Morocco invades the Perejil's Island

In what seems an unprovoked attack a group of morrocian troopers invaded yesterday a very small desert spanish island near Ceuta.

The excuse is that they need it to control the migration fluxes that passes the Estrecho and to control terrorism in Gibraltar. This is obviously false, since the island is barely 200 metres from the moroccian coast (and they could place a base in their territory). But they know that by claiming those reasons they could soft the american and british reactions.

That island is not protected by the NATO agreements, so NATO has stated that the conflict is a bilateral issue.

None of the press of the dictatorial state of Morocco has reflected the conflict. In the case Spain reacts military, the moroccian population will think that Spain attacked first.

They have done it now, before the summer, because they know that a military response will harm the tourism in Spain.

So the situation is that if the spanish government does nothing, Morocco has conquered a spanish territory, and they could do the same in Ceuta, Melilla or the Canarian Islands next. If the government responds militaryly, they know the conflict could scalate, and that the NATO and EU will not support the action. Since Morocco says every time they can that they are fighting Al Qaeda terrorism in Gibraltar and their territory, the US has an excelent relationship (as good as the US has modified its point of view regarding the referendum of the Occidental Sahara). Morocco has kicked spanish fishermen from the traditional fish places, and has given permissions to both France and the USA to extract oil and phosphates in their territory.

Also, they have by now introduced legally or ilegally half a million moroccians in spanish territory.

With this perspective the spanish government has only answered Morocco what they want our relationship to be, and to maintain the last status quo of two friendly countries.

We will see how this ends

Fernando

As Fernando points out, this situation is getting alot of press here in Spain and has the Spanish authorities concerned although the EU is considering it a matter between Spain and Morrocco for the moment.

I did a little digging around on CNN´s European site and came up with the following article:

Spain-Morocco Conflict

Certainly something to keep an eye on.

The story was on the front page of The Guardian here in the UK yesterday. They pointed out that this could not have been done without the consent of the Moroccan king, whose wedding celebrations are underway this weekend I think. The story mentioned that so far the King has not carried out the democratic reforms he promised upon taking the throne and this has come as a disappointment to many Morrocans. We'll just have to see how this develops and I think its a time for cool heads all round.

I havn't seen anything about this incident in the papers here in the U.S., nor on the TV news. I think that the news is too consumed with the stock market, the drought(at least in my area of NC), and worldcom. The first time I heard of this was this morning on yahoo España. ...that's my two cents...
PFitz

I saw a blurb about this in today's Chicago Tribune, but nothing else.

If Bricamb is correct about Morraccans disatisfaction with political reform, then this begins to smell like the Argintine invasion of Falkland Islands in 1982. Cause an international crisis to stifle dissent at home.

If push really comes to shove here (unlikely), you can bet the US will back its NATO ally, Spain.

possibly kurt, but if Morocoo is claiming that it is contuining to fight Al Qeada terrorism(helping the US with the war on terroism)and has set up a good relationship with the US, I could see the US supporting Morocco. It's interesting, I could possibly see it go either way.
PFitz

This has been in the New York Times from the start and is on CNN as well.

Morocco is posturing, and this stems from their young and by all accounts foolish king, who is endangering his country's well being. Of course Spain will not attack Morocco, but they might suspend their aid (and the EU might also) and eject some of the Moroccan seasonal workers here, whos remittances are valuable for their economy.

Who's signing up? We'll fight them in the air... on the ground...

Nuke Rabat! Nuke Rabat! And take back the Spanish Sahara while you're at it! ¡Bastardos marroquíes! How dare they overrun an uninhabited island...and with a huge military force of 24! This to me is a lot like the invasion of Americans that go to Cancún every spring and raise the American flag there. The Moroccans will soon understand why Perejil is uninhabited and leave...even if it takes the Spanish military to "show" them why it's uninhabited.

CaliBasco [Who has neither been to nor plans to go to Morocco...unless they serve La Casera there]

July 11, 2002, a day which will live in infamy, the goats of Perejil Island were suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Kingdom of Morocco. Well, actually 12 blokes in a rowboat, but who's counting?

War! The goats must be freed!

As mentioned - the NY Times and CNN have been covering the Perejil (aka Parsley) situation quite completely.

Asterault - your sense of humour seems to be developing a bit of distinctive Wolfishness !!!

I was laughing out loud at a couple of your comments.

I talked to one of my friends from school who has been livingin Morocco for a while because his dad works for some nucular power plant (he is there right now) and when I asked him what he thought he emailed me this-

"I don't know whats up with these crazy Moroccans, they probably got hight, got lost and thought that they had landed on the island of Ibiza. That crazy Moroccan sh*# (refering to Hash) will do it to you. Bueno, I'm going to go get high (not that i condone these activities but he's my friend) and see if I cant follow in my fellow Moroccan peoples footsteps and find my way to Spain."

