Asian in Spain

Hello everyone~ I am soon to venture to Spain for the first time. Upon hearing of my plans, one of my friends was quick to inform me that he'd heard that there is a prejudice against Asians amongst Spaniards. I am an Asian-American woman. I was born and raised in the states, but often pass for a variety of nationalities. Just wondering if this racial issue is genuinely something I need to take into consideration as I travel around what I understand to be a beautiful world over there. Would love to hear your thoughts/experiences. Thanks*

Hi Johanna. I, too, am an Asian American and I currently live in Spain (now in the Canaries, but have lived in Asturias, Barcelona and Salamanca as well). Overall, I haven't really had any negative experiences due to race. The worst that has happened to me (which is more annoying than anything else) is that men in the street would call out "chinita, chinita" (little Chinese girl) as I passed. Initially, it was kind of shocking (in part because I'm not Chinese American), but after awhile I got rather desensitized to it and kind of look at it as a similar situation that I imagine blondes here face, hearing "rubia, rubia" all the time. I would say, that in the smaller towns (I lived in a TINY town in Asturias), the issue stood out much more. But, this was due to being 1) an outsider, 2)American and 3) Asian. Apart from the "chinita" episodes, the only other thing may be that people openly stare (but then again, I don't think this is unique to a question of ethnicity here. People tend to openly stare more in Spain than in America for WHATEVER reason, I would say more out of curiosity than rudeness. In my experience, people have been more interested in the fact that I'm American than anything else (though, admittedly, people are often surprised). And luckily, I've not had any bad experiences due to my ethnicity. I think you'll find that people in Spain are generally very accepting and interested in people from different cultures. Hope this helps!

Never heard of such kind of problems here. I agree with the post above. I also think you will be looked at many times because it is not very frequent to see asians here, but there is no assumptions that asians are better/worse in any sense (not even the one I have seen in TV, that N.Americans use to believe blondes are naive and asians very clever).

johanna--

i had a similar question to yours before i left for spain. i'm black, so i consider myself very aware of these things and also my frequent traveling bud in spain is korean-american. so i will tell you what i (we) noticed.

the majority of asian people that i saw in spain were in a similiar situation as in the u.s. in the pre-80s. they are kinda floating on the outskirts of the main culture, working in convenience shops, running restaurants, etc.

like black women, there were quite a few asian prostitutes that i noticed. the women tend to be sexually exoticized just as equally as they often are in the u.s.

i also saw a lot of asians illegally selling items on the streets (just like many north africans)late at nite and oftentimes being harassed by drunk people who are out in droves at that time of night.

and i saw a bemused expression on many spanish people's faces when asian tourists would take pictures (much the same expression as many american's here and now).

my general overall feel (and that of my friend's) is that the asian population in madrid is not necessarily embraced, but they are more tolerated than blacks and pretty much keep to their own communities.

in regards to both races in spain, my general feeling is that it's not so much racism that the spanish project as colonialism.

Hi all,

Firstly Johana, Thanks for starting this thread.

I will be making my first solo trip to Spain soon and being an asian (I am a Malaysian chinese), I was was abit apprehensive about travelling alone in Europe as I have heard some horrible horrid travel tales from solo women travellers. I have also been told that there are not many Asian there so that explain the curiosity among them.

However, I thought I should share this episode with you guys. A girlfriend of mine (also Asian) was doing a solo in Spain a few weeks ago. She really enjoyed the trip but told me to be careful becos when she was there, she had some people following her ! It was slightly scary for her but she got hold of her composure and started to speak to them. Apparently they were just so curious of her - asian gals doing a solo in spain is a rarity.. thats what they told her. Anyhow, she had such a great time that she is planning another trip there soon !!

There , my 2 cents !

jennifer

Ignacio,

Please! Get off the movie kick! It really is getting old, and boring. Read Sheba's post, and you will see what really exists in Spain. When she talks, it's first hand information, not something out of a "B" movie that you watched.

Not all the old Fascist attitudes have died, or been killed off in Spain yet, and there is still an attitude that "outsiders" are not as good as Spaniards, amongst a lot of people. That's why it's rare to find anyone who isn't a Spaniard having a key position within a Spanish company, in Spain.

Also, before talking about the "tokenism" you've gotten from movies, in the U.S., explain to me how Spaniards are allowed to hire asian and Portuguese cooks, maids, etc... and treat them like the garbage they haul out every day. Spaniards treat their cattle better than that. It's always better to clean up your own problems before you attack someone else for theirs.

The simple fact is, anyone who is large, and especially not Spanish, can be treated like dirt in stores. But it's even more pronounced for anyone who isn't from European extraction. I've even seen clerks stand off to the side, and not help people who were shopping, simply because of the color of their skin. At least in the U.S. we are trying to do something about that, and even though it's too damned slow in coming, it is at least beginning to happen.

Wolf (Who hates it when people are elitists!)

Hint, spaniards stare a lot, it's not supposed to mean anything.

It's not because of you in particular, is a general attitude towards the environment, staring is so commnon that there is no verb in spanish to distinguish staring from looking. So relax, and start stare to check on everybody's attitude, clothing....

