Being an American in Spain

Hi everyone,

I was just thinking about Spaniards impressions of Americans. No one even guessed that i was from the states and that was a plus. I never wore shorts and dressed nicely during my time in Madrid. i remember this one girl who said that she was tired of the American being the hero in the movies and the rest of the world being the bad guy. I guess i could kind of see that. Also, i remember a guy in the restaurant who i was speaking to in Spanish and he kept answering me in English. I have studied spanish for 10 years and i speak it well (at least i think so). Do you think that he thought my Spanish sucked or that he wanted to practice his English. I have to go with the latter. i would love to hear more about your experiences with the culture of Spain (I know that this is a broad topic)

Hola,

I have some comments on being an American in Madrid. I work in Advertising and I was transferred to Madrid for 2 years at the end of February. I do not speak Spanish (even though I grew up in Long Island NY and was living in Brooklyn before I came here) and have never spent any significant time abroad. After about 4 months, I can say these are my impressions:

What I like:
I love the weather. I lived in Cocoa Beach while going to Grad School and learned to hate Winter.
MOST of the people are great, My Land Lady does not speak any English and treats me like one of her own.
I love the atmosphere in Madrid (all the old buildings and streets and all the history).
Everything is SOOOO Cheap!
What I dislike:
The service is horrible almost wherever you go. I cannot tell you how many times I have walked out of restaurants or stores because no one wanted to help me.
Because I am not fluent in the 4 months that I have been here, I am considered and been called Lazy American many times.
Everyone raves about Spanish food, but I do not like it. I would give my right arm for fresh Pepperoni or Mozeralla or a huge Snapple Ice Tea.
I feel bad/bothered by the huge amount of Gypsies that are on the street begging.
Everyone assuming NYC and Brooklyn is the Crime/Homeless Capital of the world (seen more of it in Madrid).
No Dryers.

Taking into consideration above, overall, I like it here and will cherish the experience forever. The one thing I want to emphasize to everyone is that visiting is a whole world of difference than living in a place. I am learning that.

Best Regards and hope to see everyone at the Madrid Dinner Group on Saturday (I will be the one trying to order a Snapple with Dinner)

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: jmp110372 ]

Brien, i wouldn't take it personally that the man was speaking to you in English. He probably really wanted to practice.

That is my boyfriend's pet peeve though. He considers it really rude, and because of that (and knowing it really bothers some people) I am a lot more careful about that now. I used to be so excited to speak Spanish or French, it didn't occur to me that the other person might think I was implying their English sucked.

:p

Nicole- I usually let people know when their English sucks...right after they critique my Spanish.

Actually, I've never had more than encouragement from Spaniards, so I've never had to opine on a Spaniard's English. I also remember the greatest day of my Spanish-speaking life in 1989, when a Spaniard asked me what part of Cataluña I was from! There is an old actress from Cataluña with my same surname. This person assumed we were related, and that I must be Catalán...I was just flattered that my accent was so impercetible to this person!

I wish my company would transfer me to Madrid for two years...if you need a Snapple jmp- go to 7-Eleven on the way to the Palacio Real from Sol. They at least have Slurpees. :p

[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: CaliBasco ]

Doesn't VIPS now have Snapple??? I thought so, but I may be wrong.

While I was an American in Madrid for the year I lived there and after, I blended in quite well and no one really made any big deal out of the fact that I was American...which pleased me mostly. Except during the summer when I'd go into the center of town on one of my "I feel like being a tourist and not a resident" days. Then, it was miserable. Every time I'd speak Spanish in one of the shops, no matter how well I thought I spoke it, I was answered in English and eyes rolled if I dare made any kind of grammatical mistake.

Could have been a bad summer though, for tourism.

At any rate, I think if you live there, and you are a DECENT human being...it doesn't really matter WHERE in the world you are from, as long as you are a kind soul while you are there.

This goes to jmp, I work in an Italian restaurante here in the States. I will bring over some Pepperonni/Mozz for you when I leave (Aug. 20th) LOL.

VIPS needs to just go away...

Hi!

I'm a spaniard that lives in Madrid.

What I think of americans? It is hard to generalize. I like some of your ways to be, but I dislike others (some americans think that what they will find in the rest of the world is just like the States for example).

I've been in the States (Washington DC) so I've met some americans ;-)

The spaniards have (I believe) a good idea on how americans are. You must consider that we have seen a lot of movies (which, in some ways, are a good picture of how you are).

It is funny, when I was there a man asked me if I were from Orlando, so I guess my english is not very bad.

I'm sure that if a spaniard answer you in english is because he wants to practice english, no doubt! A lot of people study english here, so it would be frequent to find someone who speaks it.

My first experience in Spain was HORRIBLE. I thought Spain would be neatly packed little cottage villages tucked away next to some bulls and sheep eating some green grass. Boy, did I experience culture shock. No one I came across spoke English or if they did they were to embarrased to try. I remember looking for a nice big Denny's breakfast my first day. "What," I thought,"All I get is little slice of potatoes stuffed in a luke warm scrambled egg." I also expected everyone to be wearing "spanish clothes." All I saw was a mix of Calvin Klein, Lacoste, Ralph Lauren, Burberrys, and Green Coast. Some things though did seem just like America with parts of each city devoted to beggers,drug addicts, prostitutes, and poverty. Strangely enough, this helped me to understand and appreciate Spain. Like any first world country, they had first world problems. However, the problems were dispersed a little differently. Not better or worse just different. I then took my first sip of Spanish wine, calmed down, and began poco por poco enjoy the different unique flavor of this beautiful country. I have since married a BEAUTIFUL Spanish woman (how cliche), had a bonita bebe, and have gone on my second trip to Spain. This time, I knew a little more Spanish, ate more chorizo, jamon, morcilla, and drank a lot more Rioja. The second time I enjoyed it more (los suegros are great babysitters)I look forward to making my third trip maybe at Christmas time and hopefully celebrate los tres Reyes Magos with mi hija. I have to admit, Spain gets under your skin little by little and eventually it finds your heart. It did mine.

<<The spaniards have (I believe) a good idea on how americans are. You must consider that we have seen a lot of movies (which, in some ways, are a good picture of how you are).>>

HA! Fernando, you just made my day. I studied in Sevilla during '95 and unfortunately spent many hours disabusing my sevillana roommate of the stereotypes she had about americans through the courtesy of our movies. My personal favorite was the day I walked in our apartment and she was watching a bad 80's flick titled "White Dog." She proceeded to inform me that all US white Southerners are racist and raise their dogs to attack and kill blacks. I had this mental image of my tiny pekingnese trying to attack the neighbors. hee! Anyway, I hate to think what other horrible ideas Spaniards have in their heads about Americans as a result of our entertainment exports.

Fernando,

Movies that are made really don't reflect America, or people from the US or Canada very well. We don't go to movies to see how we live, we go to be entertained, and that's all a movie is... entertainment.

Don't confuse it with us as people, or how we live. It ain't true.

Wolf (Scratching behind his left ear to get rid of those pesky fleas. )

I just spent a week in Palencia where most everyday myself or part of our soccer team went to a small rest. where a young waiter had proudly told us the first day that he spoke a little English. We developed this huge mutual respect as we both tried out each other's language. He would manage in the course of each meal to use the 20 or 30 words he knew, often totally out of context, and we both ended up learning from each other, having lots of laughs, and feeling pretty proud of ourselves and each other.This is definately one of the treasures I brought home.

Of course americans are not as in the movies. What I sayed is that the movies reflex very well which you value (principles), how the places are, and how you society is organized
I've been living in the States for a month. I know there are some misunderstandings on how americans are, and we tend to see you as an homogeneus country (which is far from reality).

The States is a country that has catched my attention indeed. I consider that european countries are very different, but comparing any of us with you, you seem alien

Fernando,

I know - or at least hope that you don't seriously think we are all like the movies. It is ridiculuous to even think that movies are an accurate portrayal of
our value systems. Could you imagine what my perception of Spanish society would be if I based it on the people in Torrente 2? Hopefully the mere fact that this web site exists and that so many of us use it should tell you that there are plenty of americans that agree with the ideals and values that are essential to Spanish society.

The U.S. isn't at all what it is portrayed in the movies if you delve a little deeper - except, of course, when the world is threatened by invading aliens and we all jump into our F-14's and follow Will Smith into battle to save the world; but hey there are exceptions to every rule.

LCQ

LCQ,

And of course we all keep our F-14s behind closed doors in our garages. Wouldn't want anyone to know we have them.

Wolf (Who has a two car, two fighter jet garage - attached)

It always bothers me when I address someone in Spanish but they reply in English. I always figured it was because they wanted to make things easier for me, until my sister said, "You like to practice Spanish. Don't you think they just want to practice their English?" Silly me had never thought of it like that. Also, I think quality of service depends where you go. This time in Salamanca we had fabulous service from waiters and salesladies. Prompt, friendly, courteous... we were very impressed.

So you have an F-14 in your garage? I told you! Like in the movies!

Seriously: I really think that through the movies we can get a good picture of your society.

Let me explain it. Of course we don't think you have F-14's in your garage, but, for example, it is annoying to us how the figure of the president is. In aaaaaaaall the pictures where the figure of the president is present he is a hero, that implies that he is like a great father for you, the most respected institution of the USA.

Through the movies we could know that the weapons are quite common in the USA, and that it is rather normal to have one, specially if yoy don't live in a city.

In almost every movie there is a black actor. If it is an action movie the most probable outcome is that he dies in an heroic way, while the white actor survives. What tell me that (and what I've seen in the States)? There is some guilty sense about blacks, it seems you believe you own something to them because all they suffered in the past.

Not to mention that when a latino apears on the screen he is always a narco or the bad guy (fortunately that is changing). I saw in the States that latinos where not welcomed. Some americans told me that mexicans should go back to their country, and that americans should not pay their health treatments. I was also very surprised when someone told me that before meeting any spaniard he thought we were like mexicans (nothing bad attached to being mexican, but we are phisically different).

What I would say, however, is that movies don't really show the good things about the States. I was surprised on how hard-working the americans are (it doesn't surprise me you have a strong economy). Also, I previously thought that you were too conformistic (is that right? I mean that you normally don't protest), and you are not.

