Black in Spain

I have yet to visit Spain or any European country for that matter, but I am eager to start next summer on my first trip (study abroad). I am especially excited about my trip to Madrid after reading all of your recent topics.

One thing I hadn't noticed, and which I am not surprised at, is the lack of information about black people traveling in Spain. (I live in Minnesota so not dealing with a lack of information about black people is normal, trust me).

I wonder how black people are perceived in Madrid. Are they considered, as in most places, "part of the social problems"?

Will I also have to contend with "special treatment" as well when I travel there?

I bring this up because I remember reading somewhere that many European cities regard black foreigners as potential criminals and prostitutes and that they are often prone to frequent ID stops (what we call LWB out here [living while black].

This is something that I worry about first when thinking of my trip abroad because I cannot unpack my color or "blend in" in any way.

I worry about it because as many of you know, in this country, let alone in other countries, people "disappear" or are seriously injured for being the wrong color.

But most of all I worry about it because I know that as a thirty year old woman who has grown up around subtle and not so subtle racism all my life, it would kill my soul to finally be in a place I have dreamed of being in and to have something happen based on the color of my skin. I think it has been one of the reasons why I have been so hesistant to travel all my life.

Right now I am reading James Baldwin to gather strength for this new part of my life. Still I wonder if I am just blowing this all out of proportion.

What have any of you noticed about this issue in your travels through Spain?

[Sheba, I have taken out the borders in your cut-and-pasted posting to save space]

[This message has been edited by MadridMan (edited 08-20-2000).]

I just returned from studying in Spain, and I was with a very diverse group of people. Many of my classmates were Asian, Indian, and Black, and Spaniards definitely noticed the difference, but not necessarily in a derogatory way. Spanish men tend to stare openly anyway, I think that is just a cultural difference, but my friends said that they felt like they were being stared at a lot. None of them ever felt in danger or discriminated against, as far as I know, but they did feel like Spaniards noticed the difference.

You will have a wonderful experience abroad, I am so jealous and I wish I was going with you!

I am a professor of Latin American literature, with a specialization in Afro-Hispanic lit. I travel to Spain lots, on my own, and with students. In Spain, you will see some Africans, especially from Guinea Ecuatorial where Spanish is spoken. You'll also see some afro-cubanos and dominicanos, though not a lot. UNLIKE France, Spain does not have a massive cultural bias against blacks under the preceptions you mentioned. But, as the previous post says, Spanish people love to STARE at everyone, especially anyone 'different' (which can mean different from the person staring: blond, black, short dress, head covered: whatever!!). So you should NOT think the staring is because you are Black. My African-American students have reported NO problems at all owing to race. Young women alone get approached by men, but Spanish men go away if you ignore them. And it isn't massively pervasive. As you also know, Spain has a major cultural influence from the moros (Moors) who dominated the southern half of Ibe

(ran outta room there!) Iberian peninsula from 711-1492. Please tell us how your trip was after you go, and ask any questions this group might know before you go. rgf

Only in 1992 did I see one anti black message sprayed on a wall in Madrid. I have seen HUNDREDS of anti American messages, some the size of billboards.

Sometimes the billboard size messages have a signature, for example Partido Comunista.

One anti black and hundreds of anti American... I guess the term "Spanish red neck" covers them both. (joke here)

Are you reading Richard Wright's book PAGAN SPAIN? He profoundly reflects on his blackness while giving a beautiful tour of Spain. His story is told in 1950's Spain. The book is currently published by HarperPerennial.

Black or white, I think you are safer in Spain than on the city streets of our country. Of course, always be on guard and hold on to your money. Thievery is big there. Stay with a group or a friend until you decide how you feel.

In 1992 my aunt in I spent the day traveling with three black women from the USA. We met them at our hotel. The color issue never came up in our conversation and we had a delightful day sightseeing and dining together.

I would bet that you have a good experience and that you don't perceive an anti skin color bias.

Buena suerte, hermana.

Sheba, everyone here brings up some very interesting remarks like rgf's "Spanish men openly stare at everyone out of the ordinary" and this is oh-so-true. You may even perceive a kind of scowl on their faces, but don't take it as being derogatory, but just their way. I'm SURE they look at their wives in the same way at times.

And Sofia! YES! You beat me to it!! I too was going to suggest Richard Wright's book Pagan Spain ( CLICK HERE for book cover image ). I finished this book last year and found it fantastic to see 1950s Spain through his eyes, being a black man from the US (but was at that time living in Paris). I just looked up the book at Amazon.com and found it was out-of-print, but I'm sure you, being a bookstore manager, can find it either in YOUR store, your local library, or at the used book (Half-Price Book) shop in your area like where I found mine.

And don't think there are no blacks in Spain! There are MANY! In fact, many Africans emigrate (both legally and illegally) to Spain everyday! Most of them stay in the south, but some move northward. However, the distinguishing feature between you and that of an African would be your clothing, I'm sure. Someone told me (or maybe I read it in Richard Wright's book) that they were noticed in Spain not because they were black, but because they were "American" and perceived as a tourist (for the language, clothing, etcetera).

So relax! Enjoy Spain and all its riches!!

Saludos, MadridMan

[This message has been edited by MadridMan (edited 08-20-2000).]

Sheba, many people said this already but it is very true that people will stare at you and even if you stare at them they won't stop. Honestly I didn't know any black person when I was living there but it is not because we are racist is because there is not many. Black people are okay and you will be okay there. And PLEASE don't feel bad if they stare at you, it is just our way.
Have fun!
Nuria

Perhaps Nuria and Antonio might have some insight into this issue of Spaniards and their staring at people. This may be way off base, but it is just a theory-
Do you think that, perhaps, many Spaniards stare at people who may be just a tad different from the masses b/c Spain was isolated under Franco for so long? Just an idea. It really is amazing though- all the stares if someone may be speaking differently, wearing something "different" or if they are tall or fat. Anyone willing to dig into the Spanish psyche for this one? I, myself, have been wondering about this for many years.
Jen

Here's my theory. North Americans have a puritanical basis for everything, so they are acculturated NOT to stare (even though they'll ask you the nosiest questions... go figger!). Meditteranean types (italianos, etc) are more open about staring because the body isn't considered to-be-hidden, to be ashamed of. Just a theory. Nothing to do w/ Franquismo, that's for sure!

I remember when I was a little girl and my mother said : "It is very rude to stare at people" So I thought, why?, everybody do it. We are curious, we like new things and different things and we like to see what is in front of us. Here people look to other place if I look at them or if they are looking at me and I look at them they go away. I don't look at anybody here and nobody look at me, it feels weird, like I don't exist but sometimes it is better if nobody notice you.

rgf-
that really makes sense given our Puritan background. How many times have our mothers told us that it's not polite to stare!!

I guess that it is not polite to stare because the people who is being stared feels uncomfortable, thinking if she/he has something on his teeth or face or something like that. But in Spain I guess you don't feel uncomfortable becasue you know there is not something wrong with you, it is just people like to stare.

Nuria-
Are you saying that Spaniards never get anything caught in their teeth? (While rowing a boat at the Retiro, while watching the storks, while wearing gym shoes?)

Mmmmmmmmm, I don't know, let me think... That never happened to me but... Okay, I have it, there is another think that Spaniard do. We use those small wooden sticks that I don't know the name (MADRIDMAN, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO PUT A DICTIONARY HERE FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME?????????????? ) and they clean between your teeth (se llaman palillos). I think here is rude to use them so I have to be extra-carefull when I go to a restaurant.

toothpicks nuria

------------------
Spain Page!! Check it out! http://www.geocities.com/missmadrid98/homepage.html?957296168010

Gracias!!!!!!!

.

Thanks to all who replied to my query. I really appreciate all of the advice and just wanted you all to know that I feel much better now.

Also, my copy of Richard Wright's "Pagan Spain" is on its way. Madrid Man was right when he stated that the book is out of print, but I found out-of-print copies for sale on the juggernaut (and some in the book business would say evil) empire of barnesandnoble.com.

As for the state of staring. I was also taught not to stare at people when I was a child, mostly out of respect for the personal space. But it was also because staring can be interpreted as a come on, an insult, or a voyeuristic leaning.

I suppose the logic is that you do not stare at other people so that they feel that they have complete freedom to go about the business of living without an audience. Since the majority of us are not trained to walk around as actors in our everyday, this logic has merit.

Still, I have become quite comfortable with being stared at and when I am irritated by it, I stare back (not rudely, but just to let the person know I know they are staring).

Sheba-
I wouldn't count out Lisbon. I was there twice so far and didn't exactly have the best of luck while there, but it is a beautiful and interesting city. Even if things may not turn out as we plan them, it really helps to have a sense of humor about everything and just roll with it. Have fun.

Ok, this has nothing to do with the "black in Spain" subject. It's an answer to the toothpick/palillo question and Nuria's request for a dictionary. www.vox.es has an online dictionary.
Now that I think about it...if you get a piece of calamar en su tinta or a black olive caught between your theeth while you are in Spain...

Wendy E,
I was living until 1999 in Madrid and I don't think that Madrid had a large black population by that time, actually I think that it was very rare to see black people there (this was one thing that all my american friends and family pointed when they went to my wedding, they hardly ever saw black people)
So I wonder what part of the city where you staying and when, you might have been in a part of the city that I am not very familiar with.

My ladyfriend, who was born and raised in Madrid during her 30+ years, told me the same thing when I asked her about this topic because I hadn't seen ANY blacks in Madrid during my 3 visits. She said that they lived in their own barrios in/around Madrid and that they rarely ventured outside. This is what I was told anyway.

Saludos, MadridMan

.

This would be REALLY interesting to know: where do the Africans in Madrid live? (I presume they are Africans) In what occupations do they work? When I was in the Tetuan area in the summer, I was in the heart of the barrio sudamericano, and it was fascinating to see all the shops and telefono places oriented toward specific groups. WHoever has the info on African communities, tell! gracias. siempre curiosa sobre MADRID. Makes me a madridcurio. a whole new member category!

