customs of gitano people?

I am going to spain in january and looking forward to immersing myself into the gitano culture and music. Does anyone have any advise on the different customs of gitano people.

Wow. Are you sure you want to do this? Keep in in mind that the "musical gypsy" is represented by a VERY VERY VERY small percentage of the whole of the gypsy nation.

Saludos, MadridMan

See thats the thing I dont know exactly what to expect. Is there something I dont know? Im sure there is.
What I know of Gypsy people is what I have read and heard from other people who have been to spain.
I do know that they are stereotyped alot of the times and then I have only heard one perspective.
Was wondering if anyone has any advice on the subject.
My email is IsavellaSophia@hotmail.com

My advice to you would be: be very careful where you tread! You're an 'outsider' and always will be; therefore it's all right for Gypsies to steal your things ...

Most of the so-called Gitanos you will see at Tablaos Flamencos are people who work for a living, something the Gypsy race abhors. Their old horse drawn Caravans have given way to Vans and mini-buses, but they still congregate in open-air places; and they are here today, gone tomorrow. It would be absolutely impossible for a lady from the U.S. to penetrate Gypsy society and be accepted by them, especially if her visit is of a short duration. Such an objective could take a matter of years.

You might try to schedule another visit to Spain for September, 2006 when the next Bienial de Flamenco takes place in Sevilla. There, you can visit a variety of venues and see authentic Gypsies dancing.

Madridman is completely right.

Unlike other ethnias, gypsies are not (generally) integrated in the rest of the society. They don't usually marry with non-gypsies, they have their own "laws" and don't usually have normal jobs.

Most of the small percentage who is integrated into society are flamenco dancers or singers.

I don't recommend you to try to inmerse in their community. Try instead to attend to a flamenco school, thus you may learn it and some of their customs.

Fernando

eeeegads! Hmm...i think you might have picked up some information regarding Gypsy culture and its applicability to Spaain from a source with a somewhat romantic view of life.

It isn't an exact parallel but your question is similiar to a Spaniard saying they are visiting the U.S. and are very interested in black history and black culture and they would like to spend time with the bloods and crips in L.A.

Gitanos aren't as violent but it isn't a place you want to spend any amount of time.

You can hang out in Madrid and Sevilla and have a great deal of exposure to the Flamenco phenom. without putting yourself in any danger.

WOW thats amazing you should say that!!! Incidentally I am a black female that happens to live in a black community. Who as well loves all rhythms of flamenco and people who are prideful of who they are.
And for your imformation black culture does not consist of "bloods and crips" so your comparison is completely off and absolutely ignorant.
Typical response I suppose since many people in the US are extremely quick to judge and stereotype blacks as well.
Im beginning to wonder if the same thing doesnt hold true for gitanos.
I guess what you said would be comparable to that of someone who would say to come to the US and immerse yourself with whites would be like trying to associate yourself with skinheads and Klu Klux klan, which would be absolutely ridicuous.
You sir are extremely offensive in your comments and should be careful with the comments you make. Because you never know who it is you are responding to.

To all others this was never intended to turn into anything else other than an question answer thread, but since ignorance has shown its ugly face, I figure it needed to be confronted.

Adios

Before you get all bent out of shape, I think TJguy was trying to make the same point as you about the skinheads, it's not very realistic of a situation for a complete outsider to immerse themselves in a culture/subculture such as those (tightly knit, not generally accepting of outsiders). What is ignorant is thinking you can just show up in Spain, decide you're interested in gitano culture, and "immerse" yourself. One could learn more about the culture from a visit but that is hardly immersion. You could spend your entire trip just trying to figure out where they live. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

I agree with Nevado, MM and Fernando. How do you expect to 'immerse' yourself in this culture? Approach a gitano who is selling stolen goods on the street and ask if you can join their group? They will steal all you have and when you report this to the police I don't think they will be very accommadating. As previous posters have said, a majority of these people don't work, have a their own laws etc. And I'm not sterotyping, my wife is Spanish and knows what these people are like. Don't do it.

Inmersing in the gitano comunity? NO WAY.
FYI, it's an extremely closed community, and on top
of that they are racist and machoistic.
I don't think you should try. It's not safe.

huh???..I don't get your point! The Bloods and Crips aren't an unsaviory element? ..... because that is what the Gypsy element will tend to be more like - - not the southern traditional Spanish culture that you are seeking! They are a group within Spanish culture with which you won't integrate easily with and will not ensure your safety, as a general rule. If you were to actively search them out, they would identify you as an economic opportunity and not as someone with which to share ideas and information.