One of the worst things I take back from USA was my impressions about your policemen. Not only they were not helpful, they were very bad educated, they shout at us (I'm not talking about once, but three times we encounter one) althought we were tourists.

I tend to think that they are like that because they have to face very dangerous situations, whereas in Spain that doesn't happen (of course we have crime, but not having a significant amount of weapons imply that the majority of the crime is commited with no fire arms at all).

Ahhhhh, I remember how the breakfasts were. You could go to a Big Boy, or even a McDonalds and eat that great tortitas, waffles, fried potatoes, bacon, cheddar, and all those unhealthy but tasteful food I really enjoyed it.

The world's reality is the US President is the leader of the only Superpower left. I know this sounds pompous, but it is a reality nonetheless.
It is true, we have had a troubled past and present with ALL the worlds races in terms of race relations and in American assimilation. But, don't fret, because with all those N.Aricans, Ecuadorians, and Chinese immigrants in Spain, you too will have to deal with the same issues we have been dealing with for years in the US.
I already heard that there is a black Spanish group in Spain that is trying to stop the selling of conguitos.
Instead of being an American critic, why don't you do something smart like the Sweedish parliment did. They sent a study group to the US to see how to deal with so many different cultures and races and still have a vibrant (albeit not perfect) nation.
Maybe Spain and the US could learn from each other in different areas; each gaining from the other through a mutual friendship built within a positive framework of discourse. (of course this is from one of those very optimistic Americans) I am and therfore I believe!

Fernando,

You hardly know us, or how we are. You've accepted statements from a few people and turned them into a label for all of us. Not intentionally, but because you haven't been around us, and amongst us, long enough to truly understand us.

Our President, whether we voted for him or not, is our national leader, and we offer respect to him, as such. That's the way it should be. We are the "United" States, not a coalition of countries with their own agendas.

I've heard Spaniards say that the illegal Morrocans should go home. What you hear someone refer to in the U.S. is that the illegal Mexicans should go home. It's the same thing, not a conspiracy against them. In fact over the years they have been allowing many of them to gain U.S. citizenship.

The question of us owning guns is an interesting one. It is our constitutional right to own them. Yet, to someone outside the U.S. it sounds like everyone is running around on the street wearing a gun belt with a .357 magnum in a holster. I personally own six guns. I've had them for years. I hunted for years, and the shotguns and rifle were for that purpose. As for my two handguns, they are registered and legal, just like the majority of all the guns in the U.S. Our problem is with the illegal guns that are out on the street, and are doing what we can, legally, to get the laws changed to add severe penalties for anyone who uses a firearm in commission of a crime. In Spain, there are illegal guns as well. You made it sound like there weren't. We all know they exist, and know they are in the hands of people who wouldn't think twice about using them, and have done so already in some cases.

As for your statement about our movies, I think you're reading a hell of a lot more into things than exists.

Wolf

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Wolfgang81 ]

There are a lot of legal guns also in Spain. As Bush Senior can attest to. A favorite hunting partner of his is the King of Spain. Where do they hunt, in Spain of course.

Toddy, I've not criticized the USA, I don't understand why you put yourself in the defensive.

I've said that there are things I like, and things I like less. If I had to live outside Spain, I would probably choose the States.

And you are right, there is a lot of things Spains could learn from the States. Perhaps more than what you could learn from Spain. You are also right, USA is the main power of the world, military and economicly, noone deny it.

Hi Wolf.

Again what I said to Toddy. I admire your patriotism, but I don't understand why you think I have attacked the States with my posts.

"Fernando,
You hardly know us, or how we are."

Maybe. I have told you that I have just been a month in the USA, so the best I could do is to get some conclusions, which can be wrong, or can be right.

"Our President, whether we voted for him or not, is our national leader, and we offer respect to him, as such. That's the way it should be. We are the "United" States, not a coalition of countries with their own agendas."

Great! That's one of the things I like from the States. Here the President and the ministers are hardly respected. It is not uncommon to see a minister in a tricky situation (in Barcelona some strikers threw tomatoes to a minister, and all the media and the oposition blame the minister of the police actuation which occured after that).

Yoy must understand that it sounds fun when we see how you think about your president.

"I've heard Spaniards say that the illegal Morrocans should go home. What you hear someone refer to in the U.S. is that the illegal Mexicans should go home. It's the same thing, not a conspiracy against them. In fact over the years they have been allowing many of them to gain U.S. citizenship."

Now about 3 million if I'm well informed. Yes, spaniards are a bit "hostile" to morrocans, probably the same as mexicans in the States. Any of the situations is wrong. Keep in mind, I have not said spanish society is perfect or a paradise, I was only pointing some things that surprised me when I was there, and I didn't know before.

"The question of us owning guns is an interesting one. It is our constitutional right to own them..."

Excuse me if it appeared as if I was saying there are no illegal arms in Spain. See, my english is far from perfect

I really don't like that the weapons are that extended in USA. I know it is a constitutional right, and that it is more justified than in other countris (certainly I will have one if the nearest town is 50Km away). In Spain there are much less weapons than in the USA, and automatics are only used by ETA from time to time and very uncommonly by other criminal bands.

I believe that the less legal and ilegal weapons there are, the safer all of us would be (it's just my opinion, I'm not trying to impose it, just explaining my point of view).

"As for your statement about our movies, I think you're reading a hell of a lot more into things than exists."

Of course. A movie just tell you a story, the rest is interpretation, mixed of what I have seen and expirienced.

Probably Maryland is not a good reflex of the whole States.

Hey, why don't you explain me how it is? I feel you have seen my post as a sour critic of some aspects of your society as a whole. Tell me how you think you are, and I will tell you how I see you; perhaps you could change my point of view

Fernando

Fernando,

Post your e-mail address in your profile if you want to exchange views. It's not really appropriate to get as far off base as we have in this forum.

Wolf (My e-mail address is shown, feel free to contact me.)

Fernando, I think I can speak for most of the Americans on this site. We either love Spain or we want to love Spain. Sometimes, the anti-American rhetoric we hear, most notably from Europeans who keep buying so many American products, makes this love very difficult to foster. But, as the persistent and optimistic Americans that we are, we will continue to pursue this beautiful relationship: Espana y The United States. We have a common history and I really really really believe that we can share a very properous future!
(y tu ingles es mucho mas mejor que mi espanol)

Hi toddy, I really don't understand the logic in that reasoning.

We buy american beings=>We are unauthorized to give our opinion/point of view on any matter regarding America=>If we give it, then you don't like Spain.

Does it make any sense to you?

1st) You probably like Spain or you wouldn't be in this message board

2nd) I can't stand anti-american rethoric, nor pro-american one. Only argumented and reasoned topics. America is a country of contrasts, with things I like, and things I dislike (probably the same as you in regard of Spain).

3rd) I buy american made products because I like them, not because they are made in USA. Do you buy products looking after the country in which it is manufactured?

4th) You don't have to convince me of the good relationship we have and we will have because I have telled you I like USA in general, and I think that having a good relationship will benefit both of us as countries.

Maybe my previous posts were a little rude. Beware that the way we speak (spanish) is more direct than the way you speak (english). You use a lot of expressions unknown to me to soft the statements ("I tend to believe...", "I could agree to a point...", etc). Don't missunderstood me, it is just I don't manage english and such details with diligence, not that I intend to be not unrespecting.

I have repeated by now many times, I like the USA, like its society in general and would like to visit it more, but that doesn't prevent me to see and be aware of what things I dislike of your country and your society. Do you understand what I'm trying to explain? It's a cultural difference, just that.

To put an example: As it has happened, you see any dislike forgeiners could show as anti-americanism and a direct attack to your way of thinking. If it was the reverse, you criticising some aspects of spanish culture or society I will discuss it pleasantly, I could agree or disagree, but I would never see it as a show of anti-spanism (is that word correct? hehehe).

Fernando

Fernando, I think we're getting closer to understanding each other. Maybe, I was not direct enough. What I meant about anti-american rhetoric was not about specific issues, it was about a generalized criticism of the United States. Let me explain: We hear Europeans say, "We hate America" "We think you are the worst country in the World" "We think all you do is export trash culture to Europe." etc. etc. Then the actions we see and read about in Europe is...Europeans by the busload coming to visit America...Robo Cop 10 is a smash hit in Europe...Europe loves Mc Donalds...Europe loves baywatch and American tv...This is my point; debating issues is one thing but generalized negative beliefs about a country is a complete different story. For example, we could debate the morals of Spanish Bullfighting, but I would never say Spain is a terrible violent country that no humane person should call home because they have bullfighting in Spain. And, because of bullfighting, all Spaniards are inhumane cowards. This is what I mean about anti-American hypocrital rhetoric. This is what we hear from the American and European press. I remember the first time I went to Spain someone told me that I wasn't the typical bad American... funny because, I was the first American they ever met!

Fernando:

It is wonderful that you are willing to learn more about the culture. It is important to recognize that even after spending a month in the U.S., you can not have the overall picture of the country. Different regions of our country have different cultures and values. We also have significant differences between urban and rural areas. After living in Sevilla for 6 months, I feel that I have a better understanding of Spaniards in Southern Spain, but I am still largely ignorant of the northern areas, such as el Pais Vasco, Galicia, etc. However, I would love to learn more about those and visit those provinces.

It may seem that people have taken offense at your posts, but I think most people here are genuinely interested in breaking the stereotypes that so many other countries have of us, often because of our entertainment productions.

<<In aaaaaaaall the pictures where the figure of the president is present he is a hero, that implies that he is like a great father for you, the most respected institution of the USA.>>
This is not necessarily what we believe about our actual presidents, but is more of an ideal of what we *wish* our presidents were like. As the elected leader of our nation, we would like to think that in a time of crisis our president would be honorable, courageous, and caring for the people. We all know that this is not necessarily true, but it is the best we can hope for in our national leader. The movies you see where the president is a hero represent our dream of what a good president should be, not the reality of what we actually have. However, for this reason you will find that many of our past presidents have been military heroes. We respect people who make good decisions, are willing to sacrifice themselves for others, and who have a sense of honor and duty.

