Smoking

What is the smoking like in Madrid and the rest of Spain? My wife is very bothered by smoke. Will we find many smokers in restaurants and tapas bars?

Hi dewey,
It's been 3 years since the last time I was in Spain, but one of the things I remember most is the fact that everyone smoked over there!!! O.k., that is quite an exaggeration, but the truth is, if it is still the same as it was three years ago, smokers are everywhere. My friend just came back from Europe and went to Madrid and Barcelona... the two things she noticed were:
1) EVERYONE and their mother has a cellphone.
2) There are a lot of smokers!
As far as I know, there are no laws against smoking in restaurants in Spain (which is the case here in Toronto), so the best bet for you and your wife would be to eat outside in the patios. At least then you will have some fresh air circulating!

Yes your wife probably will be bothered by smoke. The only restaurants which totally ban smoking are healthy vegetarian ones. You may find no smoking areas in bigger restaurants, but in smaller traditional bars and restaurants, probably not. If you want to enjoy the "real" Spain you'll most likely have to accept it warts, smoke, and all. Or stick to outdoor terrazas.

From what I understand, the majority of Spaniards still smoke. In fact, the last time we flew by Iberia, to Madrid, from Chicago, there was still a smoking section on the plane. Whether or not that has changed, I don't know, but I do know there are very few places where second hand smoke isn't around. In fact, those restaurants that we found, that had non-smoking sections, actually did very little to ventilate the smoking area... as opposed to what is done in the US. The sections were more of a courtesy than a reality, and on one occasion, when the smoking area had been filled, and there were vacant seats in the non-smoking area, they allowed smokers into the forbidden area, where they puffed away.

Basically the same thing applies on public transportation, like buses, where smokers take up the majority of the space. You'll also run into cabbies who smoke as well.

If you're looking for a smoke free environment, it's certainly not Spain.

Wolf (Still trying to kick the habit, won't smoke in the house.)

Just a quick addendum. Smoking is now forbidden on all transport – from planes to metro to busses – it is still permitted in one or two carriages on trains. It is forbidden in all public buildings as well, and in a month or so will be forbidden in the work place (impossible to enforce, I should add) It isn't allowed in taxi's either, but if you are a smoker you can ask for permission. If the driver's a smoker, he'll be relieved that he can light up too...

I would say that 40-50% of people in Spain smoke. You can't in buses, planes, etc. A new law is being proposed for all offices. As for bars and restaurants, some have non smoking sections.

All in all it's like 1982 or something.

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: Antonio ]

I remember once in Barajas (Madrid Airport) this American woman was complaining about Spain and saying that she was tired of smokers and bla, bla, bla... she was going way to far giving her opinion about "those bastard Spanish smokers" who were spoiling her health. One Spaniard there, told her that if she didn't like smokers not to come back to their country and that it was more unhealthy to weight 300 kilos and eat like a pig (she was a VERY heavy American woman)
So, if she really gets bother by smoke she will have a hard time in Spain, but please don't complain in front of Spaniards, because some of them speak English.

Agree, your wife is going to have a hard time in all of Europe if she is a smoke hater. Frankly, in most parts of the world. Americans seem to be the only people that can get away with being rude to smokers. I have an Uncle that is embarrassing he is so vocal about smokers when he goes to a restaurant. When we were in Madrid last month, I found that only vegetarian restaurants have a petite non smoking section. I beleive that one of the vegetarian restaurants, near the Puerta del sol, someone out there knows the name, is entirely non smoking.

As for restaurants, the law says those bigger than 20 tables must have a separate non-smoking section. Otherwise, it's up to the restaurant owner to let people smoke or not.

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: Antonio ]

Hi dewey! I moved your topic here to the "About Spain" forum since it seemed more of a cultural issue than about restaurants/bars (even though the two are completely related).

I was (or actually, wasn't really too..) surprised to see this topic take off as it has with already 8 replies since your original posting earlier this morning. It's a passionate topic for most people either for or against.

Smoking in Spain doesn't really bother me all that much, but probably because my ladyfriend (from Madrid) is a smoker too - not a chain smoker, but of the 5-7 daily variety. I used to be a headstrong ANTI-smoker (I don't and never smoked myself -- I taste better "cured" than "smoked" anyway. Haahahaha..), but found that only made for problems with the people/persons I loved dearly (mainly Spaniards).

I believe there was a thread here a LONG time ago about a friend of a friend, an "American", who went to restaurant in Spain and they threw one of those fake "coughing fits + nasty stare" deals to get the smoker next to her/him to realize their smoke was a bother and to quit, but that smoker gave her/him a "are you a nut?!" look back.

I've often said to people that when they go to Spain to keep their minds open and not be judgemental as all cultures are different, have different views, and perceive things different, standards, etc.. To realize that we're all different, not one better or worse than another, not more or less advanced, no more or less moral, and, well, just different. I just love that we are different. How boring it would be if all other countries/cultures were JUST like my own.

Wow. I've written entirely too much on this cultural issue and I'm not at all pro-smoking (more to the contrary), but have learned to be, well, tolerant or understanding or flexible. We all have our own values and things that make us comfortable. I've said enough. Now for a cup of caffeine-rich coffee.

Saludos, MadridMan

I just had to respond to MM, as I have now become a member I see!!! I couldnt' agree with you more. I always ask for a non smoking table myself. For some reason when visiting foreign countries, I don't feel the need to be judgemental and I want to see the culture the way the people live it, and try not impose my American ways. We Americans are very demanding, if we don't get our way, we sue. The rest of the world doesn't and it's a refreshing change for me.