So what does this mean if you're a chubby asian female? (Referring back to another post concerning rudeness in stores.)

Pookita (who is fortunately not traveling alone, on top of it all)

Pookita and Sheba, everybody stares....It doesn't matter what you look like as far as I am concerned. I am an Italian American. Spaniards stared at me because I spoke English. Even "The Chairman" asked me if I was Italian. I didn't take it as insulting at all. Just stare back. Wolfgang, couldn't agree with you more about the "b" movies and Ignacio. The only English TV station we got in our NH hotel besides British CNN was the porn channel. And although, my husband, really hated it Ignacio, we don't all start taking our clothes off when the "maid " comes to our room. So, please quit generalizing....

Read the long " staring " thread in this forum from last September.

All this information is so good to know before going! If I hadn't read this, I would have gone, been totally off guard, and formulated inaccurate opinions. Thanks everyone for sharing!

MM- thanks for the thread..... (I won't mention how I find it most interesting that even a year ago you were flashing your nakend torso? ) Is there something you would like to confess?

Pookita

I can not believe what I am reading.

First, I did not critisize the USA, I only said that, through TV films (and I hate B series and am not interested in pornography), I learnt some attitudes that had never crossed my mind before, like 'bimbo'. Ihad to be explained that blonde girls and polish are fools - which I don't agree, of course.

I disagree with your post. I will tell you something later on for now I am a bit busy.

As for what Sheba said, I think she has seen things that really happen, like those asians selling flowers at night, and things I haven't seen , not even once, in long years of going out at night, like drunks harassing them.

I found Ignacio's last post interesting! A couple of years ago my class was discussing racism and assorted other prejudices and I brought up the topic of name calling...those endearing names we have to disparage members of an ethnic/racial/religious/(and sometimes State...is there an adjective for that?) other than ours. Since I am Polish by heritage, I felt it was ok to mention the word Polack. One of my students got a shocked look on her face (you know the one where a hand covers an opened mouth!) and said "Is that REALLY what Polack means? My father uses it all the time and told me it just meant a really stupid person!"

I have a hunch that most everyone who lives in the US has been the victim of some sort of prejudice...some, obviously, more than others. We're braced for a lot of it and while it never feels good, we have built in armadillo system that we use when we are in a particularly abusive environment. I think we get sucker punched when we are on vacation, though, because we somehow think hatefulness goes on vacation too. I don't think there is a place on earth that is completely free of insensitivity.

Wolf:

I am far from being a chauvinist of Spain - specially if my ambiguous feelings about my belonging to the country are to be considered. I tend to think of myself as a world citizen.

That is why I think I can speak from a certain objective point of view.

Of course, unfortunately in no country the benefits of culture have reached all the existing "lower" classes, but if we refer to the average medium class person, I have to say that this is one of the less racist countries you can find. I have seen the South Americans, who are much more racist among them than we are, I have been to the States (¡Hey, I didn't say anything by now!), to the UK, to Cuba, ..., I think all of these countries are more racist than we are. In the UK not much with black people, more with people from India or Pakistan.

You know, racism is a "philosophy"of life for some people, but for many others, its just a prejudice. I.e. my south american friends, no matter that they may have american native blood, despice and are afraid of the black. Why do they do so?

Because in their countries, there is such a racist social hierarchy that a black person will find a job always after any other, and always worse. This makes many of them feel tempted by crime (I would feel tempted too), and many do. This is why many people change his/her way when crossing with a black guy in the night in these countries. However, there are many, many black guys who are not criminals, and are harmed by prejudices.

But prejudices have a reason to exist. If you go to El Callao, in Lima (Perú), you had better be prepared for the worst, because of the "piranhas" - kids attaking you massively and taking yous wallet and valuables, and the black neighbourhoods, which are the liveliest and where you can have more fun, but also the more dangerous. ¿Harlem? ¿Bronx?

What we have to do is to use some assumptions as a way to face world, but be able to realize and change our mind, if they are wrong.

Racism is, like allergy, something you develope when you are close to the stimulation. In Spain, some are less friendly to gypsies than to black or asian people. Again, why?

The same, although in the South they have integrated and work for their living, in the North and Madrid, they sometimes go on with their nomad life (in vans), and many times are involved in drug traffic, robbery, and other issues of this kind. In my grandparents village, people have their doors open even when they are working in the fields, and the only time they have had steals is when gypsies pass by.

But when you scratch the surface, you see that although people say bad things about gypsies, when you talk to them for a while, you see that they respect the southern ones, they are complaining about the northern, because they suffer them.

I consider any black, asian, indian, gypsies, ..., as my equal in rights and dignity.

BTW, I am fat, but I don't think the sellers treate me wrong, although I felt insulted once when I was suggested to look in the "Tallas Grandes" in El Corte Inglés. But I should't, for I am actually fat. It doesn't matter that in some other stores I wouldn't have had to go to the "extra-fat" area to find clothing.