Hola a todos,

This is a really interesting topic! Well, about the African neighbourhoods - it is probably Lavapiés. It really isn´t the African part more than it is the guiri part of town ---it does have have a huge immigrant section of all types - Asians, Africans (mostly Morrocans) etc...it also has great restaurants and places to hang out...

As for clubs, try La Comedia in Santa Ana...it´s one of the only places that plays rap/hip hop in Madrid (and thus, is one of my favorite places to go). It has a very varied mix of people...

Yes, madrid people do stare at you if you are different - my mother is from Sri Lanka and therefore, I look different...and people openly stare at me everywhere (especially on the Metro, for some reason). Usually, they are not hostile stares, but sometimes, the older Madrid ladies look at me strangely...

There is also the opposite - my boyfriend is Swedish and pretty tall, so he gets a lot of stares as well...and when we go out together...well, you can just imagine the looks

All in all, Madrid is not a great place for cultural diversity...but it is great place to visit (and live!)

I am a mother of a 20-year old black girl who is spending a semester in Spain at this time. To give a first-hand experience from a black girl, here is what she e-mailed:

"The Spanish people are very friendly, and I doubt they've seen anyone that looks like me before, b/c all the black people are the color of charcoal. And, the Africans here, the majority of them, don't have
much money, so obviously they have a somewhat bad reputation for being
antisocial and poor".


My daughter's skin tone is beautiful - not too dark or light - just right (morena as Spanish men call her). To add to that, she is beautiful.(I am Asian; my husband is black). Spanish men find her very attractive to a point that when she enters a club, the Spanish women give her bad look.

When she was 16 years old, she and I visited Hong Kong, Bali and Manila. Wherever she went, she was the only black person. While in Hong Kong, a young man, engineering student approach her and became our guide while we were in Hong Kong. Beauty is beauty regardless of color.

Of course, most of the time, you will be the only black which my daughter always find herself being the only "morena". Speaking/understanding Spanish helps being one of the few in the crowd. Go out there and see the world!

Madrid man, I first visited Spain the 50s--and about 25 more times over the subsequent years. I read Wright's Pagan Spain when I first went there, and re-read it recently.

Wright was a Communist, and had a strong bias against Franco. My impression from reading his book is that he went to Spain with pre-conceived notions and attitudes toward the country and the Government, searched for (or invented) things that would hoep make his case. I found little of real relevance in it. Regardless, it has absolutely no relevance a half-century later.

Better to suggest Jame's Michener's "Iberia,"
which contains a lot of accurate history and political thought at the time he wrote it. The political commentary in "Iberia" is dated now. But his treatment of the people and the cultural glories of Spain remain accurate and entertaining.
Cantabene

I lived in Madrid for 2 years ('91 - '93). My experience is that blacks are almost always indirectly discriminated against. This is because the most visible blacks are out on the streets hustling by selling cheap bogus products on blankets in and near the metro stops. It's not uncommon for the police to walk through Retiro park on a summer evening and see the africans scattering becuase they are illegal or don't have a licence to sell. It's just the way it is there - good or bad

I agree with cantabene's comments on Michener's "Iberia" and Wright's "Pagan Spain." I read the latter about two years ago, and really felt he had a bone to pick, and was picking a bit too hard. That said, however, I also felt he was the only one who wrote eloquently on what it was like to be a black person travelling through Spain. Comparing his comments with what I'd noticed over the years with black friends in Spain, I felt he was right on, even though it was decades later. Other than that, it's probably best that the book is out of print.

I really appreciate the comments regarding "Pagan Spain" which I have yet to read as I am pondering on whether or not to read it while I am there. If little else, it may be a good conversation starter.

But I would also like to note that as with any author it is important to also look at their lives when reading. I have read a quite a bit of books that were written by American expatriates living in Europe and I have as yet to find one that is not biased.

In other words, it can't be any worse than Hemingway's book about Paris, or Sylvia Beach's for that matter. Perhaps I will write a book from the perspective of a black woman in Spain? But I cannot guarantee that it will be without bias. We are human, biases come naturally.

Sheba--If you read "Pagan Spain" please report back on your reactions. I'm sure they will be interesting.
Cantabene

What the h#@$? 'Tis a unique topic.

Hi miles! Are you referring to the subject of this thread or the question posed by cantabene? If the latter, cantabene is referring to a 1950s (?) Richard Wright book (a black man from the US who spent some time in Spain) called "Pagan Spain". See the above postings regarding this good book.

Saludos, MadridMan

SHEBA, I HAVE BEEN TO SPAIN TWICE. I WENT IN 1998 TO MADRID, BARCELONA AND MALLORCA. IN 1999 I WENT TO LONDON, ROME, AND MADRID.I AM BLACK AND I MUST SAY THAT I HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED MUCH NEGATIVITY IN SPAIN. LONDON WAS FUN AND THOUGH THE RACISM IS MORE SUBTLE, I BELIEVE THAT I WAS TREATED WITH RESPECT.I LOVED ROME AND I WAS SURPRISED AT THE AMOUNT OF AFRICANS LIVING THERE AND ALSO SOME DOMINICANS. I HAD ONE EXPERIENCE WITH A GENTLEMAN WHO WAS WALKING WITH HIS(IN ROME) GIRLFRIEND. AS I PASSED HIM HE BECAME VERY HOSTILE AND STARTED YELLING AT ME IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET. I WALKED AWAY. IN SPAIN MOST PEOPLE ARE CURIOUS ABOUT YOU. IN GENERAL I HAVE FOUND THAT THE CITIES ARE MORE TOLERANT. IN NO WAY SHOULD YOU BE SCARED HOWEVER.IT HAS BEEN AN INCREDIBLE EXPERIENCE FOR ME. EUROPE IS JUST LIKE ANY OTHER PLACE. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WILL NOT LIKE YOU AND THERE ARE OTHERS THAT WILL. EUROPEANS ARE HONEST ABOUT IT. I HOPE TO SPEND A YEAR IN SPAIN IN A YEAR OR TWO .MADRID IS SO MUCH FUN. i HAVE MET SOME NICE PEOPLE THER AND IN BARCELONA. oF ALL COUNTRIES I HAVE BEEN TO IN EUROPE SO FAR SPAIN IS THE BEST. IT IS IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT THE BEAUTY OF THE CITY YOU ARE IN DESPITE ITS' SHORTCOMINGS. I BELIEVE THAT THIS EXPERIENCE WILL OPEN UP YOUR WHOLE WORLD. P.S. IF YOU DECIDE TO GO CLUBBING JOY ESLAVA HAS A GOOD MIX OF PEOPLE AND MUSIC(TOP 40, RAP AND TECHNO).

If you say that that so called "gentleman" started yelling at you in the middle of the street, why do you refer to him as such? A gentleman he certainly is not. I think that word is incredibly overused. Just my opinion...

I agree Jen. And the same with the word "lady". And MATADOR, WHY DO YOU SHOUT SO?! (all caps = shouting) You're hurting my ears!

This last trip, last month, I saw more Africans than any other year so I'm sure people are less surprised to see black-skinned persons in Madrid and other cities in Spain.

Saludos, MadridMan

This is in response to Jen and Madrid man. My use of the word "gentleman" is a result of my upbringing. I was raised in a South American country(formerly a British Colony). I could have called the "gentleman" a racist pig or a dog , but that would mean that I am at his level. In England the term the honourable gentleman is used in parliament even if the statement that is being directed at the individual is positive or negative and that individual might the most hated person in the assembly.
P.S. I apologize for the caps but it is easier on my eyes.

I can't believe that freak started screaming at you.

Unfortunately, there are morons everywhere...

Matador, Your use of the word "gentleman" under rather dubiuous circumstances certainly marks you as a Gentleman!

[This message has been edited by Puna (edited 11-09-2000).]

Matador

Thank you for the great uplifting advice. You are right, you should always look at the beauty of a thing, not it's shortcomings.

I originally wrote because I was concerned from a lot of the news I was hearing about how black U.S. citizens, in particular women, were treated abroad. The news at the time was divided between the search's done at airports and a few articles I have read about black women traveling abroad being treated as if they were prostitutes by the natives.

This last news item was of particular interest to me, because there were reports of black women being spit on and targets for overt sexual harassment based off the reported influx of African immigrant women into European countries to sell their goods, so to speak, to a wealthier market.

The reports said that many of the attacks were provoked by a prevailing European thought (which is not that different from Americans, really) that African women brought disease, AIDs, to be specific, into their country.

So, I hope this clears up why I was, and still somewhat am, concerned. I don't have a high tolerance level when it comes to ignorance. I can get really violent really fast when physically provoked, so it was a concern for my overall bodily safety as well as my mental state.

I don't PLAN on anything like that happening, because I am pretty even-tempured otherwise, but I like to know what to expect which is exceedingly difficult when venues, and travel arrangements tend to lean toward educating a certain group of people.

I think this is why "gay friendly" travel articles, brochures, and guides were developed, which, by the way, I read because I figure that if they are gay-friendly, they will be a little more open to having someone like me go too. While traveling to New York, something I do quite often, I stay at all the gay friendly places and frequent all the gay friendly bars. I like acceptance I feel in those places and the people I meet.

This is not to say that people anywhere are outright racist or even subtly racist (as you mentioned you found in London) or that I have to plan my trip around places with people who are. My prevailing idea still is, why should I pay a lot of money, spend a lot of time, and spend a lot of energy to be somewhere where I am not welcome and to be treated like trash?

And in reply to the woman who had a daughter who is half Asian/ half black. I must say that I am happy to hear that your daughter is o.k. in Spain, but I certainly don't want the exoticized sexual attraction of men that your daughter is getting. That would not make me feel more comfortable anywhere. See above.

But thank you Matador. I would be interested to here more about where you stayed while in Madrid and if you are going back anytime soon. And I will definitely write down the name of the bar you gave.

