Mexicans Hating Spanish?

Hey everyone, I'm new here...but I am hoping to be a pretty active member very soon as I will be traveling to Spain for a 6-month study abroad at USC in Galicia during the Spring of 2006.

Anyway...I am doing lots of reading about Spain regarding the country and the culture, and one thing I have found is that there is this huge rift between the Mexicans and the Spanish...but I guess more specifically, between the entire Hispanic world and Spain.

What is the root of this? Is it purely due to the conquistadors of the 1400s and 1500s, or is it something else, as well?

I did a forum search before posting this topic, but I didn't really find anything helpful...so yeah.

Gracias :-)

That huge rift separating Spain and the Hispanic World is called the Atlantic Ocean

Seriously, while I haven't studied it, I thought Spain currently has relatively friendly relations with most, if not all, Central/South American countries. Or, if there is a rift between these countries and Spain, that rift is much smaller than the one separating these countries from any other European country or from the US or Canada.

It is difficult to explain, but I will try...

In hispanic countries of South and Central America people has been grown up studying a politized version of history, in which the spanish were the conquerors and invaders and the natives and spanish descendants were heros. It was a way of rising national proud and it works everywhere (including the USA).

Therefore, it is usual that people in these countries are somewhat beligerant with spaniards. The usually make a comment or two about how bad the spaniards were, and how criminal the invasion was (no matter that our ancestors remained in Spain and theirs were the ones who conquered their countries).

But that's the surface (in most cases), since most of these people adore Spain and consider it a kind of second home and a country to imitate. When south and central americans emigrate from their country they choose Spain as one of their preferred destinations (there are lots of equatorians, colombians and argentinians in Spain).

Therefore, it would be more accurate to say that mexicans have a mixture of feelings regarding Spain and the spaniards

Perhaps someone can add something more about this topic. This is just my point of view (I'm a spaniard) based on my impressions when talking people from South America.

Fernando

I've been to Spain twice before and I'm going again next week to Madrid.I'm an American born Mexican and I never had attitude problems from anybody in Spain.I remeber going to restaurants in Avila,Segovia,Barcelona etc and I was always treated like an old friend.They were excited to speak with me when they found out I was Mexican.My traveling partner who is French Canadian even noticed that.
My family always looked up to Spain as the mother country from the past.We know the history as just that and those strong opinions don't exist.
Maybe if I was born in Mexico I would have thought different but even my Mexican friends never speak bad about Spain.They all want to visit some day.Mexicans love Spain and appreciate the culture.
I think anybody in Latin America stating anything bad about Spaniards would be very rare and ignorant.We are a blend of Sapnish and Indian so we would be talking about ourselves.They are our grandparents.

You consider Spain to be a mother country of Mexico? Really?

Hm...I don't see the connection, really. The Mexicans are descendants of the Aztecs and Mayans, and the Spanish are descendants of older Spanish people...quite a difference, I'd say.

Of course, these days, cultures are so criss-crossed it's not even funny...I guess the only OBVIOUS difference is that Mexicans have dark skin, and Spanish have white skin.

Thanks for the info!! :-)

I don't know much of the history on this but from my personal experiences, there are not good feelings between the two countries. But I think really it depends on each person. I work with quite a few mexicans at my job and one of my bosses is Mexican. He was fussing tonight that he does not like the accent of Spain nor the Spanish. And most of the other Mexicans agreed with him. I personally prefer the Spanish I learned in Spain over what I learn here. I stayed with a Spanish family in Spain and my friend and her friends were quick to correct me if I said something "Mexican" they would not make a huge deal out of it but they would let it be known that they did not like that version and would teach me their version of the word/phrase.

How was your experience living with a Spanish family?

Mexico is a blend of Spanish and Indian people.There are both dark and white skinned Mexicans.There are alot of old Spanish families there that have not mixed.There are others that are blended and have some traits from both sides.
Just like any country there are variations.
Of course they believe Mexico to be their own mother country but they look up to Spain in many ways with a connection from the past.
I guess my point is nobody talks about the conquest aside from a historical fact.It's not the subject that still comes up often.
Almost all of them have a Spanish family name.
There are very few original Indian people left.
There is also the fact that not a whole lot is known about the Indian past.There are some dances and stories but aside from that very few people in Mexico connected to the Indian past.
They seem to have more of an American influence in alot of ways.
As for language differences I hear the same comments from all people who share the same language no matter what it is.English,French Spanish etc.Everybody prefers the way they speak and doesn't like the sound of thier language being changed.

An alarming number of very well educated Mexicans I work with STILL talk about the conquista and openly say that they dislike being among Spaniards because they believe Spaniards treat them as the conquered people...the "booty", if you will, of Spain's reign in the Americas. The MECHA movement here in the Southwest has added fuel to the fire and many Mexican Americans completely denounce Spain. Read the latest works of Rudolfo Anaya for a taste of the attitude I'm talking about. I was the bilingual coordinator of a school here for many years and still work with the population and I can tell you that I never ran into a single Mexican or Mexican American that "looked up" to Spain in any way. In fact, if you look at any of the areas where you have a large indigenous population, you'll notice that Columbus Day is a day of infamy!

As for there not being any Native populations left...boy, that's a pretty strong statement. The Tarahumara are probably as pure Indian as you can get, and I'd bet as you get further south you'll find more pockets of native peoples...particularly in poor, mountain areas. Oaxaca and Chiapas still have a lot of pure natives, and even among tribes like the Yaqui and Maya you have people who, while not 100% perhaps, are pretty darned close.

I was in vacation in Mexico 4 years ago. In a few places I identified myself as a Spaniard thinking it'll be easier for the locals to talk to me in Spanish instead of English (stupid me) and got only rudeness. Since those experiences I only spoke English and said I was American, what a difference!! Even the books they have at the hotel rooms talked awful about Spaniards.
How many Mexicans do you know live in Spain? They're all here in the U.S. Obviously there's a reason for them to do that. Yes, they hate us, and no, they don't look up to us.
All I can say is, it's a pity that for something that happened 500 years ago and we (actual Spaniards) have nothing to do with it, we get this kind of treatment. Get over it, I don't hate Moorish for invading Spain in the 700s!

If Mexico hates Spain so much then I must ask why do they continue to speak Spanish and follow our religion and call themselves hispanic. Once Mexicans stop putting a bunch of "Mexican" TV in reality leftovers of Spaniards (they didn't just disappear) in their soap operas and news channels then I will take their message seriously. In otherwords till they stop putting Spaniards on their TV shows and using our language and relgions I say cut the BS.
Unvision is perfect example they do not show one true Mexican on their TV but only Spaniards.

Quintos, why do you think Spaniards have ownership of Catholicism? It really isn't "your" religion. In addition, the practice of that religion doesn't look much like what happens in Spain in many of the more indigenous areas. They have remnants of what the missionaries brought with them, but frequently it is liberally mixed with their version of it. Check up on the Yaqui Easter celebrations, for example.

