won't be the only one calling for a ban.

I fully agree with Anchovy. In the past days I have readen your comments and tried to ignore them, but they are quite annoying Quintos.

Fernando

I simply stated that the Brits. would be harsher on a Spanish colony in England than it would be in Spain it was not intended to be a threat im sorry if it reflected in people as being one. I apologize about my language and attitude on this issue I will try to control myself in the future that is.... in less I get banned.

"you are behaving like a complete tosser." Its spelled losser

Quintos233,
What are you doing in California?
(hopefully not working for American dollars and supporting the great US military with your tax dollars)
Actions speak much louder than words

Im a 16 yr. old with a mom from SPain and a dad from US so no I dont pay taxes yet. And when I do I guees it will help the "great"US army

Quintos,

I think you've answered our question with your last post. I have to admit it's kind of refreshing having someone who is younger whose whole outlook on life isn't an XBox game. You just have to learn to control your feelings and express them in the form of debate.

Thank you!

Wolf

I like Fernandos idea about solving the whole thing. But then again, you're talking to a person whose bright idea at 9 years old was telling her father that I thought it much more pratical that instead of fighting wars, governments set up a chess match! I just like the idea of solving problems in an intelligent manner. We have brains, we should use them, not our fists!

Kurt-I'm not even going to go there! Just exactly what do you think the EU is? Maybe I need to take another look at it! But I think although the EU and USA will NEVER be the SAME, that the EU- European UNION= European nations united... has many parallels with the US-United States-individual entities that are UNITED- (does The Union ring a bell?) The US wasn't always the US either! Besides, I was referring to Fernando's comment about an EU passport and how that would work...maybe you didn't get that, or you just skipped over postings and we lost you a bit.

As for Gibraltar... In the end, I don't think it really matters who takes it over, but SOMEBODY has to take responsibility for them, even if its shared... has anyone read about the mess off the coast of Galicia thanks to our dear neighbours on the Rock?!?! There is now an ship, loaded with petrolium, stranded, because Gibraltar wasn't responsible and didn't check the ship as it should have...and is going to cause one very nasty ecological mess, which also has the potential to hurt the sea faring community in Galicia, along with the mussel beds etc. if the nasty spill can't be avoided or cleaned up properly. Thanks Gibralter! You don't care about England or Spain, but let's see who will get you out of this mess!

Please keep in mind, that the media manipulates and is manipulated (by people, by governments...) so its always to keep things in perspective and take EVERYTHING you hear in the media with a grain of salt. Many of us on the board have the advantage of not only reading different papers, but in different languages and getting a better perspective on what it is you're reading. Even if you don't keep this in mind; no matter how a reporter tries to be impartial, they are people, and there are many, MANY factors that influence the way people perceive the same event in different ways. So no, no 1 newspaper is the big-brother all truthful end all to anything!

Yes, Espe, I have read about the mess. That's why I don't like the actual status of Gibraltar, they have special laws, they wash all the black money of Spanish 'bussiness man', they had there a broken nuclear reactor from a Brittish submarine for months, it's not that I care if they're Spanish or Brittish, but they're not good neighbourghs.

Hmm... thought it may have missed something in the translation, so I did a search and came up with http://english2american.com/dictionary/cats/sex.html

It's quite funny most of it, but there are more than a couple of rude bits, so people with a nervous disposition and easily offended had better not click on the link! (How many are not going to do just that I wonder!)

Anchovy,

'Nuff said -

Wolf (Working on his English to English dictionary. It's really a mess - Geez!)

Agreed, Wolf! Now, who the hell started this controversial thread...?? :p

I second that! And Mud-shark?! Someone please tell me, which english speaking American uses that and which states?!?!

One thing is to give explainations to slang in your own country, but to try to adapt and explain for others?! Not working well for this poor fellow I'm afraid!

Pass the English to English dictionary here! :p

Miguelito, when I said our dear neighbours, I was being sarcastic! :p Because events like these are only going to continue to happen, England and Spain need to do something about it! Again, it makes no difference really who takes it over, or if they do it together, but SOMETHING has to be done! There's no excuse for what happened!

Is the mud shark any relation to the "land shark" that ate Gilda Radner?

BTW, Anchovy, isn't "tosser" the English equivalent of the Australian "wanker"?

Sorry...can't lurk without saying something...just ask each other, you know me!

Just for the record, I'm six years old and have a mom from Denmark and a Dad from England. I'm in my second year of medical residency at UC-Irvine...and I love my X-Box! :p Have a great day, Wolf!

Sorry if I offended anybody, espe. He didn't know the term and thought I'd spelt losser (sic) wrongly. I thought I'd kindly point out that I meant something a little stronger.

On hindsight maybe my actions were those of somebody his age and I hang my head in shame. :o

Some phrases do indeed have a different meaning depending on which side of the Atlantic you are on. When my wife required an early morning call in a Florida hotel, neither of us knew quite why everybody behind the desk was having difficulty keeping a straight face. All she did was ask if the man would knock her up in the morning?

Anyway, you're right, Cali, re the terminology. Next time I will just call him a wanker to avoid confusion.