¡Victoria!

We have driven the foul and cowardly enemy from our shores! Perejil shall remain forever ours!

¡Toma cabrones!

As Asterault has telled in advance: At 6:15 this morning a task force comprised of naval forces, fighters (F-18) and a small group of special forces. They have taken 6 moroccian soldiers as prisoners and inmediately send them to Morocco.

Noone has been injured or killed, and the task force has planted the spanish flag in the island. The Government has informed their allies in NATO and EU, as well as the UN.

Morocco has qualified the action as a "declaration of war". Of course this is not going to end in an armed conflict (a war) because none of the countries wants it. They will protest, but with the amount of troops placed near their coasts they would be mad to do anything (Spain has at this moment 3 frigates, 2 to 4 submarines, 2 corvettes and a numbered amount of smaller ships, while Morocco has 1 frigate).

Even now, our government is still asking the government of Morocco to go back to the last status quo, having friendly relations.

I just hope this to settle, so both countries could have normal relations.

(But what the heck, that island was spanish territory)

Fernando

From what news I've seen, it seems that Spain's actions had the prior blessing of both the EU and NATO.

How much of this is really due to the portion of Morocco (northeast????) that is demanding independence - an independence that seems to have some solid support throughout the EU?

There must be things they don't tell us. The relations between Morocco and Spain beguin to go bad when Morocco decided not to let the Spanish ships to fish in their waters (they had a compensation for leting them to do it, of course).
Spain has always been in favour of a referendum in Western Sahara, and still does, although France and USA and of course Morocco prefer some kind of autonomy for the region, specially since some American companies will explote the oil found two years ago. I don't think the position of Spain in this subject would be so important, anyway I'm not an expert on international laws.
Anyway, I think those things shouldn't be enough to let the relations get worse and worse...that's why I think there must be more ..
I hope this finish OK, and we become friend nations again asap, and of course that this don't affect the relation between Spanish and Morocan people.
Puna I don't know if you refer to Western Sahara about the zone which wants independence, which actually is south west. Don't know anything about north east, although in Algeria there have been disturbs in the Cabilia region this year, which is a bereber region close to Morocco's north east.

¡Todo por la patria y arriba España! It's nice to see Generalísimo Aznar step out from behind his bad-porn-actor-moustache, sac up and do something. You've got to draw a line in the sand [literally] with these N. African superpowers and tell them "not in my backyard" when they try to overrun your population centers. May the goats of Perejil know only freedom from this day forth!

¡Para las cabras y contra los cabrones!

My opinion: The political situation is very very complex.

The Western Sahara (currently a moroccian territory west to Canarian Islands, in the south of Morocco) was a spanish colony until 1975. At that time Franco was dying, and Spain was under great political pressure (being a dictatorship) by the UN and international powers to abandon the Spanish Sahara (that was the name at those times) and give it the independence.

The dictator and king Hassan II of Morocco was claiming (also with Mauritania, at the south of the Spanish Sahara) the control of the spanish colony. The spanish government was expecting a military attack, but the moroccian dictator did a smart, but horrible move: He sent 250,000 civilians (children, elders, women,...) to the Spanish Sahara. The spanish forces did not shot. And in some days we gave the control of the Spanish Sahara to Morocco and Mauritania (which abandoned it some time after what was called "the Green March").

The tiny population of the Spanish Sahara was abandoned by our pitty government (they were spanish citizens with all of the rights) and then the dictator forced them to the exile to the south of Algeria, and repopulated the Western Sahara with moroccians.

Since the fall of the Franco's regime, our now democratic governments have historicly supported a solution to the Western Sahara conflict: the referendum supported by the UN, in which only Sahara's natives could vote in. Morocco has always delayed or deny the referendum, with the support of France (which, with the loose of Algeria as a colony, lost all the influence in the zone, and would want Morocco to be an allied country).

Morocco is now a key international country. It is an arab moslem country, but in which the integrism is controled. The US considers it as a friendly country which could support its fight against terrorism. Some weeks ago the USA changed its historical position for the Sahara's referendum against it (one more reason is that Morocco is going to give exclusivity of oil and phosphate mines in the Sahara to US and french companies), leaving Spain, the UN and Rusia as the only powers supporting the referendum.

