Another hot topic-gays in spain

Hello,

I just wanted to talk about being gay in Spain. I have heard that it is difficult and as a gay male myself, I guess that would be my biggest fear about living there.

I do not define myself by being gay...actually, it is a really small part of my life...really small part and some people wouldn't know it. I had some fun in Chueca and L'Eixample in Barcelona but what I was told is that although the gay life is thriving in Madrid and Barcelona, being gay really isn't an option. It is more like a person has a "roommate" not a boyfriend...or something to that effect...

The people I was studying with were cool with me....

Any observations from both gays and non-gays are welcome! Gays and non-gays? Let me rephrase that...i would love to hear all observations about people's perspectives on gays in Spain. Even if you hate gays, feel free to respond!

Thanks.

Bri
Are gays welcomed at a Madridman party?

Don't be silly, Brien. EVERYONE is welcome!

While I'm not gay, I understand that Spain, for the most part, is a gay-friendly country. I hate using this term "gay-friendly", but I guess it makes a point -- maybe "gay-tolerant" is better?? Not sure. Anyway, I think most Spaniards, at least those under 40 years old, probably have at least one gay friend. Also, I don't have any gay friends in Spain so I can't say with any authority how "out" they are there.

I know we've had other travelers going to Spain who asked about "Gay-Life" there, but since they weren't residents I don't think we have any past postings which could help you. Hopefully you'll get some other responses, maybe from a few of the Spaniards regsitered here.

Saludos, MadridMan

I have the idea that almost everybody is gay tolerant, specially women, but maybe from the gay side could be seen different, because some language or actitudes could be not politically correct. Specially language can be a little bit gay-hurting sometimes, although without intention. I don't know of anybody of my environment being gay and I think it's something that people prefer to hide in places that you share with people not so close to you like the job or the University, ...

It is funny that you mention this. I have been surveying old threads about racism in Spain, and found them very unfair, since I don`t think racism is a too worrying matter in Spain (not yet). Homophobia and sexism, on the other hand, are quite strong.
You will find still, from time to time, homophobic jokes in the media. You won`t see any homosexual couple showing their affection in public. I am 26, and have never found anyone in my life who openly defined himself as a homosexual. Most of the times, people bear a confused combination of "yeah, I respect gays, but don`t let them get too close to me".
As I am heterosexual, maybe my vision is not accurate, but through the web I have attained first-hand information about how hard it is living as a gay person here. First of all, you can only hear that word "gay" in politically correct media. The most common way to call homosexuals is still "[censored]".
No one will beat on you, or insult you (well, maybe, but you can find that kind of people all over the world). It is something more subtle. The fact is, homosexuals tend to lock themselves into the guetto. I think they feel threatened.

c.c.--thank you for posting this response. i think it's important to see things you are not used to seeing, so your post has really opened my eyes about this topic. i spent most of my time in madrid in chueca and during the gay pride week no less, so i have no idea what "normal" is in madrid. it struck me that everyone was having a good time and being very open, but i now know that i was probably taking this as normal behavior and not what is actually customary social behavior. can i just add though that the gay/bisexual/transgender community that i had contact with while in chueca were the sweetest, most open and sincere people i met while there and very open about their sexuality. but then of course, i was at gay-owned and operated businesses where people probably felt safer to be this way.

What an excellent post, Brian. Thanks for the pride and courage to put this thread out there. As you can see, and I'm still quite a junion member of this site, MM has once again pointed out that EVERYONE is welcome in this message-board.

I would really hope for all of us in our community (here at MadridMan's) that many more Spaniard participants would continue this thread and offer their CANDID and honest thoughts on this important topic.

To me, Spain is an amazingly TEXTURED country and culture with regards to this thread's theme of "GAYS."

Look at some of the most widely popular Spanish movie-culture...Drag queens continue to pop up, and the passion of the Spanish would naively cause many other nationals to wonder just how accepting the Spanish are of Gays.