<<Through the movies we could know that the weapons are quite common in the USA, and that it is rather normal to have one, specially if yoy don't live in a city.>>
This is a generalization, but as in many stereotypes, there is a grain of truth at the heart. As you know, Americans can legally "bear arms." Many foreigners tend to think (due to our movies) that *all* Americans have guns. This is not true. I have never owned a gun, nor do I hope to. No one in my family owned a gun, until my sister married an avid hunter. Therefore, he owns several shotguns and rifles. No handguns, though. Violence is a terrible problem in our country and I agree that there needs to be gun reform. However, that is an entirely separate issue that is politically debated every day.

<<In almost every movie there is a black actor. If it is an action movie the most probable outcome is that he dies in an heroic way, while the white actor survives. What tell me that (and what I've seen in the States)? There is some guilty sense about blacks, it seems you believe you own something to them because all they suffered in the past.>>
This is an amusing statement. If whites feel truly guilty, it seems to me that the white character should be the one to sacrifice himself so that the black character should live. We do have many racial tensions in the United States, and the degree of tensions often depends on the region of the country. I would not say that our movies correctly portray minority groups or racial relations in the U.S., since the majority of directors, writers, and actors in Hollywood all are white.

<<Not to mention that when a latino apears on the screen he is always a narco or the bad guy (fortunately that is changing).>>
There is a reason for this. In the past, our movie bad guys were usually the Soviets or other countries in the Eastern European block due to our strained relations with those countries. Now that the "Cold War" is over, the U.S. doesn't have clear enemies. However, we still have problems with illegal drug trafficking from Central America. So they are the new "bad guys" of our movies. It is unfair and often depicts all Latinamericans in a bad light.

<<I saw in the States that latinos where not welcomed. Some americans told me that mexicans should go back to their country, and that americans should not pay their health treatments.>>
Keep in mind that the U.S. does not have socialized health care, meaning that we all pay for private health insurance. We do have some federal programs which provide health benefits to the poor which are supported through federal taxes. In essence, this means that people who are financially able must pay for their own family's insurance, and are also forced to pay taxes to provide insurance for others. This has created a lot of resentment among many Americans because they do not want to pay taxes that would provide health insurance for illegal immigrants, many of whom do not pay taxes. Again, keep in mind that not all Americans hold the same view on this subject.

<<I was also very surprised when someone told me that before meeting any spaniard he thought we were like mexicans (nothing bad attached to being mexican, but we are phisically different).>>
I think you will find that many Americans are very ignorant about other countries and cultures. A lot of us tend to assume that anyone who speaks Spanish is Mexican.

<<One of the worst things I take back from USA was my impressions about your policemen. Not only they were not helpful, they were very bad educated, they shout at us (I'm not talking about once, but three times we encounter one) althought we were tourists.>>
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the policemen. Were they all in one city or state? I find that our policemen are generally very helpful and dedicated, especially considering the terrible pay and horrible work conditions that they face. However, the quality of policemen varies a *great* deal by city. Some larger cities are notorious for their terrible police departments. So I hope that you won't generalize all U.S. policemen by three encounters.

I apologize for the lengthy note, but hope that this helps clear up a few things.

Well, I have been three times, to NY, Chicago, and Miami once each (fifteen days each), and I think there is a world of variety for me to discover in the USA.

No matter than in some aspects they are very alike, one of the things I have noticed is that you can find any possible way of thinking among them. They are different from each other. May be even more than we are conservative/progressive, old-fashioned/modern, nice/unpleasant, ecologist/polluter, smoker/non-smoker, selfish/generous, anarchist (yes, I met one, in Spain)/capitalist, ...

[ 07-20-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

I live on the border and perhaps my two cents worth will help clarify some immigration issues! One of our biggest problems here in that the United States Government does not pay anything towards the care of illegals. If someone crosses the border and is found barely alive in the desert, the law states that the hospitals MUST take care of this person AT NO CHARGE. The hospitals must eat this expense as there is no possible reimbursement! Now, those of us who are lucky enough have our health care paid for by our employers. Those who are citizens but too poor to pay also have coverage. The rest of us have to pay for our insurance out of pocket or run the risk of huge bills if we need surgery, for example, and don't have health insurance. The illegal alien gets all his medical care FREE! Some of our hospitals are running into serious financial trouble because of this and, of course, the costs wind up going to those who CAN pay...which increases both medical costs and insurance premiums! The stream of those who want to be here is endless, and the cost of taking care of them is really hitting people hard. Mexicans take the blame for this here because, gee whiz, we are right on the Mexican border!! Yes, there are some folks from other countries that cross the border illegally here too (amusingly enough, Vicente Fox is trying to stem the flow of illegals through Mexico's southern border!!!!), but MOST of our illegals are Mexican nationals. I know the rest of the world thinks all Americans have deep pockets, but it just isn't so! When immigration hits folks in the wallet, they stop smiling!

La Maestra:

You are absolutely right, and I should have clarified: illegal aliens do not legally qualify for federal assistance. However, here in NC (and I'm sure in other parts of the country) we have a lot of problems with counterfeit documents (false green cards, SS#'s) being used to solicit benefits.

Also, children born in the U.S. are citizens and therefore qualify for many federal-assistance programs regardless of their parents' legal status. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just another side of the coin.

Thanks for your informative response!

Well my friends we shouldn't give Fernando such a hard time. I think that the majority of us U.S. Citizens who visit this message board have taken some offence at being sterotyped by the movies we produce. Although Fernandos examples weren't all that great, he's still right to a large extent. Our movies DO show the rest of the world what's going on in the United States in the way of the popular mind, and societal problems. No one wants to hear that they can be generalized as individuals, and I don't think Fernando was trying to say that, however; our society can certainly be exposed to the rest of the world through our art reflecting our lives and society. Independence day is a very bad example, Which makes it easy for anyone with a rebutle to pick Fernandos statment apart about presidents being heroic very easyly. But something that hasn't been mentioned is what about movies like, American Beauty, or American Pie, or Boys in the Hood? What about moives that reflect society, and are movies we can relate to? There are movies aimed to portray everyone from the normal high schooler, to the young men and women who grow up the the ghetto. After all The United States is the cinematic powerhouse of the world, and the pioneer in using film as art to reflect life why would we find it peculiar that peoples of other nations know us better than we know them. Are we all gun wielding hero-types? No. But Fernando didn't say that, he said that the movies give him and other Spaniards an idea of how we are, which I'd aggree with, and so should the majority of the rest of us. How many times have we gone to a teen flick, or watched a drama and were able to relate? Or felt that the film was hitting close to home, at least in some small way? Just think about it.

GREAT!!!!!

I'm sitting by now, 5:07 in the morning, asleep, reading the recent post about this matter.

This time I have to say that both you have understood what I wanted to say and that you have given me an insight in american society and reasons for the topics and stereotypes I told you (and that I didn't know).

Thank you very much

ReadMadOllie: Yes, that was what I mean, the movies give as an aproximate idea of how your society and customs are. Just that. Of course it doesn't mean that all americans think alike or are alike. Fortunately you have a rich variety of points of view.

Mel-knee and LaMaestra: I knew the resentment toward mexicans was because of the way you manage helth insurances. Think that in Spain it is managed in a different way (we all pay a percentage of our income and have the right to use the health resources "free", the inmigrants have the same right).

Mel-knee, your first post is a pearl. Thank you for taking the time to write it. As you have guessed I was not implying (maybe I expressed myself wroongly) that the american stereotype is how all americans are.

I was just pointing my, probably not accured, impressions and conclusions of my short trip there. I realize how much it left me to discover of the USA.

In regard of policemen: I tend to believe that they are so blunt because the crime they have to fight is much agresive and dangerous than in Spain (my three encounters were in New York airport, in Philadelphia and in Washington DC). I firmly believe that the less guns there are, the better for all the population (though I tell you that if I were isolated in a countryside in the USA I would have a gun to defend myself, at least from the animals).

Great explanation of the concept of president the movies present us all

Let me say that I really feel something is changing in the States. If all such delicate matters are being discussed (restrictions on arms, death penalty, health insurance, racial tensions,...) is because the american society is a dynamic one, which should tend to develop in a better way of coexistence between yourselves.

The better USA goes, the better the world would be, that's for sure.

Fernando,
I don't think Health Care is free in Spain.I think many people have to pay for their medicine in Spain, no? (just trying to dispel a myth)
Interesting note: before going to Spain I saw "Carne Tremula" "Live Flesh." Imagine what I thought about Spain after seeing this? My parents went last summer to Spain for the first time....I wouldn't let them see "Not without my Mother," before they went. I didn't want to give them a bad immpression of Spain.

Hey, can anyone join in this discussion? I just got back from three great weeks in Spain, with my wife, daughter and grandaughters (5 & 8). I am bilingual (Spanish not Castillian). I used to travel to Madrid a lot 30 years ago, and as a transport pilot also got to go to a lot of other countries. What I find funny about this discussion is the great similarities between americans and spaniards. For example, both cultures are much more ethnocentric than other europeans. both are least likely to speak another language. I think to understand the reasons for the differences between americans and europeans you have to look at the differences in both history and infrastructure. In spain population density is much greater. In the US the rural population is much greater. Public transportation is available to fewer people, etc. ...

Great post, we are VERY similiar and yet our differences are very complimentary.
My beautiful Spanish wife and I fit together like pieces of a puzzle.
(woops, the film was "All about my mother.")

Just to clarify the Immigration issue, the US is made up people from all over the world. The majority of Americans descend from Europe. Currently, 15 % is Black, 16% Hispanic, 59% Anglo-European, 6% Asian and 4% other.
Ilegal immigrants come from many countries, not only Mexico. If the US really wanted to stop the flow of ilegal people coming across the border, it can do it over night. The greatest country in the world with the best technology and military weapons,of course!
However, many politicians & business people choose to look the other way. The US will not survive without the cheap labor from south of the border. Many companies depend on this labor in order to financially survive. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ILEGAL RESIDENT AND ONE THAT IS A US CITIZEN IS THAT ONE DOES NOT FILL OUT AN INCOME TAX FORM AT THE END OF THE YEAR. However, Ilegals pay taxes every time they purchase goods and services. They pay 8 to 10 % of sales taxes. They also pay property taxes & taxes when they purchase a new vehicle. Taxes are also withhold from their pay checks. The US goverment collects Millions of Dollars from ilegal residents living in the US.
Many employers choose Mexicans, because they are Hard working people who never complain.
Mexicans are a mixture of Spanish and Indian. Some are pure Indian and others are pure Spanish. But the majority of Mexicans are Mestizos.
Some Mexican-Americans are native people of what is America today. For example in Texas, many Mexicans are natives of Texas.
They first became Spanish citizens, then Mexican citizens, then Texan Citizens and later when Texas joined the union they became American Citizens.
So, there is a difference between Mexicans and Mexican-Americans.