Sheba,
You are very wise in doing a survey on places where you would be welcomed and not be treated like trash. When my daughter was to decide whether to study in London or Madrid, one of her concerns was how Spaniards react to black women. She did her research, talked to black women from her school who have been in Madrid. Most of the comments she received was she will be stared at because she is black and not take it personally. I will be visiting her next month and she is so proud to tell me that she knows Madrid at the palm of her hand. I asked her about mugging, pickpockets, sexual harassment. She replied that one of the best advise she received from a friend (black) who also studied in Spain was to blend in and act like you are a long-time resident of Madrid. And another thing about Spanish men is to be firm and say in Spanish of course (I do not speak the language) "Do not bother me and leave me in peace." According to my daughter, as a non-white, she is able to explore more communities (African, Domincan)than her other friends. In the evenings, she said it always advisable to walk with someone to avoid flirtations from Spanish men. She also said how you dress is important as not to get unnecessary flirtations from guys. She now has made good friends with the locals as well as other foreign students. She moves around in Madrid with ease. Does she still get stared at because she is black, of course she does at places she visits for the first time. According to her, there are quite a number of black students studying in Madrid. She loves Spain and probably upon graduation would love to work in Barcelona. She found it more difficult to deal with com-americans who for the first time are interacting with fellow black-american on a one-to-one basis. She could not believe that some american students have never been exposed to blacks on a one-to-one basis. It goes to say that more often than not, racism is caused by ignorance or lack of interaction.

Racism is never having been exposed to blacks on a one-to-one basis?

Sounds like racism the other way round to me.

Leche

Leche, Leche, Leche...

What are we going to do with you?

Can you believe it though?! I'm offended that someone would even say that!

So does it work the other way around too? Do whites consider a racist a black person who has never had dealings with a white person? I thought racism meant assumed that there was some sort of misguided attitude which excluded someone because of race. I didn't know I could be a racist just because no black people live in my town. Perhaps the definition has expanded in recent years?

Leche

Leche,
You should not take things in a personal way. What caused people to be racially biased? Ignorance and lack of interaction. It is more difficult to travel in places where as Matador says you are a"curiosity". Why is it easy for Whites to travel in Europe? Because in Europe, they are not as Matador says "curiosity." I am not calling anybody as racist. I am describing what caused racism. If my daughter had taken personally what people say of black people, she would not have enjoyed Madrid. She realized why some people have negative attitudes towards black or event built-in steortypes -- ignorance or lack of interaction. I live in a community where we are the only non-white residents. At first, everybody stared at us. Now that we have socialized with our neighbors, their attitudes have changed and we no longer get the "cursioty looks.". The same thing has happenned with my daughter. Whenever she goes to places where she has socialized or met people, she no longer gets stupid questions or "curiosity" stare.

Leche,
I think it really depends on the individual. But, what I believe, and what I think she was trying to say, is that racism often comes from ignorance. Being ignorant doesn't mean that you are by nature a jerk, you are just underexposed to certain things and groups of people.

In my opinion, people in large cities are no less ignorant than people in small cities. Superficial contact with a particular group of people (seeing them on the train or at the mall, but not knowing anyone personally) doesn't not break down stereotypes and prejudices - no matter what group you are from and what group you are "lookin at" - korean, hispanic, black white, arab.. If that were the case, New YOrk city wouldn't have all the racial problems it does. I think what she meant by one-on-one contact, is just that, having a meaningful relationship and contact with a someone from a particular group.

It is really pretty easy to not have more than superficial contact with particular groups. I had a few really good mormon friends in Chile, that I never would have even met, had it not been for my job. I might have seen them on the street, but what does that do... Same thing with my last job, I would never have had such good muslim friends from Iraq, had it not been for a job that required such team work. I wouldn't have ever been in a position to have real contact. And I was pretty ignorant about Islam and Arab cultures up to that point (not totally, but I definitely had some stereotypes).

what you do with those opportunities after you have the chance, demonstrates the kind of person that you are.


[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 11-13-2000).]

Nicole,
Your explanation is very clear. I completely agree with what you have written. Your friends are diversed because of opportunities you have to meet people outside of your comfort zone. It is through exposure we learn about other groups. My daughter's experience in Spain is so positive that she would want to return and spend a few years in Barcelona. She now spend weekends with Spanish friends who have homes in the mountains. The director of her program asked her to lecture to senior high schools on black American students. She found it very refreshing to be able to talk to high school students on black american students. Her Spain experience has made her horizons broader, tolerating and understanding differences with other groups. As she said, she was glad to take this step to spend a semester in Spain rather than in London. I do encourage for american students to experince study abroad for it brings new perspectives in their lives.

I know! that is the best part about it!!

ok, ok...I think I know what mclarke meant (but didn't explain). But this is my point... RACISM is not IGNORANCE, NON EXPOSURE, or whatever else you want to call it. Those things can motivate racism but do not define it. Ignorance is simply ignorance. Because I don't have any black friends in my town does NOT mean that I am a racist or anything else. It could be that no blacks live on my block, or work where I work, or frequent the music stores I do. It is not a conscious choice I make, but our paths simply do not cross. Do you see the difference now?

I just hate to see these terms bandied about with no consequences as they carry VERY specific and harmful meanings. And since the political pendulum seems to be swinging back the other way with the PC movement the knee jerk reaction is to go the other way now with a retaliation accusation. Sad commentary when mclarke notes her daughter's reaction to white students that may not have black friends for reasons I noted above and automatically thinks..."oh, they must be racist!"

Leche

Can't resist the opp to sound off: I agree with you, Nicole...when I was teaching HS Spanish, I had a kid call me racist. I stopped the lesson right there and went silent, just staring at the kid...you could've heard a pin drop, and the other kids knew exactly why I did what I did. This goes along with what Leche was saying. The term 'racist' is so over-used, at least in the U.S. Anyway, after stopping, I asked him what his grounds were...and I took advantage of the opp to explain what a racist is, and why I didn't fit that particular bill. This, in the most diverse of all my classes.

Racism can be how you respond to your experiences, and those who hate those who are racially different should rightfully be placed in that category.

When referring to Spain, remember that they have a long history of intolerance; roughly 650+ years. It was under the banner of Catholic Christianity that the Reconquest began under Pelayo and ended under Fernando and Isabel. Unfortunately, one of the reasons the "Siglo de Oro" (beginning with the Age of Discovery) didn't last longer was due to the lack of an "inteligentsia" in Spain. They were all booted out at the end of the 15th century! Gracias a la Inquisición, the remaining "thinkers" and many other productive citizens were expelled, tortured or murdered, again under the banner of "Unity".

I'm grateful that my experiences in Spain have led me to believe that, albeit gradually, there are those Spaniards who are rejecting that portion of their history; not claiming it didn't happen, but understanding that they don't agree with it, and want a different Spain for their future. Spain's history demonstrates that she was the original "melting pot" or "salad bowl," centuries before the U.S. got that nickname.

Well put CaliBasco...

Leche

An open dialogue is always a good thing. I hope we get to that point some day. I hope Spain gets to that point some day...

One thing, and just listen before you get all riled up, okay Leche? . With my own eyes, I have seen people openly and not so openly discriminated against, to their knowledge. The percentage of times these people actually said anything was probably around 2-3%. People tolerate a lot more than you think before challengin others. You have to choose your battles wisely, who wants to fight that exhausting battle all the time?

Therefore, I don't really think the term racism is thrown around nearly as much as actual racism and prejudice are... Sometimes it is used incorrectly, and that is where an open dialogue is important. Nonetheless, the fact that someone may misinterpret your actions should not invalidate legitimate claims of dicrimination of others. Unfortunately, I think that is what happens way too often.

Having the ability to really talk and think about it is really important, and unusual. For one, people don't really listen very well, and don't want their ideas threatened.

Look at the thread about ETA. How many times did Calibasco repeat, and repeat and repeat that he was not supporting the violence and terrorism by ETA. His assertion that some of the feelings of friction between Basques and Spaniards are justified by a history of negative behavior by both parties went virtually unheard, while people got all upset about his defending and "being brainwashed" by ETA.


We humans are such passionate ittle creatures, aren't we?

Sheba,

Just to let you know when you make friends in Spain, you will experience new things like my daughter. This is an e-mail, I just received from her.

"Last weekend I went to a friend's house in the mountains, and though they
all lived in pretty modern suburban houses there, I was quite surprised
and totally impressed when my friend's mom made paella (typical Spanish
rice dish) in the fireplace, with actual fire. How often do you see that???
They have two fireplaces, one upstairs in the living room, and one in the
basement for cooking. It was this great mix of the old/traditional world
and the modern technological world that we live in. In the same house
where there was a tv, computer, etc, they were cooking in the fire. Pretty
cool, huh? And the food was really good! (nice change from the bland meals
I get in my house here).

Receiving this e-mail, makes me look forward to see Spain next month.

I love Nicole! (In a bulletin-board-only sort of way )...I mean that you seem to look at people's posts in a very open way. One of the big problems in general society today is our inability to listen to others.

BTW Nicole, in response to your question as to "who wants to fight that exhausting battle all the time"? Two Words: Jesse Jackson. According to him, the Florida ballot was "racist"...

Awh..

I am staying away from the rest of that though.

Wow! One day I looked at this part of the bulletin board and there was something like 30-some odd responses (the file was on fire 'fer chrissakes!) and the next there was 50-something! You folks have done some serious writing on this subject! So, I thought I would try to respond.

Naturally LECHE(and CALISBO) if someone called me a racist, I think I would be a bit upset. It is a really powerful word that is used to describe a really powerful idea. So, I can see why you would be upset.

But I have to disagree with the basic premise that racism is just about a one-on-one relationship between people. That's prejudice, not racism. Racism is really a system of oppression. That is why it can be used to corrupt so many entirely different groups of people. It is in the same vein as sexism. It corrupts without people realizing that it is corrupting and it survives because so many people refuse to believe that they are affected by the system.

For instance, I don't think as a black person that I could CHOOSE to live in an entirely black neighborhood. In fact, I don't know of any ENTIRELY BLACK neighborhoods,(and please don't respond with examples like Cabrini-Green as these are multi-racial ghettos, not neighborhoods as we traditionally think of them), but I know of many ENTIRELY WHITE neighborhoods. Why is this? Think about how this came about? Was this because people of color just forgot to move into your neighborhood? Was it because people of color just don't have the money to live in your neighborhood? Was this due to historic zoning laws and past acts of racism? How did this come about?