As for language: that is what happens when a conquering country takes over. That's why Spanish is a Romance language and why every province in Spain doesn't have its own language. That's also why there are Arabic based words in Castillian Spanish that don't exist (or are seldom used) in the Americas. The dominant country imposes its vocabulary and most of its grammar on those it conquers. But never fear...the indigenous populations that lost their native language are working hard to bring it back and are being taught in schools. Mexican youth around Mexico City have been trying to resurrect Nahuatl for at least 20 years.

Movies and soap operas...can't say.

Many years ago, when I first moved to the Southwest, I was baffled by the Mexican attitude towards Spain as well as their attitude towards me as a US citizen. I have spent quite a lot of time and energy trying to make sense of it, and here are some of my observations. Take them or leave them...

First, while Columbus and Co. arrived in 1492, Mexico was under Spanish rule until 1810. You wouldn't have been surprised to find Spaniards annoyed about the Moors in, say, the year 1200, would you? The Spanish system meant that native born Spaniards had total power over indigenous people and even over the children of native Spaniards born in Mexico. So, if a wealthy Spaniard had a son born in Mexico, any other Spaniard from Spain could come down and govern over the son born in Mexico. In addition, the encomienda system gave the landowners (hidalgos) the land, whatever was on the land, and the natives to work it. That created the filthy rich/spit poor situation that exists there today. Furthermore, the Spanish system was patriarchal. Nothing could be planted or harvested in the New World without express permission from the King of Spain. Now, back before email, that could take the better part of a year. So crops withered on the vine and not much happened here by way of industry (in contrast with the British system which wanted industry to generate money.)

Every year, on the 16 of September, the Grito de Dolores is reenacted. In addition to "Viva Mexico", you may very well hear the original ""Mueran los gachupines" (gachupines was the most deprecating thing they could call a Spaniard...probably the equivalent of the n word, and curiously, when pronounced in a Spanish class full of adolescents it has the power to bring that group to paroxysms of laughter.)
The point here is that the scab of this particular wound is picked on once every single year.

Mexico now is on the verge of implosion. The poor are so desperate to come to the States to make a living that men (normally tremendously protective of their women and children) will carry diapered babies on their shoulders through hundreds of miles of desert in the middle of summer to get here. There are many reasons for the economic problems in Mexico, but it is easy to say that IF the Spaniards hadn't meddled with Mexico, then surely the greatness of the Aztec Empire would still exist and things would be wonderful. Simplistic, unrealistic, but infinitely better than looking at the mordida system and all the other forms of corruption that exists down there and dealing with it.

So, that is what I am coming to understand about the Mexican attitude towards Spaniards.

Espanol: Happy to report that there is no institutionalized effort by Mexico to debase and defame Iberia. Of course it's never happened the other way around either, regardless of what your textbooks may or may not say. I've had deep experiences in both nations, and have been treated equally well in both places, my peninsular accent notwithstanding. BTW: You're going to absolutely fall in love with Galicia.

Maestra said: Not much has changed for Mexico. It is a country that is a shambles. It's tech infrastructure is built gracias a international investment. The local governments are consistently bribed by the narcotraffickers, and the national government just put out a pamphlet for the aspiring illegal immigrant to "el norte." That doesn't put a lot of faith in the incorruptibility of the leaders at the top.

"Give me your tired, your poor..." has become the mantra of Mexico's leadership in the following form: "We're going to advocate exportation of our tired, our poor in order to alleviate our burden of responsibility for them. Then we'll freely allow the billions in dollars that they export from your nation tax-free back to our economy and give them nothing in return."

Political pontificating aside: I love the people of both countries, but it is no surprise to those who know me well to see that I have zero interest in returning to Mexico, which lies a scant 150 miles to my south, and is a land where I have dear friends. Instead I'll break my leg trying to catch a flight and spend time in Spain, which is thousands of miles away. The difference is not in how I've been treated, but rather in the level of security I feel in each place...and that's including an active ETA in the equation.

lamaestra writes I dont think Spaniards own Catholicism what I meant by our religion is that it is a religion that has its core population of followers in Europe and then it was applied to Mexico more specifically by Spain it is essential an occidental religion which Mexicans decide to follow it was imposed on them by Spain.

Their pride of being Indian sure doesn't show I was watching a Mexican movie a while ago and it was just a bunch of white people will they start talking Nahuatl soon? Most Mexicans connect with their "Aztec" past although their empire was a very very small portion of modern day Mexico.

Thats a racist statement to make then I could state that if all these immigrants weren't meddled with Europe we wouldn't have all this crime and other social problems. And eventually it will become corrupt just like Mexico just apply the shoe to a different foot.

Alot of Mexicans are partly Spanish many are more Spanish then Indians so how can they call us Gachupines when some of they themselves are Gachupines.

Qunitos, when you figure out the answer to that last question, please let me know! One of the must puzzling aspects of Mexican culture is that they don't seem to want to admit to either component of their culture. Many Mexicans bristle at the thought that they may be "indios" because that group to this day has the least amount of prestige and the least amount of power. Nor do they want to be associated with Spain because, of course, they were the conquerors. It has been said jokingly, though, that there are no rich Mexicans. Once they get money they all claim to be criollo...of direct Spanish descent! Imagine what you would feel like if you hated both sides of your family at the same time!

The Nahuatl was being encouraged by disenfranchised young people who are looking to regain some power, pride and identity. The Mexican people are fiercely proud of being Mexican and related to the great Aztec Empire (whether they were or not!), but also unhappy that their country cannot provide enough for them to eliminate the need to go elsewhere to find work. The fact is, many young folks, encouraged by the oldest in their communities, are trying to hang on to their languages...which is a good thing.

Many other religions are gaining ground in Mexico now. Jehovah's Witnesses have made some converts, as well as the Mormons. A lot has to do with people whose lives seem out of their control right now. They want to find answers, and some feel different approaches to religion may help them find answers.

Please keep in mind, Quintos, that a lot of hatred and mistrust comes from insecurity about oneself. It is terribly egotistical, in my opinion, to think that when I walk down the street of a country, people look at me and think about my ethnicity and whether or not I am "beneath" them. Yet some of my Mexican friends (people who have quite a bit of clout in this country) think that Spaniards judge them when they walk down the street!

Mexico is going through a very difficult time. The population is increasing tremendously, meaning you have a huge group of young people who are looking at a very uncertain future. While the government talked a good deal about improvements, nothing has gotten better...and now it seems that Fox is more interested in having us take care of the problem than he is about taking charge of his own country and cleaning up the corruption and abuse.

I felt angry when the hatred was directed at me, but I have come to understand that many of those who hate the most are terribly frustrated and frightened, and they vent all of this on us. I still don't like it, but I think I deal with it better now.

Mexico has to be one of the saddest story in the western hemisphere. It has as much or more in resources than the US, and or Canada. Yet is has always been near the bottom as far as GNP is concerned.

The current President of Mexico, Vicente Fox seems to feel that the way to cure his countries economic problems is to call his buddy in Washington, GWB, and have him take in all of his unemployed. We who live on this south border can attest to the problems that that mentality has created on both the economic ends and the social arena. Fox wants to send his people up here to work, but wants the American taxpayer to pick up the tab when one of his people checks out of the hospital. He wants the money flowing back to Mexico, but wants his people to be able to get US taxpayer subsidised housing. Not to mention the food stamps and any other govt program that they can find to jump on the band wagon.