Wolf:
In fact, in Spain, many executives (includinng a friend of mine who is an argentinian finance controller) complain about the too high percentage of the key positions that are held by North Americans. Although many multinational companies hire spanish people for their spanish branches' top positions, some do not, and many national firms hire pretended finances' magicians, whose main credentials are having studied in Standford or Berkeley, ...

I have worked with them and did not see much difference from the spanish ones, but in management, there are fashions and inferiority complex.

Why should we hire people from some other country if they are no better than ours? If they are, we do. I think in the States they do the same. Am I wrong or 90%+ of the top positions in your country are held by N Americans?

I never heard that servants are treated like cattle in Spain, and I have South American friends who began doing that job. At the beggining some have had some harsh treatment because the people they were reaching were the worst in the market, the ones that had to look for workers every month, because as soon as the workers found another thing, they left. So, they were always in the hire market.

But soon afterwards they have all found places where they are well treated.

And I don't know any Portuguese working in that jobs (although there may be, or French too!). I knew of Philippinians, but long time ago.

I only had a racist experience here in a public shop or disco: A black friend (girl) and I were not allowed in a seven-level well known disco in Madrid, but I am not pretty sure if there was a private party (what they told us), wether it was because she was black, or because she was dressed in a very provocative way.

This is ONE experience, and I go out with any kind of people every week-end several days. I eat the weekdays at a cafeteria, and the table close to me is usually occupied by two black afican guys (very, very black), and nobody feels uncomfortable.


Nic:
I can not see why you agree with Wolf, since I didn't say anything that was not true, as you can see in Lamaestra post in the strange case you haven't seen it for yourself.

And I don't care to figure out which are yours and your husbands sexual costumes, nor if you like porn or not, which I dont't like, BTW.

Anyway, hotels use to have the channels that clients require more often.


Sheba:
I don't know how was USA in the 80's about racial status/culture, but I can guess. Asians are working in covenience shops, as spanish are, they run restaurants - I wish I could, I would surely earn much more.

I have not seen any asian prostitutes, although there might be any. I have seen black ones (african), but you can find any kind of them, spanish (few, because of competence), east european, and so on. It does not depend on race. They do it because they are short of money, that's all.

There are people selling ilegally food and other items, like chewing-gum, umbrellas, CD's, ..., in most case they are not selling anything illegal, it's only they don't have the permit for selling in the streets, for there is no permit for that. But the only problem they may have is that the local police tell them to leave. This doesn't use to happen, and when it does, they are back the next day.

Chinese girls many times sell flowers in discos, cafeterias, ..., at night, they are respected. The ones in Gran Via, I never saw them being harassed, but it might be, for this area has much of the worst Madrid in the Ballesta St. and others nearby. Drug-addicts, drunken people, people of the kind that use to go to the porno shows frequent in the area, ...

Yes, the smile when seeing these japanese making photos at everything is ubicuous, isn't it? All throughout the world. But it would be funny if the swedish did it too.

I live not far from Cuatro Caminos metro station, which is a Dominican area, and I can't see any problem with them in any sense. And most are black people. I think their status is not embraced nor tolerated, it is just a "live and let live" thing.

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

i have to address the staring. i know about the staring. i knew about the staring before i left. i talked with others about the staring several million times. i don't think i've suggested that this is unusual in anyway. please, no more posts to me on how i should take into account the staring thing.

but on the subject of staring, just to make it completely clear--i didn't mind it. honestly, it gave me a chance to get some really good jabs in at purse-lipped madrilenas on metros who literally had a snarl on their face as they looked at me.

i just stared back at them with equal disgust and as soon as they saw my expression, they pretended to ignore me. now if they could just use that energy to stare down the nasty old men (whom I'm sure are some of their husbands) who harass young girls...

the staring thing does get out of hand, even by spanish standards, especially when it comes to old men who stare at your breasts for over 15 minutes. that lecherous, vulture stare should not be tolerated. i can't believe how many of these men there are in spain and how many i had to tell to go...well, you know.

but to claim that spainards are less racist than other cultures is just really too much for me. they may be less racist only because they kicked out the majority of other people (or never let them in) and so therefore, never had "to deal with" exposure to another race. but they have always, like England, been colonialist, which in many ways, can be worse than racism. see their general treatment of north africans now.

while in spain, i lived across from the police station on calle fomento near plaza de espana, gran via, plaza del sol, etc. i think i got a really good sense of how the spanish see other cultures just from being in the middle of where all the cultures in spain converge and seeing how the police treated people with different skin or who were from other cultures or who were also women.

the police, notorious in any country for the cultural outlook on citizens, in this particular station made me sick. since my window was right across from their entryway (where people get finger-printed, questioned, and reports are printed), i saw things that would churn some people's stomachs. physical abuse, general ambivalence and intolerance, sexual impropieties against many "foreigners" and prostitutes.

and yes, the majority of prostitutes that i saw were african, not spanish. this includes little walks down montera in broad daylight.

and of course a few asian prostitutes and a few spanish, but mostly africans. how can it be said that this is not because of race, but because of economics when the race factor led to the economic situation that many of these women are in? same as the gypsy women. i think it has something to do with it, but that is simply my observation.