I worked on a racism and affordable housing committee here in Minneapolis that investigated and researched housing patterns within the Twin Cities. Just to let you know, the patterns are not accidents! Entirely white neighborhoods are NOT accidents, and please don't try to convince me that they are.

In my lifetime (since living in all-white neighborhoods in Minnesota), I have experienced racism in housing approximately five times in some subtle and not so subtle ways, going from a giant pile of garbage on our doorstep when I was kid with a note saying: "Go back to Africa Nigger" to a landlord who accused me of bringing roaches into the building, even though I am a degreed professional. So, you can see why this particular issue is close to my heart.

You can claim ignorance all you want, get blue in the face, feel like the term is bandied about too much, close your eyes, and hold your breath, but you cannot change the facts.

The fact is that the system is perpetuated when people deny ANY responsibility for their role in it. And that means EVERYONE.

Concerning blacks being called racists: if racism is a system of oppression, how can the oppressed be racist? In order to oppress, to truly have power-over, which is what oppression means, then you must have power. Roll your eyes here at the word oppression, but it does oppression does not just mean the extreme Auschwitz-type scenario, it can take many forms, just like aggression.

Now, I don't know about you all, but when I turn on the t.v., I know who is in power. When I open the newspaper, I know who is in power. When I look to who leads this nation, I know who is in power. When I go to the doctor, get my car fixed, rent an apartment, or even buy a home, I know who is in power.

Please do not try to convince me that this is not significant or that I'm just seeing what I want to see or that the few tokens out there should be representative of something more than it is or that I must have an agenda here in saying this.

This is how the system works, has always worked, will always work, until someone besides people of color SEE also. (THANK YOU NICOLE!). If someone were to come up to me today and say: "Hey, you're not giving enough!" I can get blue in the face and call them hypocrites and really just try to divert the attention away from myself, or I can look at what they are trying to say and really LISTEN to what I SEE.

Yeah, I know, what kind of wacko thinks like this, eh?

To MCCLARKE: Thank you for your uplifting words. I really appreciate the stories about your daughter. I received your e-mail so long ago and wanted to thank you then, but unfortunately, I never did. I apologize. You have such a delightful way of writing and I hope your trip to Spain goes well.

Sheba,

Your comments are very insightful. With regards to your Spain trip in the future, my daughter's advise is try to have sort of a command of the Spanish language. She said being a black american in spain who speaks the language is an asset. Now she speaks Spanish like a Madrilena (with a twang). Recently, the director of her program gave her a job to tutor two spanish children (7 and 11 yearsl old) in Spanish. She gets paid $25.00 an hour. For these Spanish children, it is their first time to meet and interact with a "black" person on a one-to-one basis. This interaction between these children and my daughter opens a new door to these children -- change of attitudes towards "black". Not only is she tutoring these young children, she also teaches at a girls' high school, once week, U.S. geography. My daugher could not believe how opportunities (in Nicole's word) comes her way to improve perception on blacks by spaniards and at the same time,she earns some money for her "menu del dia". She will spend her first christmas away from home this year. I was concerned but she told me she already has so many invitations to choose from where to spend the holidays. The children's parent that she is tutoring has invited her to join them in France at their ski resort home. Well, my daughter does not ski because when she was young, we forbade her not to ski inorder to protect her fingers since she was taking violin lessons (She is also a violinist). I told her go with the family and learn to ski. After her Spain experience, she will come back to the U.S., with so much experience to cherish. As a mother, Sheba, I am very proud that my daughter's trip to Spain is not just for fun but also as an agent to change Spaniards' perception on "black american".
I am really excited to visit Spain next month and spend the holidays with my daughter. I will keep you inform of my Spain experience. I am doing a crash course on the language even though my daughter is fluent in Spanish.

Happy Thanksgiving!

ok Sheba, I understand that you are very upset and don't want us to "try to convice you" (read: close minded)....isn't trying to convince us what you were doing?

But here's the thing....there are less blacks than whites. Sorry but it's true. Just the numbers show you that there will be more "white" neighborhoods than "black" neighborhoods. What does this mean? Probably nothing.

Like I said, I don't avoid blacks and I think anyone who would is a racist. I just like to think of everyone here as an American. Period.

Leche

[This message has been edited by Leche (edited 11-17-2000).]

Sheba, don't oppress me by calling me Calisbo. Doggone it, I'm Calibasco!

Seriously though, I disagree with your definition of racism per se as being a 'system' of opression. Racism is the thought that race determines physical traits and that because of this, one race is, or can be described as, inherently superior to others. Racism can be practiced by any group towards any other, whether a majority or not. Racism is an idea that is acted upon, not necessarily the actions themselves.

It seems we have something in common, even though our racial background is different: I also grew up in Minnesota, and could see "who was in power". The reason there, however, is that Minnesota was settled by Scandinavians and Germans, not slaveholders, and therefore has very little African history. It also has very little history of being diverse in the 21st-century definition (which seems to imply all skin tones must be present in order for a society to truly be 'diverse'). That's racial diversity, but what of cultural or ideological diversity? Is that unimportant? I always joke with friends that Minnesota's idea of diversity is whether you're Swedish, Norwegian or Danish.

Since coming to L.A., I've seen that racism is alive and well on a personal level in all ethnic groups. Unfortunately, racism knows no ethnic bounds, and no particular ethnicity seems to have a monopoly on it.

The issue in the U.S. is whether or not those in the majority have conspired against particular ethnicities in an effort to oppress. I think that this is what you refer to in your post. Maybe I don't 'see' the 'system' as you do. Maybe I'm just naive enough to expect the best in others and strive to put forth the best in my own dealings with everyone. I don't think you could ask a single person who has met me whether I judged them by 'the color of their skin' in lieu of the 'content of their character', yet I live in this 'racist system' of which you speak. We can be a part of a system without being a participant or perpetrator of it.

Whew...that was long and I didn't even mention Spain once. Maybe we're all off the track here...sorry!!! We should go to MinnesotaMan.com for discussions on the U.S., no?

P.S. Where in Minnesota did you live? I grew up in White Bear Lake. We would have taken the guy that put that crap on your step OUT! That really makes me mad that this sort of stuff still happens ANYWHERE...

I'm just going to write a line or two b/c this a quite the complex subject. Racism is an institution; a system. People can also be racist, but only if they are in a position of economic power. People often interchange the words prejudiced and racist. They are quite different. Spain's institutions are racist too. Why do most Gitanos live on the outskirts of town? One could say that that's where they want to be... To simply recognize the fact that we live in racist societies is the first step to change. To see the world through rose colored glasses, saying that "I'm not racist. I don't see color" denies that deep seeded problems exist. We don't want to be racist(most of us) but by nature of our societies, most Anglos (in the US at least) are, and not necesarily consciously. I'll stop now.
Have a great weekend everyone!!

[This message has been edited by Jen (edited 11-17-2000).]

WHAT????! No Jen...most Anglos in the US are NOT racist! Do you even realize what kind of accusations you're throwing around? That's why I replied to mclarke the way I did in the first place...because you are trying to apply your definition of something onto me that I am most certainly not. I am not consciously or unconsciously racist and farbeit from you to say that I am. Saying that I don't see color is not "seeing the world through rose colored glasses". If everyone could say that we wouldn't have all these problems. Can't you see that? That is what we WANT people to be like. Change starts on an individual level.

Leche

It owuld have been better for me not to have participated. I am not throwing around accusations. Yes, of course, change starts at home, comes from within, but we must see the world for what it really is-an unfair world. Enough of this. Don't take it personally-I'm talking about society as a whole. Peas on earth. By the way, "seeing color" doesn't indicate racism or being prejudiced-it's seeing people. Salad bowl, baby. That's the beauty of it.-there ain't no melting pot.

[This message has been edited by Jen (edited 11-17-2000).]

ok..I'm not upset. Thanks Jen. I know this is not a debate but a discussion. I agree that we should all be more tolerant of everyone else.

Leche

I have to agree with Jen though. I think it is pretty hard not to be prejudiced and participate in a racist system - whatever the society. I have found that in every country, there is always some group that felt to be inferior by the dominant culture, and whether or not people want to, they have all sorts of ideas in their heads about that group.

A powerful example of that kind of brainwashing for me, was in Chile. I knew two taxi drivers that worked for an American company. The general manager sponsored them a trip to the U.S. to visit the headquarters and the plant, to let them really feel part of the team. Neither had ever been out of CHile, and one, Jorge, had never seen a black person (unfortunately, not very difficult in that particular country). When they came back, the other taxista, Enrique, told me that the whole time they were up there, Jorge was terrified and couldn't wait to get home. Every time he was on a street where there was more than one black person, he became convinced that they were talking to each other on there cell phones and were plotting to steal from them or kill them.

Admittedly, Jorge wasn't too bright, but to me, this was an example of how powerful role of the media is. Here was someone whose only experience with African Americans from the U.S. was through movies, t.v. and news - and look at his stereotypes, and how powerful they were. Frankly, I found it really depressing. Yet, we have all of that in our cultural subconcious too, along with other information and disinformation ( by all kinds of sources).

I think we have been tricked into thinking that opression, in this case racism, is only when people commit overt acts like burning a cross in someone's front lawn. When those events occur, they are seen as "isolated" and not as representing a more extreme version of what exists in a culture as whole. Also, if you add up how much things like that occur during just one year in the U.S., you would be truly shocked.

I think we have made enormous progress in the last thirty years, but there is still a long way to go. I think one of the things that inhibits progress is the fact that opression is such an emotional topic for people. When talking about race, people immediately explode with a denial of there own prejudices and racism as if there has just been a full on frontal attack. It is more productive to acknowledge what our conceptions/misconceptions are, how we got them, and move form there. With that approach we are much more likely to have an ability to deal with these issues in a producive way, as individuals and as a society.

Just my two cents.

I better say something about Spain before MadridMan erases this whole thing.

Que viva espana, ole!! (how's that?)

