2 Last Names

Posted by: ceb

2 Last Names - 05/30/05 09:25 PM

Hi. I know that in Spain (and many Latin American countries for that matter)use both their father and mother's surnames, but is this obligatory? Is it okay to have Spanish documents with just ones' maiden name? I know where even the married last name is added on, like de SMITH, for example, which is a bit much.
Posted by: Amleth

Re: 2 Last Names - 05/31/05 04:10 AM

Hi!

It's not mandatory if you only have one. However, most of the people have both surnames mother's + father's or father's + mother's.

This tradition dates back to the Middle Ages. Christians used one surname only; but when the Inquisition started the ethnic cleansing after the massive deportation everybody had to use both surenames.
Posted by: Torrales

Re: 2 Last Names - 05/31/05 04:51 AM

As far as I know it is mandatory for every Spanish citizen to have two last names. I have never met anyone in forty years having only one. Even American citizens, when they naturalized Spanish use their mother's maiden surname as their second last name, I have a couple of friends in this case.

One of the last names come from father's first surname and the other from mother's. The current laws allow parents to decide the sequence (i.e. father's + mother's, or viceversa). This is only since a decade ago or so, before the father's was compulsory first, and still the majority of population have them this way.

Women don't change their names when married. The added "de" (as "de Smith" in ceb's example) is an old use and was just for social purposes, never in public documents. Nowadays, you will find a few women that name themselves that way, only very elder people.

In day-to-day, we use to shorten our names and commonly use only the first surname, but not for official purposes. For instance, our former President of the Government was known as Jose M. Aznar, but his full name is Jose M Aznar Lopez. In some cases, when the first surname is very common, then the second surname is used to shorten. The example of this case is our current P of G, whose full name is Jose L. Rodriguez Zapatero, being known as Zapatero, rather than Rodriguez.
Posted by: Chica

Re: 2 Last Names - 06/03/05 04:23 AM

I am a US citizen with legal residency in Spain. On all official documents, including my tarjeta de residencia and my driver's license, I only have one last name.

Also, I am registered as a self-employed worker (autónoma) and have only used one last name. It has never been a problem, albeit a bit awkward to explain at first. However, with all of the immigration to Spain recently, the different offices are getting used to dealing with foreigners with only one last name! wink

Using my mother's maiden name on official documents here in Spain would only confuse the matter since, in order to get my residency here in Spain, I had to hand in copies of many official documents from the USA (birth certificate, passport, etc) none of which lists my mother's maiden name as part of my legal last name.
Posted by: Torrales

Re: 2 Last Names - 06/06/05 05:34 AM

Quote:
I am a US citizen with legal residency in Spain. On all official documents, including my tarjeta de residencia and my driver's license, I only have one last name.
If you ever become a Spanish citizen (no legal resident, no tourist visa owner, no refugee status owner,...), then you will have to make a second last name up. And you will be suggested to use your mother's maiden name.
Posted by: Eddie

Re: 2 Last Names - 06/06/05 02:44 PM

Amleth writes:
Quote:
This tradition dates back to the Middle Ages. Christians used one surname only; but when the Inquisition started the ethnic cleansing after the massive deportation everybody had to use both surenames.
Interesting explanation: I hadn't heard about the Inquisition relationship before rolleyes

Spain: it is generally accepted that the Father's surname goes first and the Mother's after: Federico Garcia Lorca is the son of Senor Garcia and Senora Lorca. Rodriguez Zapatero is son of Senor Rodriguez and Senora Zapatero. He should be addressed as Senor Rodriguez or Rodriguez Zapatero, not just Zapatero, although many Spanish people call him Zapatero, maybe because a Zapatero is a Cobbler and those who call him that do so as a 'put down.' cool

Confusing?? In some latin American countries the order is reversed. The first surname is the Mother's maiden name; the second is the father's.