Although I knew what you expose in general terms, your post made it much more clear. Thanks.

Tejano, are you suggesting we nuke the illegals? Or should we pull all our troops together and have them link arms at the vast border between the US and Mexico? Unless we dedicated all of our resources to the matter, we'd still have illegals. If nothing else, we'd have those who came in legally on, say, a tourist visa and just stayed forever. There are indeed businesses that would have a hard time keeping their profits up without undocumented workers, but the enforcement laws against the hiring of illegals would turn the US into a Big Brother State in no time at all. The solution, really, is to have Mexico (since they are the prime suppliers of workers) improve its economy enough so that people aren't forced to leave in order to survive.

If you mean that illegals are the same as legals in terms of their humanity, you're right...everyone's the same. However, the situation is a bit like saying the people you asked into your home are the same as those who broke in while you were at the store. Perhaps you would have invited them in, but the fact is, they entered illegally. Don't tell me that the folks from Oaxaca, for example, used to live here and so they should have the right to travel freely...it doesn't work like that! They come here precisely because it is the US, not because it used to be Mexico.

Yes, illegals pay taxes...maybe. If they work for someone who really looks the other way...housekeeping, babysitters, even some landscaping or day jobs...no one writes a check, the employer doesn't report the worker and no social security is paid. In AZ there is no tax on food. If you buy a used car from a private seller, there is no sales tax. Garage sale clothing...no tax. School kids here get two free meals a day, their uniforms (if required), free books, and school supplies...no sales tax paid on that. Income may be so low that little or no tax is paid even for those who have fake social security numbers. In theory what you say sounds perfectly correct...in practice it is not always quite like that.

Perhaps in Texas the hospitals get money for treating illegals. Not so here. Our two trauma centers are both in such dire straits now because of unpaid bills that they may have to shut down. If that occurs, all our trauma cases would have to be sent to Phoenix! You know what it would cost to pay for your emergency room treatment...multiply that by the number of cases that come through border areas. No tax money goes into this...the US government doesn't pay, and Mexico sure doesn't. Those who are here legally can qualify for our state health care program, and taxes do pay for that, but those who are illegal are costing the private hospitals money that simply is not reimbursed.

Here in Arizona we have a damned if we do, damned if we don't plan. La Migra tightened up the borders at city crossings, and the number of illegal entries dropped. Then the illegals...who never stopped being hungry or needy...started crossing in rural areas: the desert. Well, we don't want people to DIE, so suggestions went out that we put up signs to warn people that they were entering the desert. That didn't help. Then human rights groups decided to put water tanks out in the desert marked with giant flags so illegals could find the water. La Migra is not allowed to pick up anyone at a watering station (sort of a red light, green light thing.) That wasn't enough. Now we have communication centers with solar panels to light the things up so illegals can call for a ride to town if things get too rough! If we really try to stop the entrance of people (nearly impossible given the size and terrain of the border) we are criticized for being heartless!

La maestra (who can fully understand both sides of the issue, but can't come up with a really intelligent solution.)

While this is a very interesting discussion.... Reminder of Topic Name: Being an American in Spain. Thanks.

Oops! :o Yes, we have gotten a bit off the topic...though not as far off as all that! Let's see if I can tie it back together: I think Americans in Spain (and elsewhere in the world) are expected to have solutions to problems that no one else has. I hate to relate things to movies (we can get way off on that again) but the US tends to take the role of Obi Wan! I think Spaniards (and others!) are shocked to find that we DON'T know how to solve problems...our own or anyone else's. We are a wealthy, powerful country, but we have the same issues of poverty, crime, inequality, prejudice, immigration, human rights violations, education, etc. as every other country in the world. As Americans, we have an idea of what we should be doing, but sometimes it seems we can't win for losing! A lot of what comes across as prejudice is tied closely to a frustration with feeling out of control and unable to "fix" everything.

I am always fascinated by the kinds of questions I get from people while I'm in Spain. "Why is it that you Americans...?" and then a really good question on a highly charged, debatable issue. How can we be a free country if smokers aren't free to smoke? How can we be a nation of immigrants if we restrict immigration? How can we be champions of human rights and have human rights violation occurring all the time? We must have a really terrific agent out there somewhere portraying us as being a whole lot wiser than any of us really are!

La maestra (who hopes she has gotten back to the topic )

[ 08-21-2001: Message edited by: la maestra ]

Hola Maestra!
Wow, thought you were writing a dissertation of ilegals and Arizona Hospitals.
I agree with MadridMan, the subject is Being an American in Spain. I guess in part this conversation of ilegals does relate to this topic. As an American in Spain you cannot avoid the immigration issue that Spain is going through. It is very similar to the one we have back home in the US.
Spain has thousands of immigrants coming into their country ilegally. They will soon have to deal with issue in a big scale.
Here in the US, the entry of ilegals into the US has been going on for hundreds of years.
No Maestra, I am not for nuking the ilegals or am I pro opening up the borders. All I saying is that the US has the ability to stop ilegals from coming into the country, but it will not do it. This is due to Economic reasons. There are people who profit from ilegals and others who lose money. Unfortunetly, in Arizona's Medical industry it seems to be losing.
However, in Texas many employers look the other way and put pressure on our US congressmen & US Senators to soften the border patrol. We issue visas, permits, extensions etc.. for undocumented workers. WE NEED THEIR LABOR & SKILLS. Many Americans don't want to work from 7:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. under the Texas Sun, like many Hispanic immigrants do. In Texas there are more people who benefit from ilegals.
I understand that this is not the case for California & Arizona.
What the US should do is allow only immigrants who have clean records and willing to work hard. Issue working permits for them to work legally in the US and pay taxes to the fullest extent.
I'm sorry Maestra that the Hospitals in Arizona are losing funds due to the ilegal flow. But hey our US government wastes millions of dollars on stupid projects. At least, in this case we are being humanitarian.
PS Mexican immigrants into the US has declined, many ilegals are now coming from Central America & Asia.

Being an illegal American in Spain isn't the same as being an illegal alien in the U.S., but for the sake of us not getting whapped alongside the ear by MadridMan, we'll say it is...

I remember a headline I read in the San Antonio Light back in about 1980, that over 50% of the people working for contractors building houses in Texas were illegals. That was a huge number, since the building boom was still going strong, and there were about 2 million people employed in that field alone.

Since we lived in a new development near New Braunfels, I decided to check it out, and as I got to know the contractors I found out that the figure was probably understated. Their entire crews were illegal except for their foremen who could drive their vehicles because they had valid drivers licenses, and a smattering of bi-lingual Texans (mostly of Mexican-American descent) who could do translations for them.

Their reason for hiring them? They told me they were the best workers they had, dependable, did a fair day's work in the blistering sun, and last but not least, they couldn't even win a bid to build houses unless they hired illegals because the wages were too high for legal citizens. In other words, they were forced to hire these people because they had to stay competitive.

I think the biggest problem then, which I would guess still exists, is the fact that the State of Texas has done a good job of concealing how much it actually costs the taxpayers for the medical attention these workers and their families receive. To put it bluntly, there's no such thing as a free lunch, somebody has to pay for the food.

In talking to a friend, who is associated with Humana Hospitals, I found out that they only take on illegal patients because they are guaranteed payment by the government. But what fund is this coming from? How is the state raising this money? Obviously the fed isn't giving it to them. If they were, Arizona and California would also be getting funding. My guess is, they are diverting funds from other areas. As an example, the ever rising property tax issues that are beginning to bug a lot of Texans. Is the money coming from that source, or is it being diverted from oil funds? I have no idea, but I do know that there has to be some way that the state is squeezing the money out of Texans. Whether or not it's the right thing to do, On one hand I think about the cost, and on the other I see a child who needs help, and the doors of hospitals being closed to them. It's one of the worst dilemmas society has, and as time goes by, Spain will be facing it as well. I just read about the Spanish government catching nearly 1,000 illegals trying to come in from Africa, in one week. Most of them coming out of Morocco I might add. In fact, regardless of what they say, if they have no identity papers, that's where they are going through deportation.

Wolf (Who has no idea how to solve these problems. If I did, I'd certainly share it with the world.)

Tejano, I found myself pulled into your first post on immigration, and I feel a tug again! First, since we have an estimated 2-3 million illegals, saying the US collects "millions of dollars" from them isn't saying much! $1 a person would do that!

My dissertation clearly stated that according to the AZ press, the US government is NOT paying for the medical treatment of illegals, so they are not taking the money they squander on things like the mating habits of the crosseyed tree frog and spending it on humanitarian causes.

The immigration figures I saw published last week still have Mexican immigrants at #1.

We have not had an illegal immigration problem for hundreds of years because prior to 1875 there was no immigration policy at all. The US was free to whoever could get here. The first inspectors began working in 1891. Things didn't really get pulled together until 1906! They were originally trying to screen for physical and mental health problems, moved on to literacy, and then went all over the ideological place trying to decide on a "correct" policy. Until air travel it was pretty hard to sneak into the country because all ships from Europe had to stop at Ellis Island first. Those who did not pass inspection were returned home at the expense of the shipping line. So, the problem with illegal immigration as we know it is really pretty new.

This relates to Fernando's old post on American attitudes towards Mexicans AND to the understandable curiosity Spaniards have demonstrated regarding our attitudes and policies on immigration. Spain is now enjoying a pretty strong economy and is a free and progressive country. That makes it look pretty darned good to a lot of folks across the pond from us. According to the last Spaniards I talked with about immigration, Spain finds it difficult to turn people away. I understand that completely. How and where do you make the cut? There are people starving and oppressed out there, and it seems like the only decent thing to do is let them enjoy the benefits of living in a country where things are really good. If you let everyone in, how will you be able to provide for the welfare of your citizens? No country can absorb EVERYONE.

