Proof: Cristobal Colón was from Spain, not from Genova

I know that probably most of you still think that Colombus was from Genova (Italy). May some of you
have also heard about some other possible origin of Colón (that he was from Galicia, from Extremadura,...), but please take a read to all what this webpage says. I´ve read it and I have no doubt now, Colon was a Spaniard from Cataluña (there are lots of evidences for it). Believe me, this is not an imaginary recreation of hipothetical situations, it is just the explanation of many real things that concludes that Colon was from Spain. I don´t believe the histories that says that Colon was from Galicia, Extremadura, or others, I believe 100% what this webpage says and I´m not from Cataluña I´m from Madrid.

http://www.bcngrafics.com/cristobalcolon/index2.html

I wonder if there is a possibility to change History or at least do a revisionism for this important history. Is there any place in the US where I could post the ideas of this webpage, I mean, an important History Academy or similars?.
I wonder why the Genova idea was supported, they just found a Cristobal Colon that was also a sailor in Genova and made the mistake.

For example, look how many people that have the "Colon" surname there are in Cataluña (just in Barcelona there are 443, so imagine why is also so easy to understand that the real Cristobal Colon was from Cataluña as that webpage tries to support with a lot of other evidencies:

From the whitepages in (Barcelona (Spain):

http://cgi.elmundo.es/paginasblancas/cgi...amp;submit.y=10

ERT,
I looked at your website and I did not see any convincing evidence, only speculation. That is one of the problems with the Internet. Many times folks make assertions without any evidence to back them. As we readers evaluate a web site such as this one, it is important to note that it does not have any historical association affiliation nor attached to any university site. It may well be someone's wishful thinking or someone pulling one's leg.

Regarding the name "Colom" being popular in Barcelona, that is not evidence in and of itself. It just may mean that people called Colom moved to Barcelona at one time or another, or it could be that the surname could be common like the name MARTIN, which can be Martín in Spain, Martin, in France, Martin in England, etc.

Without academic(historical documents, etc.) evidence I am afraid that I cannot give credence to this website and would shelve it as a fanciful site.

I don't believe a word of what you have post in your website, and I don't even believe that you are from Madrid.

What I have read there makes me think two things:
1) The facts are manipulated
2) You are a staunch pro-catalanist (we just have to see how the facts tend to show Castilla as a represive kingdom and Catalonia as a democratic paradise)

Fernando and Isabel were two rulers which had very clear what they want. The things didn't happened by casuality as you state. The conquered new territories in coordination, formed alliances, married their children with forgein powers, made the same laws in the two countries (as the expulsion of the jews) and divided their areas of influence: the Mediterranean Sea for the Aragon Kingdom (in those times the official name was "Corona de Aragón" not Corona de Catalunya-Aragó, Catalonia was formed by small counties attached to the Aragón Kingdom), and America for the Castilian Kingdom.

I think that Colón (I have met with a direct descendant) was genevese, and that's all. If he was aragonese (or "catalonian"), why didn't he offered first the trip to the aragonese king Fernando? He offered it first to the Portugal king, and then to the Castilian Queen.

Fernando

So what's the point anyway? He didn't even discover América, some northerner/vikingo did.

Although the proof isn't that fake parchment, which was carbon dated to 1938! That gave me a laugh.

Actually, there's DNA evidence from certain Canadians Indian tribes that Indo-Europeans were in North America before the Vikings ever came into America. But the biased liberal American media tends to "twist-and-turn" things around so that only certain information is given out...but that's another story. :o

Biased yes, but liberal, no. The media serves the "empresariado" and its interests faithfully, while promoting itself as liberal.

Not really having to do with the original question, but on a similar topic, does anyone know why in English we use the name "Christopher Columbus" and in Spanish/(Italian too?) "Cristobal Colon"?

I think that the importance of Cristobal Colón is not really if he was the first european to reach America or not. The true importance is that after his arrival a colonization process like any other in history followed. That is the difference between the vikings which probably reached Terranova and Cristobal Colón.

For some reason the task of the discovering and the figure of Cristobal Colón are always dimissed by americans (north and south-americans), as his mere existence was an insult.

America was already "discovered" by its own inhabitants but that doesn't change facts, and facts are that it was discovered for Europe in 1492, before that year, Europe ignored the existence of it. And it has a great historic value because at those times Europe was the more developed and civilized region in the world.

The colonization process was a cultural shock like noone before.

That is: disregarding nationalistic considerations (if he was spanish, genevese, portugese or even japanese, or if America had already been "discovered") he was a man who achieved something almost impossible with the ship technology of the moment, and which has
great cultural consequences in the following centuries.

Fernando

...and people wonder why discussions end up involving arguments. As an American, I get sick and tired of hearing someone offer up crap as facts, then starting off on a tirade against the US, simply because a few people don't agree with the garbage they're slinging. As Americans, we have every right in the world of defending our institutions when they are assaulted by someone whose own nation's institutions aren't any better, or are worse than ours. We may love Madrid, and love Spain, but we aren't going to sit back and agree with you, just because you're Spanish, and "all things Spain are perfect," because it's obvious they certainly aren't.