As you see it is a complex problem. But there is more. Spain had historical fishing zones in the coasts of Morocco, but they decided to kick our ships (which are now being dismanteled) for environmental reasons (weeks after our ships leaved other countries' ships arrived). The true reason was that Spain denied the moroccian tomato exportations to the EU to be sold in equal conditions in Europe (cause that would go against our own tomato production).

Then the moroccian government decided to grow the tension by retiring their ambassador in Madrid without any reason (it seems the reason was the support for the referendum in the Western Sahara).

Days ago they invaded the Perejil Island (which lacks any strategic or economic value). The reasons are stated above: the Sahara's issue, the other commercial conflicts,... They first excused the invasion telling that they wanted to have a control post for the illegal inmigration and the terrorism in Gibraltar (12 soldiers alone in a piece of rock without any material?). Yesterday one of their ministers said that it was only a soberignity issue (both countries had an agreement for wich none of them would place military personel in the island). The reasons for the invasion are that they have an historic claim for spanish territories in the north of Africa: Canarian Islands, Ceuta, Melilla, Alhucemas Island, Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera, Chafarinas Islands and the Perejil Island. The wedding of the king was also these last days (the invasion could be a way to increase nationalism). Also, Morocco is now having serious internal trouble.

Today Spain has taken control of the island, putting a break to a conflict that could scalate more, and to the moroccian policy in the last years.

Fortunately there has been no injured or killed in the assault in both sides.

Now the story continues... we will see what Morocco does now.

Hope this information is useful to understand this conflict.

Fernando

The story continues... the moroccian king has sayed today:

"This is a flagrant agression"

"Spain wants to transform a political conflict in a military one"

It seems they think that their invasion was a scholar summer camp...

"Spain wants to impose the things as a fact"

Exactly the spanish response to the prior ocupation. But the spanish government sayed that they wanted the things to return to the status prior to the moroccian occupation.

"It is contrary to the international laws"

Also a sentence pronounced by a spanish minister days ago. Breaking an agreement is for international laws? Invading a disputed territory?

What a king...

Fernando

Thank God they stopped the Moors before they retook Granada and set up again in the Alhambra! That was probably their plan all along. That way, they wouldn't have to hope for tourist passes weeks in advance just to get in to "their" original palace!

¡Hombres! ¡España te necesita! Aux armes citoyens!

I think Morocco is conducting their typical idiot 3rd world diplomacy. No takers here. If they want the island they can buy it, until then too bad!

Perejil Español o pa' nadie!

See, I knew you Spaniards were just as patriotic and nationalistic as we in the US. LET'S TAKE BACK A LITTLE ISLAND AND THEN LEAVE, GUNS A BLAZIN IF NEED BE! (sounds a little franco like). I guess, as a very proud American, I'm tired of the pot calling the kettle black. Now, you just need an anthem with words.
Remember, make believe spanish pacifists, MOST Morrocan people are good hard working people and the Spanish economy needs them!
Many people on this site sound very very racist!!!!!!!

Toddy
Patriot=Franquista??????
¿¿¿¿De que vas tio!!!

Uh, the difference is we're not taking it too seriously...

Franco? Who was he? :p When I was born he was already death... Do not confuse things toddy.

What we have here is nothing about patriotism nor about who has the control of a desert island, but a free democratic country fighting to defend its rights against a dictatorship ruled by an absolutist king which do not respect international diplomatic rules.

There are 250,000 moroccians working legally in Spain, and 1,500,000 moroccians which pass through Spain coming from other european countries, going back to their country. Absolutely no problem with them. It is their government which want to tense the situation, not them (at least not yet).

Besides, Asterault and the others were only joking... (and they are not spaniards, but just live here...).

Fernando

Here is a little tongue-in-cheek humorous website about the Perejil Island Conflict .

Some of you might find it offensive (advanced warning) but I thought the likes of Asterault and Calibasco would get a chuckle out of it!

Thank you for that hilarious site! I recommend the "Imágenes" link...Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go change my pants.

That reminds me of an old poster I saw in Bilbao (and subsequently bought from an HB member): It had the Batman character played by Michael Keaton, but he was called "Pazman" and wore the tricorner of the Guardia Civil...does anyone remember that classic from a decade ago? This site reminded me of it as they had random pictures of leaders and entertainment figures with clever quotes underneath them...

In your theatre soon:

Fernando,
do you really live in Spain. There are still a lot of Franco supporters (who would love to go back to those days) AND there is a growing far rightist movement. And is Spain a true democracy if the King must sign certain things?

I guess if it makes you feel good and you can now beat your chests machismo like to take back the little tiny disputed island, then so be it. Just beat away! Ole!

Well Toddy, that is your opinion, an opinion that I don't agree at all.