I tend to be bothered by smoke too, but I try my hardest not to let it interfere with my enjoyment of Spanish restaurants and bars. They are smoky, and I don't like having the smell of smoke in my hair and clothes (not to mention the horrid things it does to our lungs!), but I understand that it is inevitable.

I figure a couple of weeks of secondhand smoke is a small price to pay for the pleasures of Spain, and I have found a few ways to deal with it. During summer months, plan on sitting outside where that's offered...for me, it's worth the few extra pesetas to have better circulation. Take showers at night after being out in smoky places, and don't leave clothes you want to wear again in a heap on the floor--hang them up so that they can air out somewhat. Bring along eye drops, particularly if you wear contact lenses. We contact wearers are spoiled by clean-air American restaurants. My lenses get REALLY dry when there's smoke in the air. If you're cooped up in a smoky place for a while, step outside to get a little fresh air and clear the fog from your head. If you can make space in your luggage, pack your own pillow--some of the ones in hotels in Spain smell smoky too. And if you plan on getting intimately close to a smoker, share Altoids!

Above all, recognize (as others have said) that our American sense of entitlement to smoke-free air is NOT a worldwide view, and you'll only come across as boorish if you try to stare down or criticize a smoker. I dated a Spanish smoker while living in Salamanca, and although he knew full well that smoking was bad for him, he always said, "hay que morirse de algo." That seems to be the prevailing attitude, and you're not going to change it in a single visit!!

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: taravb ]

Take along a bottle of Freebreeze and spray your clothes after being in a smokey restaurant - works wonders - and worth the extra weight in the suitcase

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: Puna ]

Hey Dewey,
I just got back from Spain on Monday. Let's say Phillip Morris will not be going out of business any time soon in Spain. We went to a dance club and had to wash our clothes because of the strong smoke odor. I also saw some people smoking in the non smoking designated areas of a restuarant. Your best bet is to eat in the out door cafes if it is not too hot. I guess if you no all this in advance you can prepare mentally. We had a great trip and we are non-smokers. Have a good trip

Wow. Thanks to everyone from my wife. She will be prepared to be tolerant and enjoy despite her dislike. The febreeze suggestion is a great one and we will take you all up on that. When we were in Mexico a couple of years ago, the kids on the beach all asked us for cigarettes. Too bad to have another generation harmed, but clearly it was cool to smoke as it was when we were kids. My wife smoked for years, remembers the pleasure, but now the smell is hard to take. Thanks again for all the suggestions on how to get around this and for sure we will be carefull not to insult.

Hi everyone,
Great Board! About the smoking, get over it! You are a guest in their country...so don't complain and if you don't like it leave. Anti-smoking in the U.S. has turned into fascism and it is really quite sad, considering how people eat here...how about taking on McDonald's? I have since quit smoking since going to Spain for four months last summer. That was the best time of my life. I have so many great memories to look back on. So go to spain, have a good time, and dont' complain. Thanks madridman for a great website

Brien

Hey Dewey-

I learned long ago to just 'go with the flow' with the smoking in Spain. It's EVERYWHERE! (As soon as you set foot in Barajas Airport you catch the smell!) Although it may be banned in public places, the last time I was there the man in the bank counting out my money had a cigarette hanging out of his mouth!!

I too am bothered by smoke, not necessarily by the smell, but I have bad sinuses and allergies. What I have learned to do is just get as much 'fresh' air as possible (3 of the 4 friends that I stay with smoke!) and to bring along a prescription of antibiotics since I always inevitably get a sinus infection while I'm there!!

As for the smell on your clothes, no one is going to notice it except you and maybe another American. Whenever I return from Spain, everything I brought with me has the 'Spain' smell as we call it now (Spanish-brand cigarette smell!) so the luggage gets emptied, clothes go in the wash, and the bags get hung & sprayed with Fabreeze as soon as I get home (no matter how tired I may be!)

And as someone else pointed out earlier, don't try the 'health conscious' spin with smoking if you're talking to a Spaniard, or any European. A friend of mine mentioned something about the health warnings on the cigarettes to some Italian friends of ours, and they just basically laughed in our faces. As with many other things, Americans are DEFINITELY more 'uptight' about smoking than other countries, whether that's good or bad...

These are just a couple of small compromises we have to make for having the pleasure of spending time in such a lovely, wonderful place!

Best of luck and have a great time!!

-GG

Yup, I've been here over a year and it annoys the hell out of me, but I've never said a word about it. Part of the trade off I guess.

Interesting that in Spain smoking among men is declining steeply while among women it is increasing.

Question....

Are Europeans dying of lung cancer as well? I'm thinking they must be but because of public health care they don't have to worry about it at all...madridman what do you think? Also, i have heard that the poor diets and stress of the U.S. is causing cancer rates to increase? Any thoughts?

The local guide we had for our tour of the Alhambra told me that Spain is trying to discourage smoking...as is the rest of the EU...but agrees with a previous post that the women are continuing to smoke while the men are starting to give it up. I have also read that the new cigarette packaging in Europe is to include photographs of diseased lungs and folks with holes in their necks in the hope of discouraging people. We discussed baby boomers in Spain and I asked if they had the same health concerns...including cancer...that we do. He said that basically, all of us boomers have similar thoughts on mortality, but pointed out that we only become financial burdens on our families if we go to a doctor and attempt to get treated! If we get sick and die, then we don't accrue huge medical bills!