I think the American press is a joke, but I certainly wouldn't be throwing that in the face of an American if I was a Spaniard. To think that anyone would believe the Spanish media offerings are anything less than "biased" is absurd. I've always believed you clean the crap off your own doorstep before you tell others to clean theirs up.

As for America down-playing Christopher Columbus, that may be true in some nations, but certainly isn't in the US. His memory is revered. We have cities named after him, a holiday, streets, and pictures of him throughout the nation, honoring him. Please seperate the US from any "generalizations" when it comes to him. Hell! MadridMan lives in a city named after him, if you haven't taken the time to notice.

We're not naive enough to believe he discovered the "US." What he did discover is "The Americas." He discovered it for what was then considered the progressive and civilized nation of Spain, for what was considered the progressive and civilized society of Europe. We know that. We just don't spend two hours a day for an entire school year getting into the political and sociological aspects of this singular event, because there's so much ground to cover, and that was just the opening of "European exploration" in the Americas.

I've always believed that along with the "right to speak your mind" comes unwritten clauses that says "speak with common sense," "be diplomatic," "know your facts," and above all, "act like a responsible person." If a person can't live by those little rules, they shouldn't be speaking their mind in the first place.

There's an old adage that should be considered.

"Put your brain in gear before you put your mouth in gear."

That might be aprepo at this time.

Wolf (Whose knees felt weak, and had a lump in his throat, when he was in Rota, at the site of where one of Columbus' pilots had lived. Tell me I don't respect the historical significance of the man, and what he did.)

Fernando,

That is not my webpage (I saw it last week and I´ve read it and I believe many of the EVIDENCIES -yes, evidencies, I think you have not read it- that are on the webpage. Fernando I´m not a procatalanist because I´m a madrileño -I don´t know why you don´t believe me. And despite his origin being catalan, he was a Spaniard because in 1492 all the kingdoms in Spain got united, so a catalan was as Spanish as a castilian or as a galician.

The webpage is the consecuence of the 40 years investigation of 2 persons having studied 9.000 documents. There are 63 pages in that website, I bet you haven´t read them so you don´t really know the evidencies of the website. And I know how to distinguish a suposition from an evidence. I repeat it, those are evindences

Evidencies (the evindecies are resumed in this webpage, it is different from the other webpage I gave you yesterday (in Spanish):

http://www.bcngrafics.com/cristobalcolon/

Read all of it please, I´m sure you can change your opinion about the subject.

For example this:

" El 3 de Abril de 1493, Colom es recibido por los reyes en Barcelona.
El rey se estaba recuperando de un atentado en el Monasterio de Sant Jeroni de la Murtra en Badalona.
Después de la recepción real, "se despidió de los reyes , y aquel dia toda la Corte de Palacio le acompaño a su casa" (segun los cronistas)
Colom se hospeda en una casa llamada Mas Sunyol (Badalona), casa que segun el archivo notarial de Barcelona, pertenecia en 1492 a la familia Colom de Barcelona"

It means that Colom after his voyage went to Barcelona and was hosted at the house Mas Sunyol (Badalona), house that belonged in 1492 to the Colom family of Barcelona.

Or for example this:

http://www.bcngrafics.com/cristobalcolon/23_la_indumentaria.html

In that webpage you can see (with pictures of the Descubrimiento) what were the typical clothes of the people that did the voyage. Those clothes were the tipical clothes of the catalan people of that dates: Barretina y "saravells".

Other evidencies that support the catalan origin of Colom:

"En el segundo viaje, organizado desde Barcelona, salen con Colom ; Bernat Boïl (y doce monjes mas de Montserrat), Joan de la Cossa ( dueño de la nave Santa Maria), Antoni de Torres, Francesc de Prenyanosa, Pere Bertran i Margarit ( jefe militar de la expedición , sobrino del ex-presidente de la Generalitat, Francesc Colom ), Miquel Ballester, Pere Casaus ( padre de Bartolome de las Casas) , Antoni de Torres, Pere de Sala, Joan de Serrallonga, Antoni d'Alemany, Pere de Requesens ( hay un Requesens almirante de la marina catalana en Lepanto ), Ramón Pané ermitaño de de Sant Jeroni de la Murtra, ( el cual escribió la Relación acerca de las antiguedades de los indios. en 1498, el primer libro escrito en America y el primer tratado de antropología americano) Ramón Ponç, Miquel Moliart (cuñado de Colom) , Guillem Coma, Lluis d'Urrea, Nicolau Esteve, y otros muchos catalanes más."

In his 2nd voyage those were the people that went with Colom. Most of them from Cataluña.

Or for example, it was very usual to call a foreigner "genovés", independently of his origin. In Castilla, the foreigner people was alwys called "genovés" as you can see in this part of the website:

"En 1497, micer Joan May, canciller de la Generalitat en Inglaterra, informa mediante una carta ( Archivo de Simancas) a Cristóbal Colom del viaje a America del catalán Joan Cabot. (naturalizado veneciano el 28 de març de 1476) "otro genovés como Colom" según el embajador del rey en Londres, Ruy Gonzalez Puebla.
En Castilla llamaban "genoves" a todos los extranjeros. "

There are many other evidencies, like the fact that Colon didn´t mention his genovese origin in any of their thousands of documents:

"En ningun documento hecho por él, pone que fuera de Génova, excepto en el Mayorazgo que todos los historiadores consideran falsificado por los genoveses para los "Pleitos Colombinos"."