First of all you should know that what you call "Franco supporters" (how can anyone support someone who is dead...) have 6,000 votes over 20 million total votes. If that is the growing rightist movement...

Perhaps you call "Franco supporters" to the ruling parting (Partido Popular). In that case I may assure you that the Partido Popular is far, far away to the left than your Democrat Party (which is the main "leftist" party in the States).

"And is Spain a true democracy if the King must sign certain things?"

Yes. We voted in a Constitution what model of country we want, and we decided to have a Parlamentary Monarchy. I don't mind if it is the King or a Republic's President who sign things. What I mind is that we have the ability to decide our rulers (and the King has no executive power). That is democracy. If Spain is not a democracy for its King then, what are United KINGDOM, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Norway, Sweeden,...?

Morocco is not a democracy because the King has absolute power. He has the executive power (decides in every issue of the country), he has the legislative power (because he dedices which is the ruling party), and has also control of the judicial power. So moroccians are not able to decide which their rulers are. That is the reason Morocco is a dictatorship.

"I guess if it makes you feel good and you can now beat your chests machismo like to take back the little tiny disputed island, then so be it. Just beat away! Ole!"

Don't you think that is a child statement?

No, I don't really care for that island. I don't mind if the Morocco government wants to negotiate is sobeirgnity with our government. What I do care is that they take it by arms invading it and the next second they say they are going to do the same with Ceuta and Melilla, two spanish cities in which the 99% of its population wants to be spanish (40% of which are muslims, jews or hinduists).

It seems as if UK may reconquer the Fackland Islands, or the USA may attack Irak, but we can't protect our population because that is to be very macho...

Do you even know what the moroccian arguments are for claiming those territories? They are near to them. With the same argue line, Alaska or Greenland should be canadian, French Guyana should be venezolan, and Hawaii a posession of some pitty pacific country.

So please, think twice before stating such things...

Fernando

Please don't drag the US into the situation in reference to Parsley Island, or even sit there and throw out inuendo that the US was an aggressor against Iraq. The US acted in defense of a nation that was over-run by the Iraqis, and with a mandate from the UN, along with assistance from Muslim nations. There is no comparison, and to say we should surrender Alaska & Hawaii is as absurd. It doesn't have anything to do with a football field sized piece of rock that's in the Gibraltar area. Hell! There hasn't been anyone on the island for forty years.

As I indicated in a thread a few months back, it was only a matter of time until Morocco took a stance that Mellila & Ceuta belonged to them, not Spain. The situation over Gibraltar has only strengthened their position in making this claim. If Spain feels they have the right to "demand" that the Rock be turned over to them, the Moroccans feel they have the right to "demand" that Mellila & Ceuta be turned over to them as well. It's local politics, and has nothing to do with dragging up the Falkland Islands, or any other situation from the past. Deal with what is happening now.

As for Spain's "close relationship" with Muslim nations, you can say "adios!" to it. If you step on the toes of one Muslim nation, you make a certain amount of enemies in each of those states, and you can count on them backing Morocco in the end.

Wolf (Who hates to say, "I told you so!," but I did.)

Thank you Wolf!
It seems that many europeans love to bash US military actions, but when shoes on the other foot their nationalistic tendancies come to the forefront. Who cares about the worldwide fight against terrorism. Who cares about the public humilation of a "moderate" muslim country. We want our little rock back and when we leave you can't haaaaaave it. (who's the child now)

I only wanted to say that the comments made by Toddy on Spain not being a democracy for having a King along with some other of his comments are to say the least ludicrous and unfortunate.

(Toddy says "who cares about the fight against terrorism, and the public humiliation of a moderate muslim nation"); What the heck are you trying to say?, that Spain should give up to the claims made by Morocco (they dont give a darn about Perejil, they actually want Ceuta, Melilla and the Canaries), in order to the Western World to keep in good terms with Rabat?. You have to be joking.

You are just trying to provoke and anger the spanish audience in this forum and the best way they can respond is probably by ignoring you altogether.

Can a leader delete this poor "post by accident" Thanx

Daniel b: Thank you very much.

It is very curious that when I made the comparison between the situation and other military actions made by the USA you two leaped at me (even if I didn't say that I disagree with the use of force by the US army...).

Gibraltar is not comparable with Ceuta and Melilla, and I'm going to give you reasons (not a simple proclama as the one made by Toddy based on their antipathies to europeans):

1st) The soberignity of Gibraltar was never given to England, only its use. It was a spanish territory first. Half the airport of Gibraltar is built on plain spanish territory which use was allowed when Gibraltar suffered an epidemy (not in the Treaty of Utrecht).
Ceuta and Melilla have been spanish since the 15th century, in which Morocco didn't exist as a country (because they were separated nomad tribes at that time).