I'm curious...how do Spaniards feel about Americans who want to give up life in the US to live in Spain? Does it strike them as odd, given that a lot of the world seems to think we have it all here? Do they have feelings about who they would like to have emigrate? What is their policy...are there quotas?

I agree with you Maestra. In Spain we are having a similar inmigration problem, specially because Spain is the "gate to Europe" and lots of people from Africa try to enter illegally to Europe through Spain.

I think both Spain and the US have similar inmigration policies. As long as you have a job contract, you can get a residence permit. The problem is that none of those people entering illegally have a job contract and that means that the government have to afford them.

NGO are complaining all the time and saying that Spaniards used to emigrate to other parts of Europe and to America when Spanish economy was not as good as it is now. However, they forgot to mention that those Spaniards emigrate legally with a job contract.

---



In my opinion, the reason why they want to live in Spain is because we know better how to enjoy life and have fun. There's no point in having a lot of money if you don't have the time, the place or the people to enjoy of your situation.


As long as there are enough work for everybody and people who come here do it to work and not to become pickpockets or drugdealers, I guess nobody will complain.

As for policies, I think they are similar in all developed countries and yes, there are quotas.

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: Antonio ]

LaMaestra:

We are, as you well say, in a similar position, and, as Antonio says, it is mostly due to our position as "Gateway to Europe".

Spanish people do not oppose to inmigration, since it is obvious that many of these workers take jobs that the spaniards have not filled for months/years because of low salaries, extreme exploitation from owners (i.e. people from Marocco in andalusian fields), ... However, there is an increasing percentage of people who has been told of the "endless riches" of this country (to sell the ticket and illegal services they supply to introduce him here), who come here with no intention to work - as they did in their country - and those who come here to work, but find it much less financially rewarding than they thought and join criminal groups (drugs, robbery, pickpockets, ...).

The number of killings and the crimes said above have increased slowly but in a growing rate the late years. I wouldn't be surprised if they had doubled in the last 7/8 years, the years of the massive inmigration.

People is slowly beggining to relate these facts, and getting a bit less favourable to inmigrants, which is no good for the many others who work honestly.

People is also begginnig to make differences between them, not because of the colour of their skin, but because of the reputation the have created. It is easier for a peruvian to hire a flat than for an ecuatorian, and for ecuatorians than for a colombian. We see here that the peruvians who have came are more violent people than the average spanish, but it is not common between them to see fights ending in deaths like people from Ecuador. About colombians, I could tell you a lot. In Burgos, there may be a hundred in a town of 200.000, and they are enough to have fed up the inhabitants and make its long centuries' calm nights into a lottery on who is punched or slabbed.

However it is difficult to obtain a work outside Spain to enter legally, I think the government is doing the right thing. It is the spanish firms the ones who have to recruit them in their countries. This is the only way to receive working people not mixed with the sh** of all countries.

About what Tejano and LaMaestra were discussing, I say it is not fair the pronblems hospitals have, but I am pretty sure they (as a community) pay a lot more in taxes when buying, or in the other cases mentioned.
The right thing should be having them legally there, but while it is not this way, they are contibuting to lower prices' apartments, or services (like restaurants), they are paying taxes - I guess Tejano meant billions, and he may be short in his calculations - that should be enough to pay those hospitals for their care.

Besides, prevention of illnesses is good for all of us. Imagine an epidemic that is not noticed or controlled until there are 50.000 infected people in Tucson or Houston!

That is why - I believe - every spanish has the right to a minimum health assistance. They will take out your broken teeth free, to ease the pain, but if you want sth. extra, you'll have topay for it unless you arte given a help because you're very poor. This covers too the foreign workers - they pay for it - as long as they are legal. I think they would be helped too if they were not, at no price, but they don't take the risk that they may be pointed out to the police.

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

i would like to add something here. by the 8 months i have lived here, this is my impression of what spaniards think of americans.

1. spaniards constantly ask me if americans know where spain is on the map. they think americans don´t even know where spain is on the map, thinking we are not all that educated.

2. they constantly flip out and are baffled when they find out what my name is knowing i an american. ( my name is Maria Cristina Barrero-Espinosa) they ask me how i have that name if i am an american. they think everyone is a cowboy or something. i try to explain to them there is everything in the the united states.

3. they think we all eat hamburgers and hot dogs everyday. (i haven´t eaten a hamburger in over a year!!)

4. they think everyone is fat in the united states.

5. they think everyone is white, blond and blue eyed. they are astonished when i show them pictures of my friends who are korean, dark, filipino and so forth.

6. they think we all use laundrymats to wash our clothes.

7. they think we are all rather wealthy and live well.

there is more but i have to goo!!!! got to go to work!!

Well, I wanted to answer to our view of N.Americans, but I ran out of time.

Now, I will use MM98 as a scheme:

1 - It is said, that N.A. couldn't find Spain in the map. I always thought it depends on the education received. I can point 9 countries out of 10 in the map, but there are some I can't do it (some african ones or other very tiny), so, I can understand that.

2 Maria Cristina's names and surnames are very spanish. Through films - from where we learn most of this, except for the small percentage who have visited you- we know there are many latins, but their names use to begin by Ricky or Judith, ..., and the surnames are of a mixed origin ( in Argentina, italian and spanish, in Peru and Brazil,some are japanese or german or british, in Brazil, portuguese and some spanish too, ...) but hers could be from the next village you see in the road.

3 We do believe you eat a lot of fast-food - I read somebody in this forum complaining that in the North there was no pizza or hot dogs for kids. In my opinion, it is abad way to feed them, but ... Anyway, in the States, people use to eat out (lunch), and you can not eat at a french or italian every lunch. I have seen a lot of sandwich/burguer/pizza/doghnuts.

4 - There is a rumour that most americans are fat, but in TV you see everybody slim. I had no idea, but the people I saw in towns were average. I think even the media said there is a lot of very fat people in the States, so people tend to believe that, but they are not very certain.

5 - The people I know, knows very well (always through films) that there are several ethnias and that black and mexican latinos are the major minorities.

6-They think you use laundrymats, ..., well many do, don't they? Unless there is a cleaners' close by. Again laundries are shown in films. We always wash at home, and iron at home.

7-We tend to believe that you have a comfortable/good standard of living.

I personally think you are hard-working, reliable, punctual, professional at work, free but only in the space the community and its rules allow, proud, colder than us, tend to believe everybody has to know English, free from some of the ethic principles we have, liberal when partying, conservative in family, ...

Ignacio,

Some people use laundromats, but they are usually renting an apartment. Americans who own homes, or rent one, usually have a washer and dryer. It's rare by comparison to Spain, to find people hanging clothes outside, or on an indoor rack to dry.

What some Americans don't understand when they go to Spain, is that our clothing has a tendency to be made out of heavier material. When we wash them in Spain, it takes much longer to get them dry. That's why my wife and I have opted to go to laundries where you drop the clothes off, and pick them up, washed and pressed while in Spain.

We are a nation of overweight people by most standards. But in respect, the average American is also taller. That's why we have so many stores in the U.S. that sell nothing but clothes for what they call "Big & Tall" people. Even the chain stores are getting better about having them available, and it's giving us a much wider selection to choose from.

Yes! We are a nation of fast food restaurants. If there's a busy intersection, chances are there's at least one or two burger joints, Taco Bell, or subway sandwich shop. A lot of that has to do with our lifestyle. We can't seem to stop long enough to sit down and eat a real meal. We've lost touch with the family values of the whole family gathering together for meals on a regular basis. Part of it is because of the activities that kids have at school, and the fact that they are on the go all the time. The rest of it, because not everyone wants to, or has enough energy to cook a full meal every night.

Generally speaking Americans are hard workers. We get very little vacation time compared to the European community. Most employers in the U.S. seem to think that people should be happy with 1 or 2 weeks vacation, even after four or five years of work. That's not much free time for people to enjoy. But industry and business in the U.S. really doesn't care about the people in general. To most employers, a person is just a body that fills a need for them, and they will hire the person who is willing to work the hardest, for the least amount of money, and benefits. Because of these shortcomings, we're finding that a rift is beginning to develop between employers and employees, that is changing he work force. People are not as punctual, and call in sick at a higher rate each year. Even professional people, like Engineers, are changing jobs. A study done in the mid 90s indicated that the average Mechanical Engineer stayed with one employer for an average of about 4 1/2 years. Twenty years earlier, that figure was over 11 years. You might say we're a nation in constant motion, changing jobs, and being unhappy way too much of the time.

As for our educational system, we do have problems. Most of it deals with teachers often having too many students in a class, too many classes to teach, and a lack of understanding on the part of taxpayers that what these people do is a thankless job. We even end up cutting down on the available classes, and that's when the trouble begins. We can't give them enough time learning rudimentary things like geography. My guess is, there's an enormous number of Americans that can't find Spain on the map.

On the face of things, we appear to have a good standard of living. But that's not true for everyone. I'm afraid that there's way too many people that are trying to survive on incomes below the poverty level. As a guess, there are more Americans, by percentage, that are below the poverty level in the U.S., than there are in Spain. I'm not certain about that, but I'm making an educated guess.

If I was to compare the way people live in Spain to the U.S., I'd say we break even. The advantages we have in spendable income, and toys, like cars, boats, motorcycles, and a TV in every room, is offset by the values that Spaniards place on enjoying family, and simpler things that are relaxing. We're too busy running up debt, then sweating out the next payments to enjoy what we have, as much as we should. As an example; We hear it on one TV ad about credit cards. The average American family is roughly $8,000 in debt on credit cards alone. That's incredible!

Our ethnic background is amazing. I think the best way to describe it is the inscription on the Statue of Liberty.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

I guess that's who we are. We're everyone, and even though immigration into the U.S. isn't as easy as it once was (I have a copy of the Ship's manifest when one pair of my grandparents arrived from Germany in 1895.), we are still that nation of mongrels that were tossed here with no idea what lay ahead. People who couldn't speak the language, and often had no idea where they were going to get their next meal. All they knew was this was the place to go, at that time, to be free.