As Calibasco said the Narcotraffic dollars are what Mexico is run on, and until that comes to an end, graft, corrution and payoff are the way of life. The average Mexican citizen is not allowed to own a firearm, yet all the criminal element owns firearms. Here in the US anyone can own a firearm,assuming they can pass the background check. Look at the way the average Mexican lives, look at the way the average American lives. "When guns are outlawed, outlaws will have guns."

The greatest gift that England gave the US, something that Spain did not give Mexico, was a legal system.

GWB likes to talk about a guest worker program, there are far to many details to be worked out on that and there are still years to go before it will be in place. At least one that will pass muster of us living on the south border.

About the only thing that Spain and Mexico have in common anymore is the language. While all governments have some degree of corruption, Mexico seems to have gained more than it's fair share.

This thread has been educational and a real eye-opener to me. Here in the UK we know next-to-nothing of the history and politics of Mexico. I suspect that Mexicans may distrust Spain in the way that (some) Irish distrust Britain. There is a glimmer of hope in the fact that Ireland's per capita GDP is now greater than that of the UK. Whether this is down to their membership of the EU, their educational system or foreign investment is something that can be argued about. It does show however that circumstances change. Maybe in 30 years time Mexico too can have a Tiger economy?

In fact, 30 years ago Mexico had a greater per capita richness than Spain

Fernando

Yea 30 years ago. Back then Spain was still in bad condition because of Spanish Civil War and other ecenomic problems.

Yep. there was a report on Mexico on the business channel here in the U.S. It said that mexico has 85,000 millionares. It has greater wealth than any other contry in Latin America and yet there are 10 million illegal aliens from mexico living in the U.S. It has to do with friends of friends of rich families profiting from their people. As for vincente fox , he has no plan whatsoever. He has not done much for the country except for sending more people to the U.S. That is his plan. No real structural reform. It business as usual.In boston many rich mexicans come here to study.

Fox has proven to be a dismal failure for Mexico and a "business as usual" type of president. He is going to have to realize that Mexico has to attack it's own problems and not export them to the US. His main problem is corruption and pay off of police by narco dollars. Payoff of police officers is done out in the open, and they make no effort to hide it.

Looking back and hanging on to use to be, seems to be a way of life for some people. Until such time as people can put away the past and move forward there will be no future for Mexico. Their hanging on to the past, is what is keeping them from moving forward.

Well put, Matador and Desert Dweller!
I don't know what, short of a revolution, could change things. The rich sure aren't going to have pangs of guilt about destroying their own country, and the poor aren't able to do much about it. I know those of us who scream "Enough!" sound cold hearted, but the US cannot solve all the world's problems. W has got to let Fox know in no uncertain terms that Fox is responsible for his own people...not us!

Mexican-British relations

Mexican people in general don't despise Spain or Spaniards. You ask them what their main concerns are and I guarantee you that resenting anything Spanish will not come up. In contrast to other comments here I have found very little negativity among Mexican people towards Spaniards. They're always ready and proud to say that they have a relative or ancestor that was from Spain. La Maestra mentioned M.E.C.H.A. That's a radical group of Mexican Americans or should I say Chicanos,(gawd I hate that word!)that denouces Spain but also denouces the United States too. When I was in high school we had a M.E.C.H.A. club. I was not a member of it. I couldn't stand the retoric and sounded too radical to me. Yes, Im of Mexican/Spanish decent but Im first and foremost an American. Another interesting point that La Maestra made was that Mexican people find themselves in a quandary. Not wanting to be identified as Indian or having Indian blood, but at the same time not identyfing totally with being Spanish. It is that pride in being Mexicano, a combination of both heritages that they identify with mostly!

I feel badly for these people that have to cross over the border leaving their families in search of work to support their families, it's not fair that their own government forces them to do this than to build up their own economy to provide for it's own people. If you take the time to speak with them they'll tell you that they don't want to be here. They know they're not wanted and feel the resentment, but what choice do they have when they face poverty and starvation back home? The vast majority of these people do send their money back home, (which btw a laborer here can make more in a week than he can an entire month back home)not to support the Mexican government but to support their families. Yes, Mexico does benefit because the money goes into their banks, but these people ultimately want to buy land and to build homes for themselves, something that is of great significance in Mexico, that is to own land. Now, one point I would like to make regarding medical care is that I would rather have these people being treated at clinics or emergency rooms than have them sick among the general population and possibly spread communicable diseases that we have either erradicated or have not seen here in the US! Not that I WANT to pay for these services but for now there's not much we can do about it.

I have always felt that if Mexico had been colonized by Britain rather than Spain it would be one of the most prosperous nations today. The perfect examples are of Australia, Canada and New Zealand, and the USA. All prosperous former British colonies. Although I can sight some countries that have failed to prosper after British rule. Spain took, but it really didn't give anything back to it's colonies! Yes, they have the language, surnames and transplanted traditions, but regards to taking care of it's colonies it really didn't do anything. Why do you think all of it's colonies rebelled? It also ignored California,(big mistake)! Even Argentina and Uruguay where the Indian population was low wanted to break away. If a child is neglected and ignored by it's parents eventually that child will resent them. The child will have grown up wondering what they ever did for him. Is it a wonder that the child would have resentment towards his uncaring parents?

"In fact, 30 years ago Mexico had a greater per capita richness than Spain."

Fernando

Quintos quote: "Yea 30 years ago. Back then Spain was still in bad condition because of Spanish Civil War and other ecenomic problems."

Quintos why do you gloat over the misfortune of these people? I don't think it's funny at all! I think it was a bit insensitive myself. Now, before you counter with how Mexicans are insenstive towards Spaniards, we need to focus on how to overcome negativity towards one another, and one of the best ways is with respect!

Thanks Oso....I am glad you responded.
I've been reading this thread and wanted to respond but there was alot to say and you covered some of it.
In my circle of friends and family there are no bad comments or resentment towards Spanish.This sounds so ridiculous to me.
I was born and raised in the US.Both my parents are Mexican and taught us our history but always spoke good things about Spain.
Even when I asked quite a bit of my Mexican friends they responded with the same opinion.
They said we don't even think about the conquest or talk about the Spanish in any bad way.What kind of people are you talking to they asked.I told them it was a thread and they made a stare like who in the heck is waisting time with that subject.
I want to know more about what's going on so I don't think it's a waste of time but I think in some cases we are hearing a one sided opinion.
I know La Maestra you said there are an alarming amount of educated Mexicans you've encountered that have resentment to Spain but this is not all of us.
In fact there is probably more resentment along the border towns in Arizona,Texas etc.with Americans and Mexicans,even within Mexico with the Indian groups which is a shame.
I live in California and zero people agreed with this Spanish hatred idea.I'm not saying it doesn't exist in California but I'm saying in my circle no way this is true.
We cannot generalize with a whole country or it's decendants.
I almost believe there might be a difference in age gropups here.Is that possible?
Most of my friends are in the 20 to 40 range.
I am hoping that is part of the difference.