For what it's worth, smoking is relative. I used to think that people in Spain and France smoked incessantly and I was bothered by every little wisp of smoke that came my way. I spent some time in Kosovo in April and let me tell you...THEY SMOKE!!! There were non-smoking areas in Spain! In Kosovo I often had trouble just walking into a restaurant because the smoke was so thick I couldn't see a foot in front of me! There are no restrictions on smoking ANYWHERE. Teachers and students smoke in class, shoppers smoke freely in stores...even stores you might consider risky to smoke in, like book stores! I had to leave my suitcases outside for a week to air them out! As I said, it is really all relative! Smoking bothers me, but it is not as bad in Spain as it COULD be!

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: la maestra ]

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: la maestra ]

The smoking related illnesses I observed in Spain were an alarming number of older men who had apparently had throat cancer - they had the little things in their throat, and had trouble talking, having had much of the voice box removed. I am not sure how correct I am on that - never really wanted to go up to a stranger and ask them "what happened?!" People told me that the dark tobacco smoked in Spain affects your throat more than your lungs, and that is the reason for so many instanced of throat cancer.

anyone know if that is true?

How about those DUCADOS? I smoked one about 5 years ago in Spain, and let me tell you, I thought I was going to die right there! I smoke socially, but those cigarettes are pure, NASTY tobacco! To all those light smokers who are looking for an incentive to quit - here it is! Smoke a pack of Ducados and it will surely make you feel like quitting for good!

SusiLaGallega

Suzi,

I tried Ducados in 1996 while in Spain. I think the liberal translation for them into English is "camel dung."

Wolf (Who was nearly trampled to death when he tried to light up a camel, and couldn't figure which end of the beast you were supposed to hold onto while doing it.)

Ducados are crap! I know what you all are saying. I smoked Fortuna Lights. I thought how bad can a ducado be...try one and find out why they are so cheap!

I think Ducados are so cheap because they are locally grown (aren't they? Canary Islands, maybe??).

VERY unfortunately for me, my ladyfriend has been a smoker of Ducados since she was, like, 16 (now 40 years old). She knows how much I hate it and, at my firm request, doesn't smoke in my apartment or car. Luckily (if there CAN be a positive side to this), she only smokes maybe 5-8 per day (less these two years she has been in the US because of the restrictions, but returning to Madrid in August). She even gave up smoking for 1 year towards the beginning of our relationship because of the ultimatum I gave her. I just couldn't see myself living with or loving a smoker. Well, as I said, she gave it up for a year, but went back to it and that's when I had to make some serious decisions; live with the smoke or lose the woman I love dearly? Decision made - even at the risk to my own health. But in the end, it will likely be the smoking that divides us when she dies of cancer. She says she's prepared for that. But of course, I am not.

I really need to stop working and check this forum more.

Anyone who would like to attend anti-smoking rally this September at Valle de los Caídos (with all the other anti-smoking fascists) is welcome. If you want to come, Brien, you'll need to leave your Fortunas at home. :p

Ducados are crap, yes, but they are not the worst in Spain: See "Celtas", which, loosely translated means "'tis better to inhale sheep methane". Incidentally the mascot for Celtas is also synonymous with "football club from Vigo which exhibits qualities similar to the smell of sheep methane".

The last time I checked, Celtas were a duro cheaper than the "notebook paper and yard grass" packaged under the "Ducados" pseudonym. Makes me glad to be able to breathe the clean Los Angeles air on a daily basis...my lung cancer comes to me free of charge!

Egads - go to Hungary - they have some product marketed as cigarettes there called Symphonia... the novel 1984 and Victory cigs come to mind... though Ducados and the Caporals from France are close.

i have to say that in reading brien´s response i´m really in agreement with him (and laughed myself silly sitting here reading your responses brien). smoking is still huge in spain, enough so that you don´t have to smoke if you´re a smoker, you can just walk around smelling the air. people smoke everywhere here, even in the metro, on buses, etc., but they also eat a lot of crap (i´m sorry, but frying everything, even in olive oil, is really not all that healthy either and you´d think fatty meat grew on trees here, its like a sidedish of it comes with everything) and just about burst their eardrums with all the ruido they make. You´ll just have to learn how to take it for what it is, just as they would in our country. Incessant, overzealous smoking IS bad, but so are incessantly overzealous non-smokers.

At least we don't worry ourselves to death about what we eat. Hmm...healthy Mediterranean diet is the oft used phrase that springs to mind....but that must be wrong then, is it?

Anchovy (a.k.a. Crap Eater, who incidentalkly used to smoke 40 plus smuggled Marlboros a day until he stopped overnight three and a half years ago and now wears a halo instead)

Sheba,

I like your attitude and thanks for the compliment about my messages...I really appreciate it. I'm not sure if i have any more comments about smoking....well i always do but i think i will move on to another topic!

I'm still back at the healthy air in LA!! Is that before or after the smog burns off? You are correct Cali, which is worse?? Do we work on the pollution or the cigarette smokers? I guess both go back to corporate America.

[ 06-21-2001: Message edited by: Nic ]

"I didn't inhale..."

I was traveling through Chino, California [cattle country] last evening and had a huge WHIFF of deja vu: I remember living in Bilbao in the late 80s and remarking that there seemed to be an aroma around every corner. Add that to the endless supply of Ducados, Celtas and other pseudo-cigs and you have the makings for quite a methane-mix madness.

If you've been to Madrid on the lower metro lines (5-10), you know the smell....mmmm...

I went to madrid last fall and definitely noticed the smoke, as a non-smoker. It hits you hard as soon as you step off the plane. My clothes had the "spain smell" when I got home, but by that time I was really missing spain, and made my friends go to a spanish restaurant the very next day. (Arco de Cuchilleros on Halsted Street, for those in the Chicago area - good paella) I MADE us all sit in the smoking section so that I could reminisce! I actually got nostalgic about the cigarette smoke, it reminded me of being in Spain! a little goofy, I know...