Most of my Spanish friends consider Spain to be a "conservative" nation. On the other hand, one made a most interesting point...

"...many in Spain (over a certain age) experienced first hand what (Franco) oppression can do. I think because of this, even if a Spaniard doesn't personally respect gays, they probably have a better ability to tolerate and TRY to understand/accept (that there are many different ways people need/are/have to most comfortably live thier lives - are examples of true and sincere humans)..."

I would hope this thread flourishes...responses (both possitive AND negative) from Spaniards in this community would certainly give a three dimensional picture of Spanish culture.

After all, if the culture is truly conservative and traditional (as it most definitely is!), how do gay themes keep showing up in widly popular Spanish movies...

Right back at 'ya Sheba...by the way, miss ya sweetie! My own month-long stay in Spain last summer (during Orgullo, mind you) was tainted pre-visit by fear. I found it to be entirely without reason. Unless you are completely "out there" (and I mean this in the context of a complete flamer who is only into the club circuit and being all "pass the queso, oh by the way, I'M GAY!!!", you should have no problems in the major parts of Spain, much as is the case in any metropolitan area. My friends whom I met while in Madrid and Granada all said that though many in Spain are conservative and Catholic (not to start a religion discussion), that many are "Catholic by birth" (direct translated quote). Meaning that religion, though an important part of life, is not the dominant thought-bubble in most urban people's lives. They go to church for baptism, etc., and that's about it.
Now, as for being out, my impression was that outside of Chueca, it just wasn't an issue. While I was there, one of the politicized issues was domestic partnerships (part of EU citizenship perhaps). I didn't get the impression that this was simply a matter of coincidental timing with the Pride festival.
My friends, some gay, some straight, some in-between (if we have to categorize ), was that those people who oppose it would keep it to themselves or, at worst, keep it at the chismes level.
And who hasn't dealt with that, gay or straight, or (insert adjective here)?
I felt completely safe the entire time I was there, and though I am not what I would consider a flamer (though I suppose entirely open to interpretation), I didn't feel it was an issue even when the topic came up.
My teachers at the school I was simply wished me happiness, in my pursuit of happiness, again, a (weak) translation.
Outside of urban areas, I can't speak. But in Madrid, it seemed that one's sexuality was, at worst, a non-issue.
When it came up, again, a non-issue.
To comment on some earlier posts, the chismes while I was there was surrounding a certain choreographer (openly gay) and a very well-known male singer. Nothing at all different from here in the states.
Go, have fun, be safe, use a condom, and most of all, the same common sense you would use in ANY major city.
(and check out the club WHY NOT?, the best Spanish-music whatever-goes club in Chueca).

I'm VERY proud that we can discuss this topic in a mature, honest manner. I'd also like to caution the readers of this thread about the opinions of gays from non-Spaniards talking about "Being Gay in Spain".

The standards by which we, the world community, judge homosexuality and the perception of homosexuals in Spain probably is quite different from those who are Spaniards and actually living IN Spain. We should be respectful of "the law of the land" as well... "when in Rome"... and all these other sayings which might be fitting here. Maybe it's "RIGHT" and maybe it's "WRONG", but it's the way it is. Hmmm.. I'm tempted to delete my entire post now.

Sure, it's my right to voice my opinion about how I think things should be and how I think people should be treated in Spain or other regions of the world. But who am I to walk into a Spaniard's home and tell the "housewife" of the family to "Stand up and demand equality in your household! Demand your husband carry 50% of the workload!"? Is it really my business? Is it really my place to tell people HOW to live their lives?

Spain has to make the changes appropriate for them, for their culture, and not be forced or coerced or shamed into doing what the world community demand they do. It's the same in any part of the world. And, unfortunately (in MY opinion), the "MORALS" of the USA, in particular, should not be seen as the morals of the "civilized world" JUST BECAUSE (if true) we have the most power, the most money, the most influence, the most "intelligence" (CIA/FBI-speaking), or will withold monies from any country who defies US(A). WHEW I'd better send/save this before I change my mind and delete it all.

