Bullfighting? No, Thanks

Maybe most of you are interested (or just curious) about bullfighting. But in Spain the interest is less and less every day. Only a few among young people like bullfighting (in the cities, of course; in villages tradition is still strong). Cataluña goverment is thinking about forbid "las corridas", something that already happens in Canarias.

Surprised?

PADM we have had this discussion many times on this message board . I love the bullfights , I go many times , and know , for example , that during the Feria de San Isidro .. 22,000 people are at the plaza de Toros ( Ventas ) EVERY day for 2 weeks ! Many are very young . Some are just children . And everybody loves it ! They will never forbid bullfights in Madrid .. And Cataluña will have a big "fight" to stop the Corridas . I hope , with all my heart , that the bullfights will continue and I will look forward to seeing them next year . The spectacle of the bullfight is amazing .. The toreros with their "Trajes de Luces " , the picadores , los caballos . los toros . I know that the bulls will be killed . It´s part of the soul of Spain ... El Alma de España .

PADM:

I am very interested in learning about what the young people think of bullfighting. I am a US Spanish teacher and my students are fascinated with the subject. Like Steve, I also enjoy the bullfight. The last time I went (June 21, 2009) the stadium seemed more empty than full and I was surrounded by a lot of foreigners. Is it becoming more of a tourist event? How do you, as a Spaniard feel about it? Is it worth it to have the bullfight if the main crowd is tourists?

And Steve, a question for you: If bullfighting ever became something that only tourists attended, would you still support it or do you think it should also be supported by Spaniards? (I know that it is a tradition that hopefully won't fade away, but I'm just asking)

Going back to the popular San Isidro festival ... I could not buy tickets .. Everything was taken by the "abonos" .. season tickets .. Totally Spanish . I agree the tourists will be there at other times .. many of them .. but go to any magazine kiosk and you can buy the bullfighting magazines . It´s still immensely popular here in Madrid !
I support the bullfights because it´s a tradition of Spain . But I will support it and fight for it even if the Spanish government tryed to ban it ( unlikely ).

Sorry, I'm new in this forum and I didn't notice you have had this discussion before. Anyway...

Steve, 22.000 people is not a big number. Yes, there's still a great support for bullfighting, but it's decreasing day by day, specially in the cities, and specially among the youngs. There is not a great organizated movement against the misnamed "fiesta", people attitude is more like indifference. And I hope that spanish soul will be more than an animal torture.

Teachertraveller, I used to like bullfighting a long ago. My family has got a great relationship with the Bull's world (?). I wasn't an expert, but I liked it. Gradually I realised that bullfighting is not anything but torture; and torture can't be justified by any matter of aesthetics or tradition. This is the point of view of many of the people I know. Bullfighting will survive for a while, supported by the traditional part of society, but it will slowly fade away. I wish.

And thank you for your answers.

No worries PADM . As you can see there are very opposite and sometimes strong views on this subject . But just one point and then I´ll stop talking ! 22,000 is the maximum capacity of ventas . 14 days of that is over 300,000 people ! And I could not get a ticket ! But this is an emotive subject so now I will keep quiet .

Like PADM says there isn’t a big anti movement more an indifference. The majority of Spanish who go to bullfights only go during their local fiesta, and don’t bother with it the rest of the year, as can be seen by the half empty Las Ventas the rest of the temporada.
The Catalan anti movement , I think was started as a more of a political thing , seeing the corridas as a Spanish thing and they like to think of themselves as different from Spain . But if you goto the French part of Catalunya , they are very proud of their bullfighting tradition , and place a big importance on the picadors , where as in some Spanish bullrings the picadors can be booed straight away.
The bull is killed in the ring in front of your eyes using acient methods . But the average bull killed in the ring will have lived to 4 to 5 years . A hell of a lot more than the beef cattle you are eating . 10 times better than the factory farmed food, which have no life and then death, probably not a pleasant one .
Steve San Isidro lasts more like a month rather than a fortnight .

He,he,he, good answer, Steve. And, please, keep talking, this is funny.

But , Joe , do thay have a fight every day for that whole month ? I only seem to remember a 2 week long period of fights every day ..... I just know it was impossible to get tickets , and that when I was in the queue at Ventas there were many guys infront of me buying 100 tickets at a time . Only the grados were available to us mere mortals !!!