When I was preparing my Papers prior to getting married in Madrid, some of the people involved (Clergy?) assumed that because I had just one surname I must be illegitimate. eek
Posted by: Puna

Re: 2 Last Names - 06/06/05 04:00 PM

LOL - smile
Posted by: jabch

Re: 2 Last Names - 06/06/05 05:36 PM

Actually, I think they call him "Zapatero" because "Rodriguez" is a very common surname in the Spanish speaking world. So using "Zapatero"really stands out of the crowd and makes easier to know you are talking about the president. Think "Rodriguez" in Spain might be as common as "Smith" or "Johnson" in the U.S. And having "Zapatero" for surname won't be so bad that people will use it to put you down. It is like having "Carpenter" as last name in the U.S.

It would be interesting to know what countries in Latinamerica go the opposite way as to lastnames, first mom's then dad's. Never heard of that before.
Posted by: TJGuy

Re: 2 Last Names - 06/07/05 09:31 AM

i have been told a few times that a Spaniard could use the last names of multiple generations, for example "Rey Fernandez Pico........" as far back as they could remember. Has anyone else ever heard of this? The inquisition thing was interesting....thanks.

TJ
Posted by: Torrales

Re: 2 Last Names - 06/08/05 05:31 AM

Quote:
i have been told a few times that a Spaniard could use the last names of multiple generations, for example "Rey Fernandez Pico........" as far back as they could remember. Has anyone else ever heard of this?
Short answer is: No, Spaniards have two and only two surnames, one coming from mother's and the other from father's.

There are nuances to the above said.

One person can officially join their two surnames, creating a compound surname. This is usually done by people who:
- has a very common first surname like Fernandez, Lopez, Rodriguez... and a not so usual second one, and want the latter to be propagated to their children.
- has the time and the money to do the paperwork in the Ministry of Justice.
In this case, the compound surname is made by joining both and hyphenating them.

Example: Mr. Juan Fernandez Pico (son of Juan Fernandez Whatever) is in this situation. He can legally change his name to Juan Fernandez-Pico Whatever (the father's second surname is now taken as second surname, as we all have to have two surnames) and all his descendants will inherit Fernandez-Pico as surname. This avoids the Pico to be lost.

In some other cases, a surname is not a single word, but it is not a compound, just a multi-word surname, like "Ruiz de la Prada", for instance (kind of the Dutch "Van der Whatever")
Posted by: deibid

Re: 2 Last Names - 06/08/05 06:22 AM

You don't use all the surnames you can remember, at least officially and not normally.
But may be you mean that we usually know them...well, it's true, my 'long' name is:

That's a long time in the past... more than 100 years surely.

And you can actually pay some specialist that will go further, till the Middle Ages, it's true.
In fact my uncle is a History specialist who has traced my family a lot further in the past, to the early 1800 I think. He has found amazing stories, for example one of my gran-gran-gran...etc who was a rocket-man in the circus! laugh
Posted by: TJGuy

Re: 2 Last Names - 06/08/05 09:07 AM

perhaps that is what they were talking about. The conversations were very casual and were generally in the context about Spain, Spanish culture and Spanish customs and not about formal ways of addressing oneself. The one person I was speaking to had an entire string of last names, like the last poster did.

Thanks...that was interesting!!
Posted by: JasMadrid

Re: 2 Last Names - 06/09/05 11:23 AM

Actually TJGuy, everyone I know here in Spain knows at least 8 of their "last" names, although only two are the official ones. My grandmother knew 16 of them, and I made the mistake never to write them down!!!
Posted by: TJGuy

Re: 2 Last Names - 06/09/05 01:16 PM

what a shame...doesn't the "libro de familia" show info. like that?
Posted by: JasMadrid