and in spain, like many countries, the asian and the black women are sexualized. just look at their ads. any ad that features a black or asian woman, she is wearing next to nothing and much less than her spanish counterparts.


now, on many occasions i have seen the gran via food sellers (they sell little trays of rice mixed with some kind of meat and fanta sodas in the wee hours of the morning) being harassed by drunks. this should not come as a surprise. it would happen in any city where you are selling something on the street at 3 and 4 in the morning. but it is particularly hard to watch when one considers that the "vendor's" nerves are already shot to hell from worrying about the police and they are often being mimicked in stereotypical ways when being harassed.

why are they out there anyway and why are they all asian? there's got to be a reason why spanish people aren't out there selling rice trays at that hour right?

i remarked to one of my friends that the spanish are sometimes worse when it comes to cultural outlook because they think they are white, when it is so obvious that they are mediterranean, moorish, and jewish all rolled into one. she said she didn't think that the spanish think they are white. i told her to look at their dolls. most of the little girls who carry around dolls have mostly blonde "white" dolls and most of the ads show the lightest of spanish people.

the only dolls i saw that were not like this were ones that were dressed in flamenco outfits (ie...hinting at gypsy, non-Spanish blood), and even some of these had blue eyes. blue eyes for chrissakes. i know this sounds strange, but to me, children's dolls are reflective of what a people think of themselves, they are 3-D cave drawings.

because they think of themselves as being white, they can disassociate and claim heirarchy. they did it in the new world. they do it in spain too, til this day, as i've witnessed personally many times.

i think the most surreal moment i ever had in spain, besides the 60-something year old man who stalked me and really frightened the hell out of me for four blocks saying something about black p-----, was the Ben Harper show.

during a song in which Ben sings the lyrics to Maya Angelou's "I Rise"--a song about black people rising out of the misery that white's have created for them in the U.S. despite all the obstacles--the entire crowd of Spanish people (besides myself and one other black man) sang along with arms raised. Only, after the show when I was feeling ecstatic from so much good energy and smiling at the people who were singing along, they all looked at me like I was some kind of crazy black woman.

on the good side, i have to say that my only saving grace in spain was walking up and talking to north africans and african-americans every chance i got. i met some really cool people this way who were geniunely happy to know me and a little surprised that i was alone in spain as they considered it to be an unfriendly place for any minority.

but johanna, i did get some great tips from them on how to survive amongst the bitterness and where to go to relax. so walk right up to any asian people you see, whether american or spaniard, and talk to them. i think you'll find the warm welcome among them that is lacking elsewhere.

oh...and go eat at siam. i can't remember the exact street that it was on, but it's near plaza de espana, and i swear to god, it has the best thai food i've ever had.

Sheba,

Today, is one of my few days to read MM’s site. I have been very busy learning my new job and doing research and proposal, etc. I really felt so bad that your Spain experience was not a pleasant one to cherish. I guess the experience of one may not be same for the other. As you know, my daughter lived in Spain for 6 months (Yes, she is black) and her experience as a whole was positive. Last Dec 00-Jan –01, I ( I am Asian from Philippines) visited her and had a wonderful time in Spain. I stayed 3 weeks. On my last day in Madrid at a Chinese restaurant, I felt discriminated when we were offered a table near the restroom. Of course, I objected and requested to be seated away from the rest room. I will not make excuses for those Spaniards who projected such a negative image of Spain. It is their lost for they missed out knowing you. It is good that you posted your Spain experience for others to read and learn from your experience.

About different experiences, well my daughter who is in New York City doing an internship has a roommate who is also black like her. They are staying at Asturia, which is a Greek neighborhood. Well one morning, her roommate was walking towards the train station, a stupid young man, stopped his car and shouted the “N” word at her. My daughter who also walks (earlier than her roommate) at the train station has not yet experienced someone calling her the “N” word. When my daughter, told us about her roommate’s experience, my husband and I became worried and we called the nearest police precinct and reported the incidents and told the officer that my daughter and her roommate are the only blacks in the building and we are concern with outright racism in the community. After reporting the incident, police car now cruises the area. My daughter and he roommate are very cautious which part of New York to venture.


Mclarke
I begin my formal Spanish tomorrow.

I suspect I'm going to take a good thumping on this, but here goes:

Remember that line in the movie "7 days, 6 nights " (think that is the name!?!?) when Harrison Ford points out to Anne Hesche that no woman goes to the store to buy clothing that no one will look at? I don't know what the women were wearing who were stared at by dirty old men, but keep in mind that those clingy, almost transparent little numbers girls wear to attract Mr. Right are also visible to all the Mr. Wrongs. Several of the girls in my group complained that men were staring at them or saying gross things, but those girls were wearing tops with barely contained cleavage! The one girl who wore modest T-shirts and jeans (but also had a knock-out body) had no problems with lewd remarks or stares. All heterosexual men are wired to respond to a nicely constructed female form. American men have been frightened into not looking because of all the sexual harassment suits, so they really try hard not to stare. (The ultimate example of this "fear" is my son's story from high school. It seems one of the girls came to school with nothing on on top at all...but she had painted her torso blue so that it looked as though she were wearing a super tight tank top. She made it through several classes before a female teacher caught her. The male teachers all said they thought it was just really tight but didn't want to look too closely for fear of being called a lech!!! My son, of course, had noticed!)Spanish males do not live in fear of sexual harassment law suits. If you flaunt it, they will look.