This year they started with 4 corridas from the 30th of april till the 4th of May for the 2nd of may celebrations , then san Isidro started in the 7th of may for 25 nights finishing on the 31st of may .Then there was 6 nights of corridas from the 2nd of June for the feria del Anivesario , which started in 2006 for the 75th anniversary and they have kept going .

I never really got the impression that packed bullfight events consisted mostly of tourists. I'm referring to the kind of tourists who know nothing about it and just want to go to say they were there. Many of them don't understand it and leave early.

There are many other foreigners attending who are intensely interested and spend a lot of money to come to Spain to the ferias sometimes every year and others whenever they can afford it. It's not a cheap vacation.

Those feria tickets are very expensive and scarce. I'd hardly consider that an indication that bullfighting is facing extinction. I found the same situation when attending the feria in Nimes, France. Getting tickets was a mob scene, and you had to stand in line for hours and pay a lot of money for whatever was left. There is intense aficion in southern France, and that feria is great.

The half filled plazas outside of feria time indicate that many people believe that the best most exciting performances are to be seen at the important ferias in the first class plazas. Some matadors save their best efforts for those ferias and just go through the motions at other times. Success during the ferias insures them of lucrative bookings for the rest of the season. The corridas in the provinces are of less career importance to a matador. The public know this and tend to be most interested in attending the feria events. That's why they're expensive and sold out.

As for young people not being interested, most upcoming matadors and novilleros are young boys who are intensely interested. For every one who makes it, there are many others who must be intensely interested that don't make it.

A few years back, I happened to be staying in the same hotel in Alicante that El Juli and Jesulin were staying in. Trust me, young girls are interested in bullfighting. There were thousands of them surrounding the place waiting for a glimpse of them.

Front cover of the Spanish edition of Vanity Fair ( December ) is the incredibly handsome " Cayetano " and there are about 6 pages devoted to him with great photos , including him getting dressed before the bullfight . My flatmate and I Saw Cayetano in a very expensive shop near where I live in Madrid . We had to buzz to go in and pretended to look at shirts ( 400 Euros ) whilst getting a glimpse of the great man !
Cayetano was also featured in the American edition of Vogue .. an amazing photo shoot .
Donna , I´ll try and find the name of the documentary about the boys ( now famous toreros ) ... It´s called " Maletilla" ... Really excellent . p.s. Thanks Joe ... I´ve watched it quite a few times , especially because of Cesar Jíminez ... The first bullfighter I ever saw !!

No worries Steve .
Ive never been to a bullfight in France , but would love to see one there in one of the Roman arenas . Nimes bullring

Steve, what shop did you see Cayetano in?

Eskimo, you've got to see a bullfight at the Nimes arena. It's an experience.

Donna , its one on the bucket list .
Cayetano confirmed his alternativa in Mexico yesterday .

I don´t remember te name of the shop , just that it was Calle Jorge Juan .

I try to make you understand that an important (and increasing) part of the Spanish doesn't care anything about bullfighting. You can see this as something typical, but I consider it as cruelty, a shame for us. Obviously I've failed.

"If bullfighting is culture, cannibalism is gastronomy" (M. Vicent)

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Si-los-tor...56333207?v=info

PADM

You have not failed. I think a lot of people see bullfighting as cruelty. Here in the US, I have to be careful about who I tell about my interest in bullfighting because many people here see it as animal cruelty. You have a unique perspective because you are Spanish and have grown up in Spain all your life. You can see how you and your friends have changed their opinions about the bullfight.

It does seem like there is still a strong following in Spain, though.

The argument about animal cruelty can be made for any inhumane treatment of animals, including those we eat.

This is a great topic, so I hope we can keep it up!

a great topic, indeed.

i keep trying to convince myself i will watch at least ONE bullfight while living in madrid just for the experience, but i highly doubt i will. i understand bullfighting is a long & loved [by some] tradition in the spanish & other cultures.. just not one that interests me. plus, i don't think i could handle watching. its very sad to me. but like it's been said, people can apply the argument of animal cruelty to almost anything involving animals, including our food. i love reading about people's different opinions; it gives me a more open mind.