Saludos, MadridMan

(NOTE: The opinions stated by MadridMan are his and his alone, whether right or wrong, and not necessarily those of the "moral/ethical majority" -- "can't we all just get along?")

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

MadridMan,

Well said. I for one am glad that you didn't delete it. We owe each other respect, as members of the MadridMan family.

Wolf (Who has learned that the only intolerance there should be is against views that indicate intolerance. I hope that makes sense.)

Mmm, I don't think one has to tread to carefully when it comes to voicing an opinion on "the law of the land". If you don't like something you should say so. Spain is a pluralistic society made up of many cultures and subcultures. And outside opinions are also welcome. I'm not Spanish myself, although I've been here almost 12 years, but when I don't agree with certain aspects of my adopted home - such as sexism or homophobia, I'll say so. I might offend the conservative right, but I do that wherever I go, Spain or Ireland. And besides a great many Spanish people would support my critique of certain aspects of Spanish culture. There are after all many active women's and gay/lesbian organizations throughout the country.
What I'm saying is that in a forum such as this, I don't think anyone should watch what they have to say.
Back to the topic (by the way, hi Sheba and Druship), Spain is, by and large, quite a tolerant country, and well on the way to recognising equal rights for the homosexual community. It will take some time, but it's firmly on the political agenda, and even the ruling party, not known for its enthusiasm for socially liberal legislation would never say openly that it is against gay rights per se. The social climate has left them no other option but to drag their feet and sit on the fence on the issue.
Outside the realm of politics, most people are rather tolerant. Spanish people are not sanctimonious by nature, and despite what they feel, will not openly criticise others. The worst reaction you're likely to encounter as an openly-gay person is mild amusement and often tiresome curiosity, or expressions of the type, "Such a nice young gentleman, it's a shame really...". I say all this by the way from personal experience.

MadridMan,

I am certainly glad you expressed your views. I, also, agree with your standpoint. No one should dictate values on another culture. However, Spain has been showing the world it can progress quickly into the 21st century. I also understand Spain can be a highly homophobic.

Traveling with my boyfriend, we stayed with parents of our friends back in California. In Catabria, the Basque Country, Madrid and Andalucia we had nothing but a warm welcome. Many were also impressed we flew amongst the terrorism. Spaniards are - on the whole – warm and accepting people.

MadridMan, thanks for keeping this thread in the discussion. More posts in this thread would be excellent.

As a gay, African-American male, I had no problems being gay in Spain. Many couples in Chueca showed their affection in public by holding hands and kissing. Madrid is quite tolerant.

Anyone who is gay should have no problem in Madrid. I am going back this summer and am looking forward to having a great time in Chueca (Bar Liquid, Ricks) and La Sastrería.

Looking forwrad to moving back in January for good.

I am not your typical gay person. I don't believe in gay pride, I don't like drag shows and I can't stand being around too many gays for a long period of time. This may sound like a contradiction, but hey, that's just me.

Enjoy Madrid and have a great time.

Shawn
pr4552@yahoo.com

Just thought I'd resurrect this thread ... another "gay" thread went down in a flaming, smoldering fireball of a mess today ... and MadridMan justifiably capped the discussion and closed the topic.

In my humble opinion, this topic deserves to be kept in the active section of MadridMan's SpainMessageBoard. España has earned a honorable reputation as a tolerant environment for gay men and women. This may not be entirely accurate (based on every individual Spaniard's personal sentiment), but it's an accolade worth mentioning.

For those interested, the following website has some good information and statistics:
ILGA

"... predicting that Spain will afford equal rights to gays before the United States. Most nations in the EU already extend immigration benefits to same-sex relationships. Many Americans ... look to Europe and the UK with a mixture of envy and inspiration"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

is so true. And I think this applies to all facets of life, not just the gay rights issues. Europe, in general, is far more open-minded and tolerant socially than the U.S. despite enclaves of strong liberalism in this country."