Smoking is everywhere in Spain. I think everyone has made that point clear. What's amazing is how there are still very few places you can't smoke in Spain. It's also not something that is enforced even if it isnt' allowed in some places. I'll never forget my last trip when as soon as I stepped into the terminal, the man next to me lit up.
Also, it is interesting to note that you can also smoke in the hallways of the Reina Sofia. Oh yes and also in Hospital waiting rooms. That one was unexpected.

Ah, yes, no flash photography, but feel free to smoke as many Ducados or Fortunas as your (struggling) heart wishes!!!

Gotta love it!!

That reminds me of a couple of mostly-empty churches where guards, in sneaky whispers, told my husband and me that we could take photos, even with flash, if we wanted. One was so cute...pointing out things to photograph and standing guard near the door to let us know if anyone was coming. He kept putting an arm around me and my husband, ushering us to a new spot. And all the while grinning like a teenager sneaking a puff behind the gym.

Hi!

Well, I'm a spaniard and I hate smoke :-(

Some of my friends smoke, I don't mind if they do it in an opend place, but I ask them to smoke less if the place is closed (the same right not to smoke than to smoke).

When I was in the US I was really annoyed on how extremist had become the anti-tobacco feelings. You even have "free drugs areas" (where noone can smoke, even in the streets). That is very shocking from a spanish point of view.

You can always ask a spaniard calmly not to smoke if you are in a very close room and he will probably cease to smoke. Otherwise, if you do it vehemently he will just laugh at you and continue to smoke. That's because we are not used to those restrictions.

If you hate tobacco smoke don't try discos, they are not as well ventilated and the smoke concentrates in great amounts. I can't stand it, so I go outside frequently to breath some fresh air...

Anyway, be "tolerant" with the smoke in Spain, we just don't see it the same way as you.

I don't smoke. I don't drink coffee. Except in Spain.

Spain is the only place I encounter that magic combination of a fine cuban cigar, an exceptional cup of coffee and a magnificent brandy. Elsewhere you might find one, or even two of those essential ingredients for an after-dinner indulgence. But not having all three is insufficient.

Lacking any one makes it easy not to smoke, or drink coffee, or have an after-dinner brandy. Or to do any of those unhealthy, un-American things.

But in Spain, where it all can come together, why not enjoy and go with the flow?
Cantabene

Cali,

Why in the world would anyone ride past Chino? It's like taking a ride near the gates of hell with bald tires, and no spare. God only knows what kind of help you'll get, and the only phone available is behind that doggone gate...

I'd rather take an August vacation and spend it in Death Valley divining for water

Wolf (Who hopes nobody from Chino is on this board. They couldn't be, they ain't got phones or electricity yet. )

I fully agree with you Cantabene. What's life without samll pleasures?.Even though I dont' smoke, I fully suscribe the hedonistic view on coffe and brandy as the perfect opening for conversation after a meal. In fact they complete the lunch experience (if it deserves it).

Life is finding balances between this and the other. And you are supposed to know what you are doing; generally speaking, a couple of coffes a day won't harm, 10 may shorten your life...

I too am a non-smoker who prefers not be saturated w/ the stuff. After spending 2 weeks in Spain I was pleasently surprised that the smoking thing was not excessive. I'd often look around while sitting in a cafe and did not see anyone smoking. There were no smoking signs in some stores and we went to Joy Eslava disco and found their ventilation as good or better than lots of places in the US

No, smoking is not universal. I do not normally smoke, but sometimes I yield to local tradition and go with the flow.

This time it was to light up a puro at the bullfight. The fight was after the season, and attended less by tourists than by natives. Upon lighting up I got a terrifically dirty look from a lady nearby.

Since she was downwind of me, I extinguished my cigar and contented myself with enjoying the small paper cup of brandy I had obtained from a vendor. In a way I was happy to see that some Spaniards not only did not smoke but objected to others smoking in their presence.

I had feared that one day every Spaniard in Madrid would--as a result of the combined effects of air pollution and smoking-end their existence in one enormous pandemic of emphysema.

I was pleased to have been proved wrong.
Cantabene

[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: cantabene ]

Wolf- Unfortunately, the only phone behind "the gate" is the one inside the California Institution for Men. I'll be thanking you to limit your comments on Chino. I've been to Rockford, you know... :p