I'm not going to reply to this forum as I am not as eloquent with the written word as most of you are here.
This is for the L.A. group. If any of you in California get the chance to visit the Simon Weisenthal Center/Museum of Tolerance on Pico Blvd. in Los Angeles, please go! Not only is it a museum about the Holocaust, but it deals, very intensely with this topic-Racism and its history.
It is profound and a real eye opener.

P.S. Thanks you guys for all your insight on this subject.

I know. I keep meaning to go; it is only three or four blocks from my job. soon, soon.

I would prefer not to focus on the labels that Jen and Nicole are stamping us with and look more to the ACTIONS of people. I know that I do not ACT out of prejudice no matter what these 2 call me or incinuate that I do not realize about myself.

Leche

Leche, my goodness, this is not a personal attack on you. I do not recall labeling you anything, because I wasn't talking about YOU.

I am speaking in generalities. I guess if I am talking about anyone, it would be MYSELF and the evolution of my own thoughts and opinions. I do that in an abstract way, because I think in alot of ways, I am a typical American. I am sure there are many Americans I no way represent, and maybe you are one them. Who cares? We aren't really talking about specific individuals anyway.

By taking it that way you are totally proving my point though. Instead of being able to have a productive, analytical discussion on issues of opression, people get defensive and shut down.

I feel that despite my attempts to articulate an expremely valid perspective, you did not "hear" what I was saying and got caught up in a feeling of needing to defend yourself. (although, no one is attacking you).

that is exactly my point. These are emotional topics, and we (Americans) get stuck.

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 11-17-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 11-17-2000).]

Nicole- before you go to the Museum of Tolerance, call me. We went about two years ago, and I will never go back. If I ever make it to the LA dinner group, we can talk about why, since the written word won't do my opinion justice.

A much more lasting impression, at least on my soul, was left after visiting the Dachau labor camp in Germany. I went in interested in the historian's perspective. I left wondering where my soul and spirit had went. There was a black chasm left after viewing the reality of it all.

I may not be like "most U.S. anglos" but I don't approve of opinions based on hate.

BTW-Leche, I understand where you're coming from. Many times I notice that "white" America seems to be apologizing all the time for things we didn't do. I never owned a slave, never stole land from a native American, etc., but still feel like I need to always apologize.

Continually picking a scab will never allow it to heal...

Oh yeah, as Nicole said, so MM won't kick us off: un poco de español:
-¿no podemos simplemente llevarnos bien?

Oh, and yes, I totally agree with you that ACTIONS, are absolutely the most important part of all of this. What you do, and how your treat other people is essential to having a harmonious society. Treating everyone with dignity as humans is crucial.

I thought we were all gettin along, just debating. I REEEEEEEEEEALLY!!!!! do not mean what I say to offend anyone. I don't think anyone needs to apologize for anything - but I think it is good to look at our own history and present, even outside of our own personal experiences, to understand our own country.

Anyway, I love all of ya. I like the heated debates and the teary reminiscing of Spain. '

That is another thing I loved about being there. I got to know and befriend awesome Americans that I proably never would have otherwise, and I feel that way about this board too. Even if it is all cyber-friends .


[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 11-17-2000).]

Nicole says:
"I have found that in every country, there is always some group that felt to be inferior by the dominant culture, and whether or not people want to, they have all sorts of ideas in their heads about that group."

It is not necessary to be thought of as "inferior." It is only necessary to be thought of as different. And to the extent that peoples of differing ethnicities cling to and amplify their differences, they will continue to be thought of as different.
Cantabene

Yeah. I hear ya, I just don't think there are too many societies that are able to view differences without applying a heirarichal value to those differences.

Then again I am not an expert. There are a lot places I haven't seen and a lot places I have seen that I haven't spent any length of time. so...

[This message has been edited by Nicole (edited 11-17-2000).]

About that teary reminiscing of Spain. Don't get too teary. Spaniards, like humans everywhere, can be as ugly as anyone anywhere. Note the history of their civil war.

Tourists to a country different from their own may be charmed, enchanted, amused by the differences and the pleasant surprises. But live anywhere long enough and you will find that no peoples are devoid of a dark side.

Still, I've observed that what is wrong with Spaniards is common to most peoples. But what is good about them can be unique.
Cantabene



[This message has been edited by cantabene (edited 11-17-2000).]

Wow! What a great discussion. I think everyone who has responded represents differing viewpoints that are worth taking into consideration.

I apologize to Calibasco for the name thing. I am usually pretty good with names, but didn't know if going back and checking would stop my train of thought. I spent a good part of my life in Shoreview, Moundsview, Brooklyn Park, and St. Paul, and now Minneapolis, to answer your question. I have been to White Bear Lake only once and was scared out of my mind when I saw the rows of American Flags and many, many people wearing cowboy hats, but then that is my prejudice working because I was treated somewhat well. Not embraced, but tolerated well, but I think this is a Scandanavian trait towards strangers in general (In General, but not all Scandanavians are like this!) And again, even though we have disagreed on many things before, I have to disagree with you now. The Scandanavians did not "settle" Minnesota. The Native Americans were first, then came the French, then the Scandanavians came. They were simply the only ones who could take the weather. And again, from the beginning, blacks were here in Minnesota. Blacks were here in America who weren't slaves from the very beginning. You did not have to live in a slave-holding state to see blacks. There were free blacks living in Minnesota as well as all of North America. It's just that our perception of history is that there wasn't enough to be historically recorded. This is inaccurate history. But that is another story that I would like to discuss with anyone at any time (Minnesota Historical Society has great information on this).

Leche, thank you for your responses. The fact that you are willing to respond, says that you are willing to discuss and that is a good thing, even if we will probably never come to an agreement about this issue, I respect your passion for the subject. You fight with teeth, as they say, and that is good. But picking good fights is also an admirable skill. The statistics are outweighing us as we speak. In twenty years, there will be more people of color in America than caucasian people, so this will be an argument worth watching. p.s. when I said "please do not try to convince me of that..." I meant precisely those points that I was referring to in that sentence because I had experienced so much to support those arguments I was making. I am always open to discussion, really. I learn all the time in my classes to argue the other person's point first, so I am used to argument. I love learning about other people, even if it kills my darlings (my own prescribed ideals), as they say in the writing world. Please do not feel that I was trying to bait you, call you anything that you are not, or make YOU feel inferior. Quite the contrary, I am only wishing to share my experiences, as I'm certain that you were doing. If I may make a serious (and not in any way meant to be snide) suggestion, you should read Frederick Douglas. He was great at arguments and discussion.

Nicole, I can't tell you how much I respect your viewpoint. Really, even if I were arguing the counterpoint, you are always fair and precise in manner. It is really refreshing and really helps to keep me in line. I feel very strongly about this subject, because I was raised in a self-loathing environment. It has taken me, as a black woman, some twenty-odd years to fight that image of being black and dumb and exotic. I am still working on this image that is projected onto me; so it is nice to have someone come along and tell me to remember my audience and to remember how to speak in a civil and respect tone. Thank you for presenting a template for decent rhetoric (action).

Cantabane (sp?--AGAIN SORRY), I wish that I could say I chose to be different. But I really believe that my environment sculpted me, and not the other way around (see previous comments about Minnesota made earlier). Now it is my responsibility to take those things I have been given and shape my future, which means embracing my difference and everyone else's, and not just tolerating them. I have no fear of being different, but I do have a fear of being killed or hurt or made to feel inferior for being different. What you are essentially saying is that as long as people who are different just begin to act normal, then they won't have any problems. At least that's what I hear, you may not have meant this. But maybe it is the other way around? Maybe it is that as long as people who are normal begin to act different, we will have no problems. And I don't know if it's so much that people of color want to be treated differently, as they do fairly (or equally), just as women did before them and the founding fathers did before them.

What a really interesting and exciting discussion all the way around. I wish there were some place on the web where discussions like this took place all the time. I know that Cafe Utne has a philosophical debate forum link which is said to be the best. I will check it out and hope to "SEE" some of you there.

Sheba says:
"What you are essentially saying is that as long as people who are different just begin to act normal, then they won't have any problems. At least that's what I hear, you may not have meant this."

Let me clarify. It's not about just acting normal. It's about not being aggresively different. I think the harder people work to maintain, preserve and display the idiosyncrasies of their own different cultures, the longer it will take them to be accepted into the mainstream. In other words, in the long run it's more productive to go with the flow. That's just my opinion based on observations over a long lifetime. Feel free to disagree.
Cantabene

I think more than holding on to your culture, it is whether or not on is able to operate successfully within one's own and the dominant culture. And also, whether or not the dominant culture allows the individual culture to exist and develop alongside its own.

I also think that is what makes a place interesting, all those influences. I loved all the celtic influences in Brittany (in France) but there was a time when France was trying to unify the language, and it was typical to ridicule children in the classroom that were overheard speaking Breton. Literally, they were forced to stand in the corner wearing dunce caps. That, to me, promotes a lot of hostility more than enabling a cultural bilingualism.

Spain is a really good example of that. Looking at the Franco years. I also liked Jen's example of the Gypsy's/ I have studied the Gypsy culture a little bit, within the U.S. ( I actually saw some gypsies at the grocery store in LA a couple of days ago), but not enough to really understand it and its role in Spain. I always suspected that it wasn't as cut and dry and some spaniards saw, essentially, they are where they are, and it is their fault.

I volunteered at an orphanage in Chile (quite truly the most depressing thing I have ever seen. We built a playground for the 3-5 years olds. It was the first time they had ever been outside in their lives!!!), and there were some beautiful babies of Gypsy blood. The tias told me that they would never be adopted. A gysy baby had never been adopted due to the prevailing attitude that they are "bad blood." My favorite was little Daniel, who was so happy and smily, even at two/three months. It made me so unbelievably sad that he was going to waste away in that orphange, simply because of his ethnic background. Needless to say, there were also a lot of CHilean babies that don't get adopted - hard to be a guiling and interactive baby when nobody holds you or plays with you. I have digressed, but I hope you see some of what I am trying to say.

PS - my teary remisces of Spain are not because I see it as a pacific utopia, but the little things about the food, people and culture that I liked and miss.