If you were visiting a foreign country speaking with someone that was extremely interested in black culture and black history but didn't have any real world experience with U.S. culture and, furthermore, sincerely believed the best way to learn about black history and culture was to fly to California (alone) and try to visit people that associated with elements of the Bloods and Crips you wouldn't advise them not to?? You wouldn't direct them elsewhere??

That's all I did. Unless you have lived in Spain, you wouldn't appreciate the dangers that exist in seeking companionship with the gypsy sub-culture!! Will they kill you? Doubtful!! Will they steal your property and harm you if needed? Likely!

As I said, it isn't an exact parallel. BUT the gypsy culture is very difficult to integrate with AND your property and well being are not ensured.

If it makes you feel better, I'll take my perceived racist and ignorant example and turn it around. You are a Mexican interested in southern U.S. history and culture and the best place, you think, to learn about southern history and culture is to visit and intermingle with some of the more conservative elements of southern U.S. society because that is what you have HEARD represents southern history and culture. I'd direct you elsewhere because your SAFETY depends on it. NOT because I dislike southerners as a group!

That is exactly what you want to do in Spain. You are interested in some element of Spain and, because you don't know any better, you picked a rather dangerous segment of Spanish society to learn about.

Due to the abbreviated communication format of message boards, I picked a brief and imperfect analogy to help an American appreciate how dangerous the decision to actively seek the gypsy culture could be. I didn't attempt to write a comparative dissertation on American cultural segments and the degree their criminal elements will accept outsiders into their group!

There was no reason to be so reactionary.

I can certainly see how someone could become enamored with gypsy culture upon watching flamenco, listening to flamenco music/song, and seeing gypsy focused movies, etcetera. It's always quite romantic and heartfelt, almost spiritual. But as we've stated above, those gypsies participating in song/art in Spain are a small/tiny segment of the entire gyspy nation. Gypsies have history in Spain - much of it difficult and challenging. Gypsies are clannish both to their credit and to their fault. I don't personally know any gypsies and I imagine there are a number of Spaniards who don't know any gypsies (personally) either - that's mainly because Spanish gypsies are the unfortunate outsiders in their own country.

We might recommend that you read some books about Spanish gypsies. Surely there are some documentaries and/or case studies on the topic written in English.

Maybe the best thing would be to involve yourself in Spanish flamenco dance and music - if that's where your interests are. There, you can sample the wonderful artistic parts of gypsy life and possibly through them you can get a small taste of the other side of gypsy life.

Best of luck! Saludos, MadridMan

You asked for advice and help from people who do have the knowledge and are are willing to share their knowledge to answer your questions.

You don't seem to like the knowledgable responses you got -

I stronly suggest you do some homework on the Gitanos' customs and cultures. I think what you have been told here is what you will discover if you do your homework ...

IsavellaSophia:

Your are taking TJGuy's comments totally out of context. I'm from Mexico and totally understand what he is trying to say, and don't feel offendend but grateful that someone wants to guide me in the right direction.

And since you are African-American I would suggest that when you travel abroad you understand that in other countries we don't have the same history that black people have had in the U.S. In consequence you might hear, whether good or not, people making jokes, staring and directly calling someone in a colloquial manner "negro" without that black person (native of that country) been offended. Be open minded.

For example, a black friend of mine, from the U.S., went to live to Guadalajara (Mexico) and say people would ask her if they could touch her skin to see if it was for real. These people were probably naive, but she was never offended because of this, she only enjoyed been different. Sorry if this offends anyone I'm just trying to be of help.

Hi I.S.

I didn't post that black culture consists of Bloods and Crips - not sure how you read that but if I was careless or inexact with my wording, my apologies. I don't think anyone on this board would ascribe a criminal element as a "cultural characterstic". No Spaniard or board member would say that ETA is a cultural characterstic of Spain. My attempted point was to say that someone that did not know better, in their search for greater understanding, could find themselves in a geat deal of trouble without knowing how they got there.

Gitanos are part of the Spanish landscape just as the Bloods and Crips are part of the African-American landscape and neo-nazis and skinheads are part of the caucasion-American landscape and La Raza is part of the Mexican-American landscape. They all have in common a characteristic of living outside the natural and formal laws of man.

My guess is that a Spaniard could visit your house and your community and know that they would not be a target. It could not be said that the same Spaniard, in an effort to learn about black culture and history, would not be harrassed in some manner if they attempted to associate with members of either the Bloods or Crips. A Spaniard that had never visited the U.S. would not have the tools or knowledge to know when he was venturing into a situation that was not safe.

Our concern is that this is what would happen to you. You could very well find a well-meaning gitano to answer your questions and not know when you wandered into a situation that might turn dangerous.