... read it please.

BTW: Colom is the catalan evolution of Colombus, as Colon is the castilian evolution of Colombus. So the 463 persons from Barcelona that have the surname Colom is in fact Colombus or Colon, depending which language you choose.

And now, could any give me any ideas that support the Genovese origin of Colon?.

I forgot to say that the caucasian people that have been founded in America recently that are supposed to have lived in America prior to the what is called Native American people are Europeans from the North of Spain and the Southwest of France, and belong to the Solutrean culture 18.000 years ago, as you can see in the investigations that have come with the "Kennewic Man".

"At a professional conference at the end of October 1999, two prominent archeologists, Dennis Stanford and Bruce Bradley, suggested that the Solutrean people crossed the Atlantic from what is now northern Spain and southern France about 18,000 years ago and settled in North America, establishing what is now called the "Clovis" culture. This construction of the evidence is strongly supported by projectile points and other correspondences between the two cultures. We know that humans had been sailing around the Pacific for thousands of years prior to the appearance of the Clovis culture, so it is no great stretch of the imagination to suppose that the Solutreans used skin boats to cross the much smaller Atlantic in perhaps as little as three weeks. The fact that the shared Solutrean-Clovis technology appears at the same time in both Solutrea and Clovis - and nowhere else - strongly bolsters the idea that we are looking at two branches of the same people: a Caucasoid people. "

You can read more at:

http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theedrich/hive/Kennewic.htm

or search in www.google.com for "Kennewick man".

And finally say that I´m just a History fan and I like to read and read about it. When some historical issues have strong possibilities of have been manipulated or changed it is very natural to ask for the revisionism of those "facts" and come to the right conclussion. Do you remember Graham Bell as the inventor of the telephone?. Well, some months ago has been showed that Graham Bell was just a thief, and the case was revised and came to the conclussion that the real inventor of the telephone was not Graham Bell but Antonio Meucci (an italian inventor). So I think the possibility of Colon not being genovese but Spanish is another issue for revisionism, and I certainly believe that Colon was a Spaniard from Barcelona.

After looking at the following web page, I am convinced that I am not really American, but was secretly born in Spain and was transferred here to the United States at an age where it would be almost impossible for me to recall the transfer.

www.iwasmovedasachild.com/spain/to/america

I am petitioning the Spanish government for dual citizenship, as it's blatantly obvious that I was duped by my well-meaning, biased and liberal newspaper baron parents. Barajas here I come!

I have proof that CaliBasco is lying, and that he is really a Laotian secret agent. I also have proof that his real name is not "CaliBasco" and that this is just a clever ruse used to keep the authorites off his trail.

Curses! Foiled again!

Since I've been "outed" by Asterault...I'll play tit-for-tat:

Asterault is actually an anagram for the infamous Jamaican Marxist "Rasta Lute". Rasta Lute has lived in seclusion in Spain for some time now, but as you read this information, he's on the run to Getafe.

Wolf

Excellent post! I couldn't agree with you more. But I would also add to your list "the strength of character to admit when one's wrong (or that another simply has a better point)"

PS: For those who have been on this message board long enough probably remember a notorious flameout between Wolf and I. Let's just say at the end of any legitimate argument ‘respect’ goes along way to keep the harmony on this board.

JJP,

I'd totally forgotten we had disagreed on anything, and can't even remember it now.

"the strength of character to admit when one's wrong (or that another simply has a better point)"

An excellent point to add.

Wolf

Well, chalk it up to me having the memory of an elephant!

Whether that's a curse or a blessing is up for debate.

I believe that as members of this Board we owe it to the readership to stay within the boundaries of versimilitude. Unauthenticated and questionable websites must be introduced as such.The page that ERT introduced to us is a prime example of these types of bogus websites.

As an educator I constantly warn my students to be very careful of what they accept as fact in Internet websites. Just because it is printed in a web page does not meant that the content of the site is true or authoritative. Books and journals generally have strenuos oversight, particularly peer-reviewed journals, they stay within the boundaries of versimilitude.

While the Internet is a marvel it does lend itself to much missinformation.

Excellent point, Booklady... Just like any structure, the foundation is key. In a debate (such as this one) the foundation is the material we're discussing. Without a credible source, the debate is essentially worthless. Good ideas can still be discussed, but ... well, I think you know what I'm saying.

Booklady, did you say MULLETUDE???

here's a website we can *ALL* take with gigantic container of salt: http://mulletsgalore.com

oh, Booklady, i apologize. i realize you didn't mean 'mulletude' now... this was just my attempt at throwing something humorous into the mix of a thread that needed yet more 'jostling,' as it were.

you are oh so right in what you say about bogus information on the web. humans have a tendency to believe what they read, as tho just because something is in print it carries enough prestige to convince anyone that it is truthful.

besides, we all know that Cristobal Colon was neither italiano, español, ni catalan, but rather an alien and used the presence of his spaceship (which was on auto-pilot and floating thru the sky) to guide him to the new world. and we all thought he was just using the stars for navigation! hmmpf! right!

andrew
:wq

Amen Booklady...