Hey Vanbags,

You will be able to watch bullfighting on tv, I think. That way, you can see what's going on, then turn it off!

PADM .. I also disagree that your views are failing to be heard on this message board . Plenty of people , Spanish , American , British etc .. share your views about the so-called cruelty . But you should use the discussion to put forward your opinions and NOT necessarily change those who enjoy the bullfight . And I think you do that calmly
It´s the same as religion in many ways .. If I have Jehovah´s witnesses ( Testigos de Jehovah ) or the mormons etc.. come to my door I am always polite !.. I´ll listen to their argument .. And some aspects of their argument I will agree with maybe , even if I do not agree totally with their religion . It´s good to talk AND to listen , but there are always going to be opposing arguments .
I love the bullfight but am still interested in hearing your side of the story .
And what is your family connection with the bullfight / toros ?
Steve

This IS an excellent topic and I'm glad that everyone has discussed it maturely, calmly, and respectful to other opinions. Thanks for that!!

The bullfights I've attended have easily had more Spaniards than non-Spaniards in attendance. There are complete sections of people/Spaniards whom you see in the same seats for every corrida de toros. Other sections have a higher percentage of foreigners. Sometimes you do have more than half the arena empty, though.

Saludos, MadridMan

Well MM .. we all know about the nightmare noisy guy in Tendido 7 .. hahahaha .. And if you get a seat up there ( in Ventas -Plaza de Toros de Madrid ) as i´ve done once it´ll be totally Castizo . Guys drinking their whiskey ( they have a guy .. with a big white moustache who sells it in the bullring "¡ Whiskey , Whiskey , hay Whiskey ! He shouts ) If you´re in the middle of a row you pass your money to your neigbouring spectators and the whiskey and your change come to you in the same way ... It´s amazing . And then the castizo guys and the real fans of the toros ( very conservative ) will be smoking their puros ( big cigars ) . Tendido 7 was a real experience of the die-hard , lifetime followers of the bullfight . Oh , and I do make it almost a tradition that in the 20 ( approximate ) bullfights i´ve been to I always order a whisky ( and it´s Scotch , Joe , but blended .. not a single malt unfortunately ) . I have smoked ( and I´m not a smoker ) the odd cigar .. very sweet .. much nicer than cigarettes ... but I can´t bear the smoke in my lungs ( though I have nothing against other people enjoying a smoke ! )

PADM , ive been an aficionado since I was a small boy living in Madrid . If we had stayed on in Spain I think I would have done my best to go to an Escula taurina . I returned to Scotland and didnt see a corrida for 20 years . the only real thing I heard about bullfighting in that time that my 2 heros as a kid where killed , Paquirri and Yiyo , and that was only a couple of years after I had left Spain .
When I returned to madrid 20 years later having lived in animal loving UK , I went to a corrida not knowing if i would still enjoy it , but the passion returned and it will never leave me .
When I was living in Madrid I hung about with expats and Spainsh kids but I was the only one who wanted to be a bullfighter .
Steve the cigar smell is something ive always associated with the bullfight and when i smelt one back home that is the memories it brought back to me .

Well , Joe , next time you´re over ( and I know you have family responsibilities now .. I hope the bairn´s doing well ! ) , maybe we could catch a bullfight and even enjoy a whiskey and cigar . ( I´m sure I saw much better whiskey in the bars around the outer ring ! ). MM might be on for that too ? And maybe some Rabo de Toro , Rioja , Chiprones etc afterward on C/Alcalá .

Last time I had a whisky in Madrid , it was an Oban , and I had visted the distellery only a few months before . I asked the barmaid to pour me one , she poured I said i was Scotsman keep pouring ( Like a Spanish nip isnt big enough) I eneded up steaming , thank god I didnt have far to get home .
There is corridas at Vistalegre In February if you are needing your fix , with the last 2 being very attractive .
I am coming To Spain in February but will miss them .

Yes, Tendido 7 is special, he, he, he, nothing is enough for that people (they consider themselves as the real "aficionados")...Once I dared to shake my white handkerchief sitting among them... uff, I still have nightmares.