Re: 2 Last Names - 06/10/05 04:00 AM

Nope, because only the first two are legal... frown
Posted by: Aflein

Re: 2 Last Names - 07/13/05 05:19 AM

Siento no escribir en inglés, pero es que aún no me manejo, ustedes disculpen.
Tener dos apellidos no tiene nada que ver con la Inquisición, sino con el derecho de propiedad. Mientras en muchos lugares de Europa las mujeres no tenían derecho de propiedad, en el reino de Castilla solían ser las propietarias de las tierras. Cuando alguien heredaba podía hacerlo de su abuela, por ejemplo, y entonces adoptaba su apellido, ligado a unas propiedades en concreto. Por eso de los cinco hermanos Avellaneda que se fueron de conquistas por América sólo dos usaban el Avellaneda. El uso hizo que se conservasen los apellidos de las mujeres y con el tiempo se extendió a todo el mundo, no sólo a los que tenían heredades. Se regularizó en "apellido del padre-apellido de la madre" en el siglo XIX y en el XX se permitió que quien quisiera los cambiara de orden o eligiera otros apellidos de la familia. Para ello sólo hay que pedirlo al Registro Civil. Si nunca se dice nada, los apellidos y su orden quedan como los elige la persona que acude al registro a informar del nacimiento del niño.
No es obligatorio ningún orden concreto, pero sí deben ser dos apellidos. Por costumbre se suele conservar el orden "apellido del padre-apellido de la madre".
Por otra parte llamar Zapatero a Zapatero no tiene nada de despreciativo, es costumbre utilizar más el apellido menos corriente de los dos.
Perdón por la parrafada.
Posted by: MadridMan

Re: 2 Last Names - 07/13/05 05:39 AM

Aflein, lo siento pero esta categoría del foro - como has dicho - es en inglés.

Would someone be so kind as to translate Aflein's above posting into English? Thanks!

Saludos, MadridMan
Posted by: Chica

Re: 2 Last Names - 07/13/05 06:09 AM

Aflein's translation wink :

Quote:
Sorry for not writing in English, it's that I still don't manage very well. Please forgive me.

Having two last names has nothing to do with the Inquisition, but rather the right to property/land ownership. While in many areas of Europe women did not have the right to own land/property, in the Kingdom of Castille women were usually the landowners. When someone inherited, they would do so from their grandmonther and therefore adopted her last name connected to the specific property. For this reason, of the five Avellaneda brothers who went to conquer the Americas, only two used the last name of Avellaneda. This use aided in the conservation of the last name of the women and with the passing of time, the practice spread to everyone, not just those who had inheritances.

The order of "paternal last name, maternal last name" was regulated in the 19th century. In the 20th century, the laws changed and whoever wanted to change the order of the last names, or choose other last names from the family, could do so. One only needs to go the the Civil Registry to make the change. If you never say otherwise, the last names and their order remain the way they were established when the person's birth was officially recorded.

There is no obligatory order to the last names. But yes, there must be two last names. Tradition indicates that the order which is normally conserved is that of "paternal last name, maternal last name".

On the other hand, calling Zapatero Zapatero is not at all despective. It is customary to use the last name which is the least common of the two.

Sorry for the long explanation.
Posted by: Amleth

Re: 2 Last Names - 07/13/05 07:30 AM

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with Aflein for several reasons smile :

1. The history of Spanish heraldry dates back to the 9th century. During the Middle Ages there were only servants and landowners (the nobility, the clergy and the king). It was a fixed and simple social system which lasted for 10 centuries. Women did not inherit; in fact, not even men did but the first-borns only. Another different thing is that women took care of the land and its administration.

2. You mention the Avellaneda brothers going to America, but the use of 2 last names started before that. When we take a look at the history of the Spanish Baroque period, to mention the time of the Conquistadores, we may find lots of references to prosecutions by the Inquisition too. They charged people for heresy, witchcraft and religious unbelief (muslims, jews, native indians, etc). It was more than important being able to prove your blood lineage at the trial or face the stake.

3. A historical fact is to look at the number of spanish jewish surnames (almost non-existent). If you look at the history of the Sefardic people they've got plenty of documents where they actually mention this obligation during the trials and the ethnic cleansing.

4. I give for granted that there must be more than one reason to explain it. But we can't deny the fact that the Inquisition had much to do with it.