Equally, I know that if you visit Spain and follow the board's recommendations about learning Gypsy culture and flamenco, you would be perfectly safe. I cannot tell you that if you actively sought out gitanos in Spain that your experience would not have elements of danger.

Perhaps we jumped the gun before understanding what you wanted to know. For those of us that have lived in Spain (or live in Spain), the possibility of a tourist intending to visit Spain with the stated purpose of visiting and mingling with the Gypsy population sets off alarms of concern; to such a degree that we blew right by your question.

The Gypsy population lives outside the social norms of Spanish society and as an entire group, has its own values and norms. We probably should not have called them a subgroup or part of Spanish society. The live on the Iberian Pennisula, which is politcally and economically controlled by Spain and Portugal. That a few members of their population produce fantanstic music that originates from Spain shouldn't suggest that you should expect to be treated as a "Spaniard" would treat you.
Again, my apologies if my posting was received not as it was intended. I wanted you to have a very internalized understanding that there was danger involved in what you intended to do.

By the way (and keep in mind that this is a generalization, probably there are gypsies out there who doesn't fit the stereotype): spanish gypsies are extremely racist. They will put out of their clan a woman who marries a non-gypsy spaniard. They usually don't meet non-gypsy people (usually, I know exceptions) unless necessary.

I can't imagine how would they behave with a japanese or a black (who have been a extremely rare sight until 5-10 years ago in Spain).

You will see south-americans, african blacks, chineses and moors working in normal jobs (due to their inmigrant situation, usually low-qualified jobs as constructions workers, tenders or waiters). I've jet to see a gypsy working on those jobs (or any other job by the way).

My father employed two gypsies in a factory (against the counsel of a chief) only to be menaced and robbed by them two months later...

Fernando

You should go to El Rastro. Many gipsies are street salespersons. And many others are antiques shops' owners.

I don't feel comfortable with the "gipsies=evil" generalisation I am perceiving in this thread. It is true that, in relative numbers, there's more criminality among gipsies than non-gipsies, but one cannot state that a gipsy is either an artist or a criminal. Most of them work in other jobs, a shorter set of jobs than non-gipsies if you want, but honorable ones.

And, for the OP, it is completely true gipsies conform a very closed culture (with its pros and cons). It is very difficult to enter their group and I wouldn't try if I were a foreigner staying for a few days.

I'm racking my brains to remember the title and author of a book written by an English guy who got involved with a group of gypsies in Spain. He spent a long time with them and got to know their way of life and what they have to do to survive. If the name of the book eventually comes to me I'll post it on here as it got some good reviews. I've not had much contact with gypsies during my trips to Spain. I've sometimes felt sorry for them when I've seen them begging in the streets etc. I know that they have long history in Spain and in Europe generally and a rich culture although I understand that they are perhaps wary of outsiders.

" Duende a journey into the heart of FLAMENCO" byJason Webster A very interesting book about a guy headed for Spain and in search of duende. Studying flamenco guitar until his fingers bleed. I've enjoyed reading it.

I'm not saying they are all criminals.

As a whole, however, gypsy culture is to be criticize. They don't have a rich culture (if you understand culture the way it is, not only having some customs and having a special talent for flamenco).

Why dozens of civilizations have come to Spain during its history and they have integrated with the local population and gypsies haven't?

We may be tempted to think that it is a problem of racism... Then, why are 4 million inmigrants from South America and Africa working in Spain and paying their taxes and why most gypsies don't have legal jobs? (selling things in Rastro, commerce with scrap, or stealing paper from containers to sell it are not good examples).

Why a good percentage of gypsies don't take their children to schools (while south-americans, moroccians and others do)?

It is not a matter of racism. It is a matter of a culture which regular efforts are not valued, and in which others outside the culture are not to be respected.

And of course, this is a generalisation based on my experience. I'm sure there are gypsies who are fully integrated in our society.

Fernando

The gist of what Fernando was saying in the post directly above is, I believe, that, in general, the Gypsy/Gitano culture prefers not to be an intregal part of society. This is true not only in Spain but throughout Europe - both eastern and western Europe. The fact that most Gypsys have not integrated into any of the European societies
has been one primarily of their choice.

Historical fact ....

If at all possible to bring the subject back to the original question:

There is one city unique in Spain for its integration of gypsy with non-gypsy, and that is Jerez, where you find the not oft-used term 'entreverao' to refer to someone of 'mixed' heritage. The gypsies I have met and known are a proud, dignified people who for the most part keep to their families and go about their business just like anyone else. As some have suggested here it is a difficult group to understand because they are very private and family oriented and aren't particularly interested in foreigners (a few opportunistic gypsies who take advantage of unsuspecting foreigners aside, certainly not representative of everyone, and I am speaking primarily of jerez here). It is a somewhat fascinating mix, as there are the usual prejudices against gypsies here as well though so much gyspy language and culure is present in this part of Andalucia.