If it was the Harvard University which told that Columbus was catalonian I would believe it, but I am not going to give credit to such a webpage (for me it has the smell of a nationalistic paranoia: kings of Barcelona a title that has never existed, impotent castilian kings,...).

Fernando

What! Mulletheads! Aliens!
No Soup for You!

Booklady,

Are there any sources that are completely trustable, and we have to bindly accept what they say just because 99% of the historians say so?, does it have to be originated by an official source (Academic source) to be the only thing credible?. What can you tell me about this 102.000 websites that claim that Graham Bell was the inventor of the telephone:

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=&n...ct=a ny&as_ dt=i&as_sitesearch=

What can you tell me about those thousands of official books that claim in the whole world in the last 150 years that Graham Bell was the inventor of the telephone? How can you explain that millions of childrens in the last 150 years in tens of countries have been taught that Graham Bell was the inventor of the telephone. Do you think those 102.000 websites are "authenticated" and "inquestionable" (in your words)?. The final conclussion is that Graham Bell was a lier and a thief, despite that official support over the years from official, authenticated and inquestionable sources over the world, and that Antonio Meucci was the real inventor.

Why revisionism?. Because revisionism study historic issues from different perspectives trying to claim what official sources have given as facts about an historic issue. So revisionism is the fight of a few investigators fighting against the ""authenticated" and "inquestionable" theories. So the same for the website I have told you. What is "Unauthenticated and questionable" for you?, does it have Colon to wake up and tell us in person that he was a genovese or a barcelones to know the truth?. When I say facts I mean facts (pictures of the time, correspondence, notarial documents, historical data, letters to the kings, biographies of the people living in the time, contemporary documents and biographers, ....). All of it is in that website. I believe there must have been a Cristobal Colon from Genova in that time but he was not the real discoverer because there was also another Cristobal Colon born in Barcelona at the same time that has many more documents, historical data, ....... that proofs that he was the real discoverer.

1. that website looks like it was made in a 1994 microsoft 'frontpage' for beginners class, which is the first red flag for me (aside from the tripe it preaches - anti-castilian for sure!)
( http://www.bcngrafics.com/cristobalcolon/index2.html )

AND,

2. Fernando, interesting how that website sets off the 'catalan paranoia' sensors for you. i'm sure you've grown up witnessing the struggle between the autonomies in a way that we have not. i won't add what my La Mancha pueblo die-hard friends say about Catalunya (probably more in rivalry than in seriousness).

yo!
:wq

[my edit]:
Booklady! i gotta know what soup i'm missing out on... if it's 'ajo blanco' i say no way! not fair!

ERT, in response to your question regarding how do I recognize an authoritative web page, I use standards developed long before the Internet, standards for evaluating the reliability of information. These traditional standards can be adapted to any resource and include the following:

Accuracy
Can the information given be verified by other sources? Are there spelling or other obvious errors that indicate less than scrupulous standards of publication?

Authority
Who is the author of the information? What are this person's qualifications for writing on this subject? Is the Web site sponsored by a reputable organization?

Objectivity
What are the aims and goals of the author? Is the material biased or presented to persuade the reader to adopt the writer's point of view? If the site is sponsored by a particular organization, are the goals and views of that organization presented clearly?

Currency
How up-to-date is the material presented? Is this important? Is the publication date or dates of subsequent updates easily determined?

Coverage
To what depth are the issues explored? If some aspects of the subject are not discussed is the reader told?

These standards should be used only as a guide to the reliability of the information presented. A "No" answer to a single criterion does automatically render the information unreliable. Used in an overall context, however, these criteria can be good indicators of quality sources.

booklady is flexing her academic muscles.

That's definitely good information on the method of authenticating "academic" materials. Interesting...

"Accuracy
Can the information given be verified by other sources? Are there spelling or other obvious errors that indicate less than scrupulous standards of publication?"

102000 websites, thousands of books, hundreds of enciclopedias, thousands of historians claimed that Graham Bell was the inventor of the telephone. A few investigators showed that all of this "reliable" sources were wrong and that Meucci was the real inventor.

"Authority
Who is the author of the information? What are this person's qualifications for writing on this subject? Is the Web site sponsored by a reputable organization?"

Is it necessary to have a Master Degree in History to be qualified to show historical facts?. Can any investigator without any historical career (just a normal person) and being just a fan of History that have readed thousands of documents be able to proof things that other believe as inquestionable facts?. The answer is YES. Does it need the website to be sponsored by a reputable organization to be more credible?. BTW that website is the consequence of 40 years of investigation but the website is not the source, there are 9.000 documents studied before it. The website was created by someone that have readed those 9.000 document and believe in what they say. Are the 102.000 websites (a lot of them probably sponsored by reputable organizations more credible than the few Antonio Meucci´s supporters?

"Objectivity
What are the aims and goals of the author? Is the material biased or presented to persuade the reader to adopt the writer's point of view? If the site is sponsored by a particular organization, are the goals and views of that organization presented clearly?"

About the rest...

"Objectivity
What are the aims and goals of the author? Is the material biased or presented to persuade the reader to adopt the writer's point of view? If the site is sponsored by a particular organization, are the goals and views of that organization presented clearly?