Since I started this thread so many weeks ago, I thought it would be useful to add my own perspective on the issue after having enjoyed 24 days in Spain.
First, my wife Elizabeth and I were quite comfortable. From some of the posted responses, we got practical answers to our question, and that helped Elizabeth form a mindset so that what smoking we encountered rarely bothered her.
I was actually very surprised and relieved at how less invasive the smells of smoke are now than they were when I was in Spain last. I had lived in Spain 30 odd years ago, and what I feared for my Tobacco sensitive wife was those overwhelming smells of the strong tobacco of the old Spanish men who rolled their own in the late 60‘s, the smells that caused my first wife to vomit her dinner across the cement platform of the Madrid Metro when she was newly pregnant with my first son. Most of that strong tobacco is gone, and, sadly, so are those old Spanish men. What I found instead was the smoking of American tobacco about on the same level as what I remembered in the USA when I was a kid in the 50’s.
That being said, younger travelers should take into account our ages and our preferences for daytime travels and visits rather than the late evening bar scenes or discos. If you are young and bothered by smoke, I expect packed, late night party places would be more of a difficulty than our itinerary.
Our first night in Madrid (when we stayed out our latest) we did leave Cuevas de Champinones when the smoke thickened in one very small room, but not until we had gathered all the details from our neighbors, a smoking young man and woman from Valencia who were in Madrid to attend the next day’s wedding of his cousin in the cathedral along side The Palacio Real. Then we wandered down the street to see a Flamenco show with very little smoke, and ended the night in Las Cuevas de Guitarra, the atmosphere of which was packed with the songs of colorfully outfitted Spanish student singers, but not with enough smoke to spoil the fine flavor of chorizo frito.
Smoking did not affect our time in Toledo, Segovia, El Escorial, our last two weeks in spent in Loredo or time wandering other small Northern beaches, the Basque country, Santander. It did not seem to bother us much.
The other issues raised in the outpouring of board emotion since my first post are separate from that original, practical issue of whether an American non smoker might feel comfortable touring in Spain, and I would suggest that the complexity in the board’s search for a satisfying answer is reflected in the fact that Elizabeth and I have now made our long journey, come back home, and still find the post alive with comment. Another post on whether meals of wild boar in El Pardo was still available had a much shorter lifespan as did a post on the award winning Goya film in the media section.
On the issue of whether smoking is a good thing for people, the evidence seems clear in this generation. It was still being denied when I was young. Now we know that of all the possible preventative health changes we can make, including changes in exercise and diet, reducing first hand smoke is statistically the FIRST most effect step we can take toward preventing disease, and statistically the THIRD most effective step we can take is reducing second hand smoke. This latter seems to make the analogous arguments to brandy or rich food far too simplistic. Someone’s Torres 10 does not effect my health the way their tobacco smoke does. And tobacco, unlike food or alcohol, has not been shown to have any redeeming qualities, except those false romantic ones so encouraged, in most cases invented, by the tobacco industry in order to make money.
On the issue of whether individual American travelers should have the right to have anything to say to their Spanish hosts on smoking, thread arguments also seem at times rather simplistic, and in some cases incredibly naive. The smoking habits of the Spanish are a result of American influence on their culture. Tobacco did not originate in Spain, and current smoking habits in Spain are fostered by a large American tobacco industry which is losing its historical right to easily addict American people and so spending more and more time addicting the youth in foreign countries. As American tax payers and stock holders, we are already pushing tobacco values on Spanish people. The Marboro Cowboy is not a Matador.
Analogous arguments to fine drink are again heavy in irony. How much finer a thing it is for Spain to produce and export to the USA their vino tinto, a daily glass of which might well extend our longevity, than for the USA to export American cigarettes, a clear killer with no medicinal use. Perhaps we should feel less individual shame at speaking out against cigarettes, and more national shame at killing for money.
But then I come from a very different generation. Thirty odd years ago when I was young and crazy sixties kids hit the highways of an isolated and repressed Spanish culture with our long hair, tattered blue jeans, flower shirts and liberal values, we were not too sensitive to the shock that might have on our hosts. And that experience tells me not to underestimate the Spanish ability to be tolerant and welcome new thoughts, even those very different from whatever is current practice. We were not judged in those days, but tolerated and often enjoyed, sometimes as outrageous jokes, and other times as great party companions. Certainly the American girls were fully enjoyed when they welcomed the traditionally aggressive advances of Spanish boys, as shocking as their sexual liberation was to the Spanish of that time. If we wanted judgement in those days, we could visit Germany. Spain was very “cool.”
Now those Spanish boys are gone. My Madrid born friend tells me many of the topless girls I saw on Northern beaches pursue the boys now, and in his slightly disapproving tone, I suspect he is a bit envious and wishes he were young again and in the new Spain. In thirty years, Spain has changed more than I could ever have imagined. To have known it thirty years ago and to have not seen it until this month was a Rip Van Winkle like surprise and shock. Most of the change is influence from outside what was then traditional Spanish culture.
The traveler’s issue of how much to be a quiet observer and how much to share personal value is complex and difficult for all people, and especially for Americans. There is no easy answer to the smoking question in Spain, women’s rights in Afghanistan, who controls the rain forest in South America, and no easy answers here in the USA either as the invasion of Hispanic people and culture again affects our own values, politics and culture.
From my perspective, I find that being sincerely friendly and respectfully good humored has always enabled me to say critical and even outrageous things and still be accepted.
Sure is nice to be alive still to see, taste and experience it all.
And what an amazing miracle these boards are to enable such cross cultural and cross generational communication. Thanks again Madrid man for such incredible luxury. Elizabeth and I will share pieces of our trip in other more practical posts.

Elizabeth's PS:

Just a quick note from the smoke sensitive wife, Elizabeth. One of our guide books described the Spanish people as outgoing and always looking to be together for fun and conversation. We saw this and while the smoke was not so obnoxious as to be bothersome, it bothered me to think about these beautiful, expressive young people with illness caused by cigarettes when they reached their sixties and seventies. One way the older Spanish seem to maintain their health and vitality is through walking. We spent one evening dining with a wonderfully vibrant 94 year old Madrid native, who was not a smoker, but she was a great walker. I agree with my husband that we want to let the world know of the dangers of smoking, while learning from all cultures their particular joys in life and secrets to keeping their health in old age.

Dewey says:
"Tobacco did not originate in Spain, and current smoking habits in Spain are fostered by a large American tobacco industry which is losing its historical right to easily addict American people and so spending more and more time addicting the youth in foreign countries. As American tax payers and stock holders, we are already pushing tobacco values on Spanish people."