Sheba-I was kidding about the name thing...by the way,

WHERE THE HECK WERE YOU when you THOUGHT you were in White Bear Lake??? Cowboy hats? Was that White Bear Lake, Colorado? I think I've seen as many Swedish flags in WBL as U.S. Flags (sidenote: ALWAYS flying UNDER the U.S. flag...unlike in SoCal...)

Anyway, thanks for the Minnesota History recap...I thought I was back in Mrs. Krebs' sixth-grade class again...

Anyway, as I mentioned, MN has very little black history, not "no" black history. I'm aware of their contributions...you are right when you say that Scandinavians are the only ones who can put up with the weather...as my dad said once, "the weather keeps out the riff-raff". Little-known fact: Minnesota has (or at least had) the greatest diversity of native American tribes in the U.S. Apparently they can stand the cold too.

Anyway, this has been a good discussion, and I think I'm boring everyone with the historical details...my apologies.

Keep the sensible posts coming!

First of all, as I think I've been mention "between lines" by Nicole about the ETA topic. I didn't say Calibasco supported violence but that he believed some of the justifications ETA gives to murder (and that's totally different from supporting them). I know there're two sides in every coin but sometimes it's not fair to put them in the same level. Here we got several "coins": Hitler-Jews; KKK-Blacks; Osama Bin Laden-US Goverment; Oklahoma Bombers-US Goverment; Yemen and American Embassies in Africa bombers- US government. The first part of the coin can say whatever to justify its acts (and they surely believe in what they're saying and in what they're doing) but even if a few people in the second part of the coin had done something wrong sometime in the past, that would never be comparable.

Now, about blacks in Spain. The fact is that they're very few and most of them have come from Africa (in the recent years) running away from difficult social or political situations in their countries so they don't have good academic qualifications and work in the agriculture or construction fields. there're also blacks coming from Latin American countries (mostly Dominicans and Cubans) that have the advantage of the common language to adapt better but again it's a new situation and people that come to Spain don't usually do it in the best conditions (of money, qualifications, etc). I hope things will be ok in a few years with the first generation of black spaniards.

I don't think you'll have problems in Spain (only some stares but because of curiosity), however stupid people can be anywhere.

Finally, I don't agree with the statement that only white people can be racist. Black, asian, arab or gipsy people can be as racist as white people.

Castiza,

Hello and welcome to this conversation. I appreciate your comments.

By the by, do you or anyone else know of where I can find information on the blacks that are in Spain?

There has to be some information on them besides the novels written by James Baldwin and company.

I know that here in Minnesota, when a new culture's demographics grow, there is always something in the paper regarding these new communities.

If anyone knows, please let me know.

P.S. I hope you don't think I meant to say that only white people are racist. What I said was that only those with power can oppress and using black people as an example because that is what I know best. I hope this isn't baiting anyone to believe I mean one specific group of people because all we need to do is open the paper and see that there are various forms of oppression being committed by various groups in power.

Thanks again Castiza for your opinion.

Hi Sheba,
I came back from Spain yesterday and I saw a lot of people from different countries and races. The main idea that I got is that people is getting used to see more diversity, BUT they are not happy at all. It looks like the crime is a little bit higher and they say that most of the criminals are not Spaniards. I lived in Vallecas, (mainly workers live there) and my family is still there, they feel unsafe somehow because the foreigners get together in big groups and they act like "don't look at me or I'll kill you".
My theory is that Spain has a high rate of unemployment but they are letting in many foreigners. Foreigners cannot access to a job unless is a really bad one, but they have to survive and their families too so they choose another way to get money. Now, Spaniards are upset because companies hire foreigners to work in construction and cleaning because it is a lot cheaper and since they are ilegal they don't have to pay taxes. So nobody is happy. My opinion? I don't know, I am upset because I have an uncle who cannot find a job in Spain (even as a construction man) but many foreigners are working, on the other hand I feel that if in your country you don't have food or a way to take care of your family you should try to go to another country.
Let's see whay happens

Nuria, this sounds alot like scapegoating to me. Last year when I was in Madrid I was walking down the Gran Via in Madrid. I saw a man running out of a store and the shopkeeper was chasing him because he had stolen something. He was a Spaniard. The problem with Spain Is an Economic one. It has to change its economic policies if it wants to bring down unemployment. There is alot of promise since it has joined the European Union. I am afraid that people are missing the big picture. Many Immigrants are hardworking people who want to support their families. If you were to look at history the people who are moving to Spain are mostly people of the former colonies. History tells us that these colonial powers raped these lands of their natural resources and that is why many of them are poor. The next time you go to the Palaces in spain look at the gold. It was probably from South America. Why shouldn't these people go to Spain for a better life. As for The africans most of them are educated. The barrier is more due to language. A Study was done a year ago in london that said that a person from Africa that lives in london is 5 times more likely to be a professional than a white londoner.

Hey Matador, take it easy Don't missunderstand what I said. I am not saying ALL thieves are foreigners in Spain and I am not complaining about foreigners working in Spain (at least I didn't mean it). Plus, you are talking about things that happended many years ago, and I don't feel that I have to pay for my great-grand-parents mistakes, if so I guess that American-Indians have the right to take back their land and send white-Americans back to Europe. And blacks should take some thousands of whites and send them to Africa as slaves. And hispanics should go to Spain and take our gold and kill some Spaniards for what we did in their countries. If you want to play the game "payback" you might find yourself living in a cave and hunting your meals
Again, sorry if I didn't explain myself, I am not agaisnt the idea of foreigners working in my country.

I wish someone would take my land and send me back to Spain! I'd gladly go!

Nuria, We may not be able to right the wrongs of the past regarding land but we do have a responsibility to the future. Part of that responsibility is to change our attitude towards other people.

Sheba,

On a different note, I am a black woman from New York and will be traveling alone in Spain for six weeks, starting in January. I would be happy to email you about my experiences. One book that I found truly inspirational about Black women and travel is Elaine Lee's book, "Go Girl", which is a collection of travel narratives by black women that have traveled all over the world, to places such as Japan, France, Korea, Ghana, etc. It is the first book of its kind, and it was so refreshing to read about travel from a Black woman's perpective, as our travel experiences are often radically different from other's experiences, and are never discussed in travel guidebooks. I do not think that there is a story about Spain in the book, there are stories by Black woman that have traveled to France, Yugoslavia, and other places in Europe. I am sure that you will enjoy it.

I have traveled in parts of the Europe and Latin America, and the staring issue that we may face in Spain is something that I have still not gotten used to, but I am going to try to not let it mar my trip or my experience of the country. Good luck on your trip and I wish you the best.

Matador, I couldn't agree more with you! I have the feeling that somehow in the future we will be a big world instead a lot of countries and we would be able to live with different cultures and races and be completely happy.

Sheba- first, my complete sympathy for having to live in Minnesota- I thank god every day my Minnesotan mother married a foreigner who took her away

~

As to traveling, I've found the best approach (but not the easiest) is chalking up negative reactions to sheer ignorance, rather than active racism. If you've done it yourself, you know that if you ever take the time to confront or sit down with the folks who've treated you badly, they often come out and admit that they didn't understand/mean what they did. This is a function of a general human tendency to fear/dislike the unknown, rather than affirmatively act against someone.


~

If this isn't clear, I'm sorry. It's a topic I've dealt with for much of my life, and often the passion of it gets in the way of clarity.

Hola Sheba,
Waiting in the airport for my flight back home from Madrid, I inadvertently heard a long conversation a young black american girl(20's) was having with some people in line about her study abroad experience in Spain. Her face was absolutely glowing when she was saying what a memorable time she had. I never thought of it in racial terms but it was just left an impression on me from how happy she looked.
We had a black man flamenco dancing at the restaurant I was telling you about and he never had anything but good things to say although, once again the issue of race never came up. You should go for it Sheba and have an amazing time. Buena Suerte.

It's been my observation that most of the time people will treat you pretty much the way you treat them.
Cantabene

MarkB-
Are you an anti-Minnite? There's nothing wrong with Minnesota! I've been living in California for five years and in comparison, find the people out here to be much more bigoted than those in Minnesota. Maybe if you have race shoved in your face all the time, the human reaction is to 'resist'. Kind of like growing up and having your parents continually insist you make your bed, etc. That soon becomes the thing you least want to do. It seems to me that the last few posts have shown that although some Spaniards may view blacks as 'differnent', that opinion doesn't necessarily translate into 'disliked'.

Anyway, this isn't www.stickupforMinnesota.com, it's madridman.com, so please accept my apologies for the Minnesota comments...

CaliBasco, you've never met a more Anti-Minnite than me No, seriously, my problems with MN aren't race-based (hey, it isn't anyone's fault they were born someplace almost entirely made up of a single ethnic group (twin cities excepted, of course). My problem is more with the Creator- who in the hell would make a place so damn cold?! It just ain't right.

Sheba- I just returned from Spain, and I'll have to say, based on my conversations and observations, racism isn't going to be a problem there. I wish you well and much luck on your trip there.

ok, how many people clicked on stickupforminnesota.com just to see if it really was a link!?

Calibasco caught me with that trick before on another post. I felt like a total dork, but I've figured out his game. Can't fool me now buddy!

Oh my gosh! (That's a Minnesota thing, doncha know). I've been studying for finals and decided to take a break, maybe check in with my Spanophile friends, and lo and behold! You guys have really been talking. Thanks to everyone for all the comments, reassurances, opinions, disagreements and general all around things said to think about. You know, I get all warm and fuzzy when I read them and I sort of cried from so much...giving.

I am especially interested in flowergirl's trip. Please tell me, flowergirl, all about it when you get back, or if you have internet access, I'd be so happy to receive e-mails from you while you are in Spain.

And Calisbasco...you are so...ay...what do we do with you cuando esta muy loco. You made me laugh, now I must carry you in my heart everywhere.

And yes, MarkB, you are right about Minnesota. The other morning I woke up to the determinedly cheerful weather man telling me that it was going to be -32 windchill and a high of 0 degrees. Needless to say, I wish someone would take away my land too and send me to Spain.