As for the sour old ladies and their viejo verde husbands....until the death of Franco Spain very well could have been a Moslem country. The dress and behavior codes for women were very strict. Those women (right about my age...perhaps a few years older) could only wear pants on Sundays and could NEVER in a billion years dress like girls dress today. Back when those sour old ladies were luscious young things you could get a fine for kissing in public! Women were locked into their homes at 9:30 every night and could not leave the house alone after that hour! I think when these old ladies look at young women today they are shocked, confused, and perhaps very jealous. When they had it to flaunt, they were told to hide it. And their husbands may well have never seen "it" either as proper Catholic girls of that time would have turned off the lights before undressing! So we have the toothless old men drooling over the deliciously ripe young girls displaying everything a good dose of estrogen can bring while sitting next to a dried up raisin of a woman who is seriously irked because she never had the chance to strut her stuff like that and who now has to deal with giving her old man a cold shower.

Compared to France and Italy, living in Spain was a lot like living in a monastery. It has not been all that long since things started to change...and the people of my generation are the ones you're seeing now! Those old attitudes die hard.

La Maestra (who is going to soak her dentures now.)

La Maestra,

Gawd! What a post! You're right about us American men. We're scared to death that we can get in trouble just by looking at a lady. Then there's the more difficult part, when you get older like me. That's when ladies beat you up and leave you laying in a heap on the sidewalk...

Wolf (Illinois runner-up for "lech of the year" in 1998 & 1999. Nominated again in 2001 by his wife... )

Lamaestra: I congratulate you on your bravery to say what you think no matter who you know you are speaking to. I agree to what you said.

Sheba: Your way to express yourself speaks for itself. I sustain what I said before.

Referring to the police, it is obvious you have seen a lot of films on Banana republics, but anybody who has been here may say that the may be helpful or not, efficient or not, but not torturers - not the one in Madrid and Central/South Spain, and not the Policia NAcional, who runs the precints you speak about.

Again, there is poor people everywhere, in Spain too, so prostitution is an economic, not racial matter. Besides, there are other ways to make your living. Between the L.Am. people you see here, most prefer working as maids, gardeners, or in construction. NOthing that will make you rich, only a way to begin. And they get residence VISAs, nationality, and improve their economy and jobs.

The asians and black girls are as sexualized exactly the same way the white ones are (when they are) - i.e. the "Amena" ad.

Why are those sellers asian? Because they saw a free market, and took it. Why many laundies in the USA are run by asians?

Spanish may not sell rice trays, but you can see spanish (and a Portuguese) shoe-polishers accross Gran Via, for example and in many humble jobs, like garbage men/women(90% of them are spanish), vendors (door to door), and others alike.

I don't think dolls show how people believe they are - I have seen black girls love tenderly they blue-eyed blonde dolls. BTW, my father, my grandfather (when alive), my brother have blue eyes. Mine are clear brown/green.

And, of course, we ARE white, caucasian. But we do not claim hierarchy for that.

That Ben Harper show didn't teach you sth. about how do we feel towards racism? Maybe people were staring at you because you were more expressive, in your ecstasy.

It is obvious that you have a bitter point of view, that I have seen in extremist feminists, this way one will always find enemies wether they exist or not, even in Heaven!



By the way, I did not know I am black. O, wait, I am jewish, moorish, mediterranean (is there a mediterranean race?).

Let me laugh at that nonsense: Ha, Ha, Ha.

This is like saying that N. America is a roll of black, asian, native american and so on. Of course there are such races, but not always mixed.

Anyway, I have been several times to the UK and the USA, and they couldn't say I was not one of them until I spoke, so that childish clumsy trial to insult (anyway it would be no insult to be jewish or whatever) did not hit the right person.