I too lived in Spain in the 60s. At that time, and I don't know if it is true today,
the importation and sale of tobacco was a monopoly of the Spanish government.

You could buy American cigarettes, but their cost was always much higher than that of the domestic products. I recall that many of the most enthusiastic smokers smoked the less expensive "Ducados"--very potent, with a distinctive aroma that identified them immediately to anyone unfortunate enough to get caught downwind of someone smoking them.

If you ate in a fine restaurant that offered a selection of cigars at the end of the meal, there was invariably a box of diminutive cigars for the ladies--who sometimes smoked them. Of course, Spain's one-time possession, Cuba, remained a principal supplier of cigars.

Even before the 60s, when American influence on Spain was tiny in comparison with what it is today, smoking had long been ingrained in the Spanish cutlure. Lighting up seemed almost a coming-of-age thing for Spanish males.

Spain certainly didn't need the USA to provide it's people with with their smoking habits.
Cantabene

[ 08-04-2001: Message edited by: cantabene ]

Hey all you non-smokers! Come visit Ottawa, Canada. Last week a non-smoking by-law came into effect. The city is now officially considered smoke free in all public places. This includes: pubs, bars, clubs, restaurants, bingo halls, bowling alleys, shopping centres etc... Perhaps this trend will catch on in other places. I must admit that we found smoking in Spain to be more popular that other regions of Europe. And I can't stand the smell of European cigarettes.

Can14, that's what we've had here for some time! We have some bars that tried to skirt the issue claiming they are "clubs"! It is illegal here for parents who smoke to even carry cigarettes in their PURSES onto a school campus! That's not general policy, is it?

Although I agree that smoking is a serious health problem, I wonder just how far people can go in supressing the rights of others. The whole concept of what a public place is has evolved into areas like parks, and onto streets, in some areas.

After cigarettes are totally banned, what will come next? Crosses & crucifixes? After all, they can "poison" minds, making people think about religious aspects of life. How about taking away the rights of women to wear perfume? I personally find some of the smells nauseating. After that, why not ban bald headed men from being out in public? They can send a bad message to youngsters, making them feel self conscious. Hey! What about people who have health problems? We don't want all those "crips" running around making us feel uncomfortable in public do we? Then... let's tell people that we don't want to see them out in public with children under ten years of age. They can be so unruly at a younger age, and a shriek in a restaurant... or in a store... so uncouth!

Yes! Let's continue to take away civil liberties. Someday we may be able to say we are the "models of perfection." Anyway, the 5% or less who fit the mold of what perfection is, will be able to say it.

Where in 'ell is Carrie Nation when we need her most?

El Gato (Who thinks people go too damned far imposing their personal wills on others.)

El GAto, I am a sincere defender of the individual rights, and would agree with 90% of your post if the topic was other.

But I hate tobacco's smell, it makes me rather sick.

I have had to bear being suffocated by it all of my life.

It is not like a parfume, which you may like or not, nor it is like a religious idea, that should be proven it is dangerous (tiny red line between religions and sects) before forbidding it. Tobacco is bad from the first inhalation, it is not like eating, that is bad only when you do it in excess.

There is plenty of literature on wether this has been proven or not, and I am not going to add anything now, but, if anybody gets drunk, it is his/her problem, as long as he/she doesn't steal sth. from me to buy that drug, but if somebody smokes close to me or in the same room, he is not only increasing (in my opinion) his possibilities to get a cancer, but also mine, which, I think, means he is invading MY rights.

Following your line, ..., drugs should be free, because we don't have the right to forbid them to people. There must be a line between public health (and safety) and individual rights, and it must be the people who must decide wether it moves up or down a certain level.

We people are not very clever, as a whole, but at least are independent, not like politicians.

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Ignacio,

You're wrong about the alcohol. Drunk drivers kill a lot more people than second hand smoke would ever kill. Studies have shown that well over 50% of all fatal accidents are caused by someone who is intoxicated. So, at the same time as tobacco is eliminated, alcohol should be added to the list. Of course that wouldn't wash, would it? People like their booze. But is that fair? Eliminate one and not the other?

As for the question of second hand smoke, I did not say that public places like restaurants or bars are included in my concern. I indicated public places like parks, and on the street, where second hand smoke is not an issue to be concerned with. This is no better than forcing one person's will on another.

If you don't like the smell of a smoker, because of the smell on their clothes, that's your problem, just as much as my having to smell a perfume which I despise on a woman. Don't mix an enclosed atmosphere with public sidewalks, streets, or parks. That's not a valid argument. The push to include the outside areas, and even the privacy of one's own car is an absurdity. Especially when the problem of people driving down the road with a cell phone plastered on their ear, and not paying attention, is a far greater hazard.

The statement you indicated... that I would condone drugs... not true. Don't put words in my mouth, or use analogies that don't compare. But I do believe that there are circumstances where they should be legal. As an example, a person who is going through chemotherapy could be helped by smoking marijuana. It would reduce, and nearly eliminate the vomiting, and other side effects. But because there is such a lobby against marijuana, and against smoking, this usage is not acceptable. Patients, some of them terminal, are forced to accept an archaic rule. Once again, the purist lobby is so strong that legislatures are afraid to take a stand in favor of this usage, simply because of the ignorance of people who associate smoking/marijuana as bad... nothing ever being acceptable with either.

I smoke. So does my wife. But, we do not smoke in our house, or anyone else's, even if they are smokers. We go outside to smoke. It doesn't make any difference if there's thunder and lightning, if we "need a cigarette" that bad, we have to brave it. But, rest assured, we have been cutting back further and further, and are near the point of being able to quit, without starting again.