Sheba-
Welcome "back". I think of all my Minnesota friends every morning when I log on to start the day and I have www.wcco.com (this is a real link, Nicole :P) as my homepage...11º degrees and a winter storm warning today! Stay warm, Sheba, with thoughts of the tideless Mediterranean lapping on the shores of Denia, while sipping a drink and soaking in the warm "Spanish Riviera" sun...aaahhh!

Wow, I can't believe I didn't know about this site before I went to Spain and now that I've come back home I see it! Aargh!

Anyway, for Sheba, I wanted to give you my first-hand experiences about being black in Spain. I am a 23-year-old black woman who just ended a three-month internship in Madrid. I went to work everyday and lived with a Spanish woman who took in people from all over the world. (by the way, she has a contract with NYU so I lived with two students in that NYU in Madrid program.)

I was worried, like you, that there might be a certain unique set of problems that I would face being black in Spain. It is true that there isn't a large minority (of any type) population in Madrid, but you will see various people of all races and colors there.

Everyone is right about the staring, but my two white male roommates said they got stares for wearing baggy jeans and sweatshirts instead of the typical sweater/tight pants combo Spanish men seem to prefer . I think the Spanish just stare at something that's different. It's not hatred or dislike.

This is not to say that the society is perfect. Spain's unemployment level is growing, and some blame "foreigners" of all types for causing this. You might hear certain people blaming Latin Americans or Moroccans for crime, etc., but that seems to be true in all countries dealing with an influx of newcomers (Switzerland, for example. I was just there...)

However, no one follows you around in stores, looks at you oddly if you walk into a bar/club/social gathering, cab drivers do stop for you and everyone is very friendly. The fact that I was black was never mentioned by any of the Spaniards I had regular contact with. I was seen more as an American and was seen as having more in common with my white American roommates than the African immigrant down the street. (which is true) This was unlike in the U.S., where people seem to lump people together by race only, instead of class, background, geographical area, etc... (which can often be more determinant of a person's background than skin color!)

The key to survival (no matter what race you are) is... speak Spanish!!! I went there knowing some Spanish, so I survived in the beginning, and then when I learned more I was able to talk with the people. I got many compliments for "speaking great Spanish for an American," which I guess was a compliment.

As for men... I must say, I got more dates and attracted more interest than I ever did in the USA! Sure, I wondered if it was a black fetish thing, but I honestly don't think so in most cases. I just don't think race was an issue for them like it might have been at home in the USA. In fact, I might be back in Spain for a week next summer as I have been invited by a relative of the lady of the house to visit Las Canarias... yes, he offered to pay for my ticket.

Enjoy yourself Sheba! We can e-mail personally if you have further questions. I've only been back for 2 weeks, so my memories of Spain are still fresh and I'd love to share!

Love,
Bunny

NURIA, LECHE AND SEVILLE
YOU SEE, BUNNY'S WHITE FRIEND WAS WEARING BAGGY PANTS. NURIA WOULD YOU BE SCARED OF HIM?

P.S.

I also went to Lisbon for a weekend with a blond, blue-eyed white female friend and we loved it. Yes, it is a bit less developed than Spain, France, etc., but we found the people to be very friendly and GENUINELY excited to meet Americans. They said they learned English in school but never got to use it.

I was nervous at first about people approaching us like this, but they really just wanted to talk. I think everyone can have good or bad experiences in a city/country/etc., but if you do want to go to Portugal and have the opportunity, go for it!!!!

Oh, and there are tons of black people in Portugal, most from places like Angola and Mozambique, the former Portuguese colonies in Africa. (just keeping with the theme of the topic!)

Bunny,
I am glad you found MM's site and gladly shared your experience "Black in Spain". My daughter who is mixed black is in Madrid doing a semester and just like you basically have the same experiences. I totaly agreed with you "unlike in the U.S., where people seem to lump people together by race only, instead of class, background, geographical area, etc... (which can often be more determinant of a person's background than skin color!)". She found the Spaniards very accepting of her and the willingness to know who is she.
Happy Holidays & a Prosperous New Year!

Dear Mclarke,

I have read many of your posts on this site and am happy for you and your daughter! My parents came to visit me in Spain for Thanksgiving and had a wonderful time. Even though they spoke no Spanish and had to have me do all the talking/translating for them! It was also great that they got to go to my house and meet the senora and my roommates. Now they really understand what a study-abroad program is like.

I wish I could have been able to meet your daughter. There might have only been 2-3 degrees of separation between us, as many Americans I met knew other Americans in various study abroad programs over there.

I am glad to be back in the U.S., just because I miss some of the "creature comforts" I'm used to. But I also miss the hustle and bustle of the Madrid streets and walking down the street at midnight if I pleased!

Perhaps I'll go back for a longer period in the future, but since I'm now done with school, I have to settle down and get a job! But in two years or so, I think I might do some evaluations...

In the meantime, I look forward to going to the Canary Islands this summer and I hope to also get in a trip to Pais Vasco and maybe Valencia... I'll keep you all posted!

Happy holidays and have fun in Spain! I can't wait to hear your stories!

to the junior member MATADOR: I think you may have missed the point.

Leche

Bunny,

Yes, my daughter also misses some of the "creature comforts" that she is used to "like long hot showers". I am glad that your parents had the opportunity to visit you in Spain and experience new things with you. I am so excited to experience Spain. My daughter recently called to let me know that my calendar for Madrid is already booked. Let us know of your Canary Island Experience.

Cheers!

MATADOR, give me a break. What I've done to you?

[This message has been edited by Nuria (edited 12-28-2000).]

Bunny- Receiving the compliment "You speak Spanish well for an American" should be treated as a great compliment. This is especially so since they've heard Leche and I speak Spanish so well, and therefore have such a great meter-stick against which they measure.


Does anyone else smell something "raro"?

Wow! what a very interesting topic, it took me a while to read through many of the comments. I am a Black female. I traveled to Spain in July and also was a victim of the staring game. For a while all of the stares annoyed me, but after a while I was used to it. I never really felt that people stared at me in a negative sense, but more so in fascination. Everywhere that we traveled, men always commented us on our beauty. It was amazing to me. At times I even wondered if I was famous. When we rode the metro, all of the people on the train would stop what they were doing to stare at us. It was unbelivable! Of couse, the reception that we received from the men was always "Guapa.. Bonita, etc", the women on the other hand, just stared. as i mentioned earlier, i just became accustomed to it. I enjoyed my visit in Madrid. I had the best time ever! I am looking forward to my next trip in July.

Sheba,

Greetings, this is mclarke. I am in Madrid now. Blacks are all over Madrid. I was surprised to see diversity in Madrid.
Wherever my daughter and I went, there always black people. You will be comfortable in Madrid. There is a Dominican enclave in Madrid. It is so fun to visit.

Even in Escorial, the mountain town, we saw blacks. Being black in Madrid is nothing new. We saw mixed couple - black/spaniard.
Take care!

Hello MCClarke

I'm so glad to hear that you are finally in Madrid. I'm so excited for you! And thank you for your kind words of encouragement. You are so funny--I couldn't help smiling at your innocent, blunt way of speaking. Have a good time MC and let us all know what you have experienced in Spain.

Hey Sheba... good to have you back. When do you leave for Spain?

Hello Bunny,

I leave for Spain sometime in June or July. It's been a long time planning because of money issues and trying to get my school to pay for it (which they don't want to) and trying to get time off from work (you'd think the place would crash without me). But I've decided that even if all those other things don't fall in line, I'm going to go to Spain no matter what. Are you going back soon, yourself?

This is going to be a bit of a superficial post...but on the topic of how black people are perceived in Spain as per my perception is this:
A very good, artist friend of mine from NYC (who is also black) stayed with me in Spain for 2 weeks. When we'd walk down the street together men would stare (of course)and they'd also shout "Hola Bella Negra!" or something to that effect, but in a friendly way. She got a big kick out of it. When she traveled alone, down to Sevilla she said the reception she received was incredible. They loved her and people were constantly coming up to her and talking to her and welcoming her to SPain. Overall, she said she had an incredible experience in SPain.

tracy

Hello, folks, I'm back. My Spain experience is so unforgetable and will always be a memory to cherish especially when my golden years will soon come (is it 65?). Here are my impressions how blacks are perceived in the following cities my daughter and I visited:

1. Madrid - Blacks are basically all over Madrid and comes in various parts of the globe: Africa, U.S.A., Cuba, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Mexico and Columbia, etc. Of course, you will get the look if you are attractive. I have been mistaken as a Cuban, Domincan, Ecuadorian, Mexican and Columbia. What is amusing is when my daughter would say that I am from the Philippines but live in the U.S.A and I speak little Spanish. They find my backgroun puzzling.

2. Cordoba - The only black we saw was at the flee market - a young boy selling bags and probably he is from Africa. We decided to explore the center of town, and still no blacks or Dominicans, Ecuadorian looking folks. The people in Cordoba were friendly and helpful. A 40-year old man went out of his way to show us how to get to the center of town.

3. Granada - yes in Granada there lots of diversity -- very similar to Madrid. You will see all shades of black -- dark - light, etc. Lots of mixed couple in the bars.

4. Algeciras - lots of Moroccans. Other groups you find in Madrid we somehow did not encounter.

5. La Linea - Similar to Cordoba.

6. Cadiz - Similar to Cordoba

7. Sevilla - Similar to Cordoba

One thing that I can say is that being black and speaking Castillan is an asset. My 20-year old daughter was so amazing, she speaks Spanish like a Madrilena and that was such an attraction wherever we went. Whenever she would be asked where is she from, she always says of course in Spanish "I live in Madrid with pause, then she would be asked again, but where are you really from, then my daughter answers, I am from the U.S.A. We would laughed so much whenever folks would like to know where is from because being black and say you are from Madrid is sort of unbelievable. The color of our skin was not a factor at all in the cities we visited in Spain. And I think because of that, the locals went out of their way to be extra helpful. The staring think is a natural thing to do. I too stared at people.

Wow, it sounds like you had a great time in Spain, Mclarke! My mother came to visit me, but only for four days so we didn't have the chance to experience together all the places that you saw.