Eduardoca, I don't know if it is an age issue. One of the people I spoke of is a Spanish teacher who refuses to teach anything about Spanish history! She says all kids need to know is how great Mexico was! And quite possibly, those of us who live a stone's throw from the border get more anti-everything than the rest of you do. There is also an extra dose going around in New Mexico...especially among those who subscribe to the Anaya school of thought. In California's history, didn't you go through a period where you were ruled by the dones rather than by Spain? Maybe that's part of it too. Mexicans here went to sleep under the Mexican flag and woke up under the American one!

I have't had random Mexican Americans come up to me and start talking about the Conquest, and generally in Mexico, folks have been very gracious. The topic comes up among students (12-18), but perhaps this comes in part from general teen animosity towards any authority figure. And, as I mentioned, MECHA was quite popular around here. The adult mentors were quite eager to talk against both Spain and the US.

As for an earlier post (Oso?) about the Indian vs Spaniard identity thing...I've had students scream "I'm not Indian at all! I'm Mexican!" when we studied the history of Mexico! They have changed "gachupines" to "gabachos" when they speak of anyone European, and it is never said with love!

California has a rich legacy of Spanish history with the establishment of the 21 mission chain from San Diego to Sonoma, presidios and large land grants from the King of Spain that established the ranchos owned by the Dons who became the aristocracy of California and governed all inhabitants on their land. The missions that were established were of great importance to the population. They worked there, were fed and protected there. And they were run by Spanish priests. The local peasantry looked up to the church and the Dons for protection. The missions today still hold a great importance to the communities that surround them. Several of them are still in use as parishes and are active in church services.

The Spanish crown did not see California as a source of revenue. It was, however, seen to have political/military importance in protecting New Spain's northwestern position in the Americas. Spain never did strengthen its military position in California sufficiently to thwart hostile military action but relied instead on the Spanish presence to pose a sort of political trip wire - hostile action in California would result in war with Spain. Political and military leaders in California charged with it's development and defense were constantly frustrated and angered by what they perceived as inadequate attention and support by their superiors in Mexico City. Authorities in Mexico City saw California as an economic drain on resources. It was a strained relationship at best.

After Mexican independence had been won in 1821, Californios (as they there were called back then)continued to feel neglected by the Mexican government just as they had been under Spanish authority. In California the political discussion revolved around the question of an independent California separate from Mexico.

In March 1842 a vaquero named Francisco Lopez brought some gold nuggets to the Mexican authorities in Los Angeles. A number of prospectors converged on the discovery site in Placerita Canyon in the San Fernando Valley. Mining commenced and about two thousand ounces of gold was recovered. California Governor Juan Bautista Alvarado sent samples to Mexico City and, in an associated report, suggested that the government send a scientific team to survey and explore to determine whether or not there might be more gold in California. The Minister of the Interior replied that Mexico had immense mineral wealth and that the California find did not seem to amount to much. He was wrong and, less than six years later, Mexico would cede California to the United States nine days after the largest gold strike in history!

You don't hear the resentment here from the Mexican population against Spain. We have a romantic view of our history with Spain. If you hear negative comments it's mostly by young and middle aged Mexican Americans that want to hold tight to their Mexican legacy and Indian roots. I may be wrong but I think this anti-spanish attitude may have started in the '70s when radical Chicano groups were trying to awaken the Mexican population in the US to take pride in their indigenous past and to embrace it rather than their Spanish ancestery. Afterall, the Spaniards were gabachos just like the "Americanos". Aside from extremists I've not heard resentment towards Spain.

Oso: I had to chuckle when I read you post stating that "Authorities in Mexico City saw California as an economic drain on resources."Have you been out of California lately to hear what the rest of the US is saying about it now? The more things change, the more they stay the same.

WERE SORRY, BUT CALIFORNIA IS NOW FULL! FEEL FREE TO INVADE ONE OF OUR NEIGHBORING STATES: ARIZONA, NEVADA, OREGON.

Fascinating thread. And I've just finished reading 'El complot mongol' by Rafael Bernal!!!

Oso: That is not what Guvana Awni would say, he can't stand the thought of all the people and business leaving the Golden State, for the three ajoining states.

Ever notice how these posts can get completely off the track. This started out as Mexico Vs Spain, now California is the target of the day. But then California is an easy target.

California is an easy target because it's so big! That and other states are jealous of it. People love to take jabs at us saying that we have all the nuts...oh really!? If we have nuts it's because every state ships it nuts out here, but what they don't realize is that we ship 'em right back out! California's economy is doing fine, we're not hurting to bring in money. We have the 5th largest economy in the world! The problem is state spending. As our beloved Governor pointed that out in his state of the state speach. The state needs to eliminate and cut wasteful spending. The problem is that politicians have their pet projects, and with so many liberals here of course there's countless social programs funded by the state. California would benefit from having people move out. Yeah sure, Arizona wants a cut of the business here and so does Oregon, but Oregonians don't want their state to become overpopulated like California, neither does Washington but that's what's happening up there. Since Californians have been moving up North real estate prices have increased, much to the anger of local residents that can't afford to buy homes up there. They see Californians buying up houses and land. The prices up there are at least 1/3 to 1/2 of what homes run down here. An average house in Los Angeles right now is going for $450,000. Here in Orange County it's slightly higher, and where we live they're going for $700,000, starting! And how big of a population can Arizona support with it's limited source of water? Im sure you're very aware of the water crises out here in the West and the big feud for water rights from the Colorado.

Yes, I do agree with you DD that topics do tend to wonder and branch out, much like a river. So to return to the topic let me say that Mexicans in general don't resent Spaniards. I don't know of any Mexican that is ready to trade his boots & sombrero for an eagled feathered headress and a loincloth!

Mexico is a country of chaos its funny that Fernando a Spaniard will start admiting that some third world country had higher per ca. then Spain thirty years ago. Some Mexicans are great people but ultimately im tired of the crap Spaniards and other Europeans get for killing the Indians and the Aztecs want to know why? Its simple because I do not care I do not care that Spain conquered the Aztecs or that small pox or whatever nocked out 90% of the population millions of people have died through out history and continue to die now we will all die some day my ancestors did not kill the Aztecs they stayed in Spain until 1992 and all except my mom are still living their I shouldn't be getting any flak from Mexicans for being Spanish although I do my ancestors have been living in Spain for hundreds of years and haven't conquered any body.! Its the same material over and over again.

Quintos, it's a good thing you're not German. I don't think you would be able to withstand the reminders of the holocaust. Oh, that's right, you wouldn't have cared!

" Quintos, it's a good thing you're not German. I don't think you would be able to withstand the reminders of the holocaust. Oh, that's right, you wouldn't have cared! [Roll Eyes]."

No I would not even if I was German I would not fell responsible this is because I believe that simple because you have an ancestor that was bad it does not mean that all of his relatives can be stroked by that same brush. You can't judge some one by looking at what his ancestors have done do I care that around 6 million Jews were killed by Hitler well im not going to repent for the rest of my life more Chinese were killed by Japan in WW2 then Jews by Hitler im not going to repent every thing bad. And people that have died in the past its simple impossible to fell like you care you can pretend but in the long you will go on with your life. I will die as will you do you think people still alive after other then relatives will feel for us get real they will not even bother this is human nature.