Anchovy,

So then - what happens when you go into a Malaga coffee shop and ask for Tea and strumpets?

Does it cost extra?

Cali,

May I borrow your XBox when you're taking your exams in surgery?

Since I started this thread, maybe it's time I ask that it be closed. It's gotten a little far afield.

Wolf (Still appreciative for the points of view he got from others. I gotta think Fernando has the right approach. Give it all time. It does tend to allow things to heal.)

Anchovy,
Not to worry, you didn't offend me! :p Just that whoever came up with the terms is obviously English and trying to explain american slang... that doesn't exist! :o

But this guy needs some serious help if he plans to explain anything in AM english as he obviously didn't study it, for instance:

We don't 'go shag balls' here! Try that in a conversation, nobody is going to understand. Is he refering to Bowling?!

Banging.. well, it means the same as it does over there, but its definately not a nice or refined way of talking about having sex.

He left out the meaning of Randy in US English, besides of JUST being somebody's name! (now that I know what it means in England- what a terrible name to give your poor child! No way for him to make friends in school! )

Nevertheless, your listing was entertaining and useful.

I like learning what different countries (esp. english speaking ) use for what! Helps to understand better when you speak with them! I have family from Australia... the only cousins who don't correct me when I say Herb! :p I don't swear often... and I don't know where I got it from, but for some reason I'm partial to 'bugger!', I also say bloody and use fancy the way you guys do... seems to me that british english is so much more colorful in that you can use a lot more to express yourself without resorting to foul language- which is dull, since there's a serious lack of creativity in it!

About your wife though... jajajajajaja! That's too funny! Yup! I've already learned some words never to use if I ever go to latin america! Like: 'cojer' if I want to get a taxi... over there I better 'agarrar' the cab! :o One thing I've learned though, when you speak with someone that obviously has a different accent than you, chances are if they say something strange to you, it doesn't mean the same to them, so when in doubt I just ask!

ole ole ole oleeee ole ole oleee ole ole ole oleeeeee ole ole oleee ole ole oleeee ole ole ole

Espe,

Actually shagging balls is a term used in sports. When a baseball team is taking batting practice, the people who run around and pick up the foul balls that are hit are "shagging balls."

Now that brings up another question. How about the old Disney movie, "The Shaggy Dog?" Of course I always chuckle when I remember Petticoat Junction and the town of Hooterville.

Our Spanish son had a difficult time when he first came to the states, not having any idea what our slang. Someone said, "You're pulling my hair!", when he told them something. He looked at them and said, "It wasn't me! Honest!"

Then there was the young man from Burgos who stayed with us for a while. He had a list of our expressions. One of them, which meant a person was "with it," was; "He's on his balls." He'd been told. He was quite relieved to find out that wasn't right -

Wolf (Who wonders if they showed the old American TV show Zorro in Spain, and if people thought they were getting something different than what they got.)

That helps Wolf, and I learned something new! (I'm not a big baseball fan, can you tell?!)Cute though, the way kids take things so literally sometimes, and to top it off add on that they're learning a new language- and slang is a language all its own! I've had some real whoppers in spanish.. but then sometimes I strike out with my english too! :p

However, I think we're getting off topic, and MM is going to give us a little shout. I'm going to look up a thread to see what we've got on slang...

Seems like the Gibraltar issue is at rest, at least for now... let's bring it back to life when Spain, England and Gibraltar start arguing over what's what! Shouldn't be long... :o

lol when I incorrectly corrected Anchovy I said it was supposed to be losser instead of tosser I started a new thread hahahaa.

I really should check this board more often…

Espe3, I think you SHOULD ‘go there’, at least once in your life. What I think the EU is is that it is nothing like the United States. This is because the US has a Constitution that has no parallel in the European Union. Sure, the US has the word ‘United’ in it, and the EU has the word ‘Union’ in it, and both those words share the same root, but that is where the similarities end. When Belgian pensioners and Italian jobless benefit seekers are operating under the same electoral and taxation system, then the ‘Union’ thing might ring a bell. Also, when Rhode Island, Ohio and Idaho are asked to coordinate foreign, military and immigration policies like, say, Spain, Slovenia and Poland then, yes, I won’t fell quite so lost. Please help me by noting the posts I skipped over.

Kurt, no need to worry, I have no trouble speaking my mind. However, I think you're missing the parallels I'm talking about.

Some things over a message board or internet, never come across the way they were intended or get explained in the depth that they should. A good debate should be done in person. That said...

The European Union does have something of a Constution set up. Although it may be primarily more concerned at the moment with foreign policy and union economy, they are moving into other aspects of rule within union countries. (Immigration, for example.) Yes, each country has a different identity and I hope it stays that way! And each country still votes for their own people, who strangely enough how they vote also decides on which people are representing their country in the EU government! Doesn't seem so different to me!

Yes, like you said, each state doesn't get a say in how foreign policy is delt with... but how Florida handles illegal immigration is independent of the way California, Texas, or any of the northern border states deal with it. Not so in the Union. So the similiarities are closer than you would like to believe. But if you insist that they aren't, well, that's your opinion and you're entirely entitiled to it, as I am mine. And we can agree to disagree