Currency
How up-to-date is the material presented? Is this important? Is the publication date or dates of subsequent updates easily determined?

Coverage
To what depth are the issues explored? If some aspects of the subject are not discussed is the reader told? "

I don´t have time to answer all of it but I think you haven´t read the 63 pages of that website at all.

Well, I have heard that Colon was indeed a MORISCO and he switched faiths in order to escape the Inquisition. Kind of like some of my ancestors...
Anyway, I think we can all agree that he was a man of vision and not some murdering opportunistic goyim that many revisionist historians make him out to be...

Shalom, y'all!

ERT,

i don't think anyone is doubting *YOU*, per se (unless you believe something crazy like Colon was not Italian. just joking ), but rather that the site you cited is not necessarily the 'oracle' of all things academic and therefore correct. that's ok, isn't it?

questioning sources is scientific in and of itself, as this is how we arrive to a conclusion with which we can feel confortable. can you imagine the theory of evolution being forced upon everyone if were just a simple idea with no scientific evidence behind it?

if you believe what the website has published as true facts, great. but please understand that your view may not be everyone else's, and that is not wrong.

also, thank you for posting that site for all of us to look at and judge for ourselves.

andrew
:wq

Well said, Andrew.

p.s. Of course you may have soup!

ooooh la la! zie soup may now be served! (in gay-paree voice)

Thanks, Booklady!

andrew
:wq

Real_megia, yes you are right, when I red it my "sensors" light up.

For me it doesn't mind if it is anti-castilian (the case), pro-catalonian, anti-catalonian or pro-castilian, or any other historic nationality. What minds for me is that the facts are clearly manipulated, that figures are presented in a partial way, and that the whole context is presented in a very perfidious way.

I don't mind if Colon was catalonian, castilian, genevese or chinese. He was an important figure of his time, point.

But I think the site is worth visiting if you want to see where people can reach when trying to present their region/nation/country as the best and most magnificent, and the others as a bunch of crap.

Fernando

This is an interesting observation. Fernando, I bring it up because you caused me to remember quite a few comments at my friend's wedding. Friends of mine from Spain are pretty evenly split from four regions (Madrid, Cataloyna, Pais Vasco, and Andalucia), and this last winter in Madrid generated some interesting remarks. The friends from Barcelona kept talking on and on how superior their city and region were. Likely only gentle rivalry, but I sensed something more.

ERT,

You're absolutely right about Antonio Meucci being the inventor of the telephone. That's fairly well documented through court records, and various other documents that have existed for years. This information has been gathered by scholars, intent on straightening out what seems to be a glaring error in history. But, regardless, Bell was the inventor of the first telephones used in a commercial venture, and that part of history stands. Whether or not Meucci was treated unfairly doesn't change that fact.

But, what does that have to do with Columbus? If you had documentation that rivals the Meucci documents, you'd have a case. But, alas, you don't, and neither do the people who are expounding their theories.

So, who was the first person to the North Pole? Cook, Peary, or Henson? Personally I believe it was Cook, and the second one was Henson. I'm not even certain Peary ever reached it. But that has nothing to do with Columbus either, does it?

Documentation and facts. Not inuendo and wishful thinking. That's what sways opinions.

Wolf (Checking his drivers license to make certain he is who he is.)

real_megia,
I´m not saying 100% that the site I cited is necessarily the 'oracle' of all things academic and therefore correct, but what I´m saying is that I believe 100% the documents they have in their site that proof that Colon was from Barcelona. The ones that haven´t read any of those documents in that website are the ones like Booklady that are not believing what that website says just because it doesn´t come from a reliable source. That is the reason (for Wolf) that I have compared the situation in that website with the situation of Antonio Meucci (102.000 reliable sources were wrong and a few questionable sources were finally right).

"But, regardless, Bell was the inventor of the first telephones used in a commercial venture".
It is strange... if Meucci was the inventor of the telephone why 100% of the people until know have believed that Bell was the real inventor. I think Bell didn´t invent the telephone at all, he just took the real invention of the telephone from Meucci and aplied it to commercial venture, so Bell didn´t invent the commercial telephone because the telephone was already invented.

Damn! I thought Al Gore invented the telephone! I thought I had the chronology down, too:

1: Denim trousers, 1956 Al Gore
2: Telephone, 1957, Al Gore
3: Internet, 1974, Al Gore

Now I don't know what to think!

As a Californian, I could not disagree with you more. "Christopher Columbus" is a dirty word in many parts of the state, and progressive school districts in California that refuse to lump together the good and bad he has done.
A brave explorer, yes. Accomplished sailor, yes. but let's not forget that there were people in North America who suffered because of him: disease, slavery, cultural elitism, religious persecution, and the roots of white, Christian superiority. I never had Columbus Day holidays at school or work in California, and now that I live out-of-state I am very surprised and uncomfortable at Columbus Day celebrations. In California, that date in October is Indigeous People's Day, in support of their 500+ year struggle for equality.


As a history student in college, we never assigned any country to Columbus, instead I found evidence that he was Jewish most convincing. That Columbus was Jewish neatly explains his lack of a nation, his imprisonment for which there is no historical evidence, his constant wandering (presumably to escape further persecution), his presence in Genoa which was a merchant town, since Jews at the time were a merchant class.