...Ohhh !!! I gotta pitch in on this one !

First of all, my source of information comes from my own personal experience by being born and raised in Sevilla, capital of Andalucia, until I was 17 years old. While living in Spain I frequently travelled from coast to coast (Northern/Southern) coasts of Spain from Galicia to Cadiz and all pueblos and ciudades in between with an emphasis on a yearly visit to relatives in the heart of Madrid.

Now, knowing my exposure to Spain,,,I shall proceed.

Here's what I currently know about Gitanos in Spain, mind you that I left Sevilla in 1987 at age 17, although I've visited since in '88, '89, '90, '92, '96 and '99.

The typical Gitano is considered an underclassed member of sociaty. Gitanos can be found in large gatherings living in shacks, tents, vehicles, forming a colony resembling those of homeless people in the US, anywhere around the outskirts or large vacant spaces within the city.

This group has very long deep roots into their own culture, own language according to their location in the world, in Sevilla I recall that they also spoke "Calé", "Caló". They typically make a living by selling items, crafts, doing menial jobs and may follow activities and festivities (such as La Feria) peripherally as an indirect source of income, while others may actually own an operate some of the thrill rides. Others may stay put within the same area for years.

The element of stealing seems to be an opportunistic one, however, somewhat violent within the youth group. This is true on all societies where the underpriviledged may be an opportunistic thief, not truly going to to steal anything but taking it if "silver plattered" and the youths resorting to an easier way of making a living but robbing folks, at times violently.

The percentage of violence and crime is generally low within their society but higher than the sorrounding society thus creating the big issue with racial, ethnic tensions and of course our good friend Stereotype... Does this ring any bells to anyone in the US?

Then you have Gitanos like my best childhood friend, Manuel J. R., from Sevilla and his parents who "made it", integrated themselves into a part of town, held steady solid jobs in a company, organization, what not. Manuel went to public school and was by best friend until we lost contact in '99.

Manuel, a Gitano, physically resembled a taller, bigger version of a Native American. He would not allow anyone to bash on the Gitano culture and was very fluent, articulated and knowledgeable on many subject matters even politics during our teens years.

Manuel wasn't blind, oh no, Manuel saw what I described above about the Gitanos, in fact, I was mugged twice as a kid, once with Manuel but we took his butterknife, yes, a single assailant with a friggin' butterknife from this way too youg Gitano kid, typically it would have been ass whoop time but instead, in a very local streel slang we warned him off (cusha gorfo! te voy a pisá la boca, perra. Como me va a robá a mí que soy der polígono, ome? Ojú quillo, como yo te vea otra vé por aquí verá la que te voy a dá) we told him where we were from (Poligono De San Pablo, aka Der Poligono) which is not a rich kids neighborhood at all and thanked us for not "pisarme la boca" and run away, mind you that we were 14-15 yrs old.

So, to cap it all up.

Objectivately, Gitanos may live similarly to what you may see under a bridge in the US, this is the darker more biased aspect part of it but they have also integrated under the majority of society some disappearing forever in the crowd, so much so that one may be a flight crew member on your next Iberia Flight, or your bank teller, camarero, etc...

If you ever passed through and indian reservation area of poorer quailities, with shack looking homes, beatten clothlines, unkept general areas, etc... can bring you close to the appearance and being of Gitanos, people with long deep roots into a very old rich culture,,, yet underpriviledged.

This is all based on my personal living and seeing experience, over the years... since 1987... local laws may have changed, old vacant lots and outskirts developed, housing projects and citizen benefits added and changed to the point where the ability of actually seeing Gitanos in such a poor economic stated may have hopefylly changed for the better.

Well, I've had the most enlightening moment replying to a post about Gitanos earlier... memories long lived.

Here's my question.

Are there any Gitanos in this group?

The Gypsy culture in the US is predominantly one of organized crime. It has nothing to do with race, poverty, or some other "ism". This is their chosen lifestyle.

The Rom or Romany culture has dedicated itself to duping and fleecing the non-gypsies or (gadji) for centuries.

Here in the US, they run palm reading parlors, engage in welfare fraud, and bogus home repair. They are typically non-violent, but the young Rom are now becoming involved with drug trafficking and violence often accompanies this vocation.

The Gypsies prey on the knaive and the greedy and in some ways, they are astute judges of human nature. They appeal to our "something for nothing" impulses.