In many respects, we are Spain, France, Germany, the UK, China, Japan, Korea.... the list is endless. We are a melting pot from the world. In a sense, if you come right down to it, we are you, and you are one of us.

Sorry I wrote so much.

Wolf

Now it was your turn to give a sociology and history lesson.

I will say it in spanish, not to lose the rhyme: "A la cama no te irás, sin saber una cosa más" - You'll never go to bed wiyhout learning something.

I've always heard it this way: "Nunca te acostarás, sin saber una cosa más"

We can only report on those things we have observed or on our own experience. But if we put together all the 'bits and pieces' of information posted on this thread, we may get a fairly accurate picture of what being an American in Spain is like and what people of Spain think of Americans.

Perhaps some of the Spanish people used to envy Americans because of our love affair with the automobile and what appeared to be our higher standard of living as portrayed in our movies. But I think that is all in the past - 'Quality of life' is what it's all about; and any shortcoming in quantity of things is more than made up by quality of life for the average Spanish family.

Most homes in Spain have washing machines and most other modern appliances. In July I stayed with a cousin in Barcelona (1st time since the '92 Olympics). I remembered using the washer back then. We hung the clothes out on a clothes line in the interior court yard of the apartment building as many other people in that building in a fashionable neighborhood (Pi y Maragall, near Sagrada Familia).
Our relatives in Madrid do the same thing in their upscale neighborhood (Almeda de Osuna) although the washing is done by Pili, their 'muchacha.' In their vacation home in the province of Huelva, the routine is the same.
The people who use laundromats are the same as those who use laundromats in the U.S: students, renters, backpackers and people who either can't afford their own appliance or don't have room for one.

The people in Spain (and other European countries) get more vacation time, better retirement benefits and generally a more 'laid back' lifestyle than we have in the U.S. Who wouldn't want to live in such an environment??

[ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: Eddie ]

The big difference in washing machines seems to be that it is standard equipment for apartments in Spain (at least in Sevilla). Most apartments had a washing machine and an interior clothesline to hang the clothes. Even missmadrid's apartment came with a strange washer. Most apartments in the US have neither of these things. The apartment complex may have a room with coin operated washers and dryers or it may not. My building in NYC does not, so I have to wash the clothes in a nearby laundromat. When I lived in Spain, I never went to a laundromat (though I did once in Madrid on a recent trip).

question... who is caminante,,,,,, how do you know i have a washer in my home, have you visited me? i have had alot of people visit me through this message board and i was just curious who you were, or did someone tell you i had a funky washing machine in house!!!!!

Silly! You posted your washing machine horror story in one of your updates!!

Let's look a little deaper at this issue.
I understand(wolf, feel free to correct me)that a big reason for Spain's so called "quality of life," stems from the Franco government. (stop the gasps Spaniards and hear me out) People are able to go home for lunch because factory tenament housing was created to support the Franco regime. With Franco's consent, American(via the US military) and other outside influences of modern life began to enter Spain. Now, you can find malls in most cities, Micky d's, Pizza Hut, and even Spanish fast food(can't remember the name though) The "new wealth", pijos if you will, are wanting bigger housing and the townhouse market is skyrocketing. More Spaniards then ever are buying cars and the traffic in Madrid is just as bad as LA. More Spaniards than ever have moved out of their "home" city to find work. Less and less spaniards are going home for lunch and more and more are eating fast food. Spaniards along with Italians watch more TV than any other European country. Spaniards also perform more plastic surgery than any other country in Europe(but not penelope I think)Although still lower than the US, violent crime is increasing dramitically in Spain.
Now, my question is the following: Do Spaniards HAVE to live this way. Or, are they choosing to, just like here in the US.

This thread is getting too long; but I couldn't let those (IMHO) inaccurate remarks go by without replying:

Traffic in Madrid is not as bad as L.A, it's worse, especially considering that you have four (rather than two) 'rush hours' a day.

As for crime: Most of my Spanish relatives and Spanish people I know have never been victims of violent crime. They know about it because they read newspapers and watch TV. They take the same precautions we do in our home cities - there are certain places you don't go, especially at night. 40-years ago when I lived in Madrid, violent crime was almost unknown - but with large numbers of 'illegals,' and drugs, things have gotten worse.

There were numerous 'incursions' in Spain by European Tourists long before any American Military presence there. Many were Germans, Luftwaffe Pilots returning to visit a WWII R&R facility on Spain's Mediterranean coast where they had spent time during the war.

French & Italian tourists took advantage of the really cheap prices at Spain's resorts.

Do you imply that before the Franco regime there was no afternoon 'siesta' in Spain?
Wrong! Franco's reconstruction of Spain's infrastructure after 4-years of Civil War had to include some residential structures because of all that were destroyed during that conflict; but it had little to do with the soul of the Spanish people (or their attitude).

Which is it: Spanish or Italians who watch the most TV? And you don't mention portable (cell) phones - I think the Spanish people have some kind of record there.

Cosmetic surgery is inexpensive by American standards in Spain. Why wouldn't people use that price advantage?

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: Eddie ]

Toddy,

Spain was one of the main industrial powers in Europe right before Franco's dictatorship. It was after UK, Germany, and France, of course, but the distance between them was even shorter than nowadays. Mining (wolframio, plus the remains of iron), metal works, ship building, guns industry, ..., in the basque country, textile industry in Catalonia, are only examples of it.

Franco's war destroyed the country.

First three years of bombings and sabotages made the industry simply phisically dissapear. Unlike the rest of Europe, because of Franco, we were not helped with the Marshall plan, thus being very difficult for the country to find the resources to develop, from the outstanding poverty his war against the legal government left the country in. My parents still remember having real hunger.

I must admit that from the 60s' on, with the help of some unknown world size economists belonging to hated sect (by me too) Opus Dei, they did a real good job with economy (helped by the tourism industry and Europe´s proximity), making us come to have half the incomes our neighbours had, in the 80s'.

But I being born in 60s', can remember the 80s' as a uncredibly modernizing age. Yes, it's just opposite to what you say. We filled the technology gap just from the dead of Franco on.

About fast food, I consider Mac Donalds, Pizza hut and so on rubbish, like many of my people, so we would be better without them. I don't think they are a measure of development.But, once more, they grew from the 80s' on.

It is not the "newly rich" pijos who buy house, for there are no new rich pijos for years, many of the works are "rubbish contracts" that barely afford to buy a small old flat with a lot of sacrifice and 30 years to pay. These are the new buyers that skyrocket the always skyrocketing market, whose bubble will no doubt soon be punctured.

A proof that you don't know spaniard's behaviours is that, if we can not eat at home, we don't (but for a very small minority) eat fast food, but a "menu del dia". Who would, if you can have a threee courses food with wine or beer for 5$?

As for the crime rate, I myself have informed in the forum that there is SOME violence and crime, not to let people believe this is heaven, BUT I also say that no matter that crime has grown a lot this late years due to the kind of inmigration we are receiving, it is still, according to the news and the reports of N americans in these forums much lower than the average N. american city. There is no neighbourhood in Madrid that I don't dare to walk by at night, may be not as safe as othersm, but there are not any really dangerous for your person. Only a couple of huthamlets far outside Madrid, where drug addicts or gypsies live are really dangerous and I wouldn't walk there.

I read in todays newspaper Madridymas that in Madrid (Or it was Spain?)- Someone?- there have been two slabbed person per day (double than past year). Compare this to a 4.000.000 N Am. city (maybe it is too much). And most of these things happen between LAm people. Todays' a Dominican guy was killed by other Dominican with a brolen glass when arguing about who had a sit.

Ignacio

I have never been harrassed as much as on my last trip to Granada. Of course, I visitited the most popular turist places like Alhambra etc. and you can expect some of it, but this time it was worse. When one is surrounded by 8-10 angry women, trying to force your hand to 'read it' and men pulling your leg with some force in order shine your shoes, one feels just as unvelcome,as a person who is robbed at gun point in some friendly neighborhood mall while using ATM machine.

I wonder why so many houses in Spain have steelbars in all the windows??

That's the gypsies, they prefer living this way than having a egular work. What should we do? Exterminate them? Imprison them?

But you can go to Morocco or Havana, to mention a couple of places I know, and you will learn what being harassed is (day and night, and waiting for you at the entrance of your hotel).

About the steel bars, they are popular in the south, itis a tradition, Haven't you seen films of mexicans or spanish in the old times speaking to their lovers behind those bars. To preserve their virtue (in the old times, of course!). In my parents homeland, in the North, they don´t close the doors in the day no matter if they are (often) working in the fields or barns (fields use to be 0 to 20 miles away), and nothing happens unless gypsies pass by taking a couple of chickens and some TVs and radios (happened several times along the years, fortunately not very often).

Ignacio

Hello Ignacio,
I guess you would be the right person to ask since you are a native of Spain, or anyone that can answer my quetion:
I've studied Spain from Economics, Politics, Religion and culture, but just curious, where do the Gypsies originate from?
Where is their homeland? Is it the south of Spain or France or do they come from Northern Africa? Nomads? Are they Christian?
It seems like they have been an ethinic group disliked by many Europeans and other groups around the world.
Many bad stories are heard from Gypsies, that they steal, cheat, and much more. Why hasn't the Spanish Government done something about their behavior?
Have they assimilated to the main stream Spanish way of wife or do they still maintain their own seperate culture?

Hi Tejano:

Well, I suppose soon MM will tell us we're off topic, but ... we have been for some posts, I don't think one more is too bad.

I feel honoured that you make this question to me. I have also studied History, Economy, Politics, ..., specially on Spain, but also (some of) the world ones.

As many old races, it is difficult to say where they come from. Some historian have said they come from Romania, which is confirmed by the fact that in Romania there are two kinds of population: a white race, very like northern spanish - White/very white skin, brown/clear brown eyes, black/brown hair, and the gypsies, who have brown skin, big noses, black curly hair.

It is said through their legends and oral history, that they came from Egypt in the old times, but what seems obvious is that the resemble the N African people in aspect, from Egypt to Marocco.