What kind of intellectual garbage is this? Why do so many people think they need to put my beautiful country the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA down to make Spain sound better. I can't tell you how many gay SPANISH friends I have who are trying to start their life here..... why, because they say "I feel a lot more free to live as an open gay here in the good ol USA." If fact, many have American boyfriends. My closest gay Spanish friend just had a "green card party" to celebrate and just bought a house. There next step is to adopt. Viva el Rainbow!

Toddy, you are apparently very defensive. That you needed to pull a quote from "Puna" and myself - from another thread - and accuse us of "intellectual garbage," tells me a lot about your motives on this message board.

The USA is a wonderful place, is my birthplace, my current residence, and I hold our nation in high regard. Nevertheless, to assume all criticism about the US is based on anti-American rhetoric is faulty.

From a legal and societal standpoint, Europe and the UK are far ahead of the US in terms of granting homosexuals equal rights. This is simply a fact.

"From a legal and societal standpoint, Europe and the UK are far ahead of the US in terms of granting homosexuals equal rights. This is simply a fact."
In Spain, can homosexuals adopt children?

"And I think this applies to ALL facets of life, not just the gay rights issues. Europe, in general, is far more open-minded and tolerant socially than the U.S. despite enclaves of strong liberalism in this country."

How can you intellectually quantify such a statement. Not by ANY fact.

You are missing the thesis of my response, toddy. Indeed, the US offers certain legal protections, but they are patchy and only the result of state legislation (not Federal) The US is still far from providing full-equality to gay men and women.

Besides, this was not the gist of my retort to you. You should stop assuming all criticism of the US is based on anti-American rhetoric. And as you've managed to flame many of the threads you've arrived in, I have no interest in pursuing a discussion with you.

Ask the real author - it wasn't me. toddy, you appear to be picking a fight.

NO FIGHTS!!! COOL IT!!!
Do I HAVE to close yet another thread???? PEOPLE COME TO OUR MESSAGE BOARD TO FEEL GOOD, TO REMEMBER SPAIN WARMLY, TO SHARE MEMORIES AND EXPERIENCES WITH OUR FELLOW SPAINIACS!! (yes, ALL CAPS=shouting)

Allow me to make this a blanket statement so as not to single out any person(s) here in a public forum.
There's a BAN USER feature on this message board. I've only had to use it two times so far in 2 years (not bad, really). One was some nut who went on about swinging ham legs and stupic stuff like that. Another was someone who couldn't get a clue that our message board wasn't to be used for advertising/posting "Get Rich Quick" schemes.

Let's keep this nice, people. Talk about ETA, homosexuals, prostitution and drug use (if you must) in a respectful, open-minded way. I WILL NOT ALLOW OUR MESSAGE BOARD TO BECOME ONE OF THOSE FLAME-HOLE-FORUMS YOU SEE AROUND THE INTERNET. I WILL NOT ALLOW ANYONE OR ANY GROUP TO CAUSE OTHERS TO THINK TWICE BEFORE COMING TO OUR MESSAGE BOARD BECAUSE IT MAY BE 'STRESSFUL'.

Our message board is intened to be a positive, warm, respectful place where mature adults (and mature children) can share, make friends, get together, and ENJOY themselves for heaven's sake!

Oh-SO-VERY-Sincerely, MadridMan

I'm sorry:(

I resent that you automatically group ETA in with homosexuals and prostitutes. That has really stressed me out, MadridMan.

Just kidding...please close this thread...for the love of Pete.

BTW: Thanks for shouting...sometimes we "kids" need "dad" to come in and "crack skulls".

Ahh, CaliBasco, you're a brave soul to bring this thread back into the fray.

Maybe it should be closed ... if it's only going to be used to ignite flameouts. I think this touchy subject can be discussed in a civilized manner, though.

After all, it may be helpful for certain travelers to Spain...