We also sit in the non-smoking areas in restaurants, since we don't want to be tempted to smoke. But, this by our choice, not by an edict that someone else has given us.

The question of cult vs religion is one that isn't easily defined. Back in the early 60s, when John F. Kennedy was seeking the nomination from the Democratic Party, and when he was running for President, there was a movement among some organized religions to keep him out of office. They would tell their people that Catholics belonged to a cult, and that the Pope would be living in the White house within thirty days after JFK was elected. They went so far as to go door to door handing out flyers telling about all the "bad things" that would happen when the Catholic Church took over the U.S.

At that point, in my opinion, they breached the contract of seperation between church and state. If these churches had been the decision makers, the Catholic Church would have been labeled a cult, and would have been summarily shut down. There's a fine line between religion and cults. A difficult one.

I believe in civil liberties very strongly. At the same time, I think there should be a tempering of what is, and isn't acceptable to impose on others. But, don't believe for a heartbeat that I'm an anarchist like your last paragraph alluded to. I'm far from it. You shouldn't make those assumptions, they are way off base. I often defend issues from a point of view that I totally disagree with, because every point of view has a right to be supported through discussion, and not hidden away because they are unpopular.

El Gato

ElGato/Lobo, I commend you for your smoking etiquette! If more smokers followed your lead, I suspect non-smokers would be a lot less hostile. I have not too fond memories of my smoking sister-in-law following me from room to room during my first pregnancy. I kept telling her that smoke made me nauseous, and she kept following me, telling me that it was a free country and she had the right to smoke AND to visit me and that I should just deal with it! I have to admit that I have been heard to shout "It's about time!" when new anti-smoking measures come out...largely, I think, because I grew up surrounded by people who forgot that I have as much right not to smoke as they have TO smoke. Here in AZ we have pretty tight no smoking regulations, but they do not extend to the outdoors. It is perfectly ok to smoke in the outdoor areas of restaurants, for example, even though restaurants INSIDE usually don't have smoking areas at all.

I agree 100% with you on the perfume bit. It enfuriates me to see a woman give herself one more good spritz of eau de mouffette cologne just before boarding my plane. I think a good dose of common sense and courtesy would go a long way!

la maestra,

I think all restaurants will end up non-smoking, and I couldn't agree with it more. I enjoy smelling the aromas of food much more than smoke.

Since my wife and I only smoke outside, and have actually shut down smoking in cars as well, we have found our clothes smell fresher too.

Your sister-in-law was totally wrong. Coming into your home, and acting that way, is beyond rude. It's totally unacceptable behavior. She was imposing her values over yours... under your roof. She needs to be taken down a notch or two, taught what the words "respect for others" means.

Yes! The plane ride. Eight and a half hours non-stop, Madrid to Chicago, with a woman sitting in the row in front of us who must have used a gallon of skunk oil as perfume, and behind us, another one, who had a totally conflicting perfume was too much.

Talk about something that ruins an appetite. A skunk fight!

El Gato

ElGato/Lobo, my sister-in-law is beyond reason. When my father-in-law, a long time smoker, developed emphysema she continued to smoke while visiting him until he started to use oxygen (I guess she didn't want to be blown up!). When her husband, also a smoker, got lung cancer, she continued to smoke EVEN THOUGH her husband and the doctors told her his lungs couldn't take it. I think she may have cut down now that SHE has cancer. These days I would have had the power of public opinion behind me; 25 years ago I was considered an anti-social oddball and her behavior was considered appropriate because she "loved me and wanted to be with me."

I have seen some signage around lately reminding women that their fragrance is not alluring to EVERYONE...particularly, as I recall, in doctors' offices. I don't often praise the French, but their philosphy is that perfume should be so discrete that you have to get downright cozy with a woman in order to tell for sure she is wearing perfume at all!

La maestra (who tends to wear the fragrance of bacon and eggs, garlic and onions sauteed in olive oil, or chocolate chip cookies!)

la maestra,

Ah! You wear the scents most likely to attract men with good taste... Food!

It's nice to hear that the French are pushing towards a lower keyed scent. That's quite a departure from the old days, when they pushed spritzing it on until you were soaking wet...

I'm sorry to hear about your in-laws. It's a shame they didn't learn.

El Gato (A Wolf in a cat skin coat...)
By the way, I don't kill the cats, just steal their coats.....

ElGato/Lobo, the woman who gave us a tour of a perfume factory in Paris was very clear that fragrance was (now, you really have to imagine a French accent here to get the full effect!) an intimate thing, like an embrace. It is part of a woman's mystery. You must put it only in these five places...

The five places did not include airports or offices!

The key word here is respect. I don´t mind anyone smoking as long as it doesn´t disturb me. I´ve chosen not to smoke (quitted for several years ago) and a smoker has to respect that. In the same way I have to respect the Spanish custom. I can ask politely the smoker not to belch out the smoke right on my face if possible, but if the person refuses, I can´t do anything about that (except for leaving the place maybe).

A short commentary on the non smoking regulations in Europe: the laws are not equally liberal all over the continent. For example in Finland smoking has been forbidden in public places for more than twenty years!

Tia (who thinks that kissing a smoker is like kissing an ashtray)

El gato y la maestra:

Because of what I said before, the fact that years ago telling somebody who was smoking in your face please not to do it made a rude person out of you (Yes, it is true!), I could not agree more with Lamaestra.

Elgato:

I said: "Following your line, ..., drugs should be free, because we don't have the right to forbid them to people".