So who's asking you to repent? Not me! You brought up the subject of human nature. Well, Quintos, unfortunately it's human nature to feel resentment. And some will attach those feelings towards anything or anyone that represents to them the cause of that resentment.

You say you don't care, fine. So why do you let it get to you? You stated you're tired of others saying crap about Spain and Europe. Is Spain and Europe going to give you a medal for your concern?
Will England and France appreciate your efforts? They don't care, just as you don't care. But you do, otherwise you wouldn't feel the resentment!

I care about the here and now not about what happened half a milenia ago to the Aztecs im concerned about the future of Europe im concerned for my country and I have every right to be and their are many reasons to be worried it is justified.

Quintos, I don't doubt your passion for Spain. Is that where you were born? Since you have such an alarming concern for Spain and Europe, what do you plan to do about the situation there? Do you plan on attending college in Spain and major in political science? If you were born there then that qualifies you to run for some type of office. Do you plan to become a politician in Spain and become some sort of official there? Im not trying to be facetious here, Im being serious. You talk like someone running for office, that something must be done. So, have you thought of what you personally intend to do to change the situation there and Europe? Do your parents know how obsessed you are about something you have absolutely no control over?

You know Quintos, I was born here in the US, in Texas. This country which I love dearly has hundreds of problems, some of them very huge and serious and yes I am concerned but not to the point where Im obsessed and rant and rave how our country is going to be ruined because of this and that or needing to keep people out because these immigrants are bad, blah, blah, blah. You get my point?

I don't spend my time worrying and obsessing about these things, time is a luxury for me. I have no control over them except maybe to vote and write my congressmen. As a husband and father, my concerns are focused on my family. My wife is extremely ill. Im her caregiver. That's whom I worry about. My sons' future and happiness is my concern. I work 12hrs plus a day and come home and take care of my wife and sons, take care of the needs at home, finances, spiritual needs, preparing menus in advance so my family can eat while Im away. My wife can no longer cook and my boys are learning. Now with all this on my plate do you think I give a rat's ass whether the population of white America is dwindling or that of Europe? People change, cultures adapt, and governments can change in the blink of an eye. The wheels of life don't stop simply because we don't like what we see.

Right now, Spain is your passion. You're only 18yrs old, just barely starting out in life. I'd like to know if you will feel this way 10 to 15yrs from now as the priorities of life now become your main focus, possibly being married and raising a family. Trust me, the problems and concerns of any country won't matter as much in comparison to your own.

Osomayor I never really understood what exactly is so alarming about the fact I don't want Spain to have a majority Latin American and African population in 80 years you are being very near sighted why is this so alarming and shocking?? Do I wan't my people,culture and traditions to disapear and Spain to become a Islamic country it shouldn't be to surprising that the answer to that is no. If you think the answer to this answer to this is yes then you are very near sighted and are not looking into future. I do not oppose immigration but I do not support massive uncontroled immigration.

Your other statements I understand perfectly and they are well said.

Quintos: Ahhh now we understand you. It is ok for you as a Spaniard to come to the US and import you life and culture to America, but you do not want Latin Americans and Africans and as you spelled out Islamic people to go and import their culture to Spain. Nooowwww we understand, you can pollute the rest of the world with your culture, but don't anyone else pollute your land and culture with their cluture and beliefs. Veeeerrry interesting line of reasoning young man. Real interesting. There was a man in Germany in the 1920s an 1930s mercifully he killed himself in 1945, that had similar ideals to yours. I don't think at 18 you have had a chance to figure out what it is you stand for, or what you believe. My advice to you young man is to go out and get a job and work in the real world while you still know everything.

Dessert Dweller that is not what I have said I never said I do not want them to "pollute" Spain I said I don't want massive immigration into Spain from Latin America and Africa keyword massive I do not view controlled immigration or the immigrants as "pollution" I don't understand your annalogy with Hitler. Every political view has overlaps I may have some overlaps with some of Hitlers ideals but not his idea of a "perfect" Arayn race and extermination of Jews and obsesion with RACE not culture. Almost every political view overlaps with others George Bush has elements of fascism in his politics does that make him a fascist none sense. We shouldn't confuse tolerance with being stupid and letting millions of immigrants into a country come on. Oh and just make things clear I don't have a problem with an African "importing" his culture to Spain but I do have a problem with 600,000 immigrants arriving yearly to Spain understood?

Every country has some sort of immigration control and it's easy to see why this is necessary. But both Europe and I believe the U.S. need immigration basically to keep economies growing and also to shore up their pension and social security systems. Here in the UK, immigrants have made a very positive contribution. They tend to be extremely hardworking and place a lot of emphasis on education. I think the country is richer both culturally and economically because of them.

Quintos:The original purpose of this thread was Mexico Vs. Spain. Some how immigration has worked it's way into the posts. Had the original Americans known what is known today about immigration, the Europeans never would have been allowed to enter and take the land that is now known as the United States. I can assure you that in the late 1500 and well into the middle 1600s my ancestors had the numeric advantage. By the late 1600s the Europeans had both the numeric advantage and the fire power advantage.

Let us say for instance that the US had an anti immigration policy against Spain.You have stated before that you have been here for ten years now. You have had the use of American schools, and other benefits of being in the USA. You obivously enjoy the benefit of the 1st Amendmendment to the US Constitution. Would you have wanted to have been denied the entry to the US? By now, after ten years here, have you become a naturalized citizen? Being in this country leagally, and haveing obtained the age of 18,have signed up with the Selective Service? There is more to being an immigrant than showing up at the border and saying "here I am, where is the red carpet?" If you limit one, you have to limit all. Nobody is free, until everyone is free. The same goes for the Spanish borders.

As far as your Anti-Semantic feelings are concerned, you have allowed that to leak into other posts on other threads.

I for one did not appreciate you saying GWB has facist ways. However, as has already been pointed out, under the 1st amendmendment to the US Constitution you do have the right to say it. I may not agree with what you say, Quintos, but if need be, I am prepared to lay down my life to maintain your right to say it.

I wish you well young man. Maybe some day the whole world can enjoy the freedom that you have had for the past ten years. Just remember: A coward dies many deaths, a brave man dies only once.

GWB is a religious man and supports a strong military he has elements of fascism.

Quintos: Gimme a break. :p

My own experience was years ago, but at one point I lived in Mexico, DF, for an extended time, living completely in the local scene, and I got flak non-stop for: A) being a yankee; B) having a non-indian appearance, and; C) having spanish relatives and speaking with a 'spanish' accent. Forget it. My head still spins at the thought of the extreme lengths people went to to gain my confidence, only to take advantage of me to the fullest. It was like being 'Uncle Tom-ed' in spanish.
The good thing about the experiecne was that it was a real eye opener for me, as it was my first experience seeing how my country is viewed abroad, and I saw the history of my country from a very interesting perspective.
Yes, it all depends on the individual, but generally mexicans call all spaniards gallegos and have generally negative feelings towards them, which they are not reluctant to act on.
I went to Mexico a couple of years ago for a week, and I was amazed to hear the radio stations regularly broadcast a public service announcement issued by the gov exhorting people to cross the border to take advantage ot the system in the US, calling it a duty and a right of all things, as a way to eventually take back the south west!