I can feel the beauty of bullfighting. I remember Joselito in Las Ventas, or José Tomás,...wow, they´re special, but beauty cannot justified anything, and etc, etc... he, he, he, I won't repeat it again.

I just want to thank you all for your opinions. It's very difficult to find people whom you can discuss with.

So, keep on it (?).

Lots of times I went to a bullfight alone having bought a scalper ticket for a San Isidro feria corrida, and I was seated in the middle of about 20 of those cigar and whiskey old men. They actually treated me very well explaining endlessly their opinions about what was going on. I wish I had a picture of myself sitting with them. It would be funny.

On the other hand, there was a rather obnoxious Englishman another time who looked me up, down and sideways and said "women don't go to bullfights alone". That was 20 years ago. I'm sure all the El Juli female fans changed that situation.

I had a look around the Museo Taurino in Madrid on my recent visit. I hadn't been in there for awile, and they rearranged it with a lot of new displays. The traje de luces that El Yiyo died in has been put on display since I was last there with all the blood still on the shirt. It was a shock to see it, because I'm sure I saw him perform in that same black and gold suit. Not on the day he died, but another time not long before. The suit looked brand new when I saw him, and it looked brand new displayed at the museum.

I also stayed up until 5 in the morning watching an endless TV program about the life of Jesulin - all his women etc. It was like a real soap opera, but I couldn't stop watching. The program went on for hours.

I agree with MadridMan that this has been a good discussion. Most discussions on this subject get out of control pretty quickly.

There certainly is a segment of the Spanish population that has no interest in bullfighting, but there are also segments of the American population that have no interest in baseball or rap music, but these things are extremely popular. Everybody can't like everything.

Joselito is one guy I wished I had seen in the flesh instead of just on video .
You used to be able to go and watch classes pratica's at Batan the Madrid bullfighting school , and it was funny seeing all the young girls tarted up to the nines hoping to bag a young torero .

Steve just came across that Fran goes to Santos , so i wouldnt be surprised if thats were Cayetano goes as well .

I'm sure he could afford to go to all the stores - even Loewe.

I've seen Joselito a lot of times even when he was very young.

Why is he not around much anymore? Did he retire?

Donna ... that store is amazing .. And I will get the name for you . He was trying on shoes and boots .. I couldn´t see a pair of shoes for less than 500 Euros .. Since he´s an immensely rich guy .. I would assume he would be paying something like 1000 Euros for his shoes . With his black hair and green eyes he really stands out from the crowd . I saw an interview with him yesterday on TVE1 ( national TV ) and he seems an immensely nice person ... very sincere and honest .

Yes Donna he is retired now . I think he may be an artistic director for Cesar Jiminez and a ganadero too .

At what age does a bullfighter retire? How many years does a bullfighting career last, provided you don't take "early retirement"?

This may be of interest....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/6043972/British-matador-returns-to-bull-ring-aged-67.html

I think around the mid 30's would be about average . Some do go on longer Espla is retiring this year and is 51 and was still performing at a top level . Ortega Cano is 55 an says he is retiring next year , but I think he should have retired a few years ago .
Even though matadors retire from bullfighting a lot of them still make the odd appearance at festivals etc .

Are you sure those two are 51 and 55? I remember years ago they seemed much older than I am, and now they're suddenly a few years younger? I guess men lie about their ages too.

What about Antonete? He was still active probably in his 70s. They say he needed the money.

Isn't Cayetano the brother of Francisco Rivera Ordonez? Were both parents the same?

Thats just what I read online Donna , there is a few torero's who have lost a year or 2 .
Yes Fran and Cayetano have the same Parents, Their mother was Carmen Ordonez was Antonio Ordonez daughter and thier Father was the Paquirri who was killed by a bull in 1984 .

Curro Romero made it to age 66.

Don't forget the great uncle of the Ordonez brothers was Luis Miguel Dominguin and the great grandfather was Cayetano "Nino de la Palma" Ordonez, who Hemingway wrote about in Death in the Afternoon and as Pedro Romero in The Sun Also Rises.

I came across an interesting article in an old issue of Sports Illustrated. It was about an American College student who had a chance encounter with the elder Ordonez while an exchange student in Madrid.

SI Article

Wow that´s a dramatic story !