2nd) Gibraltar is a colony, and Ceuta and Melilla are cities.

3rd) Spain is claiming a co-sobereignity of a british colony in spanish territory, while Morocco is claiming the sobereignity of two spanish cities with the only argument that they are near moroccian territory.

4th) The inhabitants of Gibraltar would have inmediate access to british or spanish nationality, with the same rights and an wide autonomy as a territory. Morocco is a dictatorship, and spaniards living in Ceuta and Melilla would have to emigrate, or live under restricted rights.

5th) Spain is using diplomacy to solve the Gibraltar problem, while Morocco is using military threat to claim the posession of these two spanish cities, and other small islands of the north of Africa.

As I have said before, the problem is not an unhabited island. The problem is that they were occupying it and at the same time they were pointing to Ceuta and Melilla as the next targets.

The same way you two feel that the USA can use a legitimate force against some countries to protect your people you should allow other countries to do. Or do you two think that the only country which may use force in a legitimate way is the USA?

"As for Spain's "close relationship" with Muslim nations, you can say "adios!" to it. If you step on the toes of one Muslim nation, you make a certain amount of enemies in each of those states, and you can count on them backing Morocco in the end."

That is your opinion, but you show you have some gaps there... You have obviously not readen the Algerian reactions to the issue (do you think algerians are happy to have 150,000 saharauis in their territory because Morocco forced them into exile?), you have not readen the libian and tunisian offers to intermediate, you don't know that the european representative in Palestina is a spaniard, or that the spanish contacts with the arab countries are important.

However, I'm glad that your current government does understand the situation. 5 hours after the invasion of the Perejil Island the spanish government said: "We have no intention to have a permanent detachment in this island, we will leave it if Morocco guarantees (because they violated the previous agreement) not to occupy it again." Colin Powell has given such guarantee, and by now the spanish forces have leaved the island.

You may continue to throw your frustrations with europeans and spaniards, I will try to continue to asnwer with arguments

Thanks for reading!

Fernando

<yawn!>

History confirms Leila islet is Moroccan territory, testimonies
Morocco-Spain, Politics, 7/18/2002

Several Spanish historical documents and testimonies evidence that the Tora or Leila island is a Moroccan land which has for long been the object of colonial covetousness, said Moroccan historian Hakim Ben Azzouz.

Ben Azzouz recalled in a statement to reporters that in 1746, King Fernando VII gave instructions to draw a map of the islet but that the mission entrusted with the undertaking found out that the islet was not a Spanish land.

In 1751, the governor of Sebta attempted in vain to take possession of the islet, as his attempts were foiled by the combative Anjra tribes, the historian said.

He added that the British government repeatedly requested from Sultan Moulay Slimane in 1799, 1801, 1802, 1803 and 1804 an authorization to build over the islet the residence of the British General Consul, settled then in Tangier. All these requests were turned down.

In 1808, the King of Spain dispatched a squadron to help Morocco liberate the islet after it had been occupied by the British governor of Gibraltar.

After the islet was liberated in 1813, it was the object of requests in 1814 and in 1831 on the part of Great Britain which wanted to set up there a coal storehouse to supply its boats sailing in the Mediterranean. Similar requests were again made to Morocco by the United states in 1835 and by Great Britain in 1841.

During Moroccan-Spanish negotiations in 1860, Spanish military, led by General O'Donnel, wanted to extend the borders of Sebta to the islet, but Morocco rejected the proposal.

On November 13, 1887, the Spanish ministry of public works erected a small enclosure on the islet and planted the Spanish flag. The same day, the Sultan's delegate dispatched few soldiers aboard a small boat and the enclosure was destroyed and the flag handed to Spain's general consul.

Geographer Cala Galiano, head of the hydrographic department at the Spanish navy ministry, published on November 22, 1887 in the paper "Epoca" an article evidencing that the Leila islet was indeed Moroccan land. On December 3 of the same year, the Spanish Prime minister, Moret, made an unambiguous statement at the House of Representatives, that there was no doubt the islet was Moroccan. He reiterated the same statement before the upper house.

The paper El Correo noted in its release dated January 1888, that it became crystal clear that the islet was Moroccan and that there was no document at the (Spanish) foreign ministry nor at the consulate of Spain in Tangier evidencing the contrary. The islet is well and truly Moroccan and sentry guards were deployed there few days ago, the paper wrote.