GuiaGuiri, that's interesting and I didn't knew that.

I have some Spanish relatives that live in Mexico DF since they were almost children, decades ago. Their accent is mixed, but much more Mexican that Spanish (maybe mexicans notice more the Spanish dregs in their accent). Their look is obviously not indian. They never made any comment about this mexican attitudes towards spaniards, but I guess they just didn't want to speak about it or maybe they're so adapted to Mexico that they don't notice this attitude. I don't know, because I met them in Spain and I've never been in Mexico.

They do speak a lot about crime (one of them always carry a gun with him to protect his family and himself, what is almost unbelievable seen from Spain, at least it is for me). Do you think that their everyday life may become more dangerous because of they're white and/or they are from Spain?

I always thought that, of course, that could be an anti-Spanish feeling in Mexico for historical reasons, but I also thought it was limited to political matters, and that it was not spreading to everyday relationships. And, apart of my Spanish relatives, I've never met someone who has been in Mexico.

Many all a clear minority of "Mexicans" don't have an indian look.

Okay,

That's the modern definition of "fascism". Someone who's religious and believes in a strong military. That's why all you libs consider President Bush a fascist? Now that's revisionist history done to the absurd.

gazpachoa what I say is true Bush does have elements of fascism but he is a total reject of a president and he is very ignorant.

Also Gazpacho I do not consider Bush fascist I said he has elements of fascism. Ancient Rome had a very fascist character but was it considered fascist? No. It simple had elements of modern fascism in its society and government.

Quintos......This all belongs in the Political commentary portion of the BBS. I must comment on the fact that for someone so romantic on this issue, you truely know nothing about how our Republican Democarcy works in the U.S. You may not like Bush as our president but he is our Democratically elected leader and is bound by the laws of the Constitution and the laws imposed and voted on by our DEMOCRATICALLY Elected Congress. No Fascisim there.

There may be a rift but I doubt it has anything to do with the events of three hundred years ago. Many Spanish people feel that immigrants from Latin America and North Africa are causing most of the relatively new street crime. Before someone launches into a politically correct attack, I'm not saying that this is a fact, it is just something I have heard expressed while I was there. I have also heard Spanish exchange students from Madrid say this as well. I am involved with a club that sponsors exchange student and they mention immigration problems with regularity. This is a far more plausible reason for any rift that might exist.

Quintos is not in the same class as Ignacio was. I think if Quintos had been around in the 60s or early 70s he would have made a good campus radical. Possibly would have fire bombed a few college campus buildings, picketed in front of the White House. Keep him going, and keep stiring his pot, I get a kick out of his posts. From the Spaniards and Mexicans, to GWB being a fascist. What a swing.

Hang in there Quintos, don't let us wear you down. We need you to keep things interesting. For some reason you have abandon your middle east thread.

DaveB its called GLOBALIZATION.

Holas Quintos,

What is called globilization? Spanish people
complaining about immigrants?

Dave B.

I cannot believe that people think all Mexicans are dark-skinned and all Spaniards are light-skinned. I cannot believe that there are people making generalizations about how Mexicans feel about the Spanish. I don't think Mexicans "look up" to Spain any more than they "denounce" Spain. Mexicans have the same feelings toward Spain that they have of any country. We are closer in ties because of history and there are some political and economic agreements that are exclusive to us (Latin Americans can seek Spanish citizenship after 2 years of residency, trade pacts, etc.) As Benito Juarez said, "El respeto al derecho ajeno, es la paz."

Anyone who claims to know how all Mexicans think or feel knows nothing at all. We are quite diverse in our opinions, as we are in physical traits.

People...READ or something.

A white Mexican is a European immigrant SIlivita most white European immigration into Mexico was from Spain so these people are technically Spaniards living in Mexico sure nationality may be Mexican but I don't know if they are accpeted into the main stream Aztec pride brown pride grouping and a white immigrants to Mexico have occured from more then just Spain but Germany,and England etc. Spaniards are rarely dark skinned I have an entire family line from Spain my skin is not dark but white and had clear blonde hair when young so are you saying some Spaniards are darked skin well yes of course some are mostly due to tanning or just simple being dark but their not as common as the latino madness makes it out to be. Saludos

DaveB globalization is a world wide ecenomic market which completely ignores any cultural,ethnic,and lingual differences that may exist globaly I admit this works fine in America but I myself (this doesn't mean you have to agree) do not believe it would in all countries ultimately I think it should be up to the citizens of the country how much partake the nation should do concerning globalization.

Quintos,

It sure is good to see that you are not so ignorant like President Bush.

Im glad of that too at least I know that Spain is a constitutional monarchy and not a republic. Thanks for the compliment.

Silvita,

Thanks for putting things into perspective. Often, threads like these start because someone has a negative attitude to a subject, (in this case Mexicans), they would like to "discuss". What follows then are posts of the nature, "I know a Mexican who dislikes Spain/Spaniards..." therefore all Mexicans do in fact hate Spain.

And when a Mexican posts a reply saying that in fact they themselves and none of the people they know has this "attitude" toward Spain, well it seems it doesn't count.

Then when there is sparkle of interesting debate, like the present state of Mexican politics or borders and immigration, you can be sure someone will ruin this and bring up something dum like 'white Mexicans are Spanish immigrants', which brings me back to the subject of this thread. "Mexicans Hating Spanish?" Ok, it has a question mark, but what a ridiculous way to start a "discussion".

Miche and Silvita: I think that most of us have at one time or another used "to large of a brush when painting a picture." I know in my case that has happened on more than one occasion, and will probably happen again.

I think that the country that most Mexicans have a beef with right now, is none other than the USA. Vicente Fox and GWB use to be governors of adjoining states and developed somewhat of a freindship. Fox has tried since he got in office in Mexico City, to persuade his old pal George to let him send his economic problems north of the river. We that live in the south border states don't have problem with the Mexican wanting to come and work. What we have a problem with is the social problems, and added burden on our taxpayer subsidised programs. One of the small border towns here in Arizona, the hospital has millions in uncollectable accounts receivable, so much so that the hospital is in danger of closing. Take a guess at who has ran up those bills. Not all of them of course, but the overwelming majority.

Another problem that we have with the immigration is the way it is done. "Well there is the border, 150 mile north of there is the work, why should we bother with the normal port of entry?" So they cut across farm and ranch land, leaving in their path a trail of trash and debris. "While we are here we just as well tear down this fence so our cousins can cross easier manana." This problem is so bad that there are vigilanty groups starting to sprout up. That makes all of us in the desert look bad to have that start.

Then also along the border here in Arizona, is a very large military bomb range. Those pilots are flying at such a speed that they are not able to see more than a second in front of the plane when they make the training bomb run. When one of our border brothers or sisters gets killed of course guess what sort of bad press the US gets on the news down there over "the old mean US using combat jets to gun down their innocent people for only wanting a job." Never mind the fact that to get on the range in the first place they had to cross some of the most hostile terrain in the world, and in the summer some of the hottest temps. with no water around for miles. Still not to mention that it is posted for miles in both English and Spanish as well as drawn symbols in an effort to drive home the point "don't get in here." Every year hundreds die in this desert from heat and dehydration.