Thanks for the link Mongo , very interesting .
I was in a Bar off of Bravo Murillo and it had a great photo of Fran as a kid with his grandad Antonio Ordonez and Miguel Bose who was Dominguin's son .

Saturday activists posed naked in the Puerta del Sol, in abuse against animals, including bullfighting, was very cold to be naked.Is fun" puerta del sol"

Don´t think I would be wanting to parade my "goods" naked on a cold day for any cause ! Us men would understand that I´m sure !

Well, Steve, in the cold, at least they wouldn't mistake you for someone selling tickets to 'el gordo' (sorry, if that was too off-colour!)

Hahahahahahaha . Now back to bullfighting hehehehehehehe !

When he was alive, the elder Ordonez was often seen around the plaza in Ronda. I understand he had some kind of business interest there. I know lots of people who claimed to have seen him there.

Well, while I respect that it is a very old Spanish tradition, I hate bullfighting and think that it is barbaric. I wouldn't mind if it was more evenly balanced, but honestly, after the picadors have done their job (on their heavily padded horses) the bull is already dying, so really, the toreador doesn't have to do very much as by the time he gets there the bull is already on its way out, and very weak. I went once when I was younger, but never again. I can't even bear to watch it on the TV.

I don't like fox hunting, dog fighting, cock fighting or any other kind of blood "sport" either.

ha, just realised that my signature is quite appropriate for this topic

I hear what you´re saying SallyAnne , but the toreros are part of the fight , even before the picadores have come in , and they´re on hand throughout the bullfight . The main fight , I agree , is after the picadores and the bandilleros , but the toreros put themselves clearly in the line of danger . And , as has been mentioned before , toreros have been killed or severely injured by the bull . Yes , the bull will always die , but the torero has to be brave to face the bull .The bull is weakened before the torero takes centre stage , but it´s not "weak" .. It´s still very strong and agressive . I´ve faced a small bull and it was scary .. They are bred to be agressive and fast .. That they definitely are !

Steve is right , the bull is weakend but it never stops being dangerous . For proof you just have to look at Yiyo , he had placed the sword which the bull would die from , but the bull still had enough strength to put his horn through his shoulder blade and through his heart , you can see it on youtube if you want too .
A novierllo I know says " nothing is easy in front of a 500 kilo animal "

I think the barbarism issue is what makes it appealing to a certain segment of society. Probably the same would happen if there were men out there, real Gladiators fighting to the death. You'd probably have the stands full of screaming fans and protesters outside.

Saludos, MadridMan

I have been reading but not commenting, its a debate every day and now in some parts like Catalunya is going to the chamber for a decision to continue or not. Its a shame, it is a Spanish tradition, and you feel Spanish ,you will keep it. As I will.
Once a young rajonero myself at Ventas, and love it. NIce to read so many knowledgable folks about corridas and toreros here, always a pleasure.

I agree with Steve Robinson - I, too, love the bullfights. That said, the art, philosophy & appreciation of bullfighting is a part of Spain's culture & history.

Like all things when viewed in economic reality - if there is no paying audience over a period of time, it will die out (sadly - in my estimation). That economic reality needs no help from groups wanting to ban bullfighting ...

Well following on from MM´s comment¨: though it´s not to the death ... this " cage fighting " phenomenon that started in the States where they really beat the Hell out of each other is an example of the , como se dice , basic bloodlust of many people that´s existed for centuries and especially going back to the gladiator contests in the Roman Empire . I´m not supporting the gladiator contests , just making the point that there´s always been an interest fom the beginning of time to see or experience these sort of contests and that , I´m sure , is where the bullfight derives from .

Though , quickly , I would also add that witch hunts , burning at the stake , etc have also been supported by society in the past and i´d certainly not want to see those reinstated .

By the way . Anybody who has access to the "Times" ( UK ) magazine today , it has a Fantastic 10 page article about an English torero . Really great piece . I`m taking it back to Madrid . His name is Alexander Fiske-Harrison .

Cheers Steve .Alexander has his own blog .
You can read the times article here.

Do you know him Joe ( personally ) ? It might be a nice idea to get in contact with this guy and in a gospel sense " spread the word " ! I´d be interested in doing that .. MM ... what do you think ? It´s contraversial but relevant ,

No Steve I dont know him , just found his blog through one site or another .