After he mentioned all these chronology dates, Ben Azzouz said it is necessary to underscore that Spain which has never occupied the Leila islet had amazed everybody on February 26, 1986 when it disclosed a draft bill on the autonomy of Sebta extending the city borders to the islets of Badis and Leila. Morocco protested the draft and conveyed the protest to Spain's embassy in Morocco on January 5, 1987.

And my dad can kick your dad's ass!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!! Now THAT'S funny! Thanks for lightening the heaviness of this topic, Asterault. I got a good laugh out of that.

Fernando (et. al.), what Asterault said is a childhood saying we have here in the USA when there's nothing left to say in the heat of an argument.

Too funny. TOO funny. Saludos, MadridMan

Cheers and Salud Astersault!
I toast some good(which is all of it) Spanish wine to that!
At the end of the day, we can all be amigos!

A statement from the Spanish government's office was released shortly before the troops were withdrawn. "Spain and Morocco have reached an agreement over Perejil Island that means a return to the status quo," it said.

"The government of Spain thanks the U.S. Secretary of State, Colin Powell, for the work undertaken to facilitate this agreement."

Your welcome!

I know MM, but you also know that I like dicussing heat topics

Toddy, your history article of the Perejil Island is accurate, but is intentionally incomplete. I really don't mind if the island is moroccian or spanish at last. What I mind is that both countries knew it was a disputed territory, and that they had an agreement for which none of them would place troops on it (which Morocco obviously broke).

Something of what is missing in that article is for example that the island was occupied until 1964 by spanish troops, and that from then it was never occupied again. And that it was considered a territory of the city of Ceuta when the democracy came.

To be brief, Toddy, you have readen the statement of the spanish government, saying that an agreement was achieved and thanking the intervention of Collin Powell.

The moroccian statement was as follows: "The spanish government retired the spanish troops from the moroccian island Turah, also called Leila, thanks to the successful contacts did by His Majesty the king Mohamed VI."

Instead of cooling things down they insist on provocation by stating the island is moroccian, and they said nothing of an agreement eased by Colling Powell. Also, it is ridicolous they behaving on this issue about the name of the island. They first called it Perejil (which means Parsley, and which it is said it was the historical name), since it is spanish, they quickly changed to Leila (which is a deformation of "La isla" made by the local population), when this has been demonstrated, they check ancient maps and found that the moroccian name is Turah or Torá. It lacks of importance, but is one more thing which demonstrates their intentions...

Fernando

Actually, Leila: &#1604;&#1610;&#1604;&#1563; in Arabic means "night", so it's not an adaptation of Spanish.

It is also a common woman name, but that doesn't mean it is the correct name in arab for tha island. Even if that is the name, it is clear that they didn't know how the island was called (because they switched from Perejil to Leila, and then to Turah).

Fernando

Although I live in Saudi Arabia, my knowledge of Arabic is little. However, could it be that the name Leila for the island Perejil came about because there is no letter or sound for the letter P in the Arabic alphabet? The charts I have seen don't show such a sound. Perhaps someone more knowledgable with the Arabic alphabet can shed more light.

Here are some comments from Charles Krathammer of The Washington Post (www.washingtonpost.com) which touch on many of the postings made on this subject:

"...After Morocco's non-accidental "invasion" of Perejil, everybody got into the act. The European Union declared "its full solidarity with Spain." NATO, which could not even use this worthless rock for target practice, weighed in on Spain's side, too. The Arab League predictably lined up with its fellow Arabs, declaring Perejil "a Moroccan island."

Not exactly "The Guns of August," although the way far-flung allies, who had not even heard of this misbegotten rock till last week, lined up instantly behind one or the other of the aggrieved parties had an eerie, ghostly echo.

Now, Morocco will hardly go to war over Parsley Point. For one thing, Morocco is no match for Spain. For another, the timing of the whole stunt, during the three-day wedding of the Moroccan king, Mohammed VI, turned the invasion into a cheap, if bizarre, wedding present to himself and the nation.

Nonetheless, this comedy holds some serious lessons. Europe berates the United States for holding on to primitive notions of sovereignty at a time when the sophisticated Europeans are yielding sovereignty to Brussels, adopting the euro, wallowing in Kyoto and, most recently, genuflecting to the newly established International Criminal Court. Yet here they are lining up in lockstep to defend Spanish sovereignty over a piece of worthless rock that only dubiously belongs to Spain, by supposed attachment to the other dubiously claimed Spanish enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla, that in turn are little more than colonial anachronisms on the coast of North Africa. This same Europe heaps scorn on the United States for defending an infinitely more serious sovereign claim -- to democratic legal jurisdiction over its own citizens and soldiers rather than yielding it to the arbitrariness of the new criminal court.