First, when spaniards speak badly on gypsies, we are not referring to a race, but to the remains of the people belonging to this race who go on with their nomad life. In Madrid I know some areas where there are 'modern society adapted' gypsies, and, although many people prefer living away from there, because costumes are different - very sexist, lots of noise, too prone to lose temper, ..., I didn't hear many complaints. To be honest, however, just in case some liked my car's wheels, I wouldn't live there, no matter that the possibility is small, unlike with their nomad cousins.

But the ones you really have to take care with are the nomad ones, and the ones who deal with drugs.

About the later, it is obvious why they are dangerous. The first ones ... Well, the gypsies, as you may have seen in films, used to make money through singing, reading hands, ..., and stealing.

If you were an entertainer in the old times, you could live very well with that and with the tell-future tricks with superstitious villagers, but what would you do when there were famines? They wouldn't be so eager to spend money in fun. They learnt to steal, I suppose for survival reasons.

Later, they developed a culture where they despice us. They word they use for non-gypsies 'payo' is something among stranger, stupid and pariah. They are still a bit savage, if you don't fight them when they assault you, they believe it is because you are afraid, not because you don't want to risk your life for ten $.

They think they are better, that's why they don't want to integrate. In L.Am., a person who has no properties, who is darker, who has no education would be willing that his daughter married a rich white cultured man (I don't say I agree, for me, both are of equal dignity), but a gypsy would probably kill his daughter because of dishonour (it has happened), just the other way round, and wrong too, I think.

It is the modern story of nomads versus settled peoples you saw with Atila, taken to our days.

As they don't want to integrate (the ones who don't), they would be marginals, close to homeless, but for the gold mines they found out with prostitution (in the old times) and drugs now.

I agree that also some of the rest of the spaniards deal with drugs, but if 5.000 spaniards and 5.000 gypsies did, what would you think? Spaniards (except gypsies) are 39 Million, gypsies are supposed to be 500.000. The percentage shows which group really works drugs out. Consider also, that the ones who are involved in the mayor crimes are the mafias in big cities, and that many of them have settled in the south (some big villages have half of their populeion with gypsy origin), so, in the cities, the percentage of gypsies dedicated to crime is high, and those who live on this earnings (families) even bigger.

It helps that they have an old fashioned tribal organization (mafia style) where the old bosses of the clan control all.

As a race, they are not crhistian or other religion. They have their own rites (marriage), and I believe the ones that integrated became catholic, although these late years you find many 'evangelicos'- don't know how to translate, it is aprotestant religion, numerous in the USA- The ones I have met who profess this religion have proved to be very honest, even more than the average spaniard.

I suppose the rest of the governments don't like them because of they behaviour. Was the USA happy with the cuban 'Marielitos'? What can governments do? Jails are full, it costs a lot of money to have prisoners there, and we will not exterminate them in 'pogroms'.

Hope this helped.

Ignacio

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Ignacio!
What prejudice! What are you talking about. There are good people and bad people. Remember, Franco's people(and his still living generals, living well in Spain) WERE NOT GITANOS, BUT SPANIARDS!!!!
And you talk about we Americans?
Is this a post-Franco education that your spouting?
A thought for Americans going to Spain, it seems as long if they are singing or dancing gitanos they are ok for some Spaniards, but don't let them get to close.

THERE ARE MANY MANY GREAT PEOPLE WHO ARE SPANISH AND PEOPLE CALL THEM GITANOS AND THEY DON'T DEAL DRUGS, OR BEG, OR DO ANYTHING WRONG!!!!
Ignacio this thinking is WARPED!
Wow, and to think we're in the 21st Century!

Toddy,

Go, take a walk with the non-integrated. But tell me first so that I can tell your family where to bury you!

As you see, my post above was very long. I tried to make it as short as possible, that's why I shortened 'gypsies versus spaniards' when all of us are spaniards. I think it is clear for that who wants to see (and not to accuse of racism because of lack of arguments in other areas).

An example of what I wrote (quote):

'I agree that also some of the rest of the spaniards deal with drugs, but if 5.000 spaniards and 5.000 gypsies did, what would you think? Spaniards (except gypsies) '

Here you can see I am speaking of gypsies as spaniards, come off populism!

AS I SAID BEFORE, there is good people and bad people, but the ethic rules of cultural groups are not always the one you or I think are right. The non integrated ones tend to consider crime something not very morally rejectable. It's much like taking your sister's shampoo or taking your dad's car for a ride, it DOESN'T have the same reject charge that stealing some other's car has for US.

AND I SAID THIS IS NOT A RACIAL MATTER. THAT THERE ARE MANY GYPSIES ,(either in Andalucía working in the fields) or in the rest of Spain, working in entertainment or iron slag, THAT YOU CAN APPROACH SAFELY, but park your car in the non integrated neighbourhoods, go for a meal, and look for your car afterwards, or at least your radio!

I also said that when the rest of spaniards complain about gypsies we are only speaking of the gypsies that are more notorious around us in the cities, the criminal ones, however, when you speak in depth, many spaniards will acknowledge that the ones who work for their living deserve respect.

Well, I prefer to be in this 21st century than in your science-fiction apocaliptic 37th.

Unlike you, I will reserve my opinion on your education. :p

Ignacio

[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Today's newspaper Madridymas (translated by me, and checkeable by anyone in Spain):

'A gypsy woman shot several persons yesterday at the huts village Las Barranquillas. Injured her cousin Encarnación F.R. (pregnant 8 months), and her brother in law Justo M.L., and a drug addict who passsed by.

The police affirm that they know well the family who have bonds with drug traffic. However, they discard that the incident has to do with this matter."

We have had several of these lately, many times between different clans. Doesn't it sound familiar to you? Chicago? New York? Mafia?

You can see all the topics I spoke about happen in this case. Drugs, huts villages (non integrated), bursting temper, ...

I heard some people is discriminated in the States, but these people (at least before getting in a street gang or a drugs selling chain) want to integrate, have an average work, and become a productive citizen. The gypsies everybody complains of, are the ones that wouldn't take it even if offered. They don't even want to send their children to school! And they don't.

Ignacio

Hello Guys,
Question, is Gypsie & Gitano the same?

Ignacio, thanks for the information. Gypsies are rarely mentioned in History books. But you are right, I didn't think that Gypsies were native of Spain. After talking to some professors and people who have lived in Spain, Gypsies desend from N. Africa (Arab-Middle Eastern features).

Toddy: It seems like you have a good perception of most people, which is good. And I agree that in every ethnic group in this planet there are good and bad people. However, I also believe that in some ethnic groups or cultures there are more bad people than good people. In other groups the majority of its people are good citizens, perhaps 80% of its people are good and the other 10% are lazy and the remaining 10% are criminals.
Now as for the Gypsies, they have been known throughout the world of being bad people. Ignacio made a good point, you can offer them a job (earning money legally) and they will turn it down. They would rather steal or live off their relatives who also cheat and steal.
I wouldn't take my chances and be driving around in Andalucia with a non-integrated klan of Gypsies.
My apologies go out to any Good Spanish citzens of Gypsie decent who are good working, honest Christians.

What is the Spanish Government doing about these Gypsies who are dealing drugs and harrasing and stealing from tourists??

Tejano -

The Spanish government will probably do what the US government does about those "who are dealing drugs and harrasing and stealing from tourists" - only what the law permits AFTER they catch them (which is the REAL difficulty)

Being from Texas, Tejano, you probably have heard something about all the tourist murders in south Florida, specifically Miami. These criminals were actually following unsuspecting tourists from the airport rental car counters!!

I am in no way condoning these criminal acts, but it's a rather big expectation to think a "solution" can be provided by the government, either here or in Spain.

Regardless of ethnicity or country of origin, todays criminals seem to display the prevalence of "Me, me, ME!" - it's all about the individual, and not about society as a whole. I hate to climb up onto a soapbox, but I feel that a good place to start is in the home. What happened to parents teaching children the value of human life and the value of respecting others? How's about throwing in a few of the Big 10 ("Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not covet...etc.)(I am by no means an overly religious person, BTW - don't even make it to church half the time!) These things CAN'T be taught in schools, mainly because of the separation of church and state. (Anything remotely resembling anything religious automatically get's banned from the educational system.) Parent's DON'T WANT their children disciplined in schools - but they don't want to do it themselves either.

So, I guess that until everyone can respect and appreciate each other, violent crimes are going to exist. And, unfortunately, the tourist is more often than not the easy prey.

Pookita (who suddenly got a shot of that same passion that spurs Ignacio on in his posts)

Toddy, all,

I don't believe Ignacio was offering a racist point of view. Not based on his previous posts.

I think there's a difference between racism, and guarded perceptions of people. In the case of the Gypsies, it's guarded perceptions that Ignacio is expressing, based on the historical fact that those gypsies that you see in public places, who don't seem to be gainfully employed, are very possibly willing to pick your pocket, mug you, or kill you, for your possessions.

At that point, caution, and staying within your personal comfort zone is essential.

There have been stories (true I might add), about well meaning people who have done good things for gypsies, and ended up with their throats cut from ear to ear, when all that they offered, and gave over a prolonged period of time, wasn't enough... because they didn't offer their wedding rings, and the retirement watch the man was carrying as a "gift."

Does this speak for all gypsies? Of course not! But, as a person who wants to live to see tomorrow, explain to us how you can take the risk of being too open towards a populace that has proven to have an enormous number of it's members proven to be a serious threat to yourself and others?

If I was a Spaniard, and was raising children in Spain, I'm afraid my first priority would be to protect those children, not prove how "generously non-biased" I was.

As a threat to people, the gypsy is the strongest threat to tourists. Their organized approach to street crime makes tourists (even in larger groups) easy marks.

As for the the question of where gypsies come from, it's amazing how many possibilities. There's even some people that believe they are one of the "Lost tribes of Israel," and therefore may well be of Jewish heritage. I have no idea what is true. But I do know, "Being an American in Spain," would make me very cautious of gypsies, and their hangouts...

Wolf (Was that a good save on staying on topic MadridMan? )

Wolf, you made a very good comment and point.

Pookita, the murders that occured in Miami a long time ago, do NOT happen very often.
The US has 280 plus Million People living in this country, where Spain has 39 Million.
Which means that murders or assaults against tourists coming to the US are relatively low.
That doesn't mean that here in the US we don't have crime, we do, lots of it. But not so much against the tourist industry. But I guess I really can't say much more until I get to visit Spain this November. Then I'll really see how dangerous Gypsies are towards tourists.