I enjoyed reading that Steve - interesting find .. thanks! And I'm a closet Giles Coren fan too :-)

new children's series in the TVE against bullfighting http://www.elpais.com/articulo/gente/corridas/toros/injustas/elpepugen/20100218elpepuage_1/Tes
a good reason against animal abuse
outside bullfighting!!

And yet many children are still attending La Escuela Taurina here in Madrid , and many other places in España because they want to be toreros . They see it as like being a fireman or a soldier etc.. A brave thing to do .

I think, I'll not convince, you're a big fan,oK !!enjoy bullfights!!

Don´t worry Jazz . In English we say " One man´s meat is another man´s poison" .. We all have different opinions ... but we can still be friends .

Of course Steve,! un saludo!

My God, I've created a monster, uahahaha (scary laughs)

60 Minutes is devoting the whole hour to Francisco and Cayetano Ordonez tonight.

AGAIN? 60-Minutes did a segment on them in 2008 called "Blood Brothers". See YouTube video HERE. Their English was/is very very good as they were interviewed in 2008 in English. Seems we talked about it here on the message board.

I've searched YouTube today, the day after 60minutes broadcasts, and could only find THIS promotional clip, the special called the same as that of 2008, "Blood Brothers", and from the clip they used some interview footage from the 2008 interview. This time around, they dedicated the entire hour program to the brother bullfighters. That's really something!

Saludos, MadridMan

You can watch the whole thing on cbs.com. They took the "Blood Brothers" footage and combined it with a piece they did on Francisco a few years ago. Then they added a bit of Jose Tomas.

I think Bob Simon is a bit of an aficionado.

Unfortunately, they still don't have it listed on the "60 Minutes" page of CBS.com. The most recent full-episode they have is for the end of February. Hopefully they'll have it available in the next few days. I'd imagine you could eventually watch it on the 60 Minutes Videos page HERE.

Saludos, MadridMan

I posted a link to the full thing a few weeks ago.

Thanks, eskimo joe! So why is 60 Minutes just now airing it? (last night) That's odd.

finally saw the video, great work, and it is nice people like CBS is doing it, will get more recognition for what it is an art and sacre Spanish tradition.
thanks for the video eskimo joe!

Art? Sacred tradition?

yes it is deep rooted Spanish, even thus nowdays the modernists want to forget everything. TRaditions stays with you forever.

Demonstration against bullfighting, March 28 Sunday in Madrid from Plaza de villa 12h. to Puerta del Sol 14h.!greetings!
___________________________
Not time to Waste

they are doing it anyway, its their right under a democracy. The bulls will be happy to see the crowd ::)

Demonstrating is a right exercised here in Spain by almost everyone and I'm happy to see it. Europeans are amazed by the lack of (interest in) demonstrating in other parts of the world.

Saludos, MadridMan

well, I'll go alone, my wife will not come, she's fan of bullfighting, we have our differences ...

When I lived in Madrid, Bravo Murillo seemed to be closed to traffic every other week for some march or other

Since the King Juan Carlos himself a few days ago , at the bullring in Sevilla , gave his complete "apoyo" support for the bullfight I don´t think we´ll see them disappearing soon ! .
But , yes , people have the right to their opinions .. And Europeans are very demonstrative . Long live democracy !

well Esperanza Aguirre did was able to name the corridas of a National content and as a cultural heritage ,which it is. So a few ecolos demonstrated, so be it,they spoked. We will speak louder...
Long live Spain!!!and its traditions.

Olé !

Ive been to a few corridas with the king there, both in his official capacity, and as an aficionado sitting in the crowd.
I may try and pop over for Daniel Luques Encorrona next week

José Tomas, very seriously, by a bull in Mexico.
This is bullfighting!!!
luck José!

Apparently he has had 19 litres of plasma and 8 litres of blood . The Dr asked the public in the plaza for blood , he is stable at the moment.

great public and best of luck to José Tomàs

Friday morning, at 12 , there is a protest against bullfighting in Plaza de las Ventas,...200 bulls to be tortured and killed in San Isidro.....

Over 660000 satisfied aficionados and a lot of happy meat eaters , never mind the people watching it on television .