Wendy,

Nobody has said Columbus was a perfect person. What we were indicating is his role in exploration to the West. As for his being Jewish, that's been brought up throughout history because he worked for Jews in Spain. As for the imprisonment factor, that was after his exploration. Isabella would have never offered support to him had he been Jewish. Not when they were expelling Jews in the first place.

As for California's views on Columbus, it really doesn't change the fact that the majority of people in the US look to him as what he was. An explorer. Someone who opened up travel from Europe to the Americas. Someone who made it possible for countries like our own to exist. That is the part of Columbus we honor. As for what followed, it's a part of history too, but I'm certain Columbus didn't stand before Isabella and proclaim that he was going west so he could bring disease, conquest, and slave labor to the people. He was part of an era. As for his bringing Christianity with him, wasn't that what Christian Europe was about? They explained away a lot of their attrocities by saying they were spreading the word of God.

I do agree though - Columbus shouldn't be held up as a godly person. He was human. Recognize what he did, but also recognize what followed - just don't hold him accountable for what others did later. That doesn't make sense.

Wolf

I'm not sure about this statement. Christian Europe was a lot more about other things than spreading Christianity. And I don't know if they had to, in their era, explain away their attrocities. Therefore, hindsight is not always 20/20.

toddy, who appreciates the foggy historic mirror

Wendy, it's "Día de la Raza" not "Indigenous Peoples" day out here. It's also a revisionist crock of crap. It makes me happy to be a history teacher so that I can open the minds of the students to knowing both sides of Columbus, but as Wolf pointed out, to not blame him for what others did.

The other night in the locker room after my hockey game, one of my teammates went off with the old rhyme "in 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue". I made sure to add to that, "in 1492, Spain kicked out every Jew". With the Moors defeated January 1, 1492, and the expulsion of the Jews (and subsequent confiscation of their properties), Fernando e Isabel had extra "liquid assets" on hand which allowed them to even finance Columbus. Remember who he was "working for" in order to understand any of the things he did when he arrived in San Salvador...or whatever the name the place was given by the "indigenous peoples".

We seem to all agree that Colón was no saint...let's not vilify him for what Cortés and Pizarro or even the Portugese slave trade did years later. Let's punish him for his own sins, and not those of you and I.

And let's still take the 12th off if nothing more than for a great day of golf!

Helloooo, I said we lump the Good with the Bad. How is that revisionist crap? I like seeing the complete picture of an historical so I can make my own assessment. I never even learned that 1492 poem until college when it was in a preface to a novel we read for Latin American Literature. In grade school, we were too busy learning about the rich and diverse cultures he displaced.

I think, CaliBasco, that the use of Indigenous People's Day or Dia de la Raza, varies according to political correctness. Because La Raza is too remincisent of colonialism for some people and when I lived in Berkeley it definitely was Indigenous People's Day, a day of celebration for their culture while also mourning their losses over the last 5 centuries.

Wendy,

Did you say Berkeley?

Wolf

Hey man is that freedom rock?

Wolf and Asterault - LOL - once again!!!!!

I have a very trascendent question regarding this issue... What means LOL? I've seen it in this message board a couple of times, and I guess it is an abreviation, but I can't guess its meaning... :p

Fernando

Fernando - it's a question a lot of us have asked - and then we show off by using the expression. LOL means Laughing Out Loud as per Wolf's exlpanation to me when I asked the same question.

Thank you very much Puna!

Now I can sleep much better knowing it

Fernando

Día de la Raza or whatever p.c. term is in vouge is revisionism at its worst. Colón was no saint, as Calibasco as noted, but lets not depict him as some raving maniac hell-bent on spreading disease and distruction in the New World. Colón represents an important transitional figure in the history of western civilization. Some may wish to regect western cultural in favor of human-sacrificining Aztecs. I encourage those who have glorified the "indegenous cultures" (Lets not forget that they too had imigrated) and have chided western culture that they all just move to Guatemala, Bolivia, or Paraguay while regecting their wordly possesions. I´ll paraphase a quip by a member of the RAE that appeared recently in El Semenal, "Lets not forget that the western world has hundreds of years of hard work behind it, that work has permited our cultural and economic sucess." In short, thank you Spain for having financed those important voyages.

I too learned the refran as a child, and I was raised in California. Besides, MadridMan calls Columbus home which is reason enough to honor that courageous sailor.

PS, If your in Valladolid, you can visit one of his former homes.

je je je... Shawn, once again you chime in with
pure hilarity! also, Wolf, Cali, and Puna had some zingers up top too.

'dia de la what...??' 'indigenous people's what...?' i'm being facetious, of course i've heard of those 'days,' but i believe they are hogwash. why don't we have 'mechanic's day' to honor all the people that labor for hours over our horseless carriages?