This is not putting words in your mouth, it taking a position to the limit to show (in case it was) that it is absurd. In any case, it is obvious that it's me who is developing this line of logic.

About my last paragraph, I am not assuming you are anarchist or whatever. It is MY personal opinion about it, I am for democracy, but I am dissappointed once and again with politicians who do not do what they promise. I believe in democracy because no system that I know is better, but it doesn't mean I consider it perfect.

I am sorry if you have felt disturbed by the written above, but, as you can see, I never wrote you think or mean one or other thing.

Unless my English is worse than I think. In this case, I offer you my excuses.

As for the rest, I didn't read carefully enough the previous, or maybe I let some of the rage of 38 years suffering rude - spanish - smokers. But it is true that the streets is not a real problem for my/our health.

Reading what you write, you must really be a considerate person. But we non-smokers many times face a different kind of people. Nowadays, in the Metro - I mean in the platforms- , you can find people smoking, although it is a closed space, and it is forbidden. If you stare at them they give you a hostile look, so it is better not to argue and maybe fight (and so, lose your right).

The example of religions, as others, was only intended to show that what is good and bad, is different from what is forbidden or not. The last is for us to decide, and the equilibrium between liberties and safety/health is delicate, but up to us.

I was not referring to the smell of persons/clothes when I said the "smell" sickened me. I meant the smoke - In this case, it was my English that failed.

I would never vote for forbidding tobacco because of the smell of smokers, as I would'n forbid parfumes, no matter how horrid they were, no matter that I couldn't stand them, because they do not affect my health (again, open areas is different), for I believe in liberty, even if someone (parfume case) was disturbing me with her/his bad taste.

I have just read the last page of yesterday's newspaper Expansión.

I don't use to agree with this writer, but in this matter I do.

Unfortunately, the web page is not updated yet with his article.

He exposes some thought about liberalism (different from anarchism) of some of the most reputated spanish thinkers, and the attitude of distrust towards politicians:

- Miguel de Unamuno: 'A horrible thing is the moral suicide of individuals in behalf of the colectivity'

- Antonio Machado: 'Politics and culture have few times gone together in Spain'

- Pio Baroja: 'Politics are of no interest for me' 'It is difficult to find anything so vile, incompetent and useless as a spanish politician' 'We should not believe in great politicians. There aren't'

- Salvador de Madariaga: 'Without liberty there is not Man, nor Community, because the Man falls to the level of the beast, and Community to that of a herd'

[ 08-07-2001: Message edited by: Ignacio ]

Ignacio,

Those are all good quotes. I couldn't agree more. But Spain isn't alone in having a large number of politicos who are essentially worthless. We find the same thing in the U.S., and I'd venture that almost any country can say the same thing.

This is a quote that I really like;

Salvador de Madariaga: 'Without liberty there is not Man, nor Community, because the Man falls to the level of the beast, and Community to that of a herd'

It couldn't be said better.

I remember something that an old friend told me years ago. He was so disenchanted with politicians that he decided to run for the United States House of Representatives. He lost in his first try, but won the second time around.

"I am so tired of politicians who don't seem to realize that it shouldn't be a lifetime job. Senators and members of the House of Representatives should only be allowed to serve two terms each. I want to fight to make that a law."

He said that... to me. Now he's in his 4th term in Washington... As good as he is, at representing us, he votes party line, and has forgotten why he went there in the first place. It's become his occupation, and that's when they begin to forget who they represent.

El Gato

In Madrid, the best places to avoid smoke are the vegetarian restaurants, some train cars, museums, and outdoors.

Everywhere else people smoke incessantly, ignoring posted rules. This includes the WC, the subway station, bakery, everywhere.

Before our first visit to Madrid, we asked our Spanish tutor how to ask for the smoking zone in restaurants (my husband smokes - I'm one of the self-righteous, ex-smokers everyone hates ). He told us the phrase - and then told us not to bother because everywhere allowed you to smoke.

Relax and go with it, it's their country!

One of the first things my two "never-been-to-Spain-before" friends noticed on our trip this month was the plethora of smokers in all areas of Spain.

I too am one of those in-your-face non-smokers, and I don't back down even though I'm in another country. I don't see it as "it's their country", I see it as "they're my lungs", and I'm trying to do what I can to preserve them (including moving out of Southern California cuanto antes!).

The "rules" that are in place now in Spain are routinely ignored and nobody says anything (since the majority of Spaniards share the vicio). I wish I would've snapped this indicative picture: In Barajas, a woman was blowing her smoke onto the "no fumar" sign right above her head.

When at a restaurant I would simply blow the smoke back onto the table of the person next to me, etc. They seemed to get the hint, and since I'm able to respond quite clearly and assertively to anyone in Spanish, I haven't had an issue. I actually ended up striking up a conversation (quite amiable) with a woman in a Santiago restaurant.

I think my shining moment on this latest trip had to be when, while walking by a car in Segovia last Saturday, an empty pack of cigarettes was thrown out of the open driver's side window. I was just in front and walked up, bent down, picked up the pack and threw them into the lap of the driver telling him "se te cayó" ['hey you dropped this...']. The driver in the car behind him honked his horn, cheered his agreement and told me "¡muy bien, muy bien!" while the other driver told me "aquí, toma..." as he tried to get me to turn around and acknowledge him. I didn't hacerle caso, I had already had my fun... My friend about wet his pants and couldn't believe my audacity, but we had a great chuckle over that whole incident.

[not really a smoke story, but a litter one, and still pretty darn funny to me!!!]

:p Ducados & lots of Mahou Beer! AHaaaa, the memories!!!