Protesting/Demonstration is one of democracy's most valuable rights. Everyone deserves to be heard - or at least deserves to express oneself. I don't care how sensitive the topic. I'm going to protest against the use of plastic/petroleum products in packaging. Who's with me?! (yeah, I didn't think so).

The San Isidro bullfights are televised nightly on Canal+ but not on free/public TV this year (as far as I've seen).

Saludos, MadridMan

¿Cuánto cuesta la entrada a Las Ventas?
Las entradas para la plaza de Madrid abarcan cualquier posibilidad económica. Desde 2,20 euros se puede asistir a una novillada con picadores.

Interesting idea !!!!!!! This is from Las Ventas official web site !

I thought the cheapest tickets have always been about that Steve .

You´re right Joe . I misunderstood the word "asistir" which whilst it does mean "assist with" or "help" .. also means "to be present at " . I thought maybe they were offering the chance to help with the bullfight .
I tried to get tickets for the Cayetano fight on June 2nd .. so far they tell me there´s no chance .. So now I´m looking to buy tickets for June 5th . They´re not on sale yet .

They should be on sale Steve , I went on line and they had them for sale.
If you want to buy from a tout for the 2nd, the best guy to see has his own table in Vina P's , he is a big guy in a suit , his table is up the back of the resturant , just ask any of the waiters . He will charge 2-3 times face value ( cheap buy tout standards) if its rained off he will give you your money back .
Another option is to head up to the bullring and wait till after the clarins for the start of the corrida , then the touts will start getting nervous about not getting any money , then you can start haggling with them .

Julio Aparicio suffers a very serious goring in Las Ventas horrible photos ...

JAzz .. I´ve been watching this on TV . Completely horrific . The " cuerno" ( horn )going through his throat and into his mouth .. really shocking to see .

Yup. I saw it too. Really horrific stuff. That's one dangerous event. No denying it. I'd be surprised, however, that the "muy grave" claim is accurate. At worst he'll lose several teeth and will need reconstructive surgery on his tongue. Seemed to totally miss his jugular vein. I'll bet he won't be back in the ring anytime soon - probably never. Dare I post this nasty photo?

Luck, Julio Aparicio, I'm very impressed

Scary and a very lucky man . Bullfughter are mental its in thier nature and usually come back sooner than you would think

PARTE MÉDICO: Julio Aparicio ha sufrido herida por asta de toro en región submandibular con una trayectoria ascendente que penetra en cavidad bucal, atraviesa la lengua y alcanza el paladar produciendo fractura del maxilar superior. Pronóstico muy grave que le impide continuar la lidia. Fdo.: Dr. García Padrós.

This is from the Ventas ( bullring ) website .

Can you say.... "puré de patatas"? That'll - sadly - be his main course for awhile.

But is it just me who thinks the "muy grave" designation means "life threatening"? Or, maybe better translated, it should be "very serious".(?) I mean, sure, it's terrible to have a bull's horn pierced through your lower jaw, through your teeth, and out your mouth but I doubt anyone was in risk of dying because of it. Sometimes I think they over-emphasize or embellish the severity of injuries so it seems more spectacular when they return, making them seem more god-like to the public. I do wish him the best and a speedy recovery.

Saludos, MadridMan

I think " muy grave " .. means "very serious" . There´s no doubt that his injuries justify that description . I would be interested , for example , to see how the press reported "Yiyo's" injury and eventual death in the eighties .... What language they used .

I think it just means very serious , as you see it a lot on the bullfighting websites , and if you goto the infirmary at Las Ventas they alway put up a hand written description of the goring and injury .
The horn went through Yiyos heart , so he died almost instantly.

I just got back from Ventas ( Metro ) . If anybody had any doubts about the popularity of bullfighting you should have seen the crowds !!!! I , almost literally , had to fight through the crowds outside the bullring and up Alcalá to walk back home . Definitely a full house this evening ! And I only heard Spanish spoken ... I guess the abonos got all the tickets !

And there wasnt even any big names last night.

"muy grave" can literally means very serious ,dangerous like in intensive care of a hospital.
I am glad to read the Ventas was full still these days. It will hard to erase this tradition I am sure.