They are masters of the "con games" and you are to blame if you fall for their schemes. I have dealt with them many times over the years as a part of my job and what they are "selling" is always too good to be true!

Our friend who wants to "immerse herself in Gypsy culture" may be just what they are looking for.

Yeah, I even remember an old episode of CHIPS where Gypsy's were faking getting hit by cars and trying to blackmail the drivers. Good thing Ponch and John were on the job.

And don't forget the gypsy caravan (with Jamie Farr as the son) that setup camp outside of Mayberry on The Andy Griffith Show . Window-sil-cooling-pies were stolen as were chickens and other stuff. But they were caught and eventually left town. Good thing Andy and Barney were on the job!

But in all seriousness, these gypsies on TV and in movies are your stereotypical, type-cast characters where every gypsy is a thief. I'm sure that's not the case in real-life. I'm not even sure if we have any gypsies in the USA anymore.

Saludos, MadridMan

Come on!!! no gypsy reading this thread who can help our brave adventurer!!!!! what! don´t you speak english gypies!!??

A.

Oh yeah....we have Gypsies in the USA.

They will be happy to seal your blacktop driveway or read your palm ! In fact, very close to you MM, on Westerville Rd.

If you decide to do business with them, not even Ponch or Andy can help you!

And yes Martha, they are all thieves!

Ever heard of the "Irish Travelers"?

Dave B: I would chime in and comment on this but is sound like you are doing real good on your own. If it aint nailed down, consider it gone.

Carnies are another crowd that will clean out a town when they show up. Sometime they will steal the nails.

Señor DD:

You are always welcome to "chime in"

There's an article in Froots magazine (worldwide roots music guide) this month explaining how you can go on an organised tour to experience the real flamenco and hob-nob with the greats (their words not mine). Unfortunately the article is not printed on the web-site, but details on how to get hold of the mag are given. There's also an article on the Ladino (Jewish Sephardic?) singer Jasmin Levy and her new CD which is very flamenco inspired.
froots magazine

Hmmm, I agree with most of the information regarding the gitanos, but why is no one mentioning the Ohio State Buckeye fans - much more annoying group of people! When I was living in Scottsdale a couple of years ago, they invaded for the bowl game held there. The streets were infested with them - black and red jackets and fat white stomachs for miles around! hahaha

hardy har....... har. Funny guy.

Yuck. So many stereotypes. Isabella, you should immerse yourself in the culture if you wish. As a journalist, I reckon that's the only way to really get to know people from a closed society. You might find they are not all thieves, peddlers of stolen goods and racist mysoginists.

If you are planning to immerse yourself for some type of scholarly endeavour such as a book or a thesis, then you should. If not, then at the end, you'll just have lots of good stories to tell.

Seriously, I saw the tide a-changing during the election and 11-M last year. But this message board has become very scary!!!

Silvita: We are not all that bad. "Just some good ole boys, never meaning no harm." "In trouble with the law since the day we were born." "Yeeeh ha."

Silvita: Amen, sister. Lo cierto es que para mi el sitio ha perdido cierto encanto. Too bad because I used to enjoy the diversity of voices
and experiences. Guess there are a lot of scared people out there. Lastima.

and you just cannot beat Catherine Bach as Daisy Duke - - - what a dish!

Yes, everyone is scared......OF WHAT ? The PC police like you. Sometimes the truth hurts, deal with it.

Silvita,

I have a feeling you might have missed part of this thread-

IsavellaSophia's posts indicated that she had a virtual lack of knowledge in this area -She had neither read much, if anything, on the situation addressed nor did she have more than a smattering of experience in being a visitor in another country.

No-one intended to sound pendantic nor biased - I do think a number of those who responded to IsavellaSophia's posts were honestly a bit concerned for her sake.

Just as an FYI - the board has some strong conservatives - and then there are the rest of us very liberal members ....

There are two kind od gitanos in Spain. In Andalucia (the flamencos) they are the gitanos most people outside Spain know. They like sevillanas, flamenco, bulería, cante...

There are another kind of gitanos here. They are more related to the romaní community. This kind have lived here for a long time but they keep their tradition: they get married very young, they respect a lot elders, they have a very impressive ceremony for wedding...

Most of them work selling things in the street. They have been very related to delincuence, because they were so illiterate: they didn't attend to compulsory school (for example).

But this things have changed a lot in the past few years. When I was 12 the government started to pull them to attend to school. This made a great difference. Now there are illiterate gipsies, of course, but there are also worships gipsies.

They keep their culture but they are being more integrated with non gipsies (what they call payos).


http://www.gitanos.org/