Columbus Day is a fine thing to celebrate. he opened doors for travel that were not conventional for the rest of europe. cool.

of course i agree, the aztec culture, among a slew of others, were awesome! but c'mon, PC crowd, get real. the revisionist perspective is almost as whack as the reparations seekers perspective.

also, not all the jews left spain. Torquemada, charter member of the inquisition himself, allowed the jews to stay *IF* they converted. so many jewish families (including my own, 'mejia' is a sephardic jew name) converted and played the game, but never truly gave in to christianity. many of the ended up minding the finances of the Isabel and Ferdinand, and so on... (according to 'geografia e historia de espania,' published by ANAYA, used as a spahish high school text).

anyway, i hope i haven't 'offended' anyone too much. after all, the PC crowd, who get all uptight about 'offending,' have offended me with talk of beating up Comlumbus, but it doesn't matter to them because you can only be offended if you are in their club.

¡viva Colon! (jewish, italian, catalan, spanish, whatever...)

andrew

No Asterault...it's Schoolhouse Rock... My personal choice in the Time-Life music series is "Metal Ballads", though. Aaah, nothing like the soothing sounds of Winger and Mr. Big. Pass the studded wristbands, please.

Helloooo to you, too, Wendy. Yes, it is revisionist crap. I meant no offense by it. By the way, the Stanford-9 battery tests kids on their knowledge of nutty refrains from history. Did you go to "la prepa" in California? :p

It's a good thing that all of those woes were concentrated in what is today the United States and Canada. Who knows what would've happened if Admiral Syphilis and the Amazing Christian Elitists would've been able to extend their vise-like grip south to Mesoamerica and the South American continent. Centuries of civil war and hatred? Governments dependent on the drug trade? The Amazing Collapsible Economy? Widespread corruption? Indigenous groups of people slaughtered and enslaved? I shudder at the thought.

BTW [that's "by the way" Fernando ], what is this "roots of white, Christian superiority"? Down here all I see is "brown pride" and multicolor brush art painting on the sides of vans showing an Incredible Hulk-esque "Aztec warrior" with his curvaceous and voluptuous "Aztec maiden" at his side. If that's not revision I don't know what is.

P.S. The poor, helpless, "victims of cultural elitism" enjoyed sacrificing humans to the rocks they worshipped. They also enjoyed a priestly class of "supernaturals" who ran the entire show...whether you were Aztec, Maya or Inca...Mexica, Chichimeca, whatever...your boss was the cleric. If you subscribe to the white, Christian superiority myth, one can always just say that their preachers were simply replaced.

Sincerely,
Chac Mool

P.p.s. Please stop sacrificing people to me. I'm a stone statue for crying out loud.

"Metal Ballads" - i can just see the metal mullets with their fishnet and makeup, his and hers makeup, that is, having a romantic stroll alongst the ocean, hand in hand.

'just let me rock!' - saxon

Love,
Yngwe Malmstein

pd> 'white elitism?' sounds like envy to me... i couldn't care less what color someone is, but oh i guess that's just because i'm white. sorry, but you revisionist PC'ers are the ones who are racist. does it matter that i have jewish roots? probably not. the jews are not a race, even tho originally they may have been.

P.C. historical revisionism suffers from epistemological arrogance, that's why it fails to convince!

This search for 20th century definition of perfectionism in our historical figures is bizarre. Blaming Columbus for being a man of his time is ludicrous.

I guess there's no soup for me!

Booklady,

Hell! You not only get soup, I'll buy it! We'll get it from the "Soup Nazi" in NYC. What'cha think?

Wolf (Hoping he's not too "politically incorrect.")

Wolf, Thank you for the invitation, I would love to go to NYC, anytime! I love NYC! BTW does the Soup Nazi really exist, or is he a Seinfeld creation?

I have been reading all these posts with great interest...maintaining my aquarian diplomacy and not jumping on either bandwagon (the brown revisionists or the white elitists) as I would have to jump on both and would fall in the middle on the road of division. Did that make sense to you?

The most interesting of all this is the revisionist perspective and how many Latin Americans (gosh I hope that was politically correct) want to preserve their cultural heritage. Kudos to you!

My parents were just here visiting Spain for a month. It was fascinating listening to my father point out so many of the parallels between the Spanish culture and his native Filipino culture (which I know sadly little about). What left me with my jaw adrop was when I asked my father about the Filipino culture PRIOR to Spain´s occupancy. His response? The Philippines counts its history from the point of Spain´s occupancy, not before. To me, that is sad. I would bet my bottom Euro that the Philippines, with its indigenous people, the Malay, the Tasaday, etc., have a very rich and fascinating history.

It is also sad that there isn´t more done to educate America´s children on the history of "The Americas" before the arrival of the Nina, Pinta, Santa Maria, Columbus, the Mayflower and the hoards of Anglo Saxons to follow. Granted, at that point it wasn´t America, but it wasn´t either upon Columbus´ arrival. Our public education of the indigenous inhabitants of the Americas (called Indians only because Columbus thought he was in India) extends little beyond tomahawks and feathers, the Sioux and the Apache.

Oh I´m sorry, this thread is about the validity of Christopher Columbus, not world history (one is the continuation of another my friends).

Well, to some he is a villan to others he is a hero (in my hometown of Phildelphia, he is a hero...has a major street named after him, a bank holiday, a parade, a monument and a huge Italian community to boot). That is usually the case with any public figure. One has to look no further than George W. Bush, or sadly, ETA. (uh-oh, did I open a can or worms or what?? :p )

Personally, I think Columbus came from the Philippines before they were the Philippines (named for Spanish King Felipe of course) and his real name was Columbusay. Or maybe he is an ancestor of Rocky...or maybe...