Once they get into one of the metro areas they are for the most part home free. They stand on street corners and wait for people to pick them up and work them at various types of work. It seems that here in Phoenix, Home Depot and Lowes are the best places to wait for some gringo to come along and work him for the day.

Those are a few of the reasons the Mexicans would resent the US. You would have to dig deep to find a reason for them to resent Spain, and the Spaniard. Someone made the comment about the radio making statements about reclaiming the southwest from the US, you don't have to get very far into Mexico to start hearing that.

Miche writes:
I have stayed out of this discussion because of the way the topic was phrased, as Miche rightly pointed out, as a ridiculous notion. I found this thread to be very insulting to Mexicans, and I am not a Mexican.

Generalizations without facts are just unfounded opinions. Anecdotal evidence lacks any type of validity. The only analytical way this question can be answered is if you have a random sample of say 2% of the Mexican population, that shows the assertion to be true or false, then you have something to discuss. I don't think studies like these have been done because of the stupidity of the premise.

Quintos, your assessment is ridiculous.

It is clear that you know nothing about Mexico or Spain.

Mexico is a country that like many Latin American nations is made up of mestizos. Yes, there are light-skinned Mexicans, there are Mexicans with indigenous features and there are Mexicans that have both. This is a result of the mix that happened when the Spanish conquered Mexico. My Mexican father's grandparents were from France, but that does not make him a Frenchman living in Mexico. That would be absurd. He is Mexican, considers himself just as Mexican as the indigenous person sitting next to him on the Mexico City subway.

Please learn, Quintos.

OK, it's anecdotal and it's not evidence but it made me fatflmao. I was studying in Seville in the mid-90s. I was sitting in the cathedral in Seville, for a couple of days straight, describing some of the biblical stories told in the paintings (especially in the retablo).

A young man of my age, but obviously of Latin American/indigenous heritage, walked past the crypt of Christopher Colombus and flipped him the bird. I figured it was a long way to travel to flip off the old guy.

Donna

here´s my two cents. I have lived in colombia and currently am in barcelona for a year. I have also traveled throught various parts of south america and the carribean. while living in ny i lived mostly in the colombian/latino neighborhood.

I have found that most latinos are a lot more friendly than spaniards. they like to know a lot about you and ask all sorts of questions. i do not find this here in barcelona, it seems like they don`t really go for foreigners. i must admit that i find a lot of the locals here kind of "stuck up". a lot of i has to do with the way they speak, it can sound (not that it is) a bit insulting. what is normal speech and facial expression here can seem rude to an outsider. I have spoken to several spaniards here who talk quite badly about immigrants. it seems to me when i am in south america, the people are a lot warmer. Most colombians that i know in colombia said they felt a lot better in the us than when they were in spain. hope i helped

I've read many of the messages posted on this thread, and many contain false or not accurate information. For example, in Mexico, Spaniards are not called Gallegos, this is a term used in South-America. Probably the average Mexican doesn't even know what Galicia is. A Spaniard was called a “gachupin” in Mexico, this term was rude, but later became as common as calling an American a “gringo,” which is used in a totally casual and friendly manner. However, the term “gachupin” is kind of old-fashioned and most young people don't use it.

Someone else mentioned that Fox and Bush were governors of adjunct states and since then developed a friendship. Fox was the governor of the State of Guanajuato in central Mexico, while Bush was the governor of Texas which is located across the border of northern Mexico. They became friends for other reasons, both are wealthy, religious, pro-business, and own agricultural land.

Mexicans do not hate Spaniards, but you have to understand that if you read the history of your country and see that someone came to your land and forbade your ancestors' religion, their language, burned and destroyed many of their sacred places, treated them like slaves, imposed a new religion on them, and looted the richness of the country for many years, you don't think it is funny or feel appreciation for that people. On the other hand, this happened so long ago that it is hard for a Mexican to take it personal. In addition, during the Spanish civil war thousands of Spaniards migrated from Spain and formed a vibrant community in Mexico and other Latin-American countries. Usually, these Spaniards were grateful to have formed a Mexican family and to have found fortune in Mexico.

The truth is that during the last decades these two countries have grown apart. Spain has focused on Europe, while Mexico on its relations with the U.S.

Richie, that is because most latin americans in Spain are the ones nobody wants...since there are no effective controls of our borders (thanks to our wonderful government).

As a Spaniard, if you were to ask me, on a scale of 1-10, what "value" I place on a Latin American, I would have to give a 1 (i.e., I do not respect the immigrants who come here and commit crimes and insult us).

As with everything in life, there are few exceptions. For example, none of the Mexicans I know are problematic and on the contrary, wonderful people...since most Mexicans in Spain are not the tiny people you see in the US...but rather, people with Spaniard ancestry.

And in the case of Moroccans...well, I think you know by now what we think here in Spain.

PS: Barcelona is a bad city...you should have chosen Madrid, la capital.

Funny that, most Spanish I met during my 6 months stay last year in Madrid did not share this opinion (although I did meet one or two who did). And even during my short stay I saw many Latin Americans who were working on building sites or in bars or as a nanny. None of them were committing crimes or insulting others. Unlike you seem to be doing. There are bad and good people in all communities.

Well, for long I have watched this topic no wanting to post because of the flames that could be ignited, but the post that filbert has quoted is TOO MUCH.
I hate the wave of racism that is taking over Madrid.

I'm with deibid and filbert.

I much prefer a latinamerican than other inmigrants. There are hundreds of thousands equatorians in Spain, and the vast majority of them just come here to work and earn enough money for their families.

The comment regarding the height or the color of the skin of mexicans is out of place (and borders racism and xenophobia). Being from one origin or other doesn't make you commit crimes.

Fernando

This is a forum of OPINIONS...and as such, I am unswayed by the comments of "racism"...those are already typical and most Spaniards (in private) or in a bar, say the same thing I am saying. Madrid has TOO many immigrants...and that is NOT my "theory"...it was the opinion, as reported by the EL MUNDO and other newspapers, of nearly 35% of Spaniards. Yes, there are thousands of Ecuadorians...(and many of them are unemployed and turn to crime in the metro...as you can ask any of the tourists who get robbed...many who are saavy report the nationality of the thief as Latin American).

Racism? Por favor...

So you hate the racism in Madrid? We Madrileños hate the rise of crime due to immigration and open border policies. Fernando, do not lecture me, please. I am stating my opinions (as you are also doing)...but I don't recall asking for a nanny or patrol. You say that "being from one origin" does not make you a criminal...when did I say this? I said, and I thought it was very clear, but I will say it in different terms:

the ONES WE HAVE IN MADRID are usually the ONES NOBODY WANTS (i.e. in more serious European countries with stricter immigration policy, they are expelled, and they are not wanted in their countries either). Yes, there are many working in bars...unfortunately for the Spaniards since our salaries have gone down because of it (I have family who own a bar so I know what I am talking about...even though they dont hire foreigners or sin papeles).

Construction? yes, and again, the quality of work has gone down...as it has gone down in bars.

But everyone is free to have an opinion...and I certainly will not let comments like "that is racist"...get passed me without a response. Think before you write.