Wolf,
I never said anything about racism.
However, when I'm in Spain, I think there are many "groups" that I, as a tourist, could be afraid of. From drunk "pure bread" lite, medium, and dark hooligan Spaniards to recent illegal immigrants. I could be afraid of a group of Basques, a group of Catalans, a group of anarchists, a group of fasicts, a group of communists, or even a group of socialists. I could find A LOT of reading material that would lead me to "protect" my family from such "terrible" groups. This type of argument leads to nobody because IT INVOLVES EVERBODY.

I cannot change deeply prejudiced minds, but I cannot only hope that more Spanish contact with the outside world in their own country, will force them to confront their own incredible prejudices. Maybe, very soon every Spanish town will be able to have a real African play one of the los tres reyes magos. Then, possibly they will see not only the opposite side of the minorities in their country, but also the other dark part of themselves.

Tough and hurtful I know, but greatly needed!

Toddy,

I didn't say you did. I'm just indicating there's a difference between racism and perceptions. That people often have a tendency to substitute one for the other in their interpretations of what people say.

Wolf

About the "Gypsies"-

Recent DNA and genetic studies have shown that the Rome (or'Gypsy')originated in India and Central Asia. It is suspected that they began migrating west in 500-1000AD due to war and instability in that region.

When the Roma began travelling into South eastern Europe, Many inhabitants there were decendants of the Romans. The only people they had encountered with similiar dark skin and hair were Egyptians. Thus, the Roma were pegged as Egyptian, too. This is the origin of the "Gypsy" name.

Gypsys have retained their culture and lifestyle, and have thus been branded and despised as foriegners and outsiders in their own countries. Besides the Jews, the only other ethnic group targeted for extermination by the Nazis were the Roma. National Geographic did an excellent piece about the history and plight of the Roma through Europe and Middle East a few months back. I reccomend it for anyone wishing to know more about these people.

Tejano:

Yes, gypsy translation is gitano.
About what the government can do, I mainly agree with Pookita: As there is not (and there musn't be) a racist police policy, those involved in crimes are treated like any other criminal group, when they're caught. Unfortunately, spanish laws are weak with criminals, and there are all kind of redemptions and amnesties thet reduce many times in two thirds or more the penalties. So, we will have to cope with it until they slowly integrate or people gets fed up, pushing the parliament for stricter laws. A lot of this 'generous' attitude the law and the government have, is due to the high cost of imprisonment we have to pay.

Thanks Wolf!

Of course, I mentioned a lot of times, I (we) respect those who work for their living, so it is not a racial matter, as you very well said.

Again, Tejano:

You are very right about the difference being the percentage of the crime rate. If you separate Miami, New York, LA, S.Francisco, Gary (Indiana), we could probably say the USA is a reasonably safe country considering the crime rate and its population. The same applies to crime commited by gypsies and the rest of spanish.

Toddy:

I tend to believe the usual protective instinct we have uses to be applied to the risks we face. It would be unreasonable to worry about your kids being involved in figths with the Guerilla in Spain, mainly for there is no Guerrilla here, but it would be reasonable in Colombia. Here, the main danger our kids have to be slabbed are non-integrated gypsies, and that is what we care about.

About the black king in the parades, it was the officialsof the Town Council who decided it should be a white person disguised as a black one, and it was the Media and the people who asked for a black person being Baltasar King.

Kurt:

Thank you for your info. I hadn't related 'gypsy' and 'egypt'. In Spanish, it's rather different: 'gitano' and 'Egipto'.

Romania is called so, after Rome, they always felt they were citizens of the Roman Empire, the name emphasizes it. In Spain, I hear the cultured gypsies call themselves 'Romaní', others call themselves 'Calé' or 'Caló'.

Nobody objects to their traditions, but behaviours that could be admmittable in the 14th century are no longer accepted in the modern society, like selecting a husband aginst the will of son & daughter (they still do, in some clans). Again, most of spaniards don't care about that (unfortunately, because we should be helping enhace gypsy women'status), mainly becuase it does NOT affect us. We care for our safety and our goods'.

Yes, they were the only other ETHNIC group ( they exterminated also some other non-ethnic groups) the nazis exterminated, which is terrible, because nobody has the right to exterminate a race, thus becoming a god-like judge, but that they were victims at that time doesn't give the many who are a nuisance for our society a stealing or assaulting autorization.

And, although I mean (Toddy, read this) THAT THEY SHOULDN'T BE OR HAVE BEEN ILL TREATED IN ANY SENSE AS A RACE, there was a resentment in the German (not only Nazi) society against them, which was used by Nazis as an excuse for their slaughter- guess why. I'll give you a clue ... ¿Being anti-social? ¿Stealing? ¿Slabbing?

Ignacio

My Sep 4 post on this forum attributed the increase in violent crime to 'illegals' and drugs. I didn't even mention Gypsies! Any experience I had with those people indicated to me that they will cheat you and pick your pockets, but they generally abhor violence except perhaps among themselves.

Illegals from North Africa (Morocco, Algeria etc.) are a big problem for Guardia Civil and Spanish Immigration authorities. There are also many from former Eastern European countries (Albania, Romania, etc.) pushing prostitution and hard drugs and the violence that goes along with them.

Sometimes one must admire the Romani for how slick they can be in 'ripping off' a mark: selling fake Rolex watches, gold and diamond jewelry, and all kinds of other stuff. The raza Calé is more likely to try to pick your pockets or steal your 'socks.'

Can we get this forum back to 'Being an American in Spain' please?

Thank you Ingnacio,
I appreciate your willingness you assess the plight of the modern gitano in Spain. \

Always remember, that my French friends think that all Spaniards are just Africans in disguise; lazy, dark, a lot of hair, working for a foreign company, and drunk.

Since I have been to Spain,

I know that this IS NOT TRUE!!

Spain is much more than a cheap holiday.
I believe, as an American, we can gain a lot from a closer relationship and realize the other part of the Unites States' roots. I hope, Ignacio, that you understand that we WANT TO BE YOUR FRIEND.
Don't every forget that and always remember that.
We CAN be the best of friends!

hmm. toddy, you have such and interesting way of phrasing things. It never ceases to leave me shaking my head in dismay...

Interesting perception on the part of your French friends, who have a 35 hour work week and are fairly adept at throwing back the drinks. In fact, I have never had navigate through as many piles of alcohol-induced vomit on the streets as I did when I lived in Rennes.

Interestingly enough, as a job placement officer in kansas city, the African clients were our dream come true, many successfully holding down as many as three jobs (one full time, two part-time). And, out of the Sudanese, togolese, Nigerian, Eritrian, Ethiopian and Somali clients, I only met one who wasn't vehemently opposed to drinking alcohol - muslims and christians included. Now, the folks from the former Yugoslavia were a different story altogether. just my experience

[ 09-06-2001: Message edited by: Nicole ]

Gosh Toddy, that is some kind of comment of never heard from other Europeans. Usually Spaniards are known for being Romantic, good looking, (specially women), and for their cool lifesyles. However, this doesn't apply to all Spaniards. Spain is very Diverse.

Agree with you Nicole, Toddy cracks me up sometimes.

Ignacio, no te apures, dale duro.

Hi all,

What Toddy refers to, are stereotypes that he may have heard being ABROAD. I am speaking of what I see (or suffer here).

It is not that I say it, you can do a search, and see what AMERICANS say of their holidays and problems with gypsies. For example you can look for 'slab', or 'pickpocket', or 'harassment', or muggins', and THEN, YOU tell me which percentage was committed by spanish non-gypsies, and which is caused by Northern African, Gypsies, and Latin Americans.

And, again, I know many L.Am. and some Africans (including people from Marocco, Nigeria and Guinea) who live & work honestly, and I am pretty sure that gypsies like Rosario Flores (singer), the congressman who is (or used to be gypsy, I don't know if he has been elected again), the banker Arturo Romaní, and many others have nothing to do with violence or pickpocketing.

The problem is that, the non-integrated, living with their nomad lifestyle, do not respect the modern society basic rules such as property and law respect.

About the inmigrants, I don't think it is bad that they come, I only wished the inmigration policy would prevent us from having a percentage of their honest working people and a lot of their pickpockets and robbers, who find in this unprepared european-style peaceful country an El Dorado for their bussiness.

Toddy, I am sure you want to be our friend, but you are so good concealing it ...

Ignacio

Hey,, I have just read a post by Sofianito in 'Classifieds' in the thread 'Meeting people in Madrid', where he says: 'trabajo mucho ahora, aqui trabajan mas que en paris, [censored]!!!'



Ignacio

[ 09-08-2001: Message edited by: MadridMan ]

Nicole, as an employer, over 30 years, in 4 different countries, my experience with employees originating from African continent, is quite different from yours.

well, I think it is fabulous that there are two such experienced and educated opinions on the board to give information. Isn't terrible when things are one sided? That's the nice thing about our little group.

Ignacio,
Maybe it's hard for you to understand friendship because you can dish out constantly your perceptual American flaws, but you just can't take Spain's.

And by the way, there are roving bands of SPANIARDS that steal, deal drugs, and even steal.

Sorry, but my French friends really do believe that Spaniards are lazy, uneducated, hot-headed, violent, perverse, and bunch of, and I am quoting, "African drunks."

My point in relaying this perception is not only is it not true but how does it feel Ignacio to be judged in such a negative way.

I wonder how the gypsy feels?

Think about it.

Toddy,

Do we know each others? because you seem to know me really well to spak on wether I understand friendship or not. Let it to the persons who know me to decide.

I can take your supposed friends' opinion on Spain, I can't remember saying they were not entitled to have it, so don't say I can't take comments on Spain, I do, I did.

I don´t think I was dishing out any american flaw. Fellow members know it.

I did't say that there are not spaniards that rob and steal, ..., these are the non-integrated spanish gypsies .

No, seriously, there are some others, but the percentage is really low.

About gypsies feelings, if you refer to non integrated ones, they know they are acting against law, and that makes them unpopular. But, as others said in the forum before, about that, we can only guess, cause we aren't

Ignacio