Even more important, however, is that the War of Parsley Point reminds us of the corrosive irredentism for Islamic lands long ago taken by the sword and then lost to the sword. We forget Islam's astonishing early successes. From a standing start in the early seventh century, it conquered Arabia, North Africa and Spain within 100 years. Muslims have not forgotten. The later loss of Spain, to say nothing of European colonialism in the Arab world (including what remains of Spanish sovereignty in Morocco), still burns. After all, how did Ayman Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden's deputy, begin that first post-Sept. 11 celebratory videotape? By invoking the loss of "Andalusia" -- southern Iberia, lost to the Christian infidel the year Columbus sailed the Atlantic. For many in the Islamic world, it happened yesterday.

Much of the conflict in the world today -- the Philippines, Kashmir, Chechnya, the West Bank, Sudan, Nigeria and now on this ridiculous little rock in the Mediterranean -- represents the Islamic world, once expanding, long contracting, pushing out once again to reclaim its place in the sun.

As Samuel Huntington has written, the borders of Islam are bloody. At least in the War of Parsley Point, no one has been killed and no one is likely to be. It will all end with the game's being called on account of silliness. The game goes on everywhere else, however, not as farce but as tragedy."

© 2002 The Washington Post Company

Interesting article, but yet simplist. To say that the "arab" countries are a block is the same that saying that all America is a block, or all european countries are a block with the same interests and problems.

Philippines is not an arab country, but catholic (but has an important muslim community). Sudan is a muslim country, but it is not arab, the same as Niger.

Algeria and Morocco are arab countries (well, with different tribes, as the alauis, berebers, who descend directly from germanic populations, saharauis,...) but they are not friends, but have a sour relationship. See also Iran and Iraq, or Kuwait and Iraq, Abisinia and Etiopia,...

And the article is also incorrect. Ceuta and Melilla have never been moroccian (I repeat: never), and Al-Andalus was an independent caliphate, emirate or kingdom when 70,000 arabs invaded the Iberian Peninsula, conquering the 17 million inhabitants who were and remained in general christians.

Fernando

The name "Leila" is not a dropped b, parsley in Arabic is "baqdoons" or something like that as I can remember, vaguely. Regardless of what the stupid island is called, the name in Arabic is not an adaptation of Spanish.

Arabic in principle has no p, but it has been included as people don't really run around drinking "bebsi cola" or "doctor bebber."

And the Washington Post is a reactionary rag.

Here's to hoping that the Moroccan army, now with nothing to do and leftover ammunition, comes over to my place and puts a bullet in my head so I don't have to continue to audit "HIS 256: N.African Silly Conflicts of the 21st Century: An All-too In-depth Analysis".

Sitting thousands of kilometers away everything seems stupid, including the "silly" Parsley Island (even if I have explained why it has some importance). I guess the most easy is to minimize this issue, say that this is another spanish "cachondada" where we have overreacted.

And I still fail to see what is that funny when a neighbour country menaces your own fellow citizens... (as the moroccian representatives are doing every day).

Could someone explain it to me please?

Fernando

So...... Fernando, what you're saying is that Spain does not claim the island anymore? Hah, Spanish PP pride would never have it!
Please don't mislead!

Have I said that? Obviously not... who is misleading?

Are you really from the US toddy?

Fernando

Fernando, that's an interesting question. toddy has a militancy that's far more characteristic of the British, and not Americans. Then again, I think I remember the last time he posted a thread about Spain joining NAFTA ... he claimed to have heard it from a contact inside the White House. So, who knows? Maybe he is American ... whatever his nationality, he sure has an ax to grind with Spain.

CaliBasco, no problem, but it might take a while as they have to lay claim to Ellis Island, Key West, and Avalon first. We'll see the Al-Auiy flag flying on Ventura Blvd. yet!

JJP, I really don't know where toddy is from, but he doesn't seem american for what he posts...

I remember that thread when he said that Spain would join NAFTA in two months or so. And still I have not seen any moves in that direction. Your contacts have failed toddy?

We will see.

Fernando

Oye Asterault,
I have bad news for your intelligence agency, it is rumored in Miami that El Cabron, Fidel Castro has already laid a Santeria spell on Key West. He claims it as his, and is planning to liberate it soon. And everyone knows that once Fidel moves in nobody moves him out!

Asterault - You have a wonderful abilty to cut to the chase and call it like you see it in a way that readers can't help but laugh - and laugh a lot! Thanks for keeping some much needed levity in the thread!
Am really glad I'm not the only one wondering where toddy hails from - and in what is the basis of his logic

Asterault, I just saw on the news this morning that the Moroccan navy had crossed the Salton Sea and were making their way down the Santa Ana River towards the Pacific. I'm deeply concerned!