I agree with you mostly about your descriptions of different areas of Spain. I felt stared at a lot in Cordoba, but had to remind myself it wasn't a "racist" thing. The people were great though. Didn't make it to Cadiz or some of the other places you mentioned.

Granada was more diverse and Barcelona was incredibly multicultural. I really liked Barcelona in general!

Thanks again for your stories! I'm glad you were able to have that kind of experience with your daughter. My mom wants to go back to Spain with me one day -- hopefully it will be within a few years!

Hey Sheba... great to hear you're going to Spain this summer. Hope you end up with a great family. I lived with some NYU students in Madrid so if you have any questions about that program, maybe I can ask my friends for you.

Vacation-time willing (I'm out of school now and in the real world!), I'll be back in Spain this summer to visit the Canary Islands, Galicia and Asturias and Madrid again, for a day or so, with a Spanish friend I met during my stay there this fall.
I'll make sure to tell everyone how that goes!

Bunny
I told my daughter that probably I was a Spaniard in myh other life. I really felt at home in all the cities we visited. I hope you will have the chance to visit Spain with your mother and have different amusing experiences.
Do tell us about your Spain summer experience. Well, my next trip with my daughter is 2003. We were told to do northern Spain in the summer.

Hasta luego - When my daughter says this this phrase, she shounds these words with a cute curling sound.

Wow! The Queen has opened the pandora's box. It's great to read all of you. I will be starting a new in Spain within the next two months. Any advice on where I can obtain relatively inexpensive accommodations while I become more familiar with what Spain has to offer and what I can contribute as an artist of color there? Ideally I'd like to first experience Madrid, Barcelona, then make my way to the coast. Your responses are greatly appreciated.

Greetings from Barcelona. I am traveling in the middle of my six week trip to Spain. So far I have only been to Madrid, Toledo and Barcelona. Overall, I found Madrid to be interesting and some of the people very friendly, but my friend and I (she is Chinese American and I am African-American) did experience a few weird racial incidents in Madrid. A few times, people were incredibly hostile to us and in Toledo, a waiter basically refused to serve us. It was weird and disappointing. There are a lot of immigrants from Latin America, Africa, Cuba, China and other places in Madrid, and I am not sure if the country has really adapted yet. The headline in one of the Spanish newspapers today was about immigration and apparently it spoke about how Spaniards really are not concerned about the needs of immigrants that are moving to their country. It is a bit sad.

Overall, Barcelona is a much more beautful city, the people are more relaxed and much friendlier. I would recommend Barcelona highly.

That being said, I think that overall Spain is beautiful and I would encourage everyone to come. However, unfortunately, my personal experience here was not without racial incident, but hopefully yours will be.

Although this is not in relation to being Black in Spain, I have a comment on the influx of Chinese immigrants in Sevilla.
During the Feria de Abril, los Gitanos have traditionally been the flower sellers. Apparently (according to a Sevillano friend) many Chinese immigrants have come over the last several years and have set up shop in the flower business during Feria. I guess this is really hurting the already economically disadvantaged Gitanos. I can only see immigration, legal or otherwise, increasing in the next years, so ready or not, Spain better prepare!

About immigration to Spain. Multiculturism is proving to be not entirely successful here in the USA. If immigration continues unabated in Spain, at what point will Spain no longer be Spain? A sad loss.
Cantabene

Deleting double post.

[This message has been edited by cantabene (edited 01-28-2001).]

I should hope that they don't plan on reconstructing the old walls around the cities to keep people out!

Maybe that is in fact something that could happen...
Actually, there was a case in the Czech republic where a village planned to build a wall so that the population not be "bothered" by the Gypsy population. As far as I recall, the plans were not carried out in view of massive protests including the Czech parliament. An alarming sign, anyhow.

Do you know what is really sad? I was watching TVE International and I saw a bunch of ilegal inmigrants DEMANDING our goverment to give them papers and jobs. If the goverment denied the papers they will lock theirselves and starve to death. There are not jobs for averybody in Spain, what right do they have to demand papers and jobs? They are ILEGAL. As soon as they get papers the Spaniards have to pay for their Social Security, Health, unemployment... Is that fair?
But, I have to say that inmigration is world problem, the rich countries have exploted the poor countries and have permitted the corrupt goverments to bring their countries to the missery, now the people that live in those countries have to look for a place to live and work. Everybody loses thatnks to the greed

Dear Amoraah,

I can't help with Barcelona, but if you can wait until you get to Madrid, there is a place called Forocio and it's on 6 Calle Mayor. It is an organization that offers services for international people and Spaniards who want to meet them (no it's not a dating service!). There are often postings of apartments for rent or people looking for roommates. If you don't mind living with 5 or 6 other people and not have a lot of privacy, it could be a good deal. Plus you probably won't be at home a lot anyway!

Forocio's web site is www.forocio.com.

Good luck.

Bunny

I always hear people say that uncontrolled immigration will destroy a country's culture and traditions. What evidence do you have, Cantabene, to say that multiculturalism isn't working well in the USA? The US is a NATION of immigrants! But every group that comes over always wants to keep future groups from doing the same thing, as if they have some exclusive right to live in the USA and no one else does! Nearly all societies today are mixtures -- there are few "pure", unmixed societies, save maybe Iceland.

Some of our best and brightest are immigrants or children of immigrants. And they are totally "American", despite their heritage in another country. If a country, whether it be the USA or Spain, decides to welcome immigrants and integrate them into their society, the immigrants will adopt the traditions of their new country as well as enrich their new country with customs from their old country.

I think the US is a much better country because of the contributions of Europeans, Africans (most of whom were forced immigrants), Asians, Central/South Americans, etc. The Stars and Stripes are American, just as the local pizza joint and Chinese take-out place are American! I don't think you can say the country is in decline because of immigration. We became stronger AFTER the big immigrant waves of the early 1900s!

And what is really "Spanish"? Isn't Spain a mix of Christian, Muslim and some Jewish traditions from the different people who lived in the country for centuries? Maybe if the current Spanish government did more to integrate and welcome immigrants and offer more opportunities for legal immigration, the newcomers would feel that they are a part of Spanish society and enrich Spain with their traditions and culture, while adopting customs that we today consider "Spanish".

I agree with you Nuria that immigration is a world issue and that countries can't take in every person fleeing other countries. And poor countries have a responsibility to improve the lives of their people so they don't feel forced to leave the country.

However, one reason some these countries are in such bad shape is because the richer nations supported dictators in Africa, Asia and Latin America for political gain or stilted these countries' natural growth through colonization. So in a way, it is the responsibility of richer nations to take in some of these people, because they contributed to the situations that made the poor countries such horrible places to be.

By scapegoating immigrants and blaming them for a nation's problems, we all suffer.

Bunny

Bunny,

You are on track on your comments regarding immigration issues in Spain. As my daughter said, Spain is not ready for this sudden influx of immigrants from Ecuador, Africa, Columbia, Cuba and Asians -- Chinese. Remember it took the U.S.A. more than 200 years to deal with immigration and to date, is still dealing with immigration. Also, Spain is now enjoying influx of tourists from Asia. Some of my daughter's Spanish friends are studying tourism and also becoming multi-lingual. They, too realized that Spain is having a tourism boom!

One fact that should be noted is that Spain, along with much of the rest of Europe, is seeing a precipitous drop in birthrates. Without many immigrants in the coming decades, Spain will not be able to function. Not enough people will work to support growing numbers of retirees. Thanks to immigration in the US, this will not be a problem here. And in Spain it is only a "problem" if the racist view is taken that something will be lost in becoming a more multi-cultural nation.

A true judge of a person is how they treat those worse off. And few are worse off than a man, carrying his only clothes, landing on a Spanish beach. Even today, I'm sure the jobs that many of the current immigrants do are jobs that most Spanish people do not want. Frankly, I've been a little shocked at some of the attitudes expressed on this thread.

caminante

While I was in Spain staying at my daughter's landlady, her cleaning lady is from Columbia. I asked her questions through my daugher as my interpreter, what she thinks of Spain. She has lived in Madrid for over 5 years and she hopes her children will get a good education. She cleans the landlady's aparment 3 times and week and feels lucky that she has apartments to clean six days a week. I hope that Spain will one day be like the U.S.A. where the so-called American dream (Spanish Dreaam) could also happen.

The simple truth is that without an immigrant workforce alot would not get done. Spaniards find many of the jobs immigrants do demeaning/beneath them. Its time that the law is changed so that immigrants can enter LEGALLY into Spain and not have to come in like thieves in the night. It is unfair to assume that immigrants are there to take the jobs of the Spanish when as I said earlier, many do not even want those jobs.
My parents were Spanish immigrants to the States. What would have become of them if they had been treated the same way? In order to progress Spain must assimilate the immigrant population. Immigration is a fact of life.

HELLO EVERYONE! Ahhh...the discussion is still going. It makes my heart tingle just thinking about the thread that is forming.

And welcome back MCClarke. It's good to hear that your trip went well. Thank you very much on the update on what being black in Spain was like for your daughter. Your rating system by city was eye-opening. I hope you get to go back soon.

And thanks to everyone who suggested Barcelona. Of course, of course, I will go there as well! But Madrid...there is something pulling me to Madrid.

I am right now planning my trip out with my school for sometime in June or July. I'm very excited and can't wait now that I have been given so much good advice.

Amoraah--It was good to hear from you about your (upcoming?) trip. Please let us all know how it went and what things you did, places you went to while there.

Bunny--such intelligence, I, as everyone must know by now am a bleeding heart radical , so you're preaching to the converted here. Thanks for your comments about immigration.

And I just want everyone to know that if I could immigrate to Spain, I would.

So....did Sheba ever make it to Spain? Sheba, you out there? Anyone know? Maybe she loved it so much she stayed

I see black people in Madrid everyday. I think they are becoming more and more accepted. I work with a group of Black Americans here and have not heard of any problems other than solicitors at their door thinking they are the Maid or hired help, but that also happens to the hispanic(puerto Rican, Mexican and central american) Americans as well. The Spaniards are beginning to understand a bit of "Cultural diversity";.