As for Moroccans, if what you people meant was: "yes, latin americans are favoured over the Moroccans", absolutely...but I could do without either...and one post admitted that there were others with my opinions. Also, most of you are NOT from Madrid...so please do not presume to speak of a city that is not yours.

Esta va para Fernando:

Fernando, si crees que mis comentarios son fuertes...te ruego que leas el periódico ¡QUÉ! de hoy...edición de hoy...lo tienen en muchos sitios...y lee lo de las mafias...de colombianos, peruanos, etc...tiene una PÁGINA ENTERA dedicada al tema.

Yo soy de Madrid de toda la vida...y me dá asco lo que veo en mi ciudad...no sé si tu eres de Madrid o conoces el de antes...pero este no tiene nada que ver...y a mi que nadie me venga con cuentos...porque hasta mi padre es Madrileño...cosa que es muy rara.

This is an english speaking topic, and Que! is a horrible "newspaper", mostly sensationalist and worthless.
And we all THINK before we post.

Oh! I almost forgot... you are RACIST, face it.

ooooohhh I am racist...do you have the handcuffs ready? are you ready to detain me? Oh and I do not know where you come from but if you are from England or USA...you are talking about racism? such hypocrisy is incredible, considering both countries have historically been the true racist countries...not Spain.

and I suggested QUÉ for today's topic...but there are PLENTY of articles in serious newspapers like ABC and EL MUNDO.

Here I post some links for you:

www.el-mundo.es/papel/2004/03/10/espana/

(it is an article that you must pay for but it states: El 60% de los españoles considera que hay demasiados inmigrantes.

Casi un 30% de los jóvenes europeos cree que hay“demasiados” inmigrantes, según un sondeo de la ComisiónEuropea. (El Mundo, 9 de Noviembre)

Barómetro: 56,8% de los andaluces piensa que la inmigración es "negativa" y 68,6% que hay "demasiados" inmigrantes
(link: www.elistas.net/lista/andalucialibre/archivo/indice/151/msg/193/) I remind you that it is a socialist left wing site.

So how about you start looking at the facts, since you are a foreigner and do not know about our country, before you opine?

Extranjero yo?? look at the profiles,man!
Yes, it's a fact that most people think that there are too many inmigrants.
But what people thinks does not make a FACT by itself.
In Spain there are less inmigrants than in France or England. The problem is the rate of their growth, but they are necessary for our economy.
You don't need handcluffs unless you commit any crime, being racist like you are is not a crime. It's despicable, but not a crime.

I must interject here and now.

deibid, we don't allow this type of name-calling. Please be careful. Capitalino is stating his own opinion and that which he feels is a common opinion amongst people he knows. It is MY opinion that we're all racist AND hypocrites to some degree or another - whether we admit it or not. We shouldn't start building the fires for others until we look into ourselves first.

No name calling by anyone, please.

Let's try to stay on the original topic:

Saludos, MadridMan

I knew it! Well, I quit. It was better when I kept out of this topic.
My apologies to anyone offended, and I still hate the wave of racism that is taking over Madrid.
That's not name calling, is it?

No, deibid, that's not name calling. And racism is DEFINITELY NOT A GOOD THING. We all know it's NOT a good thing - I'm not saying it is - even racists themselves probably know it's not a good thing. But attacking people whom we believe to be racists doesn't solve the problem nor lessen the influence of racism. It might bring about awareness, yes, but calling/labeling someone a racist is not constructive criticism.

Now, let's get back to that original topic, please. Thank you.

Saludos, MadridMan

Madridman, thank you for your commentary...

Some would be shocked to learn that if I were a "racist"...I would not have worked for an African woman in Britain when I studied in London.

I am simply stating an opinion on something that is very important to me: the character of my city...and I am not used to seeing such uncontrolled immigration.

oh and to the one who calls me "racist"...I read your profile...it just says Madrid/Bilbao...it does not say where you are from. Does it matter to me? No.

I am of Jalisco, Mex. descent, I get treated badly by mexicans. What can i do?
I look European...
I don't hate Mexicans, but they don't accept me.

Armando:

Sorry, but I really doubt what you are saying.

1) The town you come from has a very strong Spanish influence. Many people from your ancestor's town are white. So you are not that unique down there. When you go there you must realize that many people look like you, how come they don’t accept you?

2) Do you think you are the only descendant of Mexicans that is white? Most of my friends in Mexico are white. Are they accepted in Mexico? Of course, they are Mexicans!!! Their families have been in Mexico for centuries and can't even trace their roots to other countries.

3) Mexicans are considered among the most social-family oriented people in the world. I hardly see a Mexican rejecting another Mexican just because he is white.

4) There’s still racism going on in Mexico. If you are white, people tend to think you come from a higher social status and consequently respect you a lot or try to make friends with you. So your European appearance is supposed to work in your favor, especially, if you are a Spanish native speaker.

I must admit that people from small towns have a harder time developing friendships with someone from out of town. Also people from one social status tend to be friends only with people from the same social status. However, this happens in most countries and you should be aware of that.

Capitalino, I was born in Madrid. Both my parents were born in Madrid, and three of my four grandparents were born in Madrid. If that is what someone needs so you respect his opinion regarding inmigration.

Of course there is a link between inmigration and crime. If someone leaves his country for another in such a poor condition there is a higher probability he needs to commit a crime to survive. Also, if you were born in a place were crime is high you are probably more willing to commit crimes.

But that doesn't mean that an inmigrant is automaticly a criminal. As I've said there are hundreds of thousands equatorians in Madrid and only a very small percentage are involved in crimes or are part of mafias.

Excuses for writting off-topic.

Fernando

did I say an immigrant is AUTOMATICALLY a criminal? Perhaps I might need glasses but I think I can read what I wrote.

A small percentage? Do you have a government source for this? Because according to the government, more than half of the prison population is foreign.

YOu know what, Capitalino, its just dawned on me. YOu are allowed to say that all Latin Americans are putas if they are not criminals. (spain v colombia)(ok by MM even though it is name calling).
Of course since you are stating a "fact" you are not racist. Of course Spanish prostitution doesn't or ever has existed. Neither is there such a thing as a Spanish thief or Spanish criminality.
hmm, and Mexicans are ok because they are of white/Spanish ancestory and so are incapable of not being "wonderful people" because of it. Let me rephrase that: Spaniards and direct descendants are of better breeding and incapable of commiting crime".

Congratulations, its ok by MM, so you're ok.

I personally, (of immigrant parents, who by the way are not criminals), should, I suppose be offended, but funnily enough, I'm not. You just seem a hateful phobic person to everything.

With all due respect to Capitalino, I was surprised to see that MM didn't edit Capitalino's comment about Colombian women. I found it really offensive. Otherwise, people should be free to express their views.

jabcha wrote: I've gone through Capitalino's comments and I've yet to find the one where he mentions Colombian women. Regardless, this topic is too hot. Time to get out of the kitchen. Topic Closed.

I must also say that Capitolino is creating quite a reputation for himself here - and not a good one, I might add. Please be careful around here, Capitolino. This is NOT a place where "anything goes" and I do believe in censorship to a certain extent. We've had your kind around here before SO WATCH IT. Consider yourself warned.

VERY Sincerely, MadridMan