BTW Fernando: I get menaced by my cholo neighbors every day...I was wondering if Moroccans in Spain drive around in lifted Monte Carlo's bumpin' the latest banda music and displaying their true feelings with "Jihad Siempre", "Brown Pride" and Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes urinating on "la migra" (INS...the gov't immigration enforcers)? I consider that last bit anti-American but I don't run across the border and claim Nogales for the US...besides, it's a dump and nobody here wants it anyway...kind of like Perejil.

My point is, if a dozen soldiers from Morocco want to camp out on a "football field-sized rock" let them...when you need it, ask them to leave. If they don't leave, then call in the INS, call them illegal immigrants, throw them in jail, deport them, and wait for them to come back next week. At least you'll be creating jobs in the SINS (Spanish Immigration and Naturalization Service)...it's a simple six-step process that has worked for the US Government for years now.

CaliBasco [Whose only "border patrol" involves his automobile and a Taco Bell drive thru]

¡Españoles! ¡Vengeance is ours!

http://www.clarin.com/ultimo_momento/notas/2002/07/23/m-419558.htm

I love it! A perfect postmodern revenge!

Again Fernando Quioxte, I NEVER said Spain would be joining NAFTA in 2 months. The only ax I have to grind is for anybody who is anti-American. Especially for those people who are hypocrits!

"¡Españoles! ¡Vengeance is ours!"
I think I read somwheare the same quote from Franco. What irony!

Toddy, I think the problem here is that you don't know what you are talking about...

On the NAFTA matter: these kind of agreements have first to be publicly dicussed, and I have heard nothing of it yet. Spain would never leave EU in an easy way, the social and political turmoil would be impressive.

As for anti-americanism: Do not confuse with anti-toddyism please... that's kind of egocentric.

As for Franco: It seems that you have some kind of admiration for him since you repeat once and again his name (considering the fact that he died 27 years ago, in which the spanish society has evolved much more than any other european one). Did you have someone on your family killed by him? imprisoned by him? prosecuted by him? I have. Shut your mouth and try to be more sensitive.

Fernando

"On the NAFTA matter: these kind of agreements have first to be publicly dicussed"

Sorry, but in the real world, political deals are made behind closed doors and then brought to the public.

Fernando, I have pointed out many things you have written that are wrong. Is it that hard to admit that you are wrong without trying to ridicule me? Let go of some of that Spanish pride and start speaking the truth.

toddy - you ask for people to - perhaps it is time that you listen to what a number of intelligent, rational, knowledgable, and senstitive people have been saying to you innumerable times - stop the nastiness and pendantic statements!. In case you haven't noticed - the members of this board have respect for each other and the individuals' opinion - perhaps you, too, as a board member could start developing this tactic.

Topic of Discussion: Morocco invades the Perejil's Island

Ok toddy, let's bury the hatchet. I've tried to explain and argue in every topic discused, sometimes ironicly, sometimes not.

In the Morocco conflict I think that I have pointed enough arguments to refute your statements, as well as in the NAFTA matter (while desirable, it is not probable that it may occur).

I want to stop the irony and sarcasm. I'm not going to blame you of it (following your advise of keeping away my Quixote spanish pride, a compliment for me...). I just want to say that I feel like if you wanted me to blame USA for all the problems that asolate the world, which I have never done, nor I'm going to do. If you still don't have it clear: I like the USA, with its good and bad things, and I feel that overall its role on international matters is good.

Let's continue to discuss whatever you, or any other member of this incredible message board wants, in a civilized matter (as almost always we have done).

Fernando

MadridMan: I just got this e-mail addressed from perejilforum@madridman.com. It reads:

:p

More than true CaliBasco... we have not been discusing nothing about Perejil since lots of posts above

When I started this thread (just to inform about the conflict from my point of view) I didn't know it was going to be that "hot"...

It is probably time to close it... let's see if I can as the creator of it.

Fernando

I can't...

It's a funny thing about threads - the more you pull on them, the more the material unravels. Eventually a button, or a sleeve falls off.. We've already pulled enough loose ends on this one to make that piece of rock disappear like Atlantis, into the sea.

Anyway, it don't look like parsley to me. It looks like something seagulls use for bombing runs.

'Nuff said!

Wolf (Visualizing seagulls "strafing" the Moroccan police who were on the island - )

Well.... I wouldn't do it for just anybody but those with 1000+ postings get certain priveleges. hehehe..

Yeah... this thread has totally unravelled. Let's start a new topic on ETA, shall we?? (NOT!)