P.S. I just re-read the chorrada of my post and bust out laughing and thought "oh God, what a bunch of mumbo jumbo". Oh well, at least I expressed my 2 centimos worth.

Chica,

Your point is well put in reference to native history in the Phillipines, as well as the Americas. The problem is that the people who have to maintain the history of the past are ones who are descended from these people. If they don't maintain a record of it, and allow it to die, there isn't much anyone can do to preserve it.

But one need look only further than their own family to see how little we actually know about our own ancestors. Millions of people spend endless hours tracing their heritage - their families - through time. We usually know so little about them beyond grandparents. If we don't maintain our own gealogical trees, and can't take care of our own history as a family, why should we say that anyone that doesn't do it for another is an elitist?

My wife and I are both part Indian. As such, we are proud of it, but since the history of Native Americans is so sketchy, because the history was basically passed down through tales around a campfire, it would be wrong for us to blame the European enclave for our own loss. We have to shoulder the responsibility ourselves, for failing to document it properly, so it can be included in the total history of North America. It wasn't up to Columbus, or Peter Stuyvesant, to sit around a campfire and discuss it, and put it in writing. It was up to the Indians.

What concerns me most about revisionist history is that it doesn't seem to be an attempt to add historical facts. The whole intent seems to be more intent on destroying that which has been recorded. If a person doesn't agree with that perspective, you are automatically labeled an Elitist. I totally disagree with that view, and since I do, I'm automatically an elitist.

Interesting isn't it? If you don't agree with me, you're the enemy? If I'm the enemy, why should I give a damn about you and your history? A sad state of affairs, but that's where we stand today. Let's hope people quit throwing rocks at each other, and try to "add" history to our various cultures. We don't have to "destroy" one to make room for our own.

Wolf

That street will always be Delaware Ave, Columbus Blvd. doesn't stick...

yeah Asterault! Tell that to all the Italian-American business leaders in Philadelphia. You know, the ones whose names are forever immortalized in that unusual monument to Christopher Columbus on Penn´s Landing.

Ahh William Penn....another interesting character in America´s history.

Booklady,

Yes, the Soup Nazi is real, although he don't like being called that. http://home.earthlink.net/~asena/soup.html

As most New Yorkers who have bought his soup will attest, he's a jerk on a good day, but his soups are to die for.

Of course he gained popularity from Seinfeld. In fact, just by entering "soup nazi" in your browser, you can find knock-offs of his famous recipes. They ain't half bad, although most New Yorkers will tell you there's something missing. My guess is - his warm personality -

He has a great gezpacho when it's available. Someone told me it's a cross between Spanish & South American. Waiting in a line that stretches down the block and around the corner is quite normal for his little place. It's amazing at how successful he is. It proves that even jerks can make a good buck if they have something great to offer.

Wolf

Wait, the Soup Nazi is Catalan? And he discovered America and butchered the natives? Wow you can learn a lot on this board.

[/QUOTE] Wait, the Soup Nazi is Catalan
Heyyyyyy, leave the most advanced part of Spain alone. Without the Catalans, where would Spain be?Donkeys and dirt roads come to mind. je je je

So... back to the topic:
Here's an extract from today's Metro newspaper:

"Un equipo de investigadores exhumó ayer los restos de Diego Colón, hermano pequeño de Cristóbal Colón, para realizar pruebas de ADN, compararlas con los restos del almirante conservados en Sevilla y la República Dominicana, y determinar cuál es la verdadera tumba.

Los restos de Diego, que falleció en 1511, fueron descubiertos en 1930 en el jardín de una fábrica de cerámicas en Santiponce, Sevilla, cuyo propietario compró, y hasta ayer no fueron cedidos a la ciencia para analizarlos. Las muestras de ADN aclararán si Diego y el descubridor de América eran hermanos por parte de padre, o si Cristóbal Colón era hijo bastardo del príncipe Carlos de Viana.

"Estos son los huesos más interesantes de todos, porque determinarán, no sólo dónde está enterrado Colón, sino que irán más allá y nos dirán si era originario de Génova o de Mallorca", dijo el historiador Marcial Castro, el director del proyecto, a los periodistas. Además, los restos de Diego Colón permitirán conocer con total seguridad si la verdadera tumba del almirante es la que se halla en Sevilla o si, en cambio, es la de Santo Domingo"

To sum up in English:

Yesterday, the remainings of Diego Colón, Cristóbal Colón's brother, were exhumed. The aim is testing his DNA and comparing it to Cristobal's DNA, this way scientists will know which of both graves (Sevilla or Santo Domingo) contains his remainings. They will also know whether Diego and Cristóbal had the same father or Cristóbal was Prince Carlos de Viana's bastard son.
Finally, Marcial castro, director of the project, afirms that these test will determine Cristóbal's origin (Genova or Mallorca).

I heard the idea of Cristóbal Colón being Spanish from two friends with a history degree. They told me that, at university, several teachers supported this theory. It wasn't clear that Colón was from Genova.