Bye

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Well Sheba, I think you are very courageous to say all those things, but I also think that you don't have enough information to judge like that.
No justification for the 'viejo verde' or for the guys disturbing the chinese.
But about the race discussion I think you are very far from being right.
Nowadays there is very big problem with inmigration (not only in Spain, I guess you see the same every day in the US, not long time ago, a group of Mexicans died in the dessert trying to get ilegally in the US).
Spain is the gate to Europe as it's not far away from Africa and a lot of people try to get in. It's a very difficult problem because these people is leaving in misery in their countries, but we shouldn't let to come more people than the ones who could find a job. So the government tries to limit the number of inmigrants.
Some international mafias get profit from the desire of these people to come to Europe and brings them without papers in 'pateras' with big risks for their lifes and them uses them here in Spain. Some of them die in the sea, some are catched by the police, who takes them back to their country, and finally some come in. The life for the ones who come in ilegally is not as easy as they would dream, as they don't have papers, no one can let them work legally, so they have to work ilegally or rob. Almost of them find a ilegal but almost honest way to earn their bread, many of them sell pirat CDs, or other things, of course someone is getting a good profit of them.
For the prostitution is more or less the same, there are nets of prostitution who brings the girls from East Europe or Africa, we have known from TV reports that the Africans ones, firm a contract in which they acquire a debt they have to pay in money or whith their life or their family's lifes, that's why they don't go to the police although there are facilities for any prostitute that denounces it. Some others come with cheats, and once here they don't have any other way out, and some are living in such a misery that they prefer to come here even knowing that they will be working as prostitutes.
Although we don't see anything in TV we know by some ONGs that police treatment for these people in the cities is not very polite, it isn't neither for lot of people(it's different when they are catched on the coast), I have seen also "strange" treatments from metro security guards, large queues in the administrations to get visas.. ... lots of injustices, but these has nothing to do with normal people treatment.
About the gypsies these is a different problem as it has more than five hundred years, gypsies have had a lot of problems in all the countries they have lived, because they were nomad people and they had a lot of conflicts with sedentary people, it has to be studied deeply and I'm extending this too much, but since some years the government is making big efforts to integrate them. Do you know that the parents of school kids get money for their kids going to the school? This is a positive discrimination for them, there are other families that need that money as much but they don't get it because they are not gypsies.
About other possible racism treatments in the past like the expulsion of jewish and moorish in 1492 and the conquist of America, we should have more information for talking. I can look for some if you want.

And all of a sudden, this post blew up. Where have I been?!!

I can usually ascertain the depth of feeling or the level of guilt of an individual by the length of the post [please see my embarassingly long ETA threads...]. Sheba, you feel deeply, as I've noticed on other threads. Thanks for giving us that honest, first-person perspective of what it's like to "stand out". I've been there, too. Hopefully we can discuss some of that over dinner in a few weeks???

Ignacio, I'm afraid you're feeling a little too guilty and defensive about your country. Relax. I'm probably one of the most patriotic US citizens around, but I don't feel the need to defend her every move, especially when I can blame it on someone else. Remember, we all LOVE Spain...that's why we're on this board. We're with you, hermano.

Power corrupts...and absoulute power corrupts absolutely; whether on a national or local level. Sincerely, George Orwell. That's why you have exploitation, state-sponsored genocide and other violent acts perpetrated against one ethnicity by another.

CaliBasco [who never saw "Six Days, Seven Nights" because it wasn't even in the theater that long]

ignacio--i was not attempting to insult you personally and i apologize if i did.

i don't think i'm being bitter. i don't think everything i saw is made up or misconstrued or looked at through a very small lens.

the entire time i was there, i did speak to spanish people about these things, namely my professors and the building manager where i lived and some people who had lived in spain previously, so i have had a chance to bounce these things off other people who did and did not agree with a lot of things.

i honestly don't think spaniards are anglo-saxon white from what i've studied of their history. i honestly don't believe most americans are anymore either, but that's another story.

i have read quite a bit about spanish colonialism, so my view is probably tainted when it comes to this. i will admit that. i have read the accounts of christopher columbus, bartolome de las casas, hernan cortes, bernal diaz del castillo and alvar nunez cabeza de vaca with enthusiasm as we weren't ever really taught these things as americans.

i enjoyed them, but more important, i learned a lot from them about the spanish people and how they perceived others from the beginning.

on a side note:

i also love the imagery behind dolls. i think they play a very important part in our society in that they teach our young children how to view themselves and others. a child's first real play acting is with dolls usually, so it is important what those dolls represent, as many archeologists and psychologists believe and so do i. when i was young, not that this is very important, there were really no black dolls to play with. my mother refused to buy a white doll with blond hair for obvious reasons. i never forgot the reasons why and became really fascinated with dolls, statues, and other cultural representations of the human body. these things are cultural representations, whether we like it or not.

and by the way, i am black, but there is no doubt that there is white in me. how can there not be when i live in such close proximity (and steeped in) to this culture? both physically and culturally, i have white in me and native american, so it is not so far-fetched your suggestion about most americans being of mixed race.

my point was that, even if you kick the moors and the jews out, you cannot get rid of the intermix of blood that already took place before they were kicked out and you cannot unculturize yourself from them either. this is where the harsh "j" and "h" comes from and where much of Spanish poetry was inspired by and why there are still so many Spanish people who are darker and ruddier in complexion. this is not to say that you can't have blue eyes and blonde hair (some jewish people do too, by the way), but just to say that if the moors once ruled most of spain for hundreds of years, then it is somewhat naive to believe that they didn't intermarry with the spanish. and if i'm to understand correctly from what i've read, the majority of moors were very dark, often black people.

re: the police. i don't think i implied that they were torturers on that level. how absurd that would be of me. i said: like the police in most cultures....and i just mentioned what i saw. seeing is not always believing, this is true. but i cannot deny the many nights sitting there and watching them do things that made my stomach churn. sorry, i lived right across from their station where my window was parallel to theirs. i heard and saw too many things to say that people were just treated with indifference. am i lying? who can tell what someone really believes, sees, or thinks over the net?

i hope that i haven't insulted you further by saying these things and i hope that i have said these things with a more palatable approach as i do not mean to offend, i just want to understand and to think and to offer my opinion. i tend to put it all out there and face the consequences and i tend to speak what i see as i'm a highly visual person and since my diary was stolen in spain, i've been using this board as a place to say everything i experienced, including the good (please see my note on chueca under the places), including the bad.

and yes, i am a feminist. i make no apologies for that. never have, never will.
i don't think i'm a bitter feminist, as you implied earlier in your post. i think i just had a really bitter experience in spain which included being called trash (ask some of the other dinner group members about this), being called Whoopi Goldberg, being called Picachoo (sp?), and generally all-around being treated like crap while in madrid and without provocation and from the minute i landed. i certainly didn't save for two years and spend five years worth of savings to arrive feeling bitter or leave feeling bitter for that matter. i wanted to enjoy spain and all that it had to offer. i came with a very open mind.

and please, be my guest about commenting on america. i am always open to hearing any criticism (good and bad) of this country, in fact i have plenty to add about the merits and demerits of this country as well if you wish to e-mail me and i'm particularly interested in hearing about what you have thought of america and americans in your journey(s) here.

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: sheba ]

Calibasco:

I am not nationalist (at least from Spain), it is only that I felt something unfair was being said, just like when I told (I think to Fernando) when he was criticizing some supposed N.Am. behaviours in another thread, basing them in his 30 days' experience, that I found every kind of people in the States, in three trips and 45 days (besides sharing flat with some in Madrid for many months), and I was only beggining to have a sight of what your culture is.

I thought that critics were a bit unfair, and I said so.

Also I got rather pissed off, not because we (so, I too) were said not to be white, but because I believe the intention was to hurt, saying we think we are better but we are not. I didn't think this was fair either.

I also like somebody saying Spain is not so wonderful, because I live here, and know it is not perfect, but I would prefer that the REAL defects were show, not the imaginary ones.

For example, I have not defended Spain in the thread about stores because I think it may really have happened such things. I have had very few of these experiences, and I am accustomed to our straight-forward ways, so I don't distinguish between "you are too big for this clothes" or "This clothes have a too small design. I recommend you others".

But I respect different ideas, as far as I don't think they are against the truth, and as far as I don't guess that this is intentional.

About colonialism another thread would be necessary to speak of the real History with its miseries and/or exploitations, and the History we or you learn at school and both side's lies.




[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Picachu is a Pokemon, a cartoon. My sister was called like that in Ireland by her friends because she is very small

Sheba,

You did not insult me since, as I told you I do not consider that belonging to those races was sth. to be ashamed of. Anyway I am very glad that you didn't mean any harm.

Well, let me tell you about spanish ascendancy. No, we are not anglo saxon, but what you have omitted, I suppose because you didn't know is the european part of the mixture and its settlement areas. Same as if you go to Colombia or Brazil you can find mixed races in some areas, and white in some others (no or very few mixtures, because of the very small percentage of other races).

The older inhabitants of Spain recorded, are the Iberians, from these I can not tell you much, and the Tartesos.

Many years B.C. the Celts came, all throughout the country , but much more densely in the Northern areas, specially in Galicia and Asturias (these regions still hold strong ties with other Celtic areas like Bretagne (France), Scotland and Ireland. There are cultural Festivals each year, they produce celtic music, cider, ...

There were isolated Greek settlements in the Mediterranean coast, and Phoenician (formerly greek), close to Barcelona and Valencia.

There were three germanic invasions prior (I believe) to the roman conquer: vandalos, suevos, and alanos.

There was the roman conquer, which, by the way did not reach all the areas in the country (like part of the Basque Country) because of the fierce fight of the natives and the lack of interest for Rome.

Right after came the gothic (a germanic group) - in this case "visigodos", that took the whole country.

There are also the French people who settled in the North accross the Santiago way (In Pamplona, there was a Suburb called the French Suburb- Nearly half of the city in the old times), but not only French, people came from all of Europe to "erase" their sins, and many settled.

Also, there was the "Villa Franca" system, that was created for the French/Franks (and other europeans who believed in the same Church) in lands taken from the moorish under promise to defend it in exchange of free lands and tax exemptions.

These have been the invasions/inmigrations that settled in the country that you forgot to mention, all these european races. There have been more, but they didn't settle down, so, no genetical inheritance is left.

The moorish never controlled the whole country. The northern zones, with the help of Charles the Great (French), and the remains of the Gothic army (Asturias) always resisted. Some of them (Aragón, Basque Country) paid tribute and contibuted to fight the French, but were not colonized.

By the way, moorish were Northern African people, so they look like people from Marocco, not like people from Nigeria.

The substract of the moorish reigns in Southern and Central Spain was pre-moorish population, called "mozarabes" (= ¿new arabians?), so, even in these areas, population was still massively white. They surrendered and cotinued living under the muslim rules, that allowed much more liberty then. They admitted Jews and Catholics, although they were pressed to change religion and many did.

Colonialism died centuries ago, by 1898, when we lost Cuba, Puerto Rico and Philippines, people was really fed up of paying administration and war expenses,and sending their sons to death for sth. they had no part or land in. No nostalgy of Imperial destiny in anybody but a few fascistas.

If you have read the accounts you speak of, then you can see that there is always another point of view in this and in any History, I have also read some of those.

As for dolls, when I was a kid I used to play with plastic soldiers, but I have never seen me like a soldier at all.

About the people in the USA's origins, surely you don't mean that ALL of them have different races' blood. Many would feel very surprised.

I can not tell you were our "j" comes from, but I tink we ave "H"s in bot languages.

When I lived at home (North), I travelled to Cuba and the USA. In both places I was once told there were darker spanish (trigueños, in L.Am.), but I said I didn't think so. When I came to Madrid I was surprised that a number of people looked a bit like Marocco's people. Although they were not many, I was very surprised, for it is very strange in the North.

As for the Police, I believe that you may have felt disgusted by sth. you saw, but I see you like the alternative culture, what makes me think the level for your disgust may be far below most people's (non alternative) ones.

You don't need, of course, to apologize to be a feminist, I am too, but I don'tlike when people makes a flag for a crusade on this or race and fights his/her own crusade. The same stuff as when somebody is not promoted it always comes out the "That's because I am a woman". In many cases this is true, but there will be others where it is not. But it is always said, by the affected and by the "feminist warriors", always ready and searching for males' excesses - wether they exist or not. Or any other "politically correct warrior".

By the way, if you have really been treated like trash, I am very sorry, and they are fools not to let you display your beautiful smile (I saw the photos).

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

PHEW !! Thats a history lesson. Thanks !

sheba, your mention of dolls struck a chord in me, because i am trying to be very conscious of the images my 4-year-old daughter relates to and plays with (yes, we have made it to age 4 with no barbies in the house--not because i have prohibited them, but because there are other good options). i noticed that most of the dolls in spain were, as you mentioned, lily white with blonde hair--unless they were in flamenco outfits.

my daughter is currently in LOVE with her two "groovy girl" dolls--one black and one white--and parents here in the US would probably love these little toys! they are all brightly dressed, trendy, and as varied in looks as the faces and hair in the real world around us. on top of that, they DON'T have waspish little waists like barbie and their facial features leave room for imagination, not dreams of eventual plastic surgery.

they are made by a company based here in Minneapolis, i think.

and they have funky furniture and outfits and pets--all soft and cute stuff.

we have a long way to go in our country, as in spain--but starting with the kids is a good place to begin.
tara

ignacio--you are absolutely right.

Victoria, I mentioned on another thread that I really liked your statement about imagining some blond girl hearing "rubia, rubia" all the time. I think most of us have had inappropriate things said to us, regardless of race or other physical features...and I don't know if it is just because we are women or because the foreign woman seems safer to hit on. Once again, I have a story (Sheba, you may find this interesting too!) ***WARNING-THIS MAY BE OFFENSIVE****
About 6 years ago the daughter of one of my colleagues went on a tour of Europe that included Spain and Italy. Her mom is about 6 feet tall and thin as a rail. The daughter is just as tall, but most definintely NOT a beanpole...and is very blonde. All through Spain she was pestered by the "guapa, guapa" stuff with men popping up right in her face to say something. Some followed her with the Spanish equivalent of "Hey baby, do those legs go all the way up?" (Wouldn't you like to say "No, actually only the first 3 feet are legs...then I have some PVC pipes connecting them to my torso.") She wore a skirt to visit a cathedral and had an old woman hit her with a stick, yelling awful things at her. The skirt wasn't really all that short, but she had like 4 feet of leg, so it looked like she was wearing something much shorter than it was! Anyway, she started crying and some of the other girls in the group finally wrapped sweaters and stuff around her so that the old lady would let her into the church. The girl got so upset about her treatment that she didn't even want to get off the bus to see what she had gone to see! The group leader reminded her that she would be leaving Spain and going to Italy and things would surely be different.

Well, it sure was different! As she was taking pictures of something, some old creep came up behind her and grabbed her breasts. She screamed and the others in the group surrounded her. The old jerk backed off, but continued to follow her. Evidently it got hard for him to contain his admiration for her and he decided to take matters into his own hands, so to speak. One of the women (no doubt British ;)) exclaimed something that sounded a lot like the food Anchovy Front gave us the recipe for (TGI Friday thread), the group got on the bus and tried to calm the girl down. The man continued to do his thing while making kissy motions at her. The police came, but didn't arrest the guy. The girl decided not to go to Europe again!

La maestra (who doesn't know what she'll do for entertainment when she stops teaching)

Wow, what a load of contributions ~ insights and things to mull over.
I stayed some months in Guatemala last year and had people yelling, "Chinita! Chinita!" at me everywhere I went, so I can relate to that story. Thank you all for your replies. Sounds as though the racial issues are similar to that in much of our world, and clearly it depends on each person's own individual experiences. What I have read here runs along the same lines of much of what I know of latin american culture. The bold cat calls and staring, but mostly just harmless curiousity (or horniness!!!). Anyway, thank you all for the insights!
I will be headed to Madrid in November, I'll let you know